should we as socialists

[cubist]

Been thinking about this since i read the shoplifting thread in chit chat,

and should we, is it ok to steal what is someones property for our own, when really we beleive that property is theft,

to me theres the the OK, debatable and no groups,

its ok to do anything that is to me are human requirement in the society we created, we decided to stop living like animals and so everyone should be given that right. for example;

steal bread if you need to eat,
to squat in an empty house if you need shelter
to steal clothes if you are bare

its debatable to trash a corperate building in protest for the action of those at the top. as the effects that it really has are on fellow workers struggling to survive in the world to which they ar eenslaved,

its obviously wrong to murder, rape, attack people for discriminitory reasons you have no right to make.

what do you lot think? is it ok to commit crime becuase the crimes infringe our rights and our beliefs?

[socialistfuture]

yeah why the fuck not.

there are laws made bu upper class ****s to rule the masses. the judicial system, is corrupt. on the otherside dont think any of those arguments are going to get you anywhere if u get caught.

it will effect who u do it to as well - eg u steal off a small diary u might hurt the owner.

read about some of things the yippies did - they made a full mockery of society. abbie hoffman wrote a book called 'steal this book' basically describing how to live for free or very cheaply.

one of the yippies put it best if its a privelege to eat in a society not a basic right that society doesnt desrve the right to exist.

[cubist]

if its a privelege to eat in a society not a basic right that society doesnt desrve the right to exist.

brilliant couldn't agree with that more

[Djehuti]

Ofcource we should, if there is something to gain. We are not legalists, nor moralists and we should not be either. To follow the law because it is the law is plain stupid. To follow the law out of tactical reasons is wise, i do not commit crimes all the time because it is stupid. But i will never say that i will never commit a crime, cause thats just as stupid.

I commit a crime if I find it necessary, or usefull in any way. If the possitive aspects outweights the negative, then I do it. That the bourgeoisie say that "this is the law, and therefor it should not be broken" doesnt concern me a bit.

[Urban Rubble]

Cubist, I can hardly even read your post. I apologize if English is your second language, but you need to try alot harder than that.


and should we, is it ok to steal what is someones property for our own, when really we beleive that property is theft,

We shouldn't be opposed to all private property, we should be opposed to the privitization of the means of production. No, it absolutely wrong to steal something that another person worked for.



To follow the law because it is the law is plain stupid.

I agree. However, if you think I don't steal from people because the law says I can't, then it is you who is stupid. I don't steal because I don't wish to fuck other people over, not because it's illegal.


I commit a crime if I find it necessary, or usefull in any way.

I could kill your mother and steal her jewlery. Would that be O.K because it was useful to me ? There is more to it that "Is it useful" like, "Will it hurt more people than it helps".

[eyedrop]

In some cases is it okay too steal; especially when the present system is so ineffective.

Like too example when a pal of mine works as a cell-phone repairer and he gets in waterdamaged phone. Because the phone is waterdamaged it can't be delivered out because thephone may break later so they instead get's a new back on the insurance. The waterdamaged phones are then supposed to be destroyed. They are only destroyed because the cell phone company has the copyright. But it's completely wasteful for the society except the company themself. He instead takes them and gives them to pals like me.
Thievery like this which only hurt a copyright are completely okay, since noone are hurt the slightest and is much more efficient for the globe.




Squatting a house is also okay since it is insane to have someone be homeless while there stands 3 houses empty a few hundred meters away.

[Hiero]

Yeah lets all become petty criminals thats a great idea.

[Pingu]

when there are no rules, and everyone can take everything there will be people who abuse this

[h&s]

Squatting a house is also okay since it is insane to have someone be homeless while there stands 3 houses empty a few hundred meters away.
We should all support squatting as a house left empty is private property. No-one has any right to own land, and an empty house is just another form of land-ownership.
However, just stealing for personal gain shouldn't be done.
You may say that it is fine to steal from a big company that pays it's workers shit, but you have to ask the question; who will lose out from it? The company? Probably not. The workers? Probably yes. If a company starts to notice lots of little things going missing that they can't see on CCTV they are going to blame the workers. This will lead to them being oppresssed more at work, which you've got to feel guilty about. This may also lead to increased CCTV, which most of us will say is a bad thing as well.
Stealing from a little business shouldn't be done either. A little community grocers or hardware shop can't really cope with theft. If they shut down it will just lead to the big companies making more profit.

Stealing....don't do it!

[eyedrop]

You may say that it is fine to steal from a big company that pays it's workers shit, but you have to ask the question; who will lose out from it? The company? Probably not. The workers? Probably yes. If a company starts to notice lots of little things going missing that they can't see on CCTV they are going to blame the workers. This will lead to them being oppresssed more at work, which you've got to feel guilty about. This may also lead to increased CCTV, which most of us will say is a bad thing as well.

But the point is that I'm not stealing from anyone, the cell phones were just gonna be destroyed anyway. Why should I let them destroy something that works just fine. The only reason they don't give them away for free is that the market for cell phones would suffer.

I'm getting something and noone suffers, how can a crime without a victim be a crime?

