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View Full Version : Chavez commited fraud, he sold us to american



LeninistaRevolucionario
19th August 2004, 15:12
Let me explain you the procediments of this referendum:

This referendum was made with computer machines, each electoral building had 3 tables (mesas):

Table number #1: for the people whose ID number started at 01 and ended at 33.

Table #2: from 34 to 66.

Table #3: from 67 to 99.

Each table had 3 books (each book had 1 machine to vote):

-Book #1: for people whose ID number started on 01 and ended on 11.

-Book #2: from 12 to 22.

-Book #3: from 23 to 33.

And the question was:

"Do you want to revocate Chavez" (the real question was longer im just resuming it)

1) No (Pro Chavez) 2) Yes (against Chavez)

Then you had to click the screen for the option you wanted.

After you click in that option whether its YES or NO, a paper would come out of the machine with the confirmation of your choose, then you have to introduce that paper in a box. (many people complained that after they voted YES, the paper would come out as a NO)

The machine would then send the information that X number of voters chose NO and X number of voters chose YES.

This information was recopiled in a paper called "ACTA" (dont know the word in english) with the results.

Ok everything there so far is fine, no problem thats the procediment of the election, now below im gonna explain you how the fraud was commited.

------------------------------------------

The fraud was commited in the machine´s SOFTWARE which was manipulated by Chavez this way:

In many electoral buildings it was reported that the books of each Tables (mesas) there was a strange coincidence that the option YES had a limit:

For example:



Table #1:

-Book #1: Had 440 electors.

In the machine of this Book:

320 people voted for NO and 120 voted for YES

Ok fine, but i dont see any fraud here, you would say...

-Book #2: Had 530 electors.

In the machine of this Book:

410 people voted for NO and 120 voted for YES (coincidence? probably)

Once again the YES option in this machine had 120, coincidence? maybe...

-Book #3: Had 250 electors.

In the machine of this Book:

130 people voted for NO and (guess what) 120 voted for YES.

What a coincidence that in the three machines of this Table the option YES ended up at 120. The probabilities for this to happen in each of the three machines of this Table is very low, but who knows coincidences happens.



Table #2:

Book #1: From 510 electors, the option NO had 400 and the option YES had 110.

Book #2: From 425 electors, the option NO had 315 and the option YES had 110

Book #3: From 476 electors, the option NO had 366 and the option YES had 110.



Table #3:

Similar thing happened here. The option YES had 108 in the three machines and the rest were NO.

The results from each Table would be registered in the "ACTAS" (where the results from the machines were recopiled)

These similar patter was reported in many election buildings in many states.



So how can this happen? you would ask.

Easily, the Software of EACH machine was manipulated so that the option YES would have a limit, so every time the option YES reached its limit, the next people who voted YES, the machine would either change the vote to NO or nule it.

Then why dont you count the confirmation papers that were introduced in the boxes? you would ask.

This only happened in like 100 Tables out of 20.000, the government knew the international observers were going to count them in these 100 Tables so he didnt mess with these. Note that the fraud didnt happen in the 100% of the machines, but i would dare to say that in most of them.

But why arent all the boxes from all the 20.000 Tables counted vote by vote?

Because the CNE (Consejo Nacional Electoral, the ones who take of the election) have 5 members, 3 of them are puppets of Chavez, so basically this is controlled by Chavez too, and they are refusing to allow the opposition and other observers to count the boxes.

Where are these boxes with the real votes?

These boxes are in custody of Pro-Chavez Elitist Generals (who btw are getting rich with the money they are stealing from the Venezuelan people) and they dont want to let them be counted, the worst thing is that these elitist Generals are actually getting rid of the papers in the boxes.

Then why did the Carter Organization and the Organization of American States (OAE) approved the referendum results?

Because they only received the "ACTAS" (see above for the meaning of it) with the already fraudulent results. So they basically received the results from the fraudulent machines. They didnt actually checked 99% of the boxes nor the 99% of the machines, they just received the fraudulent "ACTAS" and they just approved Chavez victory.

Why would these Organizations approve the results without having a completely research on the election?

