SWP democratic? an important point

[Kez]

http://sub.spc.org/speakerscorner/131003.ram

have a listen to this, go to 18 minutes, unless u wanna hear Lindsey whine.

[il Commie]

And if can't hear this because of my computer, what's the event?

[YKTMX]

:lol: How does this prove that the SWP is "undemocratic". First of all, it wasn't even an SWP meeting! Second, they let the guy speak without shouting him down or anything, whereas he was quite happy to try and use the "he who shouts loudest wins" style of debate.

His proposal for direct votes of thousands of people at demo's to decide action is an absolute joke and it seems he was just there for a fight. We don't just "vote" on where we want to march and who we want to speak at our meeting, it will be decided by a commitee who represent a wide range of views.

I've been to an SWP conference and everything is voted on and discussed. The membership directly decide the policies of the party, can you say that about your own bloody party you sectarian tosser?

[Kez]

a bit tense arent we....surely if this was unfounded then you wouldnt have been so bothered.

anyway, we know SWP controlled STW so...it is a fair reflection of their methods and how undemocratic they are.

The call for votes is an important one, as it shows the direect action of the masses, not a handful of petit bourgeoise bohemian bellends who know whats good for the movement.

Remind me again what the fuck happeneed to the 2,000,000 demonstrators, how much did the larger workers movement gain from the SWP control of the anti-war coalition?

As for my own organisation, ive openly discussed and arguedd against certain positions and have been defeated in a democratic manner, the point is its democratic.

Look you ultra-left windbag, i couldnt give a fuck, the more the SWP continues like this, the quicker they split, the quicker the movement gets rid of the biggest cancer on the Left, that of the "socialist" "workers" party.

[il Commie]

Kez, wasn't your organization the one to split?

http://trotskyist.hp.ms/

[YKTMX]

a bit tense arent we....surely if this was unfounded then you wouldnt have been so bothered.

No, it's just that threads like this aren't uncommon from you. And I find Labour Party members like you detestable. Sorry.


anyway, we know SWP controlled STW so...it is a fair reflection of their methods and how undemocratic they are.

Yes. We organised the biggest anti-war protest in history while your party was holding hands with Bush and killing little girls in Bagdhad. Sorry.


The call for votes is an important one, as it shows the direect action of the masses, not a handful of petit bourgeoise bohemian bellends who know whats good for the movement

You don't know anything about the SWP leadership apart from what you've heard from your little pathetic sect leaders.


Remind me again what the fuck happeneed to the 2,000,000 demonstrators, how much did the larger workers movement gain from the SWP control of the anti-war coalition?

That's an issue worth debating but you're attempt to point at the "nasty SWP" and shout "it was the, so it was" is risible.


As for my own organisation, ive openly discussed and arguedd against certain positions and have been defeated in a democratic manner, the point is its democratic.

Oh, go on getting gubbed the rest of your political life and then become a reactionry Investment banker.


Look you ultra-left windbag

Oh, ultra-left!? That's hits right where it hurts.


, i couldnt give a fuck, the more the SWP continues like this, the quicker they split, the quicker the movement gets rid of the biggest cancer on the Left, that of the "socialist" "workers" party.

Man, a labour member calling the SWP a "cancer of the left". The cheek is almost comical. You don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the SWP (or anything else), so why don't you just get on with your pathetic "reclaim the labour party" project and leave us socialists to it.

[il Commie]

Let's turn this thread into something positive:

YouKnowTheyMurderedX, could you tell me something about your party the SWP? It's political program? It's foreign relations? Does it have something to do with the american SWP?

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 19 2004, 01:00 AM
Let's turn this thread into something positive:

YouKnowTheyMurderedX, could you tell me something about your party the SWP? It's political program? It's foreign relations? Does it have something to do with the american SWP?
Certainly comrade. The SWP is a revolutionary socialist party that was formed by prominent Marxist Tony Cliff, in the 70's I believe. It's ideological background is Trotskyist, indeed Cliff was integral to the analyses of Russia as State Capitalist and wrote several acclaimed biographies of Lev.

We do not believe, as both the orthodoyx Trotskyists and the Stalinists believe that Soviet Russia, or Cuba, or China is any form of socialism. We rejected the "deformed workers state" argument, seeing these societies as merely variations on capitalism.

