Log in

View Full Version : North Korea,: The Grand Deception



Pedro Alonso Lopez
16th August 2004, 14:44
Thanks to Ixabert for posting this elsewhere.



North Korea: the Grand Deception
A good article about people have been to N. Korea. They note that the notions of isolationism etc in N. Korea "dissolved" upon their visit. Free health care, free housing, free education including university education, no death penalty, etc.

"On September 29th, 2003 four lawyers from the National Lawyers Guild of the United States, Peter Erlinder, Professor of Law at the William Mitchell School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, Neil Berman, Attorney in Boston, Massachusetts and Eric Sirotkin and Jennie Lusk, Attorneys in Albuquerque, New Mexico as well as a member of the American Association of Jurists, Christopher Black, Barrister in Toronto, Canada, traveled to North Korea. [...]

"We came to North Korea in order to increase bonds between lawyers in North Korea and the west, as well as to increase understanding between the peoples of North America and North Korea in order to reduce the risk of war between the DPRK and the United States of America."

Read the rest here:
http://www.korea-is-one.org/articles/lawyers.htm

Particularly interesting:

"Much is written about the alleged starvation, even referred to as intentional, of the North Korean people by their government. On our trips both North and South in the country we covered round trip over 500 kilometers. During that time we had the opportunity to see agricultural communities and small towns. We noticed that the people on the whole looked well dressed and active. We saw no one who looked malnourished or emaciated and our observations were confirmed by many of the foreigners we met who had dealings around the country. The DPRK has very little areable land and we saw crops being harvested everywhere it was possible to grow them. It appears every square inch of arable land is cultivated, and on the roofs of their country cottages people had planted vines of what looked like melons or pumpkin. The people we passed on the road and in towns we passed through all looked relaxed, children went to school or played, women sat side saddle on bikes as their husbands pedaled, no one seemed dispirited or broken.

"We noted that this was not the Orwellian society George Bush and much of the media is trying to portray. The countryside appeared to us to be more typical of the poorer part of Europe, for example rural Greece, or Spain or Portugal. Three members of the delegation who had experience in Africa noted that the country appeared much more prosperous that most places they had been in Africa. This was confirmed by the Congolese visitors we met, who indicated that people in many parts of the Congo would love to have the standard of living apparent in North Korea. The landscape, with its mountains in the background, and ravines, its trees, its rivers and arid parts, and houses with white walled, ochre tiled roofs was similar to southern parts of Europe.

"Another surprise was the absence of a police presence in the country. We never saw a single policeman with a gun or even a club. The only police we saw were police officers, mainly women, directing traffic at certain intersections. There were occasional guard stations along the road down south as we approached the DMZ. We saw soldiers in many places, usually helping harvest crops or working in the fields or helping on a construction site. But we rarely saw a soldier armed. The contrast between North Korea and its lack of policemen and North America in which armed police in bulletproof vests are commonplace was more than striking - it was startling. If the presence or absence of armed policemen is a criterion for a free society then this speaks volumes about the nature of the two societies."

Even more interesting:

"We were struck by the design of the DPRK criminal justice system. We even found in a bookstore the Criminal Procedures Act of the DPRK in English. Several principles seem quite progressive and reflect more of restorative justice, than retributive justice. The prime objective of the criminal justice system is rehabilitation, not punishment, or setting an example. There is an element of the latter as there are jail terms for crimes but this is not the major thrust of their system. In fact, they have codified a process by which those affected by the decision or the conduct of the accused have a real role in the process and those that contributed to the delinquent act or were involved in educating the person (i.e. a parent or friend) have to be available in the process to receive a ?lecture? from the court. Penalties might include submitting the accused to ?social? or ?public education.? Those arrested are required to have their families notified within 48 hours. A defence counsel is to be provided to represent the rights of the accused.