In the case of the OAE, rumors have been spread that it seems that they have received orders from Washington to accept Chavez victory without a real investigation because many oil transnationals have already contracts and trade business with Chavez and also they dont want an unstable Venezuela because if Chavez losses, his represive militias and Bolivarian Circles (who btw betrayed the cause by defending the wealthy elite leadership who dont want Chavez to leave because they are getting rich while the population gets more poor thanks to Chavez) would start sabotaging and creating havok and unstability. If this happens the Oil prices would get higher than they are right now because of Bush pathetic and imperialist war on Iraq. Also many Latin American countries are getting cheap Oil from Chavez (and instead of investing the income he receives from the oil revenues in jobs and food for the people, instead he spends it in wearing expensive clothes, rebuilding the presidential palace, building expensive private jets, yatchs, etc), so both the USA and Latin American countries want Chavez to stay as long and he provides cheap Oil. Socialist cause? who cares about it when the ones with power are getting rich at the cost of the suffering of the Venezuelan people.

In other words, economic interests from both USA and the Latin American countries want Chavez to stay.

Why did i vote against Chavez being a Leninist?

Because Chavez betrayed the cause, he and his elite instead of helping the workers they exploit them, instead of providing food he and his elite put expensive prices and taxes making it difficult for the common people to feed themselves adecuately, instead of nationalizing the oil industry he and his elite are selling it to american oil industries and making deals with Bush and the imperialists to provide cheap and secure oil supplies to them so the warmonger can keep his immoral war on iraq killing children and innocent people. Because Bush knows that the middle east is unstable (thanks to his criminal war) and the oil prices are high, so he needs Chavez´s oil. Chavez instead of refusing to help Bush by providing him oil for his criminal war, instead he chooses to make juicy deals with chevron, texaco, shell, etc.

This is why i voted against Chavez, many revolutionary groups and movements have also opposed him because he has betrayed us. I know that the opposition leaders, are corrupts and immoral too, but Chavez doesnt care about the people, all he cares about is his wallet and his expensive clothes.

Maybe you are asking yourselves why would i vote against chavez and in favor of the opposition?

Sometimes we have to join a lesser devil to destroy a greater devil, for example when the Soviets joined the Americans and British to fight against the facists.

Chavez is a hypocrite and a bastard who wants to control all and exploit the workers and the people. Chavez´s arrival to power was just a change of one wealthy elite for another.

also check this link: http://www.iht.com/articles/534518.html

fernando
19th August 2004, 15:23
But erm...didnt the US elections of 2000 also have questionable things...liekthe Florida victory, or those voting things that it was very unclear if you voted for Gore or some small party

Sabocat
19th August 2004, 15:53
Sometimes we have to join a lesser devil to destroy a greater devil, for example when the Soviets joined the Americans and British to fight against the facists.

So a group completely backed and financed by the U.S. is a lesser devil? You criticize Chavez for selling oil to American corporations, but yet wants to keep the oil industry nationalized, using profits for medical and food supplies.

The opposition wants to privatize the oil industry, obviously meaning that they have no intention of helping the poor. Just their pockets.

While I agree that Chavez is no Marxist, I find it impossible to believe that the working class in Venezuela would be better off with the opposition.

Also, soon after the election, it was rumored that the opposition had strategically placed people at the polling stations to boost the exit poll status of the opposition. This theory of vote tampering sounds like nothing more than oppostion propaganda.

The Internation Herald Tribune is nothing but a pro-business bourgeois rag, and I'm surprised any Marxist-Leninist would give it any credence at all.

antieverything
19th August 2004, 17:27
:lol:

First off...the entire premise of this topic is inconcievable!

1. Why would a corporation with close ties to the US political machine throw the vote to Chavez? (Since it would take someone with inside access to do so)

2. Why would Chavez perpetrate fraud in an election he was certain to win unless the other side commited fraud?

3. If massive fraud was perpetrated, why is someone who can't spell or write in paragraphs the first person I've heard this from?

4. If massive fraud was perpetrated, why do exit polls conducted by the Organization of American States and the Carter Center match the results?

