Shoplifting [Archive]

Urban Rubble

13th August 2004, 02:05

I used to be a pretty professional shoplifter. I seriously used to binge on that shit. It got to the point where I could go weeks without paying for anything from a store. I would say I've easily gotten more than $10,000 worth of shit. However, anyone who regularly shoplifts will get caught, regardless of how careful or skilled you are at it. Also, I think that to progress to a more fair, just society, people have to live and act like decent people, and I don't care if you're only stealing from corporations, if you have the money to pay for something and you steal it, that's wrong. I mean, of course it's no big deal to steal from Coke or Nike, but ALL businesses aren't run by evil fascists. Not everything is so clear cut when it comes to right or wrong, is it O.K to steal a book or CD by an artist you respect ? Is it O.K to steal from smaller corporations or small compaines ? Where do you draw the lines ?

At any rate, I won't come down on people for doing it, but if you aren't doing it out of necessity then I believe you are harming society. I know that I was wrong to steal alot of the stuff that I did, especially considering the fact that I was (am) an able bodied person capable of supporting myself. Steal all you want, but don't kid yourself into thinking it's totally O.K and harmless, it isn't.

I wouldn't be above breaking inot a shop or something at night and stealing stuff, though I obviously wouldn't do it to someone's home.

God, I could tell you some crazy stories. Burglary is much easier, safer and profitable than shoplifting. I would never go into someone's home, but we used to break into all kinds of places. Schools are the best, but I've come to realize that's pretty fucked up to do, considering the state of public schools and the fact that my tax money pays for the things.

guerrillaradio

13th August 2004, 02:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 12:45 AM
coz not everyone is a dickhead like u
Y'know, at least when my cat leaves contributions like yours, she tries to do so where noone can see her, both for her dignity and mine...

guerrillaradio

13th August 2004, 02:20

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 13 2004, 02:05 AM
anyone who regularly shoplifts will get caught, regardless of how careful or skilled you are at it.
Werd. I'll have had a good run by that point though.

Also, I think that to progress to a more fair, just society, people have to live and act like decent people, and I don't care if you're only stealing from corporations, if you have the money to pay for something and you steal it, that's wrong.

Bullshit. Selling your soul for the "right" to eat is wrong.

Shoplifting isn't wrong, capitalism is. Shoplifting is a refusal to participate in a consumerist economy. Everything you buy merely increases your complicity within capitalism.

I mean, of course it's no big deal to steal from Coke or Nike, but ALL businesses aren't run by evil fascists. Not everything is so clear cut when it comes to right or wrong, is it O.K to steal a book or CD by an artist you respect ? Is it O.K to steal from smaller corporations or small compaines ? Where do you draw the lines ?

That's not for me to say. That's up to you. Every shoplifter I have met thus far only lifts from major chains.

99% of the music I buy is from hardcore distros, where the band and label have been paid a flat sum by the distro owner prior to buying the records wholesale. Ergo, whether or not I buy the record does not really matter to the band.

At any rate, I won't come down on people for doing it, but if you aren't doing it out of necessity then I believe you are harming society.

I believe liberal opinions like that have got harming society covered mate.

The incontrovertible fact is that if you post on this site, you think capitalism is wrong. There is no more obvious (nor mundane) example of capitalism than a chain store.

Change your theories into practise: shoplift.

guerrillaradio

13th August 2004, 02:27

Originally posted by el-[email protected] 13 2004, 01:21 AM
please, please give me advice, how do you get things to not beep when you go out the doors.
Most things will only beep if they have a security tag on them. Shops only consider it worth tagging an item when it's upwards of £8-9 (trust, I work in a supermarket). If it's any less, then the chances are you just gotta make a beeline for the door looking you bought that shit. If there's a tag, then either apply the foil method (as explained by Conor) or subtly take it off.

As for CCTV, it's checked so rarely. It's only really gonna be a problem after you've been busted and the security wanna press charges (they probably won't unless you're taking upwards of £10's worth of goods), and even then, it's fucking hard enough work trawling through all the footage to find it anyway.

However, just to be on the safe side, I would recommend being creative in the places you lift from. Don't go to the same Marks and Spencer next door 3 times a day like my buddy Jason's been doing for food for the last 2 weeks (he hasn't been busted yet, but still...).

dopediana

13th August 2004, 02:41

i get all my earrings from wal-mart for free. i'll go get some body jewelry, get some clothes, try them on, slip off the wrappers, hide them in the pockets of the clothes i tried on, put on the jewelry, and put the clothes back on the hangers. works like a charm. buy a pack of gum and walk out. i do it every now and then to keep my hand in. which means every week or two.

the thing is though, the employees steal. noone cares. you build up a rapport with the folks who work there, they let you. i give people "discounts" at my store all the time. there's one lady who i give her apples for 50 cents less per pound and she tells me one of her many stories about when she was the acid queen going to grateful dead concerts.

Pawn Power

13th August 2004, 02:42

I usually take food, like in a super market i will take a donut or a peice of fruit and eat it while i am shoping, not really a big deal.

apathy maybe

13th August 2004, 04:17

If you really want to get into shop lifting big time, work at the place. Supermarkets (even with CCTV) are easiest when you work there.

Chunking fruit out 'cause it slightly bad? Don't chuck it, take it home. Or give it to your local collective. Collectives are great ideas, and if you work at a supermarket, you can help 'em out a good deal.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

13th August 2004, 04:38

Most of the time I can't be arsed to nick stuff unless I'm hungry and have no money.
I used to go round the posh parts of town at night and sneak into people's unlocked houses and steal food, booze, cash, ciggarettes/cigars, basically anything that took my fancy. Not credit cards, too much bother.

guerrillaradio

13th August 2004, 12:51

My friend worked for his local Co-Op supermarket and got away with stealing £400 from the till (in several £80-90 installments) until they finally got round to busting him.

guerrillaradio

13th August 2004, 12:55

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 13 2004, 04:17 AM
If you really want to get into shop lifting big time, work at the place. Supermarkets (even with CCTV) are easiest when you work there.

Chunking fruit out 'cause it slightly bad? Don't chuck it, take it home. Or give it to your local collective. Collectives are great ideas, and if you work at a supermarket, you can help 'em out a good deal.
I would like more info on stealing from work. I've yet to try it.

As for "throwing out" food, you'll usually find that there are people willing to skip it (take it out from the trash). If you're working past around 10pm, look out for people loitering around your skips and give them what you can. The amount of good food thrown away by supermarkets is ridiculous.

DaCuBaN

13th August 2004, 13:00

It will never cease to amaze me that anyone can justify theft. As a kid, I used to steal sweets from the Menzies on my way to school but by my early teens I had more than grown out of this...

I know this comes of as condescending, but that was not my intention. I simply do not understand how justification can be reached working from my own experience in the matter, which was simply a matter of my immaturity and lack of understanding of the consequences - and I don't mean legally.

The Sloth

13th August 2004, 19:17

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 01:00 PM
It will never cease to amaze me that anyone can justify theft. As a kid, I used to steal sweets from the Menzies on my way to school but by my early teens I had more than grown out of this...

I know this comes of as condescending, but that was not my intention. I simply do not understand how justification can be reached working from my own experience in the matter, which was simply a matter of my immaturity and lack of understanding of the consequences - and I don't mean legally.
What's wrong with stealing from companies such as Wal-Mart or Coca-Cola?

Wal-Mart, for example, even if their profits increase by 25% over the next year will not increase the wages of their workers. If their profits decrease by 25%, they would still not decrease wages because they already pay less than any major corporation anyway. Anything less would be either bordering on breaking minimum wage laws, or losing employees to other companies.

In the end, who is hurt? The owner is hurt, slightly. The manager really isn't. The employees, and the consumers aren't.

Stealing from a small business, a corner store, etc. is a whole different story.

And, DaCuban, can't you use your reasoning to apply to a commuist revolution? I mean, it wouldn't be fair to seize the property of the capitalists because they "worked for it"?

Stealing from those big corporations is the same thing as socialist wealth distribution -- except it's taking place before a revolution, and on a much smaller scale.

BOZG

13th August 2004, 19:22

Haven't taken anything decent in a while, though I went through a period of stealing €400/500 worth of books, cds, games etc every week then got caught stealing a fucking magazine.

Individual

13th August 2004, 19:28

So you mean if I steal a Mars bar I will be a communist? Rad!

I am feeling rebelious now!

Guerrilla22

13th August 2004, 20:56

I know, wow, I'm a badass, I take candy bars and cokes, without paying for them! Woohoo!

However, it would be acceptable to steal food and give it to homeless people.

Urban Rubble

14th August 2004, 01:29

Werd. I'll have had a good run by that point though.

Yeah, I sure did. It still sucks to get caught though.

Bullshit. Selling your soul for the "right" to eat is wrong.

What ? Yes, it sucks that you have to sell your labor to a Capitalist in this society, but in every society, Anarchist, Socialist, you are going to have to work to eat. Get used to it, it sucks. I am fully concious of how I am getting fucked at work, but I still work. If everyone thought they could get shit for free our society would be far worse than it is now.

Shoplifting isn't wrong, capitalism is. Shoplifting is a refusal to participate in a consumerist economy. Everything you buy merely increases your complicity within capitalism.

Way to convince yourself, keep it up. Like I said, I'm not worried about someone stealing from a huge store because I'm worried about the owners.

That's not for me to say. That's up to you. Every shoplifter I have met thus far only lifts from major chains.

Most shoplifters I meet are lazy, greedy pussies who don't care who they get their free shit from. Perhaps it's different where you live. I have never met anyone who steals to get back at Capitalism, they do it because they are lazy ****s you would rather steal that work. The same kind of kids that would break into a house as soon as they saw a fre newspapers piling up. I find that most people who are willing to steal will steal from chain stores, small stores, maybe even homes. That's good that you're concious and only steal from large companies, most don't.

I believe liberal opinions like that have got harming society covered mate.

Jesus, liberal is starting to get thrown around like Stalinsts use "trot".

The incontrovertible fact is that if you post on this site, you think capitalism is wrong. There is no more obvious (nor mundane) example of capitalism than a chain store.

You're right, I agree. I'm more worried about the effect it has on me personally and the example I set. The effect on me is that I get lazy and get used to having things for free. Then, when you can't lift shit anymore, having to work is a real *****. The example I set means that when I am preaching my Socialist bullshit about how society has to be built around workers, and every able bodied person needs to work and contribute something, I'm going to look like a hypocrite running around stealing. Of course, you and I know that stealing from a Wal Mart is no big deal, perhaps it's even a good thing, but most people do not.

Change your theories into practise: shoplift.

Like I said, my shoplifting days are over, I'm sure yours will be soon someday. I've got bigger crimes to worry about than shoplifting. It would be fucked to get busted for stealing a book while I have [edited by Che y Marijuana: don't be stupid].

Like I said before, I am not worried about the poor Capitalists getting their mega stores stolen from. Please don't confuse me.I'm not really saying you shouldn't do it, I don't really care, and I don't think you're a lazy little prick like most shoplifters are. I know that you're concious of who you shoplife from. It's just not for me anymore, I just don't believe in it. And I think it's a big stretch to relate it somehow to social revolution.

Guest1

14th August 2004, 03:00

Guys, can we cool the details please. This is not a friendly conversation in a local bar, this is all stuff that will be here for years and can be called up at any time by interested parties.

CubanFox

14th August 2004, 03:24

I don't steal. I buy products from local, non-wanker companies.

I also admit a penchant for Kazaa and my CD burner ;)

And besides, you can get just about any old shit for practically nothing at charity shops. Help people and save money. What more could you ask?

DaCuBaN

14th August 2004, 06:29

What's wrong with stealing from companies such as Wal-Mart or Coca-Cola?