"We were told that there was no death penalty and that the maximum penalty for any crime is 12 years, with the objective being to try to determine why the person committed the crime and to help that person become a productive member of society. A lack of a death penalty was seen by the delegation as a sign of a civilized nation. There appear to be labour camps where people work out their sentences. No effort was made to hide the presence of these camps. The U.S. media?s recent reports on the poor conditions, high mortality rate and lack of proper care or food, in the camps requires further investigation. In light of the false and exaggerated claims about starvation in the country in general, these reports must be viewed with a grain of salt. We will ask to visit these camps on future delegations."

Free education:

"As in Cuba and the former USSR, education is free up to Ph.D level. University students are paid a small stipend. Universities and specialty colleges have been established for all regions of the country and entry is by competitive examination. Any student can apply to go to any university or college as long as they pass the entrance examination. After the completion of their education DPRK tries to place the students in the field in which they are trained. Apparently the country has the capacity to enroll between 40 and 60% of the high school students in university at this time."

Free Health Care

"Again as in Canada, Cuba, much of Europe and the former USSR, health care is completely free of charge. Moreover, doctors make house calls in rural areas. Every city has a main hospital and there are specialty hospitals in the larger towns. The system is then composed of regional, district and local clinics all staffed by doctors and nurses so that no one in the country is without medical care. However, in light of embargos there is a shortage of medical supplies. Further, doctor visits each village or city district to ensure preventive techniques are used and that people are doing their best to keep fit. There is an on-going keep fit program in place in the country in which the population has to maintain a certain level of fitness appropriate for age categories."

"The floods and drought periods caused disruption of the food supply and caused malnutrition but this has been overcome and the population generally appeared in good condition. Contrary to claims that the disabled are hidden away by the secret regime, we observed disabled people in public who needed canes or had amputated limbs. Further, a woman with a developmental disability was among the friendly picnickers we encountered. According to the North Koreans, parents of children born with chronic conditions receive an extra stipend for their care at home, so long as they are able to stay in the home."

Free Housing:

"Housing is also free and consists either of fairly modern high rises or traditional cottage style houses with brick walls and tile roofs. While the high rises looked sometimes in need of paint or plaster, they looked otherwise well kept and clean. On an evening drive through Pyongyang one of our delegation observed beauty and barber shops on the ground floor of an apartment building. We observed work crews working on refinishing buildings within Pyongyang. While the homes lack many modern conveniences we saw TV antennae attached to many of them. Housing is allotted by local peoples? committees in each area who decide who in the area gets which accommodation taking into account various family needs and availability. Young people who are single and not away at school generally live with their parents until marriage at which time they are provided free accommodation."

h&s
16th August 2004, 14:49
I really wouldn't believe any of that in the article. As foreigners are only allowed where their minders let them, they will only see what they are allowed to. Its like a modern housing estate; the show home is brilliant and is built and furnished to the highest quality, but the rest of the estate might aswell be built out of Lego.

YKTMX
16th August 2004, 15:02
"I've seen the future and it works" ;)

DaCuBaN
16th August 2004, 15:45
I've been spoonfed so much bullshit on NK that I really don't know what to believe. It certainly is an authoritarian regime, and that I resent. However...


"The potential for tourism is high"
The Pacific Asia Travel Association DPR Korea Task Force issued a report on the tourism potential in DPRK.

http://www.korea-is-one.org/IMG/Lake_Chon-spring-Uriminzzokiri.gif
Mount Paektu in spring.


The report was written by a five-person PATA Task Force that travelled to DPR Korea (North Korea) in September 2003 to study the country`s tourism potential.

The PATA Task Force gained an overall understanding of the country`s tourism products and paid particular attention to marketing, air access, ground operations, infrastructure and the modernisation of flag carrier, Air Koryo.

The PATA DPR Korea Task Force drew upon PATA`s 30 years` experience in sending task forces to work with new and developing destinations.

"Tourism in the DPRK is, in volume terms, in its early stages," said Task Force Chairman, Mr. Neil Plimmer.

