Altruism

[DReaver13]

Is it the intention or the result which makes an act altrusitic? Does having altrusitic intentions (e.g. sharing your food with someone with the specific intention of helping THEM) make the whole thing altruistic, regardless of any positive consequences for the initiator of the act? Or, does an act become non-altrusitic because of the good feelings gained as a result?

Objectivism sees altruism as evil and destructive, but does it actually exist? If all humans helped eachother and generated mutual happiness would this be altruism? Since this is the basis of communistic thought I thought I would attempt to clarify this.

I don't see how me giving my clothes to a charity shop is self-destructive. I don't see giving food to starving people as wrong or evil. If they can't acquire what they need themselves, what's wrong with donating my surplus?

The west generates disgusting amounts of surplus which is wasted and never used. Cupboards and refrigerators full of unused food, never-worn clothing, even parts of houses which go relatively unused. Is donating this surplus, so that less fortunate people may benefit, a bad thing?

[CubanFox]

I am probably going to cop flak for this, but I believe that if you do not ever act altruistically, you have no right to call yourself left wing.

Even if you only give your sandwich to the starving man for the good feelings attached, you are still acting altruistically, and are acting on a moral ground miles higher than that of capitalism; you have given the starving man something for nothing, capitalism would have you giving the starving man something for two somethings.

[Fidelbrand]

Even if you only give your sandwich to the starving man for the good feelings attached


you have given the starving man something for nothing

I agree you mostly, but lets consider this: The good feeling attached is already something earned in return.

[percept¡on]

Don't worry about what the fuck objectivists think, they're a cult of retarded pseudo-philosophers.

But on the subject of altruism. I agree that most of the time you do things which on the surface appear altruistic, but for which you do for other reasons, such as for the 'good feeling' or so that you don't look like a dick to others. But sometimes I've done things which I didn't want to do, but did anyway, out of pure compassion; to me that's altruism. Either way, just because it's not altruism doesn't make it bad, or even detract from it. If you're helping someone you should feel good about yourself.

[Monty Cantsin]

altruism - i dont think it exists.

edit:
www.dictionary.com

1 Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

2 Zoology. Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species.

i still dont think it exists.

[DaCuBaN]

Altruism is in itself a dirty word, and I've posted my opinions on the definition of it on other parts of this board.

I don't believe that altruism is purely selflessness, nor do I believe it to be the polar opposite of Egoism: It is simply a matter of not putting yourself above others; of not devaluing others through your selfishness, and trying to look at the other's point of view. Perhaps a better decription would be psychological equality?


2 Zoology. Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species.

i still dont think it exists.

I can't comment on your own situation in life, but I've sure done things that from a personal perspective I wish I hadn't; A good example would be my last relationship: I knew that the person I was with could do so much more without my interference and influence, and so I ended it. From this I gained nothing but initial abuse from the person concerned and heart wrenching pain in myself for the months afterwards.

Have you never done similar 'selfless' acts?

[Monty Cantsin]

yes - but nothing that big. s

[DaCuBaN]

Nowadays, she's engaged to a hungarian PhD student and herself is studying philosophy in Germany - and I do in many ways regret my action. However, had I not done this she would quite possibly still be here wasting her life as we speak with me.

This way, she might make a difference; she might succeed where I failed. I'm proud that I did this, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.

To me, that is what 'altruism' truly is.

Similarly, don't sell yourself short by thinking the acts you do for others don't 'compare' to what those before you have done; The smallest act can have the greatest of consequences. This is something that a pure egoist essentially seems to reject, or at leas this is my impression of it.

[New Tolerance]

Altruism is still Altruism if it is done for good feelings. Since the result is: help me help you. A win win situation. Which is the whole point of the thing.

[apathy maybe]

I use to argue that there was no purely selfless reason for anything. If you did something good you did it for the good feeling. And if you did something like what DaCuBaN did, well you are a masochist.

But now I don't think like that. I don't really know if people do things just to feel good or look good, but at least they are doing the things.

[DaCuBaN]

I'm sure you could argue that I was a sadist too :D


I don't really know if people do things just to feel good or look good, but at least they are doing the things.

Yup: Actions are far more important than intent.

[Daymare17]

A very interesting discussion.

Anyone interested in the Marxist take on the subject onshould read Their Morals And Ours by Trotsky - http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...36/1936-mor.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1936/1936-mor.htm)

[gaf]

altruism? hu,m let' s look

is being a social animal giving a chance to other is
or makin choice takin count that you are not alone and then share
to be or not to be alone that's the question?