On the surface not a lot: One person stealing a can of juice isn't going to make a difference... you can scale that up quite some way before it has any real effect - but that's not the point. We all agree that the current system of employee and employer is exploitative, but you have to ask yourself the question: Who is really going to suffer?

It sure as hell won't be the owners who lose out. If shoplifting in a Wal-Mart (for example) continues, they will spend a certain amount of money on security, but if their attempts fail the business would simply close it's doors on that site due to non-profitability.

In short, stealing on the surface may in some bizarre way seems 'noble', but in reality you end up fucking over the arguably weakest members of society - those unqualified to do anything but work at the local wal-mart.

Most shoplifters I meet are lazy, greedy pussies who don't care who they get their free shit from. Perhaps it's different where you live. I have never met anyone who steals to get back at Capitalism, they do it because they are lazy ****s you would rather steal that work. The same kind of kids that would break into a house as soon as they saw a fre newspapers piling up. I find that most people who are willing to steal will steal from chain stores, small stores, maybe even homes

Indeed.

h&s

14th August 2004, 12:43

The only theft I do is [edited by Che y Marijuana: seriously, don't be stupid] Its only a tenner, but hey.

T_SP

14th August 2004, 13:46

Want £25? You live in the uk? Open a first direct account [edited by Che y Marijuana: I said stop it]

I cannot condone stealing of any description your fucking criminals and should be shot! :P

Stealing to give to the poor?? Who are you Robin Hood LOL :lol:

Guest1

14th August 2004, 15:24

I will delete this thread soon, since none of you have the fucking sense not to incriminate yourselves repeatedly. And this site by extension by the way. This is fucking serious shit, and not cool to talk about here.

Fidelbrand

14th August 2004, 15:56

We should beat them with morality and legitimacy, not in this cowardly way while risking your future.

Don't do it, comrades.

DaCuBaN

14th August 2004, 16:10

Exactly!

There's no such thing as a free lunch anyway even under communism. If you think otherwise, fuck off :P We'll just shoot you when you won't work anyway :D

DarkAngel

14th August 2004, 16:47

I wouldnt steal...even from big corps, because its indirect. Most lets say McDonals don't all belong to one motherfucker, its store owned usually by one or two people...hard working people like most of us here. And this is the case with most stores, even if they are big corps... Although I have no problem with stealing from bad guys [thiefs, drug dealers], just not companies, because they do have workers, and the losses may affect some of you guys...or your mother, father, friend, ect.. its pointless, because in the end it'll come back and bite you in the ass... just stick to the gang bangers...

DRS

14th August 2004, 17:10

Stealing abolishes the whole power of money and life itself, look at it, we work, to get money to buy stuff, by stealing you bypass all of it.

although i dont see the point of stealing, just get a job and buy it, you can always earn more money.

although i'm more on the poor sides of the scale, i still think stealing is stupid :S

Individual

14th August 2004, 17:38

You are all a bunch of lazy ass good for nothing teenagers.

Do you realize what your idealistic society is based upon? Working. And look at you, you selfish bastard. You are stealing in order to get back at working for this so called capitalism. Get over yourself, step into the real world, and get yourself a fucking job. Not everything can be handed to you!

Do you realize what you are doing by robbing and stealing? Oh, I'm just going to rob this house today.. Get me some jewelry for the pawn shop, maybe a crate of top ramen. Hey, it's no big deal; it's in the name of Marxism!

Bullshit. These people can be just like you.

You haven't an idea of what these people may be going through. You haven't an idea how fucking hard these people may have worked in order to get that. I can't wait until your fucking house gets robbed; you will be the first one posting a thread on here whining about how 'some little cappie bastard robbed my house, I fucking hate capitalism.'

You are all hypocrites of the cause. Please explain to me how your little craving for that liter of Coke, or that itching for a cool new pair of sneakers can in anyway be justified through your alleged political ideology.

You make the rest of us look bad, you selfish bastards.

Like I said, I fucking can't wait for each and every one of you to get robbed blind. Then I'll see just how cool it is to steal shit; all of you will be on here whining about how capitalism fucked you over. When in reality punks like yourself did.

Or wait, you probably wouldn't even have that computer to let all of us know.

What do you guys know about changing this world..

Not a fucking thing.

Hampton

14th August 2004, 17:50

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Hampton/cards_disillusioned.jpg

Urban Rubble

14th August 2004, 18:23

First of all. CyM, stop editing people's posts. It's become fairly clear that you don't have a clue as to what the law says about this type of thing, so before you delete people's shit and call them stupid perhaps you should learn a few things.

1. I can say whatever I feel like on the internet and it cannot be used in ANY way in court against me. The one exception is discussing terrorism and the overthrow of the current system thanks to the patriot act. All these posts of kids talking about bringing about revolution and arming themselves and overthrowing capitalism are far more incriminating than any admission that I GROW POT or that I STOLE A BOOK FROM BORDERS ON AUGUST 1st OF 2002. They cannot use any of that. I can sit here and say I have basement full of dead hookers if I want, as long as it isn't about terrorism or revolution it's fine.

2. Do you really think that a government agent is going to waste all that time and energy organizing a bust because he read on an internet message board that I grow pot ? First, he woul dhave to determine if I was just some kid talking shit on the internet, then he would have to determine whether I am growing 4 plants or 400 (you will never get busted for anything under 10 plants in this state). Then, he would have to determine if I was growing from the location I am posting from, somewhere else, or outside. I don't think they're going to send someone to tail me over that. Then, they'd have to get a warrant, contact the Washington DEA and organize a bust. Do you honestly think any of that is going to happen ? There is a website, www.overgrow.com. They have a forum with members that post pictures of their industrial, 300+ plant grow ops. Not one person has ever been busted due to talking on that site. You're insane if you think it's dangerous to discuss details of a crime on this site, especially condiering that the very basis of this site is illegal in itself.

And don't delete this shit. You are really over paraniod. You should be worried about people suggesting that someone spend their $400 dollars on an automatic rifle, you should be worried about someone telling someone else to go kill a cop, you should be worried about the topics little kids start asking how to "start a revolution". That is far more dangerous than me admitting the fact that I have pot growing (in 3 different places ! woohoo!).

Now, AQ, I agree with some of what you said, though I think the tone should be changed. I don't think it necessarilly means that they're bad kids, just probably a bit lazy :D . And yes, justifying it by saying you're striking a blow at Capitalism is very stupid. But come on, it's understandable why people do it. We live in the most materialistic society on earth. We're bombarded every day by messages that tell us, "The more stuff you have, the cooler you are", it's ingrained into our heads whether we're leftists or not. It doesn't suprise me at all that so many young people steal, and it doesn't mean they're bad people. They'll get over it one day.

And remember, none of them said it was O.K to go rob a house. I mean, I still disagree with stealing from a Wal Mart, but they aren't saying go steal from houses so don't act like if that happens they'll be getting what they deserve.

RedAnarchist

14th August 2004, 18:43

Wouldnt shoplifting make the stores just put their prices up due to lost goods, which will make stuff more expensive and maybe even some workers redundant.

Guest1

14th August 2004, 23:57

Very well. I'm still iffy about this whole thread, but I'll stop reading it.

Guerrilla22

15th August 2004, 02:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 01:46 PM

Stealing to give to the poor?? Who are you Robin Hood LOL :lol:
In fact, I am Robin Hood.

guerrillaradio

15th August 2004, 02:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 06:43 PM
Wouldnt shoplifting make the stores just put their prices up due to lost goods, which will make stuff more expensive and maybe even some workers redundant.
No.

That is just what they want you to believe. They also attempt to justify charging £15 for a CD cos 4 or 5 mates will copy it off you, which is the worst logic I ever heard. Maybe they wouldn't copy it if the price was reasonable??

Seriously though, the shit I've read on this thread has gone a long way towards deflating the positivity and energy I felt after spending 2 weeks squatting with proactive, thoughtful and awesome anarchists.

It seems that the vast majority of Che-Lives is willing to settle for life under capitalism. It seems that their dreams are not dreams at all, but rationalised and conditioned risk judgements, mainly influenced by factors as irrelevant as likelihood. Fuck that man, justice has nothing to do with possibility. Something is injust whatever its environment and surroundings.

My point is: don't lay back and make excuses for your exploitation. Do you not hate the fact that you are obliged to waste your days working in order to see another day?? Life is not surviving, it is far more than that. I can foresee of plenty of societies in which the only "work" one would have to do in order to eat would be "work" necessary to find and provide food. That is very much possible. The point is whether that is what you desire. (Incidentally, I'm not a primitivist, so don't turn this into a discussion concerning that theory.)

We seem to have lost all hope (not to mention desire) for a truly fair system, instead settling for compromises such as repressive dictatorships (that we are assured are only "temporary"), which keeps itself afloat by paying lip service to a "workers' state". That is no justice, that is just exploitation by another name (usually state capitalism).

If you wanna liberate the world from capitalism, then good luck and tell me where I can help. If you wanna decrease the crushing load of exploitation that buckles your back, then the answer is as simple as seemingly mundane and "immature" acts such as shoplifting, squatting, skipping (or dumpster diving). Apart from the physical benefits this also has an interesting psycological effect on you. In short, you quit thinking like a capitalist. Quit following the laws of mathematical abstracts such as money and wages, laws that they made and only serve to repress you. They are only as real as you choose to make them.

So I urge each and everyone of you to abandon your complicity to an unfair system and take what you need at its just price: nothing.

Individual

15th August 2004, 02:50

Sorry to say it goes more along the lines of this..

In order to survive in any, I repeat, any society. You have to work.

The fact that you were raised in expectance of getting things for free is not my problem. The rest of humanity must work in order to survive.

You don't like those circumstances, then I'll see your ass in the paper marked "Criminal Sentencing".

When you realize what hard work is, when you get out of that protective shell that you must live under, you will realize that no matter the society you live under; everyone must work.

Do you not hate the fact that you are obliged to waste your days working in order to see another day??

No, here's the deal.

Do you not hate the fact that even under a Marxist/Anarcho state you must work anyhow.

I don't know of the anarchists you gather around, but they must have gotten the wrong idea from that punk music you speak so much about.

Life isn't a free-be. I don't hand you anything for me, and I can sure as hell bet you do nothing for me for free.

You do realize what Marxism is in fact based upon.. Do you?

Working.

Again, working.

I didn't realize that your dreams of revolution started by being as selfish as to wish upon everything for free.

I didn't realize that thousands of employees work all fucking day so that you can get your free bottle of coke. Or that your beloved punk rock bands work their ass off recording so that you can steal the little profit that they could make.

You selfish, selfish bastard.

While I would love to see myself leaving under an equal state of living. I'm not going to waste, yes waste my life stealing candy bars thinking that I am in some how bringing about a Marxist state.

I've come this far in life to realize that stealing cds, candy bars, and sneakers is not worth spending my life, the life I try not to spend just surviving ( :huh: ), to get my ass thrown in jail.

If you think you'd be given any lesser punishment for theft under a Marxist society, you truly must be kidding yourself.

You have tried to turn this around in justification of your lack of understanding of survival under any society. You have tried to turn this into your own form of revolution, that by somehow stealing worthless crap from stores is going to change the world. Let's not turn around the fact that everything you are in fact practicing is in support of your complete selfishness.

Get a job.

guerrillaradio

15th August 2004, 11:39

Man you're an asshole.

I have a job.

I already explained how I buy hardcore music.

I'm not a Marxist. Fuck Marx. In fact, fuck all theorists. I'm sick of the left wing becoming some kinda "intellectual" backslapping Bloomsbury Club where people have to read books in order to understand Marxist terminology. A bunch of geeks in their college library sniggering over their superiority won't bring about lasting change.