"The country has been welcoming tourists for many years but this has not been adequately publicised. It offers an intriguing holiday, rich in unique experiences, and a safe environment. The potential for tourism growth, with all its social and economic benefits, is high."

He added: "We believe North Korea should, at its own pace, join the booming world of Asia Pacific tourism."

Mr. Plimmer`s Task Force colleagues -- Mr. Paul Casey, Mr. Laurent Kuenzle, Mr. Charles Leong and PATA Director, Mr. KC Sim -- brought with them expertise from across the private and public sectors of the travel industry in Asia Pacific.

Mr. Sim said: "The DPRK remains one of Asia`s best-kept secrets, a country that possesses a wealth of historical, cultural, natural and man-made attractions."

PATA President and CEO, Mr. Peter de Jong, said: "This is a first for the travel and tourism industry in Asia Pacific and signals DPRK`s apparent willingness to open its doors to the fastest growing industry in the world`s fastest growing region."


This doesn't really fit with what I've been told. Given the track record of those who spread the information my opinions are based on, I'm inclined to change them

After I've seen with my own eyes, of course ;)

from http://www.korea-is-one.org/article.php3?id_article=173

Commie Girl
16th August 2004, 16:11
Very interesting...I don't know who to believe, this certainly is food for thought. This is similar to the U$ in what they say about Cuba...mostly lies.

Pedro Alonso Lopez
16th August 2004, 19:23
Exactly, I think we need to be less critical of the DPRK, perhaps examine it a little more. Why we accept every bit of capitalist propaghanda that comes out on the DPRK and not on anything else amazes me.

Eddie999
16th August 2004, 20:13
Interesting article indeed. Its probably true that much of what the western media says about North Korea is indeed lies. However, I doubt its the great society that the article paints it to be.

People who have escaped from North Korea speak of concentration camps where torture and execution is common. They speak of chemical and biological weapons being tested on innocents.

Also, North Korea spends a large amount of it's income on it's military. This may seem wise as the imperialist US has made numerous threats towards North Korea but I'm sure that the genreal population could use the money better.

Despite the article, North Korea is not somewhere that I would like to live.

DaCuBaN
17th August 2004, 09:04
Also, North Korea spends a large amount of it's income on it's military. This may seem wise as the imperialist US has made numerous threats towards North Korea but I'm sure that the genreal population could use the money better.


I'm not a big supporter of armed forces as such, but it does create a lot of work... :D

CubanFox
17th August 2004, 10:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 01:45 AM
authoritarian
I think North Korea is far beyond mere "authoritarian". Kim Jong Il is giving Enver Hoxha a run for his money in the race as to who can have the most isolationist, authoritarian hell hole.

In my view, any leader that feels the need to bullshit about his place of birth and make up even worse bullshit about "extraordinary events" occuring on his birthday really needs to die.

To quote Mother Jones magazine...

The adulation [of Kim-Jong Il] will reach its peak on February 16th, the semi-religious celebration of Mr. Kim's birth. Every year, the state-controlled media report miraculous phenomena: concentric rainbows circling the sun, the birth of a new star, and unseasonably warm temperatures at Mount Paektu, said to be the Great Leader's birthplace (although western historians say he was actually born in Russia). One year, an albino sea anemone was said to have trapped itself in fishing nets so that it could come ashore to celebrate...When the day comes, the Workers Party newspaper, Rodong Sinmun, reports the appearance of glorious rainbow clouds in the Mount Paektu range...North Korean television hails the discovery of a rare albino raccoon, which it says signifies momentous times ahead for the country and its leader.

Lacrimi de Chiciură
17th August 2004, 18:06
But haven't real North Koreans who have really lived there said that there is starvation & etc?

Pedro Alonso Lopez
17th August 2004, 21:47
Well they are defectors, it is always hard to trust defectors.

Urban Rubble
17th August 2004, 23:45
Are you guys fucking kidding me ? All it takes to "disprove" the volumes of information that says the place is in chaos is a small article written by a few guys who took a guided tour of the place ?