5. If massive fraud was perpetrated, why do the results closely match opinion polls taken before the election?

Scottish_Militant
19th August 2004, 18:47
the "new guy" is some opposition supporter or bitter right winger trying to take the piss

Severian
19th August 2004, 19:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 09:12 AM
Note that the fraud didnt happen in the 100% of the machines, but i would dare to say that in most of them.
You say that without proving it - in fact all your claims are unsupported. Your link is to an opinion piece.



Why would these Organizations approve the results without having a completely research on the election?

In the case of the OAE, rumors have been spread that it seems that they have received orders from Washington to accept Chavez victory without a real investigation because many oil transnationals have already contracts and trade business with Chavez and also they dont want an unstable Venezuela

And you choose to rely on "rumors"?

It's likely that many in the U.S. ruling class prefer to avoid instability if they have little prospect of immediately overthrowing Chavez. There's actual evidence of that, in the behavior of the markets, etc.

But there's even more evidence that they prefer the opposition to Chavez, and so it's more likely that the Carter Center, OAS, etc would be biased towards the opposition than towards Chavez.


because if Chavez losses, his represive militias and Bolivarian Circles (who btw betrayed the cause by defending the wealthy elite leadership who dont want Chavez to leave because they are getting rich while the population gets more poor thanks to Chavez)

ANd not say...thanks to capitalism? Everything you say about Chavez here would be even more true of the opposition. "Economic interests" would favor the opposition, and the opposition has proved at least as capable of disrupting the flow of oil as deposed Chavistas might hypothetically.



Why did i vote against Chavez being a Leninist?

Because Chavez betrayed the cause,

Huh? How can a bourgeois nationalist betray the socialist cause? You have to be a socialist before you can betray socialism.


he and his elite instead of helping the workers they exploit them, instead of providing food he and his elite put expensive prices and taxes making it difficult for the common people to feed themselves adecuately, instead of nationalizing the oil industry

Huh? The oil industry was already nationalized before Chavez came in, so why are you denouncing him for failing to nationalize it?


Chavez instead of refusing to help Bush by providing him oil for his criminal war, instead he chooses to make juicy deals with chevron, texaco, shell, etc.

This is a weak criticism; Venezuela has little choice but to sell oil to the U.S. And certainly the opposition would do so. If Chavez has made deals privatizing oil reserves and industry, details please.

Chavez is a bourgeois nationalist who deserves no political confidence; but to vote "yes" in this referendum - the opposition's referendum - would mean supporting the pro-imperialist opposition which is worse than Chavez on every point you mention.

Finally, I doubt that many if any Venezuelan leftist groups have taken this position. If anything, the tendency of most is towards excessive confidence in Chavez.

Probably this is a troll which I've paid more attention than it deserves.

Hiero
20th August 2004, 11:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 03:23 PM
But erm...didnt the US elections of 2000 also have questionable things...liekthe Florida victory, or those voting things that it was very unclear if you voted for Gore or some small party
That's irelevant.

Louis Pio
20th August 2004, 11:16
Hilarious, a "leninist" claiming Chavez commited fraud by refering to a known bourgious newspaper. Either this guy is a supporter of the looney sect bandera rossa who works with the opposition or he is rightwing claiming to be leninist. Either way it's not very serious.

Louis Pio
20th August 2004, 11:20
Venezuelan Opposition Rejects Audit of Referendum Vote

Thursday, Aug 19, 2004 Print format
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By: Jonah Gindin – Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, August 19, 2004— In response to Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez Frías’ victory in last Sunday’s referendum, opposition leaders are refusing to accept the results of Venezuela’s National Electoral Council (CNE), despite the fact that they have been corroborated by the Carter Center, the Organization of American States (OAS), and by independent international observers.

On Monday afternoon, former US-President Jimmy Carter, head of the Carter Center, and OAS Secretary General Cesar Gaviria held a press conference at which they stated that they had received absolutely no indications of fraud. They expressed complete confidence in the results published by the CNE, and noted that the quick-counts that both organizations conducted at several voting stations provided results that matched the CNE’s results almost exactly.