[commiecrusader]

technically, from a psychological point of view, an act isnt altruistic unless the person performing it receives absolutely no reward from their actions. these rewards would include pride, alleviating guilt, or other people thinking better of you for what you did e.g. a martyr or something like that.

therefore, from a psychological point of view, altruism does not exist, since people will always receive some kind of reward, even if it may be outweighed by negative consequences, the reward will still be there. for example despite dacuban's regrets over the break-up, he is still proud of his actions, hence he gets a reward. however i do think it is possible for people to act in a helpful way without thinking about the rewards or expecting them, but technically this isnt altruism, merely helpfulness. i do not however think these helpful acts are a bad thing though at all. how can they be?

[New Tolerance]

To answer this question, prehaps we should determine how the concept of altruism came about in the first place.

If there is NO such thing as altruism, then the concept of altruism is simply the mistakened perception of an act which actually helps both parties (with one side's benefits less visible).

But I think that this is actually in practice better than the classical form of "altruism", since why only help someone else at your own expense, when you can both benefit from your actions?

"Win win situations" are better than "classical altruism".

In this respect, I think the case made for communism is not undermined, but enhanced by the fact that there is no such thing as altruism. Since win win situations actually does more good to humanity than just the simple "I lose, you win".

[commiecrusader]

i agree with you entirely new tolerance. of course its best for as many people as possible to benefit from each others actions. i was simply pointing out that as far as i and most psychologists (i am not one but have studied it) are concerned, altruism doesn't exist thats all lol.

[New Tolerance]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 09:51 PM
i agree with you entirely new tolerance. of course its best for as many people as possible to benefit from each others actions. i was simply pointing out that as far as i and most psychologists (i am not one but have studied it) are concerned, altruism doesn't exist thats all lol.
I don't dispute that. ;)

[Don't Change Your Name]

I'd say nobody is really an altruist.
If you act on such a way, even if it is on an extreme way, it is because part of your self-interest is seeing the ones around you living happily and blah blah blah.
The religious people will make charity because their god/church tells them to, because otherwise "He" will send them to hell. So it's part of their self interest.

[Subversive Pessimist]

Nowadays, she's engaged to a hungarian PhD student and herself is studying philosophy in Germany - and I do in many ways regret my action. However, had I not done this she would quite possibly still be here wasting her life as we speak with me.

This way, she might make a difference; she might succeed where I failed. I'm proud that I did this, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.

To me, that is what 'altruism' truly is.

That's how it is to me too. What you did takes some guts. But you're a smart guy. I would certainly not feel like wasting my time if I was living, or talking with you.

Anyways, what you did was truly selflessness. I can only imagine how much what you did hurt. You should be proud for doing such a thing.

-------------------------------

I don't have much money, but couple of days ago, I gave some money to a homeless drunk person. I knew that most likely, he was most likely going to use them to get drunk, but I gave some of my power away, and gave it to him. I said to him "go buy some food", and he was very greatful. Few days ago, I saw him with a beer in his hand, just like I expected. But I gave him an opportunity to do something with his life. I don't really like him, but I try to think of him as a human, although he doesn't exactly behave in a very good manner. But still I did it.

It's just a small thing in every day life, but I still think of acts like that as altruistic. Especially acts where you do something that will not benefit yourself, but others, like what DaCuban did.

[DaCuBaN]

Thanks, but to be honest I'd rather just keep the thoughts on the subject in the back of my mind...

Anyway, as usual wikipedia has a wonderful definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism) of Altruism:


Altruism is an unselfish interest in helping someone else. It is a motivation that emphasizes the welfare of others while minimizing or ignoring the individual's own welfare. The concept has a long history in philosophical and ethical thought, and has more recently become a topic for psychologists, sociologists, evolutionary biologists, and ethologists. While ideas about altruism from one field can have an impact on the other fields, the different methods and focuses of these fields lead to different perspectives on altruism. Different perspectives on altruism can arise from using narrow or broad definitions of self-interest. At one extreme, self-interest is limited to material benefits for the actor, while at the other extreme, self-interest includes psychological rewards.

Which is pretty much what we've said. It goes further to discuss the origins:


The word was coined by Auguste Comte, the French founder of positivism. Advocates of altruism as an ethical doctrine assert that one's actions ought to further the welfare of other people, ideally to the exclusion of one's own interests. Altruism is distinguished from ethical egoism, according to which one's actions ought to further one's own interests.

In practice, altruism is the performance of duties to others with no view to any sort of personal gain for one's efforts. If one performs an act beneficial to others with a view to gaining some personal benefit, then it is not an altruistic act. As noted above, there are several different perspectives on how "personal benefit" (or "self-interest") should be defined. A material gain (e.g. money, a physical reward, etc.) is clearly a form of personal benefit, but some philosophers also count immaterial gains (affection, respect, reputation, etc.) as similar personal benefits.