Listen, any country where you are assigned a guide in order to be able to explore has serious problems. Am I the only one that sees this ? Let me guess, the guide is only there in to keep spies and counter revolutionaries in line, right ?

No, North Korea isn't isolationist at all. I mean, sure, Americans can't go there, no foreigner can step foot inside the country without a state appointed guide, no foreigner can choose where he stays, eats or visits, no pregnant women or elderly have ever been seen in Pyongang and the only way you find out about disasters (such as the trainwreck that killed 3000 people a couple months ago) are from sattelite images and rumors that come across the Chinese border. Nope, nothing shady there at all.


Why we accept every bit of capitalist propaghanda that comes out on the DPRK and not on anything else amazes me.

Everything that is critical of a "Socialist" nation like DPRK is not propaganda. Some of it is, *gasp* the truth ! The blanket term of propaganda is used far too often by leftists to justify the fucked up things the leaders they so badly want to admire are doing. The fact that you have to be appointed a guide in order to walk around the country should tell you all you need to know. Plus, how are we to get anything else BUT propaganda when you have a man like Kim Jong Il in charge ? The man is a walking propaganda machine !! Everything that the man says is propaganda and most of what the west says about him is propaganda. The key is to look at the bullshit that both sides are spewing and find a middle ground. From what I've seen, this time the "Capitalists" have it right. Kim is a nut and his country is shit.


Well they are defectors, it is always hard to trust defectors.

I agree. However, if it wasn't for the fact that people aren't allowed to come and go as they please we would have alot more testimony to go on.

Commie Girl
17th August 2004, 23:50
Noone said they supported what goes on in North Korea...it is just interesting hearing a different perspective, thats all.

wet blanket
18th August 2004, 08:42
I see North Korea becoming George Orwell's worst nightmare some time in the not-so-distant future.

all-too-human
18th August 2004, 09:00
Originally posted by wet [email protected] 18 2004, 08:42 AM
I see North Korea becoming George Orwell's worst nightmare some time in the not-so-distant future.
People will turn into pigs?

CubanFox
18th August 2004, 09:35
Originally posted by all-too-[email protected] 18 2004, 07:00 PM
People will turn into pigs?
I think he meant a state beyond even the wildest dreams of 1984.

h&s
18th August 2004, 12:41
Listen, any country where you are assigned a guide in order to be able to explore has serious problems. Am I the only one that sees this ?
No, I commented on that aswell.

I see North Korea becoming George Orwell's worst nightmare some time in the not-so-distant future.
In the not-too distant future? You mean its not terrible now?

Saint-Just
18th August 2004, 13:20
The bourgeoisie in western countries has attempted to eliminate support for socialists countries and the recognition as socialism as an alternative to capitalism by painting particular pictures of socialists countries, such as the picture constructed in this thread on the DPRK from various ideas such as:


North Korea becoming George Orwell's worst nightmare


a state beyond even the wildest dreams of 1984.


Kim is a nut and his country is shit.


authoritarian hell hole.

These accusations could be true in part. However, I am certain that the purpose of people is to secure their particular view of the world and where these ideas originate, the purpose was to eliminate socialism as an alternative than provide any useful description a political system.



I mean, sure, Americans can't go there
The DPRK allows Americans and South Koreans into the DPRK. But, one would do well to question why the Americans and South Koreans do not allow their citizens into the DPRK. In fact, I know an American who has been to the DPRK, the DPRK authorities did not stamp his passport so that the American authorities could not easily see where he has been.

Subversive Pessimist
18th August 2004, 14:53
People who have escaped from North Korea speak of concentration camps where torture and execution is common. They speak of chemical and biological weapons being tested on innocents.

The guy who spreaded the rumours of "chemical and biological testing against prisoners" admitted about 6 months later that he was paid by the health organizations to spread lies. I believe he got 600 000 $ for saying it. I don't have the article on me though, and it was in Norwegian, so I don't think it would help even if I found it..

Like Geist say, we need to examine North Korea throughoutly, and not just listen to the bourgeoise media.

