May 9th, 1945- The victory over fascist Germany. - USSR' s g

[Revolution Hero]

9th of May 1945. Soviet soldiers are finally in Berlin.
That was the great victory of the young socialist state, as they have fought the war almost alone. The victory have prooved the ideological advantage of the USSR, strong humanistic feelings of all Soviet citizens , all of whom have taken part in the war against fascism.

USA, France, Great Britain also have put all their efforts in order to get the final result- the victory over Nazi Germany. But USSR has showed to all the world how the young , socialist state had been able to defend not only itself , but the whole world.

CELEBRATE THE GREAT VICTORY!!!

[Menshevik]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. . . the USSR seriosly got its ass kicked in the war. Stalin, the fucking nut, killed all of his senior officers (that always impairs ones army) and failed to mobilize fast enough. I'm not even going to mention the non-agression pact with Germany. If it wasn't for the brutal Russian winter, Moscow would have been captured and the entire Soviet infrastructure would have collapsed. It was really touch and go for a long time in Russia. It is true though, they fought the hardest and were rightfully the victors, but what do you think would have happened if the US and Britain never invaded France? Don't forget the treatment of German POWs after the war, thats right, after the war in Siberia. Nearly 70,000 German troops were captured and only 3,000 made it back to Germany after five years at the Salt mines and Gulags. Perhaps this day should be to remember all soldiers of WWII, not just the Soviets.

[Fatos Locos]

Menshevik is right, it wasn't USSR who saved europe, it wasn't USA, it wasn't the Bittans, but it was their combined strentgh. For a moment they forget all the arguments they had, all the diffrences and they saved europe together, but after that USA propaganda was fucking everything up again by making them the heroes of defeating germany.

[PunkRawker677]

Actually, if the USSR didnt defeat germany in the battle of stalingrad then we would all be speaking german and wearing nazi stickers (not to mention the ones, like me, who would be killed). The battle of stalingrad was in no way the final battle, or even a deciding battle. The world saw the nazis as invincible and not many people dared fight against them. When the ussr defeated them, JUST ONCE, the nazis lost alot of morale, and thats when the real war started. If the USSR had NOT defeated the nazis in that one battle, there is a good chance hitler would have succeeded much furthur in his plans.

[Menshevik]

No the Germans wouldn't have advanced any farther than Stalingrad if they did manage to take it. Due to the winter (that starts in November), the Luftwaffe was grounded; the Germans relied heavily on their airsupport. Without air superiority, Blitzkrieg tactics don't work. So the Whermacht had to advance under heavy fire without being able to hide behind their planes. Now, the Germans were quite possibly the best equipped during the war, but in Russia, they had close to nothing. When they invaded in June, they were issued spring uniforms and and their vehicles weren't weather-proofed. Hitler did not plan on staying long in Russia, but he forgot about the winter that seems to sneak up on unsuspecting foes. You'd think he would have remembered Napoleon's crushing defeat, but noooo. Hitler continued his advance, and allowed the Russians to sweep behind his rear, cutting his already thin supply lines. If only the Germans could have used their airpower, they would have defeated Stalin. Back to the ill fated equipment: the uniforms were thin and designed for warm weather, so when the temperatures dropped to -50, lets just say most of the troops were fucked. Men were wrapping themselves in whatever they could find, sheets, curtains, waterproof tarps, etc. Their weapons couldn't function in the bitter cold, their tanks wouldn't start because the engines froze. Their jeeps' and trucks' tires would get hopelessly stuck in the 8 feet of snow. It was a nightmare for the German soldiers on the eastern front.
The Russians, however, were very experienced in winter fighting tactics. They had learned their lesson fighting the Finns. The Russian soldiers had water proof snow suits, white to blend in with the snow. They wore thick wool uniforms. Their boots were lined with insulating fibers and coated with rubber (the Germans had to line their boots with paper in a desperate attempt to prevent frostbite). They were equipped with machine guns and rifles that had special protective encasements for the firing pins, so they couldnt freeze and jam. Their tanks had anti-freeze coating their engines and high-grade diesel fuel. Their other vehicles had chains on their wheels and other snow adapting modifications so they could move with ease through the numerous snow drifts. The Russians had never been more better prepared. I'll stress it again, the Germans were crippled because they were on the offensive with no air support (planes were grounded because of weather and 0 visibility), this made advancement close to impossible. The Russians had all the advantages, the tides had turned so to speak. Thats how the Germans were driven back. By the time they pulled out of Stalingrad, the city was of no strategic importance, in fact, it was of no consequence--it symbolized nothing. The Germans were losing, the allies invaded on the west, the Russians closed in on the east . . . of course the Germans were going to retreat from Stalingrad. It was no great victory, over 3 million civilians had died because of it. Furthermore, the WORLD didn't recognize the efforts that the Russian people had gone through, which was unfortunate. Again, if the Germans managed to take Stalingrad, they would have lost it in a few months, maybe weeks with the Russian counter-attack.