The party is now the biggest far left party in Britain with about 8,000 members (though some claim it is less) and has links with the International Socialist Tendency.

The American SWP has no links to my knowledge.

In my opinion, the SWP are a fantastically dynamic and organised party who you should consider joining if you have any real interest in changing the world. Or you could become demoralised and join the Labour Party like our comrade here.

[il Commie]

In my opinion, the SWP are a fantastically dynamic and organised party who you should consider joining if you have any real interest in changing the world. Or you could become demoralised and join the Labour Party like our comrade here.

You're the second guy this week to offer me to join his party across several seas :) .

I'm from Israel, I just want to get to know the parties in the world communist movment.


BTW, I disagree with your opinion about the USSR, Cuba and China.

[Daymare17]

YKTMX, you forget one thing.

Heiko asked the meeting to raise their hands, if they were in favour of not having a vote on whether there should be votes at the demonstration. The SWP members at the meeting did not. They ignored this proposal!!

Very democratic! An example to follow!

It seems to me that most SWPers (at least the leaders) are spineless demoralized middle class windbags with no honour or conscience not to mention idea of how to build a revolutionary party.

[YKTMX]

Heiko asked the meeting to raise their hands, if they were in favour of not having a vote on whether there should be votes at the demonstration. The SWP members at the meeting did not. They ignored this proposal!!

I'm sure if the proposal had had significant enough support the people at the meeting would have made sure that they were allowed to vote on it. It is after all a "free country" and people could have just raised their hand. Whether the STWC would have recognised this is of course another matter.


It seems to me that most SWPers (at least the leaders) are spineless demoralized middle class windbags with no honour or conscience not to mention idea of how to build a revolutionary party.

The members of the CC make modest money for the work they do and are very hardworking and committed people, I can assure you of that. They also happen to have built one of the bigger far left parties in Europe.

[socialistfuture]

kez - have u ever been to a SWP meeting?

[Kez]

yes, i was a member a couple of years ago. I left. Now i have no regrets and have joined a revolutionary organisation, not a bunch of middle class tossers who thing the world centres around them.

[il Commie]

Kez. A group from your american section left your organization because they said there's no democracy inside the CMI. Why do you ignore this and just point the blaming finger on other organizations?

[BOZG]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 20 2004, 12:09 AM
Kez. A group from your american section left your organization because they said there's no democracy inside the CMI. Why do you ignore this and just point the blaming finger on other organizations?
I thought you were joining their Israeli section?

[il Commie]

Now where have you got that crazy idea?

[BOZG]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 20 2004, 12:14 AM
Now where have you got that crazy idea?
Something you said about the CMI in that past...I read over what you said again. Just a misconception, sorry.

[il Commie]

Could you share with me the misleading quote? I'm curiouse...

[BOZG]

Originally posted by il [email protected] 20 2004, 12:28 AM
Could you share with me the misleading quote? I'm curiouse...

A small organization who ignores the democratic rights of the palestinians and who ignores the existing tools of the workers is doomed to end up in the trash can of history. The CMI for instance also have a small organization in Israel, and they joined the ICP, because they join the existing workers' anti-zionist party to influence it in a revolutionary direction. In revolution times, the CMI who joined the ICP could represent a revolutionary program in it and maybe even split and form a new and revolutionary workers' party (like the Bolsheviks splited from the SD). And CWI? They will end up with their 40 members, yelling "revolution! revolution!". That what Lenin wrote about in his book "Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder ".

Here (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22972&st=0&hl=sect)

I remember you saying something about the CMI which seemed to support them, I just remembered incorrectly what you said.

[Louis Pio]

Considering TLL I wouldn't take them serious (the people which site you posted)
1. look at their site¨
2. Consider why they didn't feel the need to take this further, none of them could defend why they didn't bring it up at an international meeting. In my oppinion they seems very suspicious.
http://discussion.newyouth.com/showthread....=&threadid=1199 (http://discussion.newyouth.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1199)

Considering the SWP they seems quite undemocratic. They have a top leadership not even elected (like Lindsey German) and their international is run by the british SWP, not by all of their sections together. That's why they are suffering splits all the time (USA, Ireland etc)

[il Commie]

Oh yes... those days when I agreed with the CMI.... Thank you for giving me a nostalgic wave! ;)