Last time I checked, the minimum wage in NK is 762


To quote Mother Jones magazine...

The adulation [of Kim-Jong Il] will reach its peak on February 16th, the semi-religious celebration of Mr. Kim's birth. Every year, the state-controlled media report miraculous phenomena: concentric rainbows circling the sun, the birth of a new star, and unseasonably warm temperatures at Mount Paektu, said to be the Great Leader's birthplace (although western historians say he was actually born in Russia). One year, an albino sea anemone was said to have trapped itself in fishing nets so that it could come ashore to celebrate...When the day comes, the Workers Party newspaper, Rodong Sinmun, reports the appearance of glorious rainbow clouds in the Mount Paektu range...North Korean television hails the discovery of a rare albino raccoon, which it says signifies momentous times ahead for the country and its leader.

Western propaganda as usual. They might have made a "personality cult" or something out of Kim, but I read "semi-religious", I knew it was propaganda. The article is just silly, and most probably written by south korea. I've read thousands of articles like that before, it's just... immature.

Also, don't forget that there is no draft in North Korea, enrolling to the army is Voluntary, while in South Korea, as far as I know, you have conscription.

Here are some pictures of North Korea:

http://www2m.biglobe.ne.jp/~taro/py/people.jpg

http://www2m.biglobe.ne.jp/~taro/py/gaesong.jpg

http://users.pandora.be/tofo/Korea/images/Korea_002.JPG

http://user.chollian.net/~cnu2001/Asia-North%20Korea/WFAasi%20Notrh%20Korea-Pyongyang%20Downtown-01.jpg

http://user.chollian.net/~cnu2001/Asia-North%20Korea/WFAasi%20Notrh%20Korea-Pyongyang%20Koryo%20Hotel-01.jpg

http://user.chollian.net/~cnu2001/Asia-North%20Korea/WFAasi%20Notrh%20Korea-Pyongyang%20Tower%20of%20Juche%20Idea-02.jpg

http://user.chollian.net/~cnu2001/Asia-North%20Korea/WFAasi%20Notrh%20Korea-Pyongyang%20Peoples%20Study%20Palace-02.jpg

Louis Pio
18th August 2004, 14:58
Well the idolasation of the Kims is actually semi-religious, it especially have traits of konfucianism. When the old Kim died korean papers carried stories about how the birds of the heaven came to pick him up, but seeing the grief of the koreans they couldn't do it. Now he rests in his maosoleum waiting for resurection.
Several stories exist like that.

Urban Rubble
18th August 2004, 15:04
The DPRK allows Americans and South Koreans into the DPRK. But, one would do well to question why the Americans and South Koreans do not allow their citizens into the DPRK.

That's not true. I can't find it at the moment, but it says right on their website that Americans are not allowed.

Can you tell me why you think it's O.K that nobody can set foot inside the country without a state appointed guide ?


Western propaganda as usual. They MIGHT have made a personality cult or something out of Kim, but I read "semi-religious", I knew it was propaganda. Even Hitler wouldn't do a stupid thing as that.

Are you fucking joking ? it IS semi religious, the fact that you can't see or admit that says that either you're completely ignorant or don't want to believe the truth. The man tells his citizens that magical rainbows and albino animals appear on his birthday. It is far past semi religious, it's totally religious.

Go to www.korea-dpr.com, look at how on the very first page it says "Our beloved leader" and has a huge pic of the Kim's waving. Look at how their pictures and statues are all over the fucking place. Look at how they talk about all these phenomenons on their birthdays, rainbows, weird animals, warm temperatures (at a place they say he was born, but really wasn't). The has made himself into a living God, and he doesn't even deny it, so why are you ?

Eddie999
18th August 2004, 17:14
The guy who spreaded the rumours of "chemical and biological testing against prisoners" admitted about 6 months later that he was paid by the health organizations to spread lies. I believe he got 600 000 $ for saying it. I don't have the article on me though, and it was in Norwegian, so I don't think it would help even if I found it..