So lets add it all up. The Germans: inadequate clothing, no weaponry, very little armor and mechanized infantry, no airplanes, minimal artillery (not enough shells), and no supply lines/communication lines ergo no reinforcements. The Russians: excellent winter clothing, plenty of weaponry, tank support, constant resupply. The Russians owed everything to the winter of '43, it gave them the upper hand. After that devestating winter, Hitler had no choice but to retreat back into Poland.
And Stalingrad was by no means the first allied victory against the Germans. You're forgetting all of North Africa and the invasion of Italy which were both major successes.

[Menshevik]

sorry for such a long post, but do read it, I make an excellent point. :)

[Menshevik]

I'm concerned that no one wants to contest my post . . . oh well.

[Kez]

Reading this thread makes me sick to think that people who supposedly are not duped by western media can dare to suggest that the USSR didnt win the war.
85% of the Nazi War Effort went on USSR, so the USSR had 85% of the thread to deal with, wheras USA, Britain, France, had 15% to deal with together.
Secondly, i dont know how some1 can suggest that we pity the fuckers (nazi soldiers) who were captured in USSR. WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT STALIN TO DO WITH THEM? GIVE THEM A HOUSE OF LUXURY!?!?!?!
Menshevik your a blind no-hoper, who thinks German Soldiers whould eb remembered, ask yourself what the fuck you are doing here

comrade kamo

[yuriandropov]

USSR didn't in the war? thats a fucking insult to 27 million people including many members of my own family. 80-90% of german casualties were inflicted by the red army. USSR was fighting against romanians and other eastern european countries, GB, France and USA were only fighting one country from 1943 onwards. USA didn't even fucking land in france till mid 1944, by which time the red army had turned the tide and were heading for berlin. it was the red army who ripped the swastika off the reich stag. it was the red army who captured berlin. if USSR didn't win the war, how come we ended up with half of europe? and half of germany? the rest of germany was split up between 3 other countries. the russian winter beat germans. well guess what, the soviets had to put up with the winter too. USSR won the second world war along with great britain. those were the only two countries who fought the whole war and didn't surrendor (unlike france). USA's help was vital but they came too late to take all the glory. quote from hitler "if i knew they had twice as many tanks as i had, i would have thought twice about invading". that was about the USSR, the true victors of the great patriotic war.

[Hayduke]

Ya'all just listen up.

Im really sick of this and Im gonna tell you all why.
Let just pretend that you are not a socialist right now..
and tell me honestly wich country won the war.
That would be America.
A result of great propaganda. Russia lost 27 millions people
and got alot of its strucure destroyed.
Now you tell me how many buildings were destroyed in America
by the Nazis ? How many lifes did America lose.
You may disagree with someones politics but you cannot deny
that Russia played one ( or maybe the most important ) role
in WW2.
Dont let propaganda (or fairytales ) close your eyes from the truth.
27 millions people died just to fight against the nazis.
And gave us our freedom back.