Furthermore, Carter noted that quick-counts conducted by opposition group Súmate also corresponded very closely to CNE figures. Although, that did not prevent Súmate from expressing that they have “serious doubts” with respect to the official results, or from releasing exit polls giving the opposition a 60%-40% victory that directly contradicted their own quick-counts.

In order to address opposition concerns of possible fraud, the Carter Center and OAS suggested in a press conference yesterday that the CNE conduct an additional audit, to which the CNE agreed. Carter noted that “it is possible that there may be small discrepancies [between paper ballots printed upon voting, and the electronic votes], but not sufficient to change the outcome of the referendum.”

Opposition allegations of fraud have so far been based on the suggestion that there was a ‘ceiling’ on ‘Yes’ votes, resulting in all ‘Yes’ votes beyond the ceiling being changed to ‘No’ votes by some internal mechanism in the voting machines. This suggestion has been contested by the CNE and international observers on several grounds.

According to Carter, the possibility of fraud using ceilings can be addressed by comparing the ballots printed out upon each vote, thus, his suggestion that an audit be conducted at 150 voting centers across the country.

In a press conference this afternoon, electoral council board member Jorge Rodriguez contested the oppositions’ ‘proof’ of the existence of ceilings. Rodriguez pointed out that similarities in results between voting machines in the same voting center are not only statistically possible, but highly probably. It also occurred with ‘Yes’ votes. The explanation, according to Rodriguez, is a simple matter of statistics, in that each voting machine registered a random sample of voters at that particular voting center, so that each machine should reflect the general voting trend at the center as a whole.

As an example, Rodriguez compared results from two voting tables at a voting center in the wealthy Caracas neighbourhood of El Cafetal. Both voting tables provided almost the exact same results: table 1 resulted in No: 8.3%, Si: ,91.7%; and table 2 in No: 8.5%, Si: 91.5%.

While Jorge Rodriguez was making these comments, Enrique Mendoza, spokesman for the opposition umbrella-group the Democratic Coordinator, held a press conference in which he called on “all representatives of the opposition not to participate in the audit.” His justification was the charge that the National Guard who have been guarding the paper ballots may have conspired with the government (and the CNE, and the Carter Center, and the OAS) to alter or replace ballots.

Rodriguez responded to the suggestion that the opposition would not participate in the audit saying, “we are not conducting this audit for any political actors, but for the peace and tranquility of the Venezuelan people.”

“We are also doing this for the employees of the CNE,” he continued, “who merit much better treatment than they have received from the private media.” Rodriguez stated plainly that if the opposition does not wish to participate in the audit, the CNE, along with the Carter Center and OAS will conduct the audit without them.

Maripili Hernández, spokewoman for the committee in charge of the government’s referendum campaign, responded to the opposition’s position in harsh terms.

“These people have been saying that there’s been a fraud since Sunday,” noted Hernández, “and it is important to clarify that to commit a fraud with these characteristics is no small thing, one would have to have committed an immense fraud to affect the referendum by two million votes.”

Hernández accused the opposition leaders of acting irresponsibly for not accepting the referendum results when they have been so universally accepted by international organizations, governments, and observers.

from http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1345

Rene Descartes
20th August 2004, 11:21
I am surprised that Chavez is even still around. Surely someone wants him ousted by a coup or dead by assassination.

dadachango69
20th August 2004, 11:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 01:27 PM
:lol:

First off...the entire premise of this topic is inconcievable!

1. Why would a corporation with close ties to the US political machine throw the vote to Chavez? (Since it would take someone with inside access to do so)

2. Why would Chavez perpetrate fraud in an election he was certain to win unless the other side commited fraud?

3. If massive fraud was perpetrated, why is someone who can't spell or write in paragraphs the first person I've heard this from?

4. If massive fraud was perpetrated, why do exit polls conducted by the Organization of American States and the Carter Center match the results?

5. If massive fraud was perpetrated, why do the results closely match opinion polls taken before the election?
you know what they say... don't believe the hype... in this day and age... folks get their info from an unreliable source then try to be a propaganda-spreader... sigh... where are the moderators here?

dadachango69
20th August 2004, 11:53
L.R. < VOTE "YES"&#33;&#33; BY PRESSING &#036;&#036;&#036;