That bastard! I believed him. So it was all western propaganda and lies...unsurprising. Still it doesn't make me want to move there. Kim is somewhat of a lunatic.

wet blanket
18th August 2004, 20:52
Western propaganda as usual. They might have made a "personality cult" or something out of Kim, but I read "semi-religious", I knew it was propaganda. The article is just silly, and most probably written by south korea. I've read thousands of articles like that before, it's just... immature.
Hold your tongue before you go and dismiss it all as "western propaganda". Does the fact that the writers are westerners doesn't make it automatically propaganda. It's very true that it's semi-religious, just as christmas, easter, and even the 4th of july celebrations in our western cultures are semi-religious.

The whole "great leader" and cult of personality phenomenon going on there is pretty worrisome if you ask me. The amount of resources that go into all of that crap and the way that Kim Jong-Il lives compared to the average citizen is disgusting and not worth any support at all. I don't care how many pretty pictures you find on the internet, ignoring such things is foolish.

CubanFox
19th August 2004, 10:15
Strawberry, I do not think that a few images of happy people in Pyongyang really refute much at all, for example, take this picture:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Schirach_Youth.JPG
Those Hitler Youth boys look bloody cheerful. However, their country is still a fascist hell run by the most evil of evils.

Happy people and clean streets do not make a utopia, I'm afraid.

Guerrilla22
20th August 2004, 01:41
The DPRK, what a place. I can't belive the fools who wrote that article. So they can tell that all the things they wrote about the DPRK are true, based on a short guided tour of the country? By Kim Jong Il's own admission, there are massive food shortages and the country is in financial ruins.

Of course, I've never been to the DPRK, actually almost no outsiders are allowed in the country, those that are always are carted around by guides provided by the governmnet, so they see what the government wants them to see.

Guerrilla22
20th August 2004, 02:01
Here are some pics of North Korean gulags, according to our good friends at the CIA:

Guerrilla22
20th August 2004, 02:06
"threshing house" house of pain, or ass whipping building sounds better.

Salvador Allende
20th August 2004, 04:32
I think it was a great article telling about the Western lies put on the great worker's state of Korea. I hope you all will look and see the truth in that article and actually look into North Korea and see a true worker's state and not a neo-nazi state like the US reactionaries want you to think.

CubanFox
20th August 2004, 07:55
Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 20 2004, 02:32 PM
a true worker's state
What are you basing this on, aside from official insistence by Pyongyang that it is true?

Raisa
20th August 2004, 09:09
You can't deny that leader worship IS counterrevolutionary, reguardless.

Subversive Pessimist
20th August 2004, 09:21
I'm not saying there is "not" a "cult personality" around Kim Jong Il. And I am equally disgusted by personality cults as you are, but I do believe that the bourgeoise media has overestimated the importance of Kim Jong Il in North Korea (there are other people who has power in all countries, not just the "leader"), the degree of "worshipping", and the degree of brutality in North Korea. It's a shame that we leftists actually listen and believe what the bourgeoise media say. We refuse to believe anything the Western media says about Cuba, but we believe everything the Western media says about North Korea.

Far as I know, there is only one statue of Kim Il Sung in North Korea. Talk about worshipping!

Do what you want with this article. Believe it or not, it is at least worth reading

DPRK civilians admit faking papers on chemical weapons testing on humans
Four family members of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) said on Tuesday they faked the papers the BBC used as the basis for allegations that the DPRK has tested chemical weapons on prisoners.



Four family members of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) said on Tuesday they faked the papers the BBC used as the basis for allegations that the DPRK has tested chemical weapons on prisoners.

At a press conference at the People's Culture Palace in Pyongyang, 59-year-old Kang Pyong-sob, his wife, second son and daughter, of DPRK's South Hamgyong Province, told reporters that his eldest son Kang Song-guk, who escaped abroad, cheated them to fake the materials detailing the testing of chemical weapons on humans.