[Kez]

Nice one DDay and yuriandropov, finally some sense on this thread

[Reuben]

pity they didnt give any freedom back to eastern european countires they occupied and prefferred to install ruthless dictaators

[Menshevik]

I am not denying the sacrifices that the Russians made during the war. 27 million is a little out of proportion, but I'm not gonna begin to argue details like that. I wasn't talking about the war in general, I was talking particularly about Stalingrad and then finally the German retreat on the Eastern Front. Yes the Russians invaded Berlin. Do you really think the Americans and British would never have gotten that far. Furthermore, the Russians would have lost the war if it wasn't for the winter that devestated the German 6th Army. The Russians were prepared for it and had the right equipment, why don't you understand that? No it wasn't superior tactics or anything like that, in fact it was extreme luck. Germany did not devote 85% of their manpower to the eastern front. Have you ever heard of something called the Battle of the Bulge? It was the largest counter-offensive ever recorded and it happened on the Western Front not the Eastern. Were the Russians at all involved in the Battles at Sea? No they played no role at all, that was left to the Americans and largely the British. How about the Battle of Britain, does that ring a bell? If the English hadn't defeated the Germans in the air, the war would have been decided right then and there. The Russians were getting fucked up the ass since the beggining of Operation Barbarossa--it's a simple fact. I am not trying to undermine the amazing efforts of the Russian people during the German offensive, but they were losing badly. Stalin didn't help either by killing his chain of command. The other countries that you mention did shit. They were German lapdogs who manly policed their lands for lost Russian Troops and Jews.
Let me give you an analogy to make the Russian's situation more clear.
Imagine the United States throwing everything they had at France. Now, the French would fight very bravely and perhaps very effectively, but after a certain amount of time, they would just start to get worn down. It wouldn't be their fault it would just be the US superior manpower. If there was some kind of unsuspected occurence, like a blizzard in November, then maybe the US could be detered and maybe even driven back (if they weren't prepared). The Russians performed amazing feats, like producing thousands of combat-ready tanks, and they fought very bravely, but unfortunately it wasn't enough. Ultimately when the Germans retreated and were then mostly surrounded, the Russians truly proved their fighting capabilites and decimated the German army. Entire panzer divisions were destroyed and 90,000 German troops of the 6th army (including their commanding officer) were captured. If the Russia's Allies did not invade, all their hard fighting would have been in vain because the Germans would have come back ten times stronger.

In conclusion: The Russians played an incredibly large role in the fighting, but it was actually no more than the US or Britain (civilian casulties doesnt=more significant role). The US and Britain had to invade North Africa, Italy, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, the Pacific, and don't forget the Atlantic; according to you that's inconsequential. Patton as well as Montgomery were actually told to hold off of Berlin and let the Russians take it--they could have been there months before Zhukov. And Kamo, do not confuse Wehmacht soldiers with Waffen-SS or Nazi party officials. For the most part the 70,000 prisoners taken at Berlin were teenage boys and old men--did they really deserver to rot away in a Gulag years after the war? They weren't entirely responsible for the suffering inflicted on the Russians. You have the SS to blame for that. I was only trying to point out the efforts of all Allied countries during the war, not just the Soviets. And yes, May 8 should be a day of rememberence for all who died in Europe, not just the people who you think are righteous.

[Hattori Hanzo]

You are correct- the USA, Britain, nor the USSR was the victor and won the war, only the thousands of soldiers, workers, and tacticians who devoted their lives to fight against the ultimate evil created by hitler and his enslaved, blind pople. THE TRUE VICTORS OF WWII WERE THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD! THEY SAVED US! COMMON MEN AND WOMEN SAVED THE FUTURE OF THEIR DESCENDENTS, YOU AND I, AND THOSE PATHETIC, GREEDY CAPITALISTS WHO SIT IN THE SEATS OF POWER WHICH GOVERN ME (WITHOUT MY CONSENT, THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED)!!!!!!!!