[Djehuti]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 18 2004, 03:33 AM
We shouldn't be opposed to all private property, we should be opposed to the privitization of the means of production. No, it absolutely wrong to steal something that another person worked for.




I agree. However, if you think I don't steal from people because the law says I can't, then it is you who is stupid. I don't steal because I don't wish to fuck other people over, not because it's illegal.



I could kill your mother and steal her jewlery. Would that be O.K because it was useful to me ? There is more to it that "Is it useful" like, "Will it hurt more people than it helps".
"We shouldn't be opposed to all private property, we should be opposed to the privitization of the means of production. No, it absolutely wrong to steal something that another person worked for."

Marx seperated private property (means of productions, forests, land, resources, etc) from individual property (?...dont know if he used that term, have not read much Marx on english), like your tooth brush, or your car. So when we talk about abolishing the private property, we dont mean to make your underwear collective property.


"I agree. However, if you think I don't steal from people because the law says I can't, then it is you who is stupid."

I agree. And I think I stated as much.


"I could kill your mother and steal her jewlery. Would that be O.K because it was useful to me?"

Ofcource not. I guess i expressed myself quite clumsy.

[h&s]

But the point is that I'm not stealing from anyone, the cell phones were just gonna be destroyed anyway. Why should I let them destroy something that works just fine. The only reason they don't give them away for free is that the market for cell phones would suffer.

I'm getting something and noone suffers, how can a crime without a victim be a crime?

I was making a general point about shoplifting - there's nothing wrong in what you do.

[antieverything]

I could have told you the kinda crap that would be said in this thread before I even read the subtitle!

:lol:

As I predicted everyone is saying "why not, those are capitalist laws!?"

Of course you are all missing the point by a fucking mile. The "morality" of criminal activity is largely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether or not a specific criminal action contributes to the movement's goals. More often than not, however, political violence does little more than galvanize the public against "anarchist rioters" and help the ruling class maintain its power.

Nice try, though. :ph34r:

[gaf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 12:49 PM
when there are no rules, and everyone can take everything there will be people who abuse this
they are rules and they are abusing it but you still voting for them.abracadabra....

[socialistfuture]

maybe nelson mandela has the answer:

when injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty

[apathy maybe]

Absolutely, it is your moral duty to disobey (even go out of your way) unjust laws. It is up to you to decide what is just and what isn't, and I don't even believe in morals.

[Pingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 05:36 PM
they are rules and they are abusing it but you still voting for them.abracadabra....
If everyone can take they want, why would people work?

*and i am voting on them, and by them i mean the socialist in my country, and what's wrong with that?*

[gaf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 12:56 PM
If everyone can take they want, why would people work?

*and i am voting on them, and by them i mean the socialist in my country, and what's wrong with that?*
because you are lazy or don't have any social skills!
and i think working is building our future (and the one of our childrens) not destrying it like now.and there is nothing wrong with soccii only with hypocrisie

[cubist]

rubble, my english is just that bad, we have had this converstaion one hundred million times, it look sok to me when i type it and i can't be fucking bothered to spell check it or anything, seeing as you manage to refute it so i assume you managed.

Fucking Shut up neonate, you are clearly not of the politically left if you think its not ok to steal food when you are starving,

[Anarchist Freedom]

do what you must to live my friend.

[gaf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 12:27 PM
rubble, my english is just that bad, we have had this converstaion one hundred million times, it look sok to me when i type it and i can't be fucking bothered to spell check it or anything, seeing as you manage to refute it so i assume you managed.

Fucking Shut up neonate, you are clearly not of the politically left if you think its not ok to steal food when you are starving,
don't worry they do that with everybody who can not express himself really clearly
but they have so a big brain that it is so, they just want don't to understand it. either they are elitist or nationalist or puberal either they are stupide .but i just think they just never had to fight to just merely survive
and it is ok to steal food when you have nothing .i don't do it anymore but i have done it and i will do it again if i must.good luck ..i'll see you around
;)

[ylayali]

no.why should you get to steal someone elses land after they worked and saved all their lives to buy it? and then you come along and take it? if you steal bread from someones store someone else will have to pay for it.the price of bread goes up because of theft and the people working in the store who are just trying to make a living and feed their families get paid less money so the store can regain the money its losing due to theft.businesses leave, people are out of work, children starve.sure thats a good way to how fagile capitalism is but at what cost? so you can feel like a revolutionary while people starve?

[gaf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 04:08 PM
no.why should you get to steal someone elses land after they worked and saved all their lives to buy it? and then you come along and take it? if you steal bread from someones store someone else will have to pay for it.the price of bread goes up because of theft and the people working in the store who are just trying to make a living and feed their families get paid less money so the store can regain the money its losing due to theft.businesses leave, people are out of work, children starve.sure thats a good way to how fagile capitalism is but at what cost? so you can feel like a revolutionary while people starve?
and what you do if you already starve .just look!
and ehen i say steal i mean big supermarkt with so as in french then"auto reduction"
or in dutch "proletarish wikelen". doesn't include small business who btw can get it back via insurances....survival in a rich man world man

or go to squat a ruine or a farm grow your own things you may got the best!