In February, the BBC quoted these documents saying that prisoners were seen gassed to death in the DPRK.

The DPRK later called the charges lies invented by the defectors.

Kang Song-guk fled abroad many years ago and helped his family escape abroad later. To make a living, Kang decided to make false materials to obtain money from human rights organizations, the four said at Tuesday's conference.

Kang vamped-up five fake documents with the help of his family on Nov. 25 last year, they said.

The names and experiences of the five people in the documents, except one who has since died, were completely made up, they said.

Although the "reliability" of the documents was greatly enhanced by their make-up, the seal, which Kang secretly had made,appears to be false apparently for its raw and careless design andlettering, the four noted.

They said they felt very sorry that the fake materials were mis-used by foreign media "to attack the fatherland".

They said they wanted to clarify the truth.


http://english.people.com.cn/200403/31/eng...31_138993.shtml (http://english.people.com.cn/200403/31/eng20040331_138993.shtml)

Louis Pio
20th August 2004, 10:09
Salvador I would like to hear what you think about the obviously non-socialist cult of the Kims. I mean it incorporates things from Konfucianism, why is that neccessary in a "true workers state"?

Hiero
20th August 2004, 10:56
http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002_files/image008.jpg

See Guerrilla22 right there is where saddam had chemical weopons.

Saint-Just
20th August 2004, 12:19
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 18 2004, 03:04 PM
That's not true. I can't find it at the moment, but it says right on their website that Americans are not allowed.

Can you tell me why you think it's O.K that nobody can set foot inside the country without a state appointed guide ?
It says Americans are not allowed because the American government will not allow them to visit the DPRK.

The DPRK does not want people visiting and using their visits as propaganda against the DPRK e.g. taking photographs of people with sad expressions or, visiting to create problems e.g. distributing imperialist propaganda, engaging in sabotage and espionage etc. Any person who comes to the DPRK is not immediatly given trust that they are not there to intentionally harm the country. It attempts to remain isolated from the outside world to a large extent, as such, anything coming in from outside is carefully controlled.

Hiero
20th August 2004, 13:21
Americans are allowed to visit the DPRK. US citizens can abtain visas through membership of the Korean Friendship Association. At the recent delegation everyone from the organisation had the chance to attend this years delegation except for US citizens due to the fact of US fault. They also sayed this year US citizens wont attend this time. Emphasizing that next year if planned early enough US citizens may be able to attend.

Salvador Allende
20th August 2004, 22:52
Kim Il-Sung is loved by the people. Nothing more. millions aren't forced to go and pay homage to the founder of their nation, they go by choice and because they love him. Think about if someone helped you rise up and guided you to freedom, equality and prosperity even after two massive wars. Would you not see him as the avatar of your successes? would you not love him as a great comrade?

Judging from reports of people who have visited the DPRK and sources from Russia and China I see the DPRK as a great people's state. Certainly, now we must look at Supreme Commander Kim Jong-Il and President Kim Yong-Nam as the leaders of the current movement. The policies of Juche allowed the DPRK to not fall into revisionism when the world movement fell into it beginning in the 1950's. The policies of Songun allowed the DPRK to survive the collapse of those revisionist nations in the late-80's and early-90's and continue to develop into a strong nation. The DPRK is the last surviving truly Socialist nation out there because they did not see Marxism-Leninism as dogma to be taken and applied everywhere regardless of situations. They saw it as a model for action and adapted Marxism-Leninism to the situation of Korea to create truly Korean Socialism based around the facts that present themselves. As Marxists we should see that and know that if a revolution were to hit in let's say Bolivia, Bolivia couldn't just copy old methods and expect success, they would have to adapt Marxism-Leninism and use it in accordance with the conditions to create a uniquely Bolivian Socialist state. Socialism must fit with the situation and conditions present in that country and can't be simply copied detail for detail off of something 50 years ago. As long as Socialism does not fall into revisionism (such as modern China) it should be looked at as a good Socialist nation that we should support as comrades in the cause.