And neither will you. Not for the better anyhow.

Calling me selfish when you think it fair that people have to whore themselves in order to buy a loaf of fucking bread is ridiculously illogical. But then again, I'm a bum hippie right?? I'm just jealous of those richer than me no??

Whose side are you on Holmes??

DaCuBaN

15th August 2004, 12:14

So I urge each and everyone of you to abandon your complicity to an unfair system and take what you need at its just price: nothing.

There is no such thing as a free lunch

Everything has a value damnit! Irregardless of the method of it's production, it's still fundamentally other people you are fucking over. At it's core, that is egoism: Me, me, me!

'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction'
Rule of the damned universe. Einstein furthered this with his theory of relativity and you'd be amazed how well it applies to sociological - and personal - concerns.

They also attempt to justify charging £15 for a CD cos 4 or 5 mates will copy it off you, which is the worst logic I ever heard

For crying out loud, I've throttled friends for being this obtuse. This is capitalism: They do not require any justification whatsoever

It seems that the vast majority of Che-Lives is willing to settle for life under capitalism. It seems that their dreams are not dreams at all, but rationalised and conditioned risk judgements, mainly influenced by factors as irrelevant as likelihood. Fuck that man, justice has nothing to do with possibility. Something is injust whatever its environment and surroundings.

If you seriously think that you will make the slightest bit of difference by nicking CD's, bottles of coke and so on then be my guest. Remember however your real difference is made in utterly discrediting social politics.

My point is: don't lay back and make excuses for your exploitation. Do you not hate the fact that you are obliged to waste your days working in order to see another day?? Life is not surviving, it is far more than that.

Actually, life and survival are synonymous. Our expanded cognitive(sp?) abilities have put us in the position where we're trying to find reason in madness - or do you 'fuck' the theory of evolution too?

I can foresee of plenty of societies in which the only "work" one would have to do in order to eat would be "work" necessary to find and provide food. That is very much possible. The point is whether that is what you desire. (Incidentally, I'm not a primitivist, so don't turn this into a discussion concerning that theory.)

You can't have it both ways man, either you accept the burden of primitivism that this paragraph highlights, or reject it and retract above paragraph too.

We seem to have lost all hope (not to mention desire) for a truly fair system, instead settling for compromises such as repressive dictatorships (that we are assured are only "temporary"), which keeps itself afloat by paying lip service to a "workers' state". That is no justice, that is just exploitation by another name (usually state capitalism).

When you walk into a shop, pick something off the shelf and walk out again, you are committing injustice. You have not assisted in it's production, you have not renumerated the owner in any way. I repeat There is no such thing as a free lunch!

If you wanna liberate the world from capitalism, then good luck and tell me where I can help.

Read, learn, spread the word. Bad ideas do not bear close scrutiny: We have an idea that does - all we really need to do is propogate it fully, and remove the psychological barriers many hold against it.

If you wanna decrease the crushing load of exploitation that buckles your back, then the answer is as simple as seemingly mundane and "immature" acts such as shoplifting, squatting, skipping (or dumpster diving).

Sure, it helps you. Is this the only effect it has?

Apart from the physical benefits this also has an interesting psycological effect on you. In short, you quit thinking like a capitalist. Quit following the laws of mathematical abstracts such as money and wages, laws that they made and only serve to repress you. They are only as real as you choose to make them.

The entire world is only as real as you choose to make it. The fact of the matter is whilst you live in a capital society, it's objective quality is capital and the products it produces - whether you like it or not. Sure, you can say that anyone who supports capital endeavours(sp?) is 'cannon fodder' or 'collatoral damage' - but something tells me you're just not thinking about consequences.

I certainly hope that to be the case at any rate.

So I urge each and everyone of you to abandon your complicity to an unfair system and take what you need at its just price: nothing

I repeat: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH!

Kez

15th August 2004, 16:30

middle class cockney wide boy.

You nick somethin off me and i swear i'll knock seven shades of shit outta you, fuckin thief.

No doubt we are all "sqaures" for not being thieves. and that we should all "freak out" more often or some bollocks.

Losers of life steal, people who cower from the problem. Stop cheatin you yellow belly middle class ****, and fight capitalism. Bellend.

Did i mention your a thief?

*CHANTS* THIEF!! THIEF!! THIEF!!

DaCuBaN

15th August 2004, 16:34

*picks up chant*

commiecrusader

15th August 2004, 16:39

stealing is pointless. it does nothing to contribute to the downfall of capitalism and is ultimately more likely to lead to you being put in prison where you can do nothing, than destroy capitalists. not to mention it makes life for the workers in the shops more unpleasant than they already are by forcing shop workers to put themselves in danger by confronting the thief or risk their job and livelihood by doing nothing.

if you want to tramp it up by all means squat or whatever but just cos your not fitting in with capitalism doesnt give you the right to leech of people who do.

Kez

15th August 2004, 18:11

leech, the perfect term for guerillaradio, a middle class leech, leeching off the working class off whom he thieves from.

Invader Zim

15th August 2004, 18:50

I dont steal.

commiecrusader

15th August 2004, 18:54

no one said you thieved did they?

Individual

15th August 2004, 19:55

I'm not a Marxist. Fuck Marx. In fact, fuck all theorists. I'm sick of the left wing becoming some kinda "intellectual" backslapping Bloomsbury Club where people have to read books in order to understand Marxist terminology. A bunch of geeks in their college library sniggering over their superiority won't bring about lasting change.

And neither will you. Not for the better anyhow.

Now you are starting to make sense. :)

wet blanket

15th August 2004, 21:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 11:39 AM
Man you're an asshole.

I have a job.

I already explained how I buy hardcore music.

I'm not a Marxist. Fuck Marx. In fact, fuck all theorists. I'm sick of the left wing becoming some kinda "intellectual" backslapping Bloomsbury Club where people have to read books in order to understand Marxist terminology. A bunch of geeks in their college library sniggering over their superiority won't bring about lasting change.

And neither will you. Not for the better anyhow.

Calling me selfish when you think it fair that people have to whore themselves in order to buy a loaf of fucking bread is ridiculously illogical. But then again, I'm a bum hippie right?? I'm just jealous of those richer than me no??

Whose side are you on Holmes??
You're a real tough-guy.
Stealing shit you don't need from stores and calling people geeks on internet forums. What a fucking badass.
Shit, you don't need any books, you got it all figured out lifting consumer good from department stores. Hats off brother.

Invader Zim

15th August 2004, 21:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 07:54 PM
no one said you thieved did they?
In a thread about shop lifting, its a rather to the point answer.

middle class cockney wide boy.

At least he doesnt use the term "bellend". Kamo always has been a miserable bastard.

I change my mind, i'm no thief i'm a pirate!

http://studentweb.tulane.edu/~twiggins/antagonists/hook.jpg

I kidnap lost children from never land, and do... stuff. I never did work out exactly why captain hook was after peter pan and the lost children. Perhaps its an anti-paedophile message.

Djehuti

16th August 2004, 01:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 11:53 PM
Easy as fuck.

#1 Target large corporations/chain stores.

#2 Try to only take what you need (ie food etc...reduces your risk of being caught)

#3 Walk in the store

#4 Take that shit off the shelf

#5 Walk around a bit

#6 Open it up and eat/drink (while inside the store)

#7 Look calm and confident

#8 You've beaten the system. Fuck yeah.

Seriously, if you don't shoplift, I wanna know why.
I agree! Winona Ryder is my idol. :)

Shoplifting is really great. Have stolen stuff for several thousand dollars and I havent even been close to get caught. I steal as much as I can, i have a crappy income and I dont want to spend it on food and other stuff, i want to do something fun you know. I respect if people wont shoplift, thats OK for me. But when I hear socialists say that shoplifting is bad...then Iam almost ashamed. Shoplifting is really communism in a miniature, ofcource we cant do a revolution by shoplifting, thats utopian but theft can without doubt be an important part of the struggle against capitalism. Capitalism wont fall if we keep working, but you still will need money if you stop working. And really, almost every worker shoplifts. Iam 100% that most of you, or your parents have stolen a couple of time, from work, or from the stores, etc. One intresting fact is that shoplifting is so common among our elders, I never really believed it at first, but it is true, and friends that have worked at stores have confirmed it. Well, it is not really so strange that old people steal, you know how many of the old people are living, in povertry. And almost all workers I have met have stolen from his workplace, and many do so often. Theft is a great thing really, it not only makes life easier, it do also undermine the respect for capitalism, state, law and order. And that is great.

Djehuti

16th August 2004, 01:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 06:43 PM
Wouldnt shoplifting make the stores just put their prices up due to lost goods, which will make stuff more expensive and maybe even some workers redundant.
With that way of seeing things we can stop the whole damn classtruggle.
With the same logic, strikes for example is a bad thin - the capitalists loose money, and have to regain it in some other way.

And really, it aint true. The prices is allready as high as the capitalists dare to put them, except if they have deliberatly lowered them in hope of attracting consumers that would otherwise buy from another store.

And if they try to put the prices higher, if they decide it is worth the risk, it would only result in more thefts. Study how the record companies handled the increasing piracy for example, instead of lowering the prices to make more people buy the CD:s they made the prices higher...now...almost everyone download music.

Guerrilla22

16th August 2004, 01:27

Stealing candy bars and soda isn't causing disorder, anyone who thinks this, is just some punk, wannabe kid, who thinks anarchy is cool, because Johnny Rotten sang about it.

petty shoplifting is something kids do for kicks, because it makes them feel like badasses to know that they took something that cost a dollar, without paying for it.

If you wanna cause disorder, then steal a wrecking ball machine and go level a strip mall.

Reuben

16th August 2004, 07:12

*racks his brain trying to think of an oppressive social system that has been brought down by mass shoplifting as opposed to collective mass action*

CubanFox

16th August 2004, 07:20

Originally posted by "Djehuti"+--> ("Djehuti")With the same logic, strikes for example is a bad thin[g] - the capitalists loose money, and have to regain it in some other way.[/b]

Strikes are a show of working class strength and has played a major role in class struggle; stealing lollies is neither, I'm afraid. The two aren't terribly comparable.

"Reuben"
*racks his brain trying to think of an oppressive social system that has been brought down by mass shoplifting as opposed to collective mass action*

Spot on, comrade.

Djehuti

16th August 2004, 15:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 07:20 AM
Strikes are a show of working class strength and has played a major role in class struggle; stealing lollies is neither, I'm afraid. The two aren't terribly comparable.

Read for example "Hamburgers vs Value", a great text about struggle against value on a small hamburger bar.

http://www.riff-raff.se/english/articles/h...s_vs_value.html (http://www.riff-raff.se/english/articles/html/3_burgers_vs_value.html)

Or this text about everyday resistance in a Swedish bakery:
http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/kolin.../en/en_swba.htm (http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/kolinko/prols/en/en_swba.htm)
The working class have, and are still using theft in the classtruggle, do I agree that theft have not played as important role as strikes, or even near...yet.

One of the lefts greatest mistakes is that we traditionally have focused all to much on big flashy struggles like strikes, riots, demonstrations, etc and almost forgot to even study the, today probably most important part of the class struggle - the faceless resistance, as some Indian group called it. The small, hidden everyday struggles like obstruktion for an example. Wild strikes are not really something that come like a flash from a clear heaven, though it seems so to the bourgeoisie and large parts of the left. You have to study the small, everyday struggles to really understand the class struggle.

DRS

16th August 2004, 16:56

Lets just take it NO ONE WILL EVER BE FREE.

we are all slaves to the goverments that force us to do their manual labour to profit them so we can scrape in the penuts so we can have enough money to feed ourselves.

its the way things are, we are at the bottom of the triangle, we keep everything going steady, if we all stopped working, countries would fall and the world would turn into an anarcists paradise

DaCuBaN

16th August 2004, 17:05

I never realised this site was populated by so many fucking tea-leafs :angry:

Stealing isn't some 'bold statement' against capitalism: it's theft - it's depriving another for personal benefit

It's practically distilled capitalism! I can't believe I'm reading this utter rubbish on a 'leftist' message board.

I'm beginning to think those firing squads are going to be very necessary...

Guerrilla22

16th August 2004, 20:03

if we all stopped working, countries would fall and the world would turn into an anarcists paradise

no, everyone would starve to death and die because nothing was being produced. Anarchism doesn't stand for not working and sitting on your ass.

T_SP

16th August 2004, 20:11

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 02:46 PM
Want £25? You live in the uk? Open a first direct account [edited by Che y Marijuana: I said stop it]

I cannot condone stealing of any description your fucking criminals and should be shot! :P

Stealing to give to the poor?? Who are you Robin Hood LOL :lol:
Che y this is perfectly legitimate!! Stop being so paranoid!!! un edit it please!!!

guerrillaradio

16th August 2004, 21:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 12:14 PM
Everything has a value damnit! Irregardless of the method of it's production, it's still fundamentally other people you are fucking over.
What, so I should give a fuck about Marks and Spencer when I steal orange juice from them?? What the fuck??

This is capitalism: They do not require any justification whatsoever

So why defend it?? Why further its advance by playing your part in the money chain??

If you seriously think that you will make the slightest bit of difference by nicking CD's, bottles of coke and so on then be my guest. Remember however your real difference is made in utterly discrediting social politics.

Who mentioned Coke and CDs?? Why are you second guessing what I lift??

And since when should every action be committed to "revolution"?? Hey, guess what fella, neither you nor I will live to see any sort of "emancipation" in this country on a large scale. That said, a good way to emancipate the few who recognise the faults within capitalism is to aid them in finding their own ways to escape its clutches. Such as shoplifting. Booyah. Of course, if the entire world was to shoplift, money would be rendered irrelevant, but that's kinda unlikely.

However, if you think you are "making a difference" by financially supporting capitalism then you are more deluded than I.

Actually, life and survival are synonymous.

Yeah, yeah, well done...I bet you chuckled at your own intelligence at being able to come up with that excellent piece of semantics. Why must you bludgeon any meaning out of my words??

You can't have it both ways man, either you accept the burden of primitivism that this paragraph highlights, or reject it and retract above paragraph too.

Nah mate.

It was put to me that in any society one would have to work for food. I was retorting with examples where that is not the case.

When you walk into a shop, pick something off the shelf and walk out again, you are committing injustice. You have not assisted in it's production, you have not renumerated the owner in any way.

A Marxist talking about property?? Oh sweet Jesus...

The world does not belong to anyone. It belongs to everyone. It is an injustice for someone to lay claim to a raw material, a theory, a book, a piece of food. Therefore, it is not an injustice for someone to take what they need.

I repeat There is no such thing as a free lunch!

That is a line used in business circles. Please don't drag us all down by attempting to claim it has any real significance or meaning.

The entire world is only as real as you choose to make it. The fact of the matter is whilst you live in a capital society, it's objective quality is capital and the products it produces - whether you like it or not.

No.

I will not be dictated by abstractions. More importantly, I refuse to told to "like or lump" capitalism by a fucking communist (assuming that you are).

This thread is somewhat terrifying.

guerrillaradio

16th August 2004, 21:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 04:30 PM
middle class cockney wide boy.

You nick somethin off me and i swear i'll knock seven shades of shit outta you, fuckin thief.

No doubt we are all "sqaures" for not being thieves. and that we should all "freak out" more often or some bollocks.

Losers of life steal, people who cower from the problem. Stop cheatin you yellow belly middle class ****, and fight capitalism. Bellend.

Did i mention your a thief?

*CHANTS* THIEF!! THIEF!! THIEF!!
Didn't you once use "Arab" as an insult??

If so, how come you're still posting here??

Moreover, how come people are joining in your chants??

guerrillaradio

16th August 2004, 21:10

Originally posted by wet [email protected] 15 2004, 09:22 PM
You're a real tough-guy.

If I'm a tough guy, what does that make Kamo, who apparently is gonna "beat seven shades of shit" outta me??

Selective sight anyone??

guerrillaradio

16th August 2004, 21:13

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 04:39 PM
just cos your not fitting in with capitalism doesnt give you the right to leech of people who do.
What the fuck man??

Come the "revolution", are you gonna sit back and let those who have profited from capitalism keep their flashy cars and mansions?? Fuck no, you'll take that shit back!!

That is one of the worst things I've ever heard. You all appear to have real distorted and inconsistent issues with capitalism.

guerrillaradio

16th August 2004, 21:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 05:05 PM
Stealing isn't some 'bold statement' against capitalism: it's theft - it's depriving another for personal benefit
Depriving another of what?? Profit??
And at what point does "personal benefit" meet "personal need"??

Invader Zim

16th August 2004, 21:34

GR, I hate to critisise but couldn't you have used just one post for that past 5?

Didn't you once use "Arab" as an insult??

yep, he called me a "fucking arab", I did have it in my sig until recently, until it because blindingly obvious that racism is tolerated if it comes from someone as pathetic as Kez, who just squeals like a stuck pig everytime someone dares to disagree. I dont think anyone can actually be bothered to piss around with the lad anymore.

Louis Pio

16th August 2004, 21:44

Now who's whinning...
Man this is becoming incrasingly pathetic.

Invader Zim

16th August 2004, 21:49

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:44 PM
Now who's whinning...
Man this is becoming incrasingly pathetic.
Whine? Moi? Never, I'm just pointing out pertinent facts about Kamo.

Louis Pio

16th August 2004, 21:54

Yes you are whinning as you have been doing quite often lately. I especially loved the thread on Ireland, what I do however not enjoy is that you make a big fuzz out of it. It's well pathetic...

Invader Zim

16th August 2004, 21:59

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:54 PM
Yes you are whinning as you have been doing quite often lately. I especially loved the thread on Ireland, what I do however not enjoy is that you make a big fuzz out of it. It's well pathetic...
coming from you I take it as a compliment.

Oh and I though I was more or less on par with everyone else in the "pathetic" department, as you can see.

Celticsocialist: -

Now you`re just being daft.

[Prior to me insulting anyone.]

Don`t be stupid all your life Enigma.

Grow up son

[all that "son", "boy" stuff was in direct retaliation to that remark.]

Your point about the vikings,romans etc was fucking stupid.

Don`t be a mug all your life son.

Keep up son.

Enigma son,

And stop getting your breeks in a twist about this.

Then again you are what you are eh Kitten?

And Enigma, don`t call me son, son. get your own patter Kitten.

[Ironic, considering that it was actually he who started that line of flaming.]

Why won`t you answer the question Enema?

You can call me anything you like Kitten, just don`t copy my patter. And Mommy? Where the fuck are you from?

Don`t worry Enema. It shows

Enema why do you have to keep on with your ""read the act of union" answer when its fuck all to do with this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oglach McGlinchey's turn

The ignorance on this board is astonishing.

That's an insane thing to say, even for a trendy lefty.

you are either wilfully ignorant or an imperialist.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or glorious moderator and leader: -

There's a big fucking joke if ever I've read one.

Did you even understand the point being made?

...Said the man from the Daily Mail.

But I suppose I should have expected a comment like that from an apologist for British imperialism.

"If you are the present of our movement, then no wonder it's a joke",

commiecrusader

16th August 2004, 22:23

guerillaradio, you said this:

QUOTE (commiecrusader @ Aug 15 2004, 04:39 PM)
just cos your not fitting in with capitalism doesnt give you the right to leech of people who do.

What the fuck man??

Come the "revolution", are you gonna sit back and let those who have profited from capitalism keep their flashy cars and mansions?? Fuck no, you'll take that shit back!!

i dont remember ever saying that the people who have profited from their capitalism were gonna keep their stuff. but shoplifting does leech not only from the owners of the companies, but the people who worked to produce whatever it is you 'lift', and the workers in whatever stores you steal from.

where i work, if too much stock has been unaccountably lost, e.g. lifted, everyone has to give money from their wages. how the fuck is that fair you selfish little townie? however you try and justify your actions, shoplifting is wrong, is not communist/socialist, and will not contribute to the downfall of capitalism. if you wanna do it then fine, but dont claim your doing it because your left-wing, and i hope you get caught. you give us all a bad name.

Louis Pio

16th August 2004, 22:24

Now my point was don't throw stones when you live in a glasshouse. But by all means go ahead, it's quite fun looking at. It's not helping that image of "freethinker" and "intellectual" you are trying to build though

Kez

16th August 2004, 22:31

fuck me, what bollocks

listen wideboy, fuck off, rob as much as u want, soon enough, you'll rob one worker too much, and they'll knock fuck out of u, so keep it up, middle class penis.
i hope someone robs those bohemian clothes u wear, like a fucking muppet. You are a clown, continue to make people laugh, nobwipe.

As for you enigma, ur a fucking joke, im so glad che-lives isnt representative of the Leftist people in society, otherwise i would have given up by now.

The left doesnt need tossers like you, leeching off the true workers, and becoming an obstacle for progression.

Youve done fuck all for the movement
Your doing fuck all for the movement
And you'll most likely do fuck all for the movement

keep working at some charity and see if that changes anything, Tsar Nicholas' wife worked for charity during WW1, it did nothing for the soldiers, only the bolsheviks solved their problem. The bolsheviks also later sorted her out, so if i were you, id leave quietly before you talk any more bollocks, aright kidda?

guerrillaradio

16th August 2004, 22:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:23 PM
where i work, if too much stock has been unaccountably lost, e.g. lifted, everyone has to give money from their wages. how the fuck is that fair you selfish little townie?
Of course those affected will respond with repression and depriving others. That's how capitalism survives. It's besides the point really. Moreover, if shoplifting is so ineffective, how come shops find it necessary to do such things??

And enough with this "townie" nonsense. If that's how you view the "working class" (and let's be honest, so called "townies" are just uneducated and ignorant elements of the working class), then you're a fucking awful left winger. I live in the country anyway.

however you try and justify your actions, shoplifting is wrong, is not communist/socialist

Well it could be argued that it is anarchism in practise, but I really couldn't care whether or not that is the case.

and will not contribute to the downfall of capitalism.

Simply not true. If done en masse, I can see it completely altering the face of society.

if you wanna do it then fine, but dont claim your doing it because your left-wing, and i hope you get caught. you give us all a bad name.

Oh boohoo. Che-Lives Forum brought into disrepute. Who gives a shit. Not like the majority of this site actually convert their words into actions anyhow.

commiecrusader

16th August 2004, 22:55

your head is so far up your own ass. by townie, i dont mean it as in 'a member of the working class' since thats what i am, seing as i work in an all but minimum wage job, but simply a little prick, such as those members of the working class who do, for whatever reason, act like little pricks.

Of course those affected will respond with repression and depriving others. That's how capitalism survives. It's besides the point really. Moreover, if shoplifting is so ineffective, how come shops find it necessary to do such things??

the shops find it necessary because they're capitalist and can't bear to lose their money. but just because of that fact how does that give you the right to make people like me suffer further because of their and your selfishness and greed.

Oh boohoo. Che-Lives Forum brought into disrepute. Who gives a shit. Not like the majority of this site actually convert their words into actions anyhow.
i didnt mean people on Che-lives, i meant leftists in general. and shoplifting isnt converting leftist words into actions anyway, unless some messed up leftist said that forcing the capitalists to be harder on their workers and suppliers was the way to go.

Djehuti

17th August 2004, 00:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:23 PM
however you try and justify your actions, shoplifting is wrong, is not communist/socialist, and will not contribute to the downfall of capitalism. if you wanna do it then fine, but dont claim your doing it because your left-wing, and i hope you get caught. you give us all a bad name.
Shit, this site is really full of liberal legalist populist moralists.
Why not join the social democrats right on?

I have no respect for those who respect the law because it is the law.
They should read some Marx, he is great. But i respect if people choose to obey the law by tactical reasons. I do so 99% of the time. To disobey the law should never be an end in itself. Those who think so are idiots.

And it is also extremly stupid to act according to what gives us the best repetation.
If we should always act in a way that the majority will like we will never achive a shit. And even worse, we might find ourselfs dependent on the bourgeoise media.
We should not stop the class struggle because it gives us a bad reputation, that is opportunistic and anti-communist.

Well, back to shoplifting. I really dont see the problem with shoplifting.
I havent heard a single valid argument against shoplifting. Really.
I respect people who wont shoplift, but "marxists" who condemn it...why?

Iam sure most commies wont mind if a poor mother steals from work to feed her children, etc. I hope no one does. But really, i dont mind if some teenager punk steal to be "though" either...i dont care. Its not the whole world, but the more that steals the bether imho.

There is something called "proletarian shoplifting", it was an important part during the revolt in Italy from -68 to -79 or something like that. It was gangs of proletarians that stormed stores and stole alot of stuff and gave it for free in the poor parts of the cities.

I recomend you to read Marius Jacobs speach infor the court in Somme 8th mars 1905. But I only have it in french and swedish. Good text nevertheless.

Reuben

17th August 2004, 00:11

so do you think the best way to defeat capitalism is to behave like a capitalist, IE to appropriate socieities wealth without working to produce any value

Djehuti

17th August 2004, 00:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:11 AM
so do you think the best way to defeat capitalism is to behave like a capitalist, IE to appropriate socieities wealth without working to produce any value
Behave like a capitalist? Eh?

The capitalists is not the enemy, btw, capitalism is.
And really, we do not behave like a capitalist.

Communism is the negation of the proletarians, and in extension the negation of capital, the bourgeoisie and the class society as a whole. But the first thing we have to abolish is the proletarians. We need to cease being labour, and become a class. In the process of ceasing being labour we might have to find other ways to provide ourselfs with the stuff we need. Theft might aid really, before we can establish our class dicatorship.

guerrillaradio

17th August 2004, 01:02

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:11 AM
so do you think the best way to defeat capitalism is to behave like a capitalist, IE to appropriate socieities wealth without working to produce any value
Reuben that's a terrible post. You're far too intelligent for that. I'll assume your pet dog hijacked the PC or something.

It's not about "the best way to defeat capitalism". It doesn't have to be about defeating capitalism. Shoplifting can be as simple as an act of necessity. If you wanna argue that it is a form of tactical protest, then do it. To me, it's just undermining the exploitation I suffer at work.

Of course, the majority of communists won't understand this, since they think jobs are awesome. Or something. Personally, I can think of more fulfilling ways to spend my time than being enslaved by some faceless entity (does the average worker really care if his boss is a rich capitalist or the state??), but that makes me a gypsy or something. I should probably get a job, cut my hair and quit listening to that stupid terrorist music.

Why doesn't this forum join the Democrat party?? I mean, seriously.

Invader Zim

17th August 2004, 06:42

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:31 PM
As for you enigma, ur a fucking joke, im so glad che-lives isnt representative of the Leftist people in society, otherwise i would have given up by now.

The left doesnt need tossers like you, leeching off the true workers, and becoming an obstacle for progression.

Youve done fuck all for the movement
Your doing fuck all for the movement
And you'll most likely do fuck all for the movement

keep working at some charity and see if that changes anything, Tsar Nicholas' wife worked for charity during WW1, it did nothing for the soldiers, only the bolsheviks solved their problem. The bolsheviks also later sorted her out, so if i were you, id leave quietly before you talk any more bollocks, aright kidda?
As for you enigma, ur a fucking joke,

Pots and kettles come to mind.

The left doesnt need tossers like you, leeching off the true workers, and becoming an obstacle for progression.

An obstical for progression? And how do you work that out?

Youve done fuck all for the movement
Your doing fuck all for the movement
And you'll most likely do fuck all for the movement

More than you.

keep working at some charity and see if that changes anything,

An individual cant change anything, it takes mass support, what you do on a personal level is never going to make all that differance. The fall of capitalism will be propagated by the actions of capitalists.

so if i were you, id leave quietly before you talk any more bollocks, aright kidda?

Or what? A petty death threat for a revolution which is not even on the horizon... you know I'm really scared, quaking.

What were you saying about talking bollocks. Ohh and thank you for justifing my post, your squealing like a stuck pig, just like I said you do.

Urban Rubble

17th August 2004, 06:55

For the last time. Stop implying that people are fucking liberals beause they don't enjoy stealing.

It's not about "the best way to defeat capitalism".

You are the one that tried to justify it by relating it to our beliefs, I.E, the overthrow of Capitalism. You are the one that brought the conversation that way.

Shoplifting can be as simple as an act of necessity.

Again, you're just contradicting yourself. You said yourself that it didn't matter if you were able bodied enough to work and support yourself or not, you said you didn't feel like you should work for a Capitalist, or the state, at all. So, you admit that it is not an act of ncessity.

Any one of your age that lives in a developed Western nation has no right to say that he shoplift's out of necessity. You know that just isn't true. You don't need 80% of the shit you take, and if you did you know damn well you could go out and get the money for it. Want to get back at "the man" ? Sell pot, at least you're providing a service.

To me, it's just undermining the exploitation I suffer at work.

Believe me, I suffer enough at work for the both of us. I don't do it because I have to or because I want to serve some fucking capitalist. I'm sure I could get by shoplifting, squatting, all that stuff, but I want to have a place to live, I want to be able to eat good meals and do things. For that you need money, and for everyone but the most clever of con men need to work for that kind of life. By the way, what do you do for a job ? Do you live at home ?

Of course, the majority of communists won't understand this, since they think jobs are awesome.

No I don't. Jobs suck. But no matter how much you want work to go away, until society invents super robots it will not. The world needs people to work to function. Think of all the things in your daily life that you enjoy, do you think they would be available if people did not want to work and create them ?

I should probably get a job, cut my hair and quit listening to that stupid terrorist music.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and stop implying that we're "unhip" or something because we feel differently than you do. I'm not telling you to cut your fucking hair, turn off your music or wash you asshole. I'm telling you everyone in society can't live the way you wish to. No matter what system we live under, it's selfish to think you can sit back and get things for free that people all over the world have to work their asses off to buy. Everyone cannot live in that way, someone has to pick up the slack.

P.S, no sense in getting angry. I still think you're a good guy and all, I just don't agree with you on this. Plus, we both know that most people who are down to steal aren't just down to steal from big stores.

I'm going to go smoke a joint and watch Beavis and Butthead reruns.

Kez

17th August 2004, 09:15

"An obstical for progression? And how do you work that out?"
-Your comments which make you a bourgeoise apologist and not a socialist revolutionary, latest example being on the question of Ireland.

"More than you."
-What exactly HAVE you done.

"An individual cant change anything, it takes mass support, what you do on a personal level is never going to make all that differance. The fall of capitalism will be propagated by the actions of capitalists."
-No shit Sherlock, but im not the one working at charities, rather ive been working in the mass organisations for the last 2 years.
-Which mass organisations have you worked for?

"Or what? A petty death threat for a revolution which is not even on the horizon... you know I'm really scared, quaking."
Wasnt supposed to be a threat you muppet, you reckon id waste my time threatening non-entities such as yourself?

"What were you saying about talking bollocks. Ohh and thank you for justifing my post, your squealing like a stuck pig, just like I said you do."
Squealing? Your stumped mate, dont say im stuck. Muppet.

Kez

17th August 2004, 09:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:10 AM
If we should always act in a way that the majority will like we will never achive a shit.

Very good, lets isolate ourselves from the masses, a very good tactic you secterian shite, maybe you should recommend it to the SWP or SP.

"It's not about "the best way to defeat capitalism". It doesn't have to be about defeating capitalism. Shoplifting can be as simple as an act of necessity. If you wanna argue that it is a form of tactical protest, then do it. To me, it's just undermining the exploitation I suffer at work."

-oooh, boohoo, middleclass punk GR is tired from working. Quit your whining. I work 10 hours a day and you dont see me being a filthy thief. More importantly, what about those who work 15 hours in horrid conditions in the 3rd world, yet they dont see any reason in stealing, because when you steal, your directly taking out of the mouths of others.
As CC showed, when you steal from a store, they take it out of teh workers wages, it really shows your lack of understanding of capitalism, when you think the bosses will suffer when business is damaged, rather than forcing the workers to take the brunt of the damage.

your thieving off the working class, well done, ****.

You can shove your liberal bohemian comments about you not caring about anything or anyone and your exploitation. bollocks, grow up you tit.

Reuben

17th August 2004, 09:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:35 AM
Behave like a capitalist? Eh?

The capitalists is not the enemy, btw, capitalism is.
And really, we do not behave like a capitalist.

Communism is the negation of the proletarians, and in extension the negation of capital, the bourgeoisie and the class society as a whole. But the first thing we have to abolish is the proletarians. We need to cease being labour, and become a class. In the process of ceasing being labour we might have to find other ways to provide ourselfs with the stuff we need. Theft might aid really, before we can establish our class dicatorship.
I suggest you actually read some marx, the negation of the proletariat is not the first task , in in the first stage of socialism the role of the proletariat is said to be universalised rather than abolished before movement to a classless society. And how do you reconcile your notion that the first task is the negation of the proletariat is the first task with the fact Marxists believe in the ictatoship of the proletariat as the structure which follows a revolution.

The capitalists is not the enemy, btw, capitalism is.

Comrade central to Marxism is the idea of materialism. He never suggested tht capitalism should be understood or opposed as some kind of abstract system. Within every system - slavery, feudalism, capitalism etc- there is a class with an interest in maintaining the existing social oder and a class whpo ave an interest in social progress. Under capitalism the bourgoiesie are that class with an interest in inhibiting social progress and consequently a calass are in fact our enemies. The notion thatwe oppose capitalism but we do not oppose that class that have an interest in and are responsible for its maintainence is ridiculous.

I suggest you get a basic grasp of marxism before lecturing me on it...

will respond to gr later

DaCuBaN

17th August 2004, 11:34

What, so I should give a fuck about Marks and Spencer when I steal orange juice from them??

You mentioned you worked in a supermarket (is it this one? for the sake of argument I'll assume so - it's not of much relevance) - Given that when companies identify that stock is going missing they start to tighten up security both for the customer and the employee - whilst you may not mind being patted down before you leave work every night, do all your fellow workers think alike?

So why defend [capitalism]? Why further its advance by playing your part in the money chain??

Oh for crying out loud, man! Noone here defends capitalism: We're saying your 'efforts' here are counter-productive - they hurt the workers more than 'the man'. He'll just increase security, lower wages or increase staff turnover to try and weed out the thieves. If severe enough, the business will close it's doors on that particular venue and put scores if not hundreds of people out of work.

You're going to struggle to steal food for the poor when they do that.

Who mentioned Coke and CDs?? Why are you second guessing what I lift??

I wasn't second guessing your choice of product to nick, I was merely throwing in examples. What you steal really is of no relevance, it's still theft and by my book would have you strung up by the ears.

Not on the first offense of course, but if you didn't learn...

since when should every action be committed to "revolution"?

Do you bother reading any threads in theory? I don't advocate revolt nor reform - I'm merely anti-capital. However...

Hey, guess what fella, neither you nor I will live to see any sort of "emancipation" in this country on a large scale. That said, a good way to emancipate the few who recognise the faults within capitalism is to aid them in finding their own ways to escape its clutches. Such as shoplifting. Booyah. Of course, if the entire world was to shoplift, money would be rendered irrelevant, but that's kinda unlikely.

Political alignment means nothing to me: I still would not take from another to satisfy my own greed however. Are you seriously trying to tell us that you steal like some kind of pseudo robin hood?

As far as money being irrelevant, all that is necessary there is to persuade people that money is irrelevant. Running around stealing from shops makes you look like a tit - and frankly, who listens to a tit?

However, if you think you are "making a difference" by financially supporting capitalism then you are more deluded than I

I'm not a consumerist: in fact the only consumer goods I buy are smoking equipment and computer components - both of which I do in bulk in a form of syndicate. Otherwise I fuel my vehicle to get me to work, I eat, work and sleep.

It's a simple life...

I bet you chuckled at your own intelligence at being able to come up with that excellent piece of semantics

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, Sir Robin.

Why must you bludgeon any meaning out of my words?

I'm not - I'm simply giving you my interpretation of them.

It was put to me that in any society one would have to work for food. I was retorting with examples where that is not the case.

Just as my stating 'There is no such thing as a free lunch' was pointing out the flaw in such an argument: Whether you opt for a simple hunter-gatherer lifestyle, a syndicalist unionesque lifestyle or simply wish to retain one of the price-systems doesn't change the fact that work is a necessity - whether you are employed as in the current system is of no relevance to that. Your response was to essentially accuse me of being pro-capitalist.

A Marxist talking about property?? Oh sweet Jesus...

JE NE SUIS PAS UNE MARXISTE!

The world does not belong to anyone. It belongs to everyone. It is an injustice for someone to lay claim to a raw material, a theory, a book, a piece of food. Therefore, it is not an injustice for someone to take what they need.

So in a gift economy it's still ok just to take without asking? That's the fundamental here. It certainly isn't compatible with the LTV, if that's your thing...

I will not be dictated by abstractions. More importantly, I refuse to [be] told to "like or lump" capitalism by a fucking communist (assuming that you are).

Communish ;)

There you go saying that stealing is bringing down the system again - I say it is not. Even if we run with the idea that it is, I am still appalled by it: Your actions have consequences on others who are in the same or more likely worse position as/than yourself.

Whilst you may justify that as 'collatoral damage', I refuse to.

Come the "revolution", are you gonna sit back and let those who have profited from capitalism keep their flashy cars and mansions?? Fuck no, you'll take that shit back!!

So after the revolution it's going to be yours?

Depriving another of what?? Profit??

Depriving another of their livelihood - their means to exist for your own benefit. Quit acting like your fucking robin hood!

at what point does "personal benefit" meet "personal need"?

That's practically worthy of a thread in it's own right :lol:
My personal call on this is quite simple: Need is the means to survive.

This thread is somewhat terrifying

Enlightening I'd say :rolleyes:

Invader Zim

17th August 2004, 18:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 10:15 AM
"An obstical for progression? And how do you work that out?"
-Your comments which make you a bourgeoise apologist and not a socialist revolutionary, latest example being on the question of Ireland.

"More than you."
-What exactly HAVE you done.

"An individual cant change anything, it takes mass support, what you do on a personal level is never going to make all that differance. The fall of capitalism will be propagated by the actions of capitalists."
-No shit Sherlock, but im not the one working at charities, rather ive been working in the mass organisations for the last 2 years.
-Which mass organisations have you worked for?

"Or what? A petty death threat for a revolution which is not even on the horizon... you know I'm really scared, quaking."
Wasnt supposed to be a threat you muppet, you reckon id waste my time threatening non-entities such as yourself?

"What were you saying about talking bollocks. Ohh and thank you for justifing my post, your squealing like a stuck pig, just like I said you do."
Squealing? Your stumped mate, dont say im stuck. Muppet.
latest example being on the question of Ireland.

Yes, stating that I wish the end of artifical boundries which limit the working class, very reactionary.

Tell me, did you even bother to read what I posted in that thread?

What exactly HAVE you done.

How about 9 hours a day, protecting a relic of the defeat of Nazism, hows that? Supported leftist parties donated what little I earn to Respect? Etc.

but im not the one working at charities

And what's that supposed to mean, are you suggesting that actually putting hard labour (something I doubt you have ever experianced) into an organisation which needs support is as fruitless as messing around at meaningless rallies, waiting for the capitalists to make a mistake? Yeahh I see your logic. :rolleyes:

ive been working in the mass organisations for the last 2 years.

What the trade unions and Labour? Real smooth mate, capitalists and fakes, your really helping the situation, pat your self on the back.

-Which mass organisations have you worked for?

And be like you? A slave to corporate whores?

Wasnt supposed to be a threat you muppet,

Really, I could have sworn that you were trying to say that come revolution, I would be like the Tsar's wife, a target of the mob. Look at this one of us is going senile, and it sure ain't me.

Now, if you've quite finished, I would like to talk to someone with a little sense.

commiecrusader

17th August 2004, 19:14

whatever your position on the left, surely at the end of the day some of your fundamental ideas are equality and fairness. whether it be primitivism (where what you get relates exactly to how hard you forage) or communist (where you get what you need). and the bottom line is shoplifting, and thieving of any kind, does not achieve this. it deprives people who have worked their asses of to get through, and worsens the situation for working classes everywhere. if everyone shoplifted, where would production come from? the producers would keep what they produced, and then youd feel the fucking need to steal.

also, shoplifting doesnt undermine the exploitation you feel at work. it will make the situation worse for you and your fellow workers if you do it from your workplace, or worse for those at others if you steal from another shop. but then again that shouldnt bother someone blinded by selfishness as to the reasons not to shoplift.

all societies have morals, and to take something for nothing would be seen as unacceptable in all cultures save for a mountain tribe in tibet that i cant think of the name of who steal things from their dying parents. however that is because resources are so scarce they have to. anyone in a western/developed country doesn't need to, since you could make enough money busking, if you could be bothered, to see you through.

stealing is the embodiment of capitalism at its most extreme. the bourgeoisie steal from the mouths of the workers, and so do shoplifters.

Djehuti

17th August 2004, 22:43

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 09:30 AM
I suggest you actually read some marx, the negation of the proletariat is not the first task , in in the first stage of socialism the role of the proletariat is said to be universalised rather than abolished before movement to a classless society. And how do you reconcile your notion that the first task is the negation of the proletariat is the first task with the fact Marxists believe in the ictatoship of the proletariat as the structure which follows a revolution.

The capitalists is not the enemy, btw, capitalism is.

Comrade central to Marxism is the idea of materialism. He never suggested tht capitalism should be understood or opposed as some kind of abstract system. Within every system - slavery, feudalism, capitalism etc- there is a class with an interest in maintaining the existing social oder and a class whpo ave an interest in social progress. Under capitalism the bourgoiesie are that class with an interest in inhibiting social progress and consequently a calass are in fact our enemies. The notion thatwe oppose capitalism but we do not oppose that class that have an interest in and are responsible for its maintainence is ridiculous.

I suggest you get a basic grasp of marxism before lecturing me on it...

will respond to gr later
"I suggest you actually read some marx, the negation of the proletariat is not the first task , in in the first stage of socialism the role of the proletariat is said to be universalised rather than abolished before movement to a classless society"

Marx never talket about "socialism", it was first Lenin who talket about a "socialist fase" that comes before communism.

"And how do you reconcile your notion that the first task is the negation of the proletariat is the first task with the fact Marxists believe in the ictatoship of the proletariat as the structure which follows a revolution".

The dictatorship of the proletariat is NOT a structure that FOLLOWS the revolution,
The DotP is the proletariat organized as ruling class, their state, the organized defence of the revolution, and it ends with the revolution, not after. Revolution is a long process, not a simple takeover of the state. The proletarians organized as a class means that the proletariat, instead of struggling sectionally against the economically privileged class, has attained a sufficient strength and organization to employ general means of coercion in this struggle. It can however only use such economic means as abolish its own character as salariat, hence as class. With its complete victory its own rule thus also ends, as its class character has disappeared.

"Comrade central to Marxism is the idea of materialism. He never suggested tht capitalism should be understood or opposed as some kind of abstract system. Within every system - slavery, feudalism, capitalism etc- there is a class with an interest in maintaining the existing social oder and a class whpo ave an interest in social progress. Under capitalism the bourgoiesie are that class with an interest in inhibiting social progress and consequently a calass are in fact our enemies. The notion thatwe oppose capitalism but we do not oppose that class that have an interest in and are responsible for its maintainence is ridiculous."

I agree with you, but not totaly. The bourgeoisie is not free in the capitalist society, they to is dominated by the laws of capitalism, the law of value, etc.
In the classtruggle, it usually begins with a hate towards the bourgeoisie, but as the struggle continues and developes the proletarians to the same. And their struggle begins to focus more on the capitalist society then individuals defending it.
The conflict in capitalism is about much more essential things than the difference between those who possess the means of production and those who are dispossessed from them, or between the rich and the poor.

Dont understand me wrong, there are of course real conflicts and differences between those who own and those who don’t and between rich and poor. And when the proletariat wages its struggle against capital, both hidden and open, they will necessarily have to clash with the functionaries of capital. But it is not the capitalists that control capital; it is capital that controls the capitalists. It is not only the proletarians that are interchangeable but also the functionaries of capital. In capitalism humans are not worth anything as humans. The only thing that is important for capital is the role that they fulfil in the society, a role, which another one can take over if a person doesn’t fulfil it. The class struggle is not a »robin hood» project and the proletariat is not only the poor. To say that the conflict is between the rich and the poor hides the real contradiction namely that between communism and capital. And it also gives people a false solution as to how capitalism can be destroyed: namely, that we just have to have to finish off the rich. This is a formulation that stands reality on its head; it is not the rich who create capitalism. It is capitalism that creates wealth and therefore also poverty. We will be rid of this difference if we get rid of capitalism.

If it is not the rich who are in control, then who is it? It is the »law of value» that governs capitalism and forces everyone rich as well as poor, to hunt for more and more money. This »law» cannot be tamed, all the attempts at doing so have either failed or been crushed. Value must be destroyed if everyone is not to dance to its tune.

Saint-Just

17th August 2004, 23:47

The dictatorship of the proletariat is NOT a structure that FOLLOWS the revolution,
The DotP is the proletariat organized as ruling class, their state, the organized defence of the revolution, and it ends with the revolution, not after. Revolution is a long process, not a simple takeover of the state.

The revolution is instance at which the bourgeoisie is overthrown. As the proletariat becomes the new ruling class, the state; the bourgeoisie is, of course, overthrown. As Marx wrote, revolution occurs at the beginning of the first phase of communism and at the beginning of the second phase of communism.

Individual

18th August 2004, 04:52

Now I really want a cd.
Now I really want that craving for chocolate.
Now I really want those smokes.
Now I really want that effect.
Now I really want a new book to read.
Now I really want a new pair of jeans.
Now I really want good tooth paste to brush with.
Now I really want groceries in my fridge.
Now I really want that place to live.
Now I really want to pay my bills.
Now I really want a bed that I fit in.
Now I really want that television to watch.
Now I really want the gas for my truck.
Now I really want to afford an engagement ring.

Now I really want my job.

apathy maybe

18th August 2004, 05:02

1) Theft does not hurt the worker in the case of shoplifting (unless the store implements a pat down as the workers leave).
2) Theft does not hurt the store; they already factor in an amount of theft into their prices. If it didn't happen, the store would just get more money.
3) Being for or against theft in our current society does not really change your political leaning. You can be a communist and still oppose theft, but equally you can support it.
4) If you or your family were starving, would you not steal?

Note: in the above theft is meant as theft from a large corporation. Not from either a small business or an individual (which I think come under a different kind of theft).

And all your posts count for nothing if no one reads them, look at this thread
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?s...=25224&hl=theft (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25224&hl=theft)

Kez

18th August 2004, 11:28

go for it, the more loony lefts are arrested for theft the less time they got to interupt any real revolutionary movements.

go for it.

Guerrilla22

19th August 2004, 07:48

I agree with Guerrilla Radio that stealing for necessity is okay, but I'd hardly call soda, candy and CDS a necessity. I'm not going to tell any of you to wash your assholes either.

edit: Although its a polite thing to do if you want anything sexually done to your asshole.

DarkAngel

20th August 2004, 03:28

Eww get your fucking ass up and get a job. If everybody got lazy n stole instead of working for there share, what do you think would happen?

Yes I agree that in certain casses its ok to steal. But not if your starving, I mean why are you starving in the first place, unless your illegal and can't get a job, or you or somebody in your family who makes the money is ill then fine, but other then that stealing is WRONG.

Djehuti

20th August 2004, 19:25

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 03:28 AM
Eww get your fucking ass up and get a job. If everybody got lazy n stole instead of working for there share, what do you think would happen?

Communism?

commiecrusader

20th August 2004, 20:03

what the fuck are you talking about? communism isnt about not working. and stealing is the embodiment of capitalism at its most extreme. use your brain.

Edelweiss

20th August 2004, 20:48

Some comments of some in this thread are making me sick, esepcially those of AQ and Kez. What a pseudo-communist bullshit, in the end it's just a deeply bourgeois moral. It just ridiculous how some you are celebreating their wage slave live! Questioning capitalism means questioning wage labour, it's just sickening how proud you seem to be exploited "10 hours a day". Kez, maybe you should get hired by Wal-Mart for their next anti-shoplifting campaign, instead of working 10 hours a day, you are very convincing to claim shoplifting is against working class interests. ;)
I see NOTHING wrong with shoplifting at all. Steal back what they have stolen from you!

Individual

20th August 2004, 20:59

Yes.. How deeply wrong I must be Malte. Stealing very much represents an anti-capitalist agenda.

Everything for me, I want everything for me! Fuck you workers, I want your shit for free! Whatever I can get for free, I want it! It's mine, it's mine!

Very, very anti-capitalist if you ask me.

When back in reality, where I realize that stealing a pair of jeans is not worth the risk of sitting my ass in jail; or landing an even heftier fine, I'll choose the old fashion idea of working.

It may be tough, but hell, it beats a concrete bed.

If you think working hard labour for 10 hours a day is going to change under Marxism, then I'm not sure what you are thinking. There will always be things I want that I cannot have, but I'm not going to steal from someone else to get them.

What would you call a thief under capitalism? A Marxist?

What would you call a thief under Marxism? A selfish bastard.

Where is the difference?

I want a golden goose egg! Daddy, I want it, and I want it now!

Edelweiss

20th August 2004, 21:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 10:59 PM
Yes.. How deeply wrong I must be Malte. Stealing very much represents an anti-capitalist agenda.

Everything for me, I want everything for me! Fuck you workers, I want your shit for free! Whatever I can get for free, I want it! It's mine, it's mine!

Very, very anti-capitalist if you ask me.

When back in reality, where I realize that stealing a pair of jeans is not worth the risk of sitting my ass in jail; or landing an even heftier fine, I'll choose the old fashion idea of working.

It may be tough, but hell, it beats a concrete bed.

If you think working hard labour for 10 hours a day is going to change under Marxism, then I'm not sure what you are thinking. There will always be things I want that I cannot have, but I'm not going to steal from someone else to get them.

What would you call a thief under capitalism? A Marxist?

What would you call a thief under Marxism? A selfish bastard.

Where is the difference?

I want a golden goose egg! Daddy, I want it, and I want it now!
Like I already said, deeply bourgeious moral...
In case you haven't noticed, we are living in a capitatalist soeciety, and not in a communist one. Only because we shouddn't steal in a communist society, it doesn't mean we shoudln't steal in a capitalist society to take back the part the capitalists have used froum our labour for their very own profits. It is indeed anti-capitalist, it is subversive to capitalism, and so totally legitimate.
BTW: Yes, I do think that in a fully communist society NOBODY is forced to work 10 hours a day.
And it's of course not "Fuck you workers, I want your shit for free!", it's everything for everyone for free what I'm and any other communist is advocating.

commiecrusader

20th August 2004, 21:39

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:29 PM
Like I already said, deeply bourgeious moral...
In case you haven't noticed, we are living in a capitatalist soeciety, and not in a communist one. Only because we shouddn't steal in a communist society, it doesn't mean we shoudln't steal in a capitalist society to take back the part the capitalists have used froum our labour for their very own profits. It is indeed anti-capitalist, it is subversive to capitalism, and so totally legitimate.
BTW: Yes, I do think that in a fully communist society NOBODY is forced to work 10 hours a day.
And it's of course not "Fuck you workers, I want your shit for free!", it's everything for everyone for free what I'm and any other communist is advocating.
where to start. oh yes.

In case you haven't noticed, we are living in a capitatalist soeciety, and not in a communist one. Only because we shouddn't steal in a communist society, it doesn't mean we shoudln't steal in a capitalist society to take back the part the capitalists have used froum our labour for their very own profits.
so just because you live in a capitalist society you should act like a capitalist? thank god you didnt live in nazi germany or you'd be killing jews (no offence intended to anyone on here). shouldn't you live by your morals? or do you not consider stealing to be wrong in a communist society either? also i very much doubt the things you are 'stealing back' are from 'your labour'. you are taking something that another person has worked to produce, and they get nothing in return. it is the ultimate example of capitalism. at least in sweatshops the workers get something. you would rather give them nothing.

Kez

20th August 2004, 21:43

so when i as a worker get my pay deducted coz some **** stole something from the store thats ok? coz the thief is taking back part of his value he lost through exploitation? you genius

put worker against worker...well done Malte.

so the solution against capitalism is to steal, like a fucking theif.

hey, dont work in your union, dont work in your workers party, go out and rob. This is the single most stupid thing ive heard from you Malte. You idiot.

As a communist, workers will in time look to you for their political solutions, your setting an arseholes example by stealing.

Were pissed off by capitalism, try working to get rid of it, instead of stealing and robbing off another worker.

You think the bosses will allow their profits to be dented? fuck no, theyre gonna screw the workers more, and you think thats good.

Workers of the world steal, we have to forget about the political solutions, and steal back from capitalists! yeah, down with ca-ca-capitalism...

The Feral Underclass

20th August 2004, 22:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 11:39 PM
you live by your morals?
What are morals?

or do you not consider stealing to be wrong in a communist society either?

Stealing generally comes from a need? Why would anyone need to steal in a communist society.

also i very much doubt the things you are 'stealing back' are from 'your labour'. you are taking something that another person has worked to produce, and they get nothing in return

They get nothing in return anyway. There are many people who live on the streets and neither have the will power, hope or confidence to do anything about it. They spend their days on the streets, pretty much starving. In many shops after a day of selling food, what they have left is thrown away. Sometimes you will see a homeless person begging for food outside of a shop that is full of food. Why should this person abide by some law, moral or otherwise, if it means he will starve?

Edelweiss

20th August 2004, 22:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 11:43 PM
so when i as a worker get my pay deducted coz some **** stole something from the store thats ok? coz the thief is taking back part of his value he lost through exploitation? you genius

put worker against worker...well done Malte.

so the solution against capitalism is to steal, like a fucking theif.

hey, dont work in your union, dont work in your workers party, go out and rob. This is the single most stupid thing ive heard from you Malte. You idiot.

As a communist, workers will in time look to you for their political solutions, your setting an arseholes example by stealing.

Were pissed off by capitalism, try working to get rid of it, instead of stealing and robbing off another worker.

You think the bosses will allow their profits to be dented? fuck no, theyre gonna screw the workers more, and you think thats good.

Workers of the world steal, we have to forget about the political solutions, and steal back from capitalists! yeah, down with ca-ca-capitalism...
Kez, I would be grateful if you could make a single post without insults...

First, I really don't think that stealing from the big enterprises is the ultimative solution to get rid of capitalism, but i did never claim that anyway. But still your argumentation is very weak and just wrong. Yea, let's do everything to satisfy the bossess, they could might get angry and exploit us even more. Let's stop fighting for workers rights, the boss might get angry and reduce our loans. Let's stop all social welfare, our boss could have the idea to go to a 3rd word country, social welfare is robbing off the workers!
Also Kez, it would be nice if you would be able to keep apart wage labour and political work, the fact that you are mixing both in your stupid argument shows that you, despite all you arrogant smartassness here, have never gone beyond a rather simple-minded understanding of capitalism and communism.

Kez

20th August 2004, 23:21

what you talkin bout foo'

ive unionised my small workplace, and always agitated, not exactly a bosses lapdog.

Hitman47

21st August 2004, 04:21

lol

I remember when we needed a little metal thing to pump up my bicycle wheel i had. And my cousin went up to a package of those things, opened it up took one and pretended to be pumping a bicycle wheel over at K-Mart. Then he slipped one in his mouth and he put the package back.

It was so funny! :D

Then one time we went to this flea market and we snapped a soccer ball. We told the asian lady how much it costs, but she didn't answer. She ignored us pretty much, so we just took off :D

DarkAngel

21st August 2004, 04:49

Shit if thats what you call communism, sitting on your ass while everythings handed to you.. i feel bad for you.

Raisa

21st August 2004, 06:32

What if you work for a place that you cant afford the merchandise from, and you decide to take something?

Fidelbrand

21st August 2004, 07:05

!Petrified!

Now we are claiming that stealing is right because the cappies and exploiters are wrong. Just for the sole reason because it is subversive to capitalism.
How about we kill someone if he is a murderer? "Hey, retribution! Justice! an eye for an eye! " .... way to go , leftists! (We won't go anywhere!)

How do we persuade the lay public with this kind of mentality and conduct?

sigh...........~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fidelbrand

21st August 2004, 08:54

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:56 AM
if we all stopped working, countries would fall and the world would turn into an anarcists paradise
Stupid lazy N.F.C. dirting the name of anarchism.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 11:54

anarchist tension:

What are morals?
you cannot be serious. morals are values you hold close to your heart. most people would feel that stealing is wrong except for in extreme circumstances. also most people would think it is morally wrong to kill someone for example. wheres your brain?

Stealing generally comes from a need? Why would anyone need to steal in a communist society.
maybe, but no-one on here is going to need to steal or you wouldnt own a fucking computer. obviously if the situation is that desperate e.g. starvation then i can see why someone might need to steal food but other than that there is no real excuse to steal.

There are many people who live on the streets and neither have the will power, hope or confidence to do anything about it. They spend their days on the streets, pretty much starving.
thanks for agreeing with my point. these people are not stealing back things that they have worked to produce. also it could be said these people are lazy since what is to stop them getting a busking licence and doing something to earn some money?

Sometimes you will see a homeless person begging for food outside of a shop that is full of food. Why should this person abide by some law, moral or otherwise, if it means he will starve?
okay, i concede that in some situations theft may be necessary, but i reiterrate(spelling?) that no-one on here needs to.

Darkangel:

Shit if thats what you call communism, sitting on your ass while everythings handed to you.. i feel bad for you.
well said.

Raisa:

What if you work for a place that you cant afford the merchandise from, and you decide to take something?
to a certain extent you just have to say, tough shit. in a capitalist society, there will always be things the workers can't afford. thats part of the point of exploitation. but stealing just displays immature jealousy, and damages fellow workers. the best thing to do is to try and change the system, then everyone will get what they need.

Fidelbrand:

Now we are claiming that stealing is right because the cappies and exploiters are wrong. Just for the sole reason because it is subversive to capitalism.
How about we kill someone if he is a murderer? "Hey, retribution! Justice! an eye for an eye! " .... way to go , leftists! (We won't go anywhere!)

How do we persuade the lay public with this kind of mentality and conduct?
well said

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 12:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 01:54 PM
you cannot be serious. morals are values you hold close to your heart. most people would feel that stealing is wrong except for in extreme circumstances. also most people would think it is morally wrong to kill someone for example. wheres your brain?
Deadly serious. What are morals? where do they come from? and why should anyone abide by them?

You may choose to hold some "moral" about not stealing but why should that equate to anyone else? You are you, you have chosen to believe these things, not me.

Morals are an illusion, they aren't real, except in your mind. Or as you say, your heart. I would say being immoral was equally as valid as being moral. What ever that means?

also most people would think it is morally wrong to kill someone for example. wheres your brain?

Most people would think that but when put in a situation when they needed to kill all these ideas of "morals" would evaperate into the void they came from and they wouldn't think twice about it. You and me included.

maybe, but no-one on here is going to need to steal or you wouldnt own a fucking computer.

Don't assume to know anything about anyone. How do you know I didnt steal this computer?

obviously if the situation is that desperate e.g. starvation then i can see why someone might need to steal food but other than that there is no real excuse to steal.

Why isn't there an excuse? What if I just want to steal something?

also it could be said these people are lazy since what is to stop them getting a busking licence and doing something to earn some money?

Ah ha! The true colors come out. You sound like some Tory politician. These are the kind of arch-conservative bullshit opinions that confuse and distort the communist movement. You have completely lost perspective on society, or most probably you never had any perspective.

You claim that homeless people are just to lazy to pick themselves up and get on with what?..Being a wage slave? The majority of homeless people are on the streets because of problems they faced at home and/or dependency on drugs or alcohol. Many homeless people, if not all of them, lack confidence, proper knowledge or the hope in anything other than what they have.

But of course they choose a life of squating in piss stained doorways with some measly blanket to keep warm other than get a "real" job, simply because they can't be arsed to do anything about it.

You claim to be a communist? What kind of communist? What kind of societal perspective do you have? You honestly believe that these family breakdowns, drug and alcohol dependency, lack of confidence, hoplessness continues because of lazyness? Where's your brain?

okay, i concede that in some situations theft may be necessary, but i reiterrate(spelling?) that no-one on here needs to.

Not only necessary but acceptable!

And please don't assume to know anything about anyone on here, especially when your post count is only 25.

cubist

21st August 2004, 12:40

AQ,

that is terribly conservative of you,

before i start i think the only stealing that is acceptable is in times of need, starvation for example, blatant shoplifting is not condoned by me, i wouldn't do it but i don't need to

When back in reality, where I realize that stealing a pair of jeans is not worth the risk of sitting my ass in jail; or landing an even heftier fine, I'll choose the old fashion idea of working.

It may be tough, but hell, it beats a concrete bed. indeed you would, but what if your a single mu allready working a 70 hour week and you still only just afford rent let alone feeding your child is it ok then oh moral highness?

If you think working hard labour for 10 hours a day is going to change under Marxism, then I'm not sure what you are thinking. There will always be things I want that I cannot have, but I'm not going to steal from someone else to get them. no one has said that just because in times of need people believe its ok to steal doesn't mean they think communism is about socialising and relaxing on sun beds, thats the bourgeoise they sit around while we work our asses off

What would you call a thief under capitalism? A Marxist? no a marxist would be a marxist a thief would be a selfish bastard unless, society has made it so his fundamental rights to live are not there and he steals to live, unless people dying of starvation in a western country is ok with you AQ? or do you only sympathise with the 3rd world in your deeply confused bourgoisie eyes

What would you call a thief under Marxism? A selfish bastard. indeed, someone who needs to steal when it is not a basic right is placing material items to highly, and holding a class system in his/hers mind even when it doesn't exist, now you will more than likely find that where no power is found in riches stealing is not going to be very high,

Where is the difference?

the difference is that out of the two systems marxist and cappie, the thief in the cappie land has more chance of being justified becuase the primitive needs for life are not provided for free, in marxism that will all be free for all comrades, and in the system where such equality is premoted stealing is a far greater crime as you are stealing from everyone. not too mention the classless system where material possesion wqon't be placed at the forefront of the workers minds

Saint-Just

21st August 2004, 13:04

What are morals? where do they come from? and why should anyone abide by them?

You may choose to hold some "moral" about not stealing but why should that equate to anyone else? You are you, you have chosen to believe these things, not me.

Morals are an illusion, they aren't real, except in your mind. Or as you say, your heart. I would say being immoral was equally as valid as being moral. What ever that means? ~The Anarchist Tension

People have to concur as to what is right and wrong, otherwise, people will do whatever they will towards each other. Certain acts can encroach upon the morality and/or freedom of another person. Thus, when all people have differing views on morality conflicts occur where the act(s) of one individual begin to impinge upon the freedom of another individual. So, morality must exist and be held in common so that all individuals can have their freedom guaranteed.

Secondly, using science we can determine what is right and wrong.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 13:06

Anarchist Tension:

Most people would think that but when put in a situation when they needed to kill all these ideas of "morals" would evaperate into the void they came from and they wouldn't think twice about it. You and me included.
yes, which is why i said there is going to be exceptions about when stealing is acceptable such as when someone is facing death by starvation. also clearly there is exceptions to murder such as in self defence or serving in the army (although it is debatable as to how just some of these killings are)

Don't assume to know anything about anyone. How do you know I didnt steal this computer?
okay so maybe i am assuming quite a lot and it is possible that you did steal that computer but i doubt it. also it would be hard to shoplift a computer which is what this thread is about.

Why isn't there an excuse? What if I just want to steal something?
because unless you're stealing out of necessity then it essentially boils down to greed or selfishness. arent these words that perfectly encapsulate capitalism?

Ah ha! The true colors come out. You sound like some Tory politician. These are the kind of arch-conservative bullshit opinions that confuse and distort the communist movement. You have completely lost perspective on society, or most probably you never had any perspective.
i never said i thought that, but i can in some ways see why some might. of course people dont choose to live on the streets, or be addicted to drink/drugs or whatever. but in the capitalist system, things arent really going to change unless they do work. if they are incapable of working then they should be subsidised although this isnt the case now. so in that situation they face starvation. didnt i say that shoplifting out of necessity was alright? must just be my imagination i guess. funny that.

Not only necessary but acceptable!
yes i agree with you on this. if the shoplifting or stealing is absolutely necessary then it is acceptable.

And please don't assume to know anything about anyone on here, especially when your post count is only 25.
now whose true colours come out? just because im new you think you can treat me like an idiot? you think my views are less valid just because i havent posted as much as you? what the fuck? i couldnt give a fuck if you've posted 3758 times or once i would still treat your views exactly the same. so dont fucking patronise someone you prick. you're as bad as my supervisor at work. yes some bourgeois fucker that thinks they are better than their employee just because they live in a big fucking house and he doesnt. to you posts must be like money: dont have many? well then you dont count. well done.

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 13:19

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 03:06 PM
because unless you're stealing out of necessity then it essentially boils down to greed or selfishness.
Why?

but in the capitalist system, things arent really going to change unless they do work.

So your solution to peoples problems is to get a job?

didnt i say that shoplifting out of necessity was alright?

What about your morals?

now whose true colours come out? just because im new you think you can treat me like an idiot? you think my views are less valid just because i havent posted as much as you? what the fuck? i couldnt give a fuck if you've posted 3758 times or once i would still treat your views exactly the same. so dont fucking patronise someone you prick. you're as bad as my supervisor at work. yes some bourgeois fucker that thinks they are better than their employee just because they live in a big fucking house and he doesnt. to you posts must be like money: dont have many? well then you dont count. well done.

:rolleyes:

The point I was making sparky was that you seem to be talking about people as if you know them. Do you? Your opinions are as valid as the next persons, that wasn't what I was talking about. When you get to know people a little better, you will be able to pass judgement on their behaviour. Wouldn't you say that was a fair comment to make?

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 13:26

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 21 2004, 03:04 PM
People have to concur as to what is right and wrong, otherwise, people will do whatever they will towards each other.
That's not what i'm disputing. Of course there can and to some extent should be a collectivly agreed idea of respect, but commiecrusader seems to think as if this morality he speaks of is how everyone should live, as if it were commanded by some higher thing.

My point is that morals do not exist the way he is argueing. They are not a definite thing, they are not a "material reality", they are an invention of the mind.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 13:39

Anarchist Tension:

Why?
what motives would you say were behind you wanting to steal something just because you wanted to steal then? i dont want to eat a sandwich just because i want to eat a sandwich. i want to eat a sandwich because i am hungry.

So your solution to peoples problems is to get a job?
okay i didnt really phrase that very well did i lol. what i mean is that in a capitalist system, if someone wants to improve their quality of life, work is the only way to do it at the moment practically, since there isnt much likelihood of everywhere turning communist just at the moment though we can but hope it will soon :D

What about your morals?
morals can be flexible things. arent a lot of laws based on morals? and dont laws have defences available to them. to me, my morals are a guide to how i should live my life, for example i very rarely actually hit anyone. i think it is morally wrong. but if i had too to protect myself or someone or something i cared about, i would. now not everyone has to agree with this, but this is how i feel, and i think most people would have some sort of moral framework they live their lives by, even if they differ slightly. (or am i assuming too much lol joke :) )

The point I was making sparky was that you seem to be talking about people as if you know them. Do you? Your opinions are as valid as the next persons, that wasn't what I was talking about. When you get to know people a little better, you will be able to pass judgement on their behaviour. Wouldn't you say that was a fair comment to make?
possibly yes except that i dont feel as if that is how i am talking. i do make assumptions yes but i dont think they are that far-fetched, i dont for example assume everyone here has a third nipple. or do i? lol. to a certain extent it is very difficult to debate without making any assumptions at all. maybe its a skill i will learn, but at the moment, this is how i debate and sorry if you dont like it.

also. out of interest, what does the :rolleyes: rolleyes smiley mean? and yes i suppose this is an example of my newness to the forum but it isnt exactly the end of the world that i dont know this is it?

My point is that morals do not exist the way he is argueing. They are not a definite thing, they are not a "material reality", they are an invention of the mind.
this doesnt really help any argument you are trying to make. just because something isnt material reality doesnt make it invalid or mean you should ignore it. is communism/anarchism/whatever politics you believe not an idea? whilst parties and organisations may represent this idea, the idea is still just that, an idea. yet you and i clearly follow these ideas despite their immaterial nature, despite the fact they are inventions of the mind.

Misodoctakleidist

21st August 2004, 13:43

I don't see what all the argument is about, stealing is no way to fight capitalism but it certainly isn't wrong.

Fidelbrand

21st August 2004, 14:01

Who moved the thread?
How about move this thread to O.I. ? and let the reactionaires laugh at us?

Invader Zim

21st August 2004, 14:02

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 20 2004, 11:01 PM
Stealing generally comes from a need? Why would anyone need to steal in a communist society.

Bollocks most people who steal dont steal because of need, unless you count feeding a drug addiction a need.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 14:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:02 PM
Bollocks most people who steal dont steal because of need, unless you count feeding a drug addiction a need