[yuriandropov]

USSR INFLICTED 80% of german casualties. not german sents 80% of man power to USSR. 27million inaccurate, i don't think so. the official figure for soviet losses during WWII was 26.6million. civillian losses don't count, or aren't 'significant', what! USA didn't have to put up with shit in that war. not one bomb dropped on US Civilian targets. the victors of WWII were great britain and USSR. USA and france both had small roles. great britain was in the war 39-45, they didn't surrendor or back away from fighting like USA and France. youve watched too many WWII war films. the berliners that were captured in berlin didn't deserve to rot in the gulags? they were the fuckers who voted for hitler to get into power! they were the fuckers firing at us in berlin! unless your a soviet, you have no idea what USSR's western territories went through in WWII. US citizens could just get on woth there lives duing WWII, soviet citizens couldn't, even the women had to fight at the front. we were fighting for our lives, USA was fighting for foreign influence.

[Kez]

Reuben i agree that the USSR shouldnt have placed puppets in the East Europe, but did they have a choice the way american imperialism was bound to and DID spread?

Stalin did send many generals too gulags but then released them once he realised he had fucked up.

Hattori, i dont know what point your trying to make, the only civilians who helped fight nazism were the resistance fighters in france and czech, but they were outnumbered by collaborators.

Menshevik - "Montgomery were actually told to hold off of Berlin and let the Russians take it--they could have been there months before Zhukov."
Churchill told Montgomery to hold the German weapons caught and save them to use against the Russians. So the Russians took most of the shit on their triumphant march into Berlin, where they inflicted hundreds of thousands of deaths when the Western Allies were strolling in from france.

It is a great misconcemtion that it was an equal war, but yet Yanks get most credit, fuck knows y, oh yes, i remember the media.

Peace
Comrade Kamo

[Menshevik]

The "yanks" had to put up with shit too. Read any book on WWII that gives a chronological account of the war on all sides, you will understand what I'm talking about. Civilians do not fight, therefore their deaths are tragedies and no more. If a soldier is killed, his death shortens his army's manpower. Countless civilians were killed in Holland, England, France, Belgium, and Poland, but that alone does not describe their involvement in the war. The Poles were defeated in a week, but millions of civilians were killed. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Kez]

no

[Menshevik]

whatever

[Maaja]

I just wrote about it to the Literature Forum but I have to mention it here too. I read a good book about the fight against nazis, 'The Young Guard'. It simply how youth in a little town fought, how they did anti-nazi propaganda, how they executed nazis and finally freed their town.

[Reuben]

if you get a chance you must read if not now when. It is a factually based novel about the jewish partisn resistance. Really great read.

[Kez]

sounds good, will buy

[maoist3]

Menshevik: Where were the Mensheviks during World War II? Sure some fought in Spain, but France wussed out.

In fact, countries with a preponderance of Mensheviks
to Bolsheviks caved in to the Nazis readily. You piss
on Stalin at length without standing FOR what your
line is and the people who upheld it during World War II.
(I'm not surprised, because any sensible comparison
would show that Mensheviks helped put Hitler in power
not just in Germany but all across Europe.)

Yuri and DDay make good points. The tide was already
turned before the DDay invasion of France. The
United $tates and England only got involved on the
continent because Stalin was going to win the whole
thing without them--and take
control for socialism. People who doubt this need
to read some more military history.

Anarchists: Where were you doing WWII? In Spain
you were whining about the Soviet Union, which was
the ONLY country to send weapons to the Republican
forces, no matter what other disagreements there were.
What society that you organized did anything to stop
the Nazis? And then a lot of you come to this group
and say shit like Stalin=Nazis.

No, it's Anarchism=failure in revolution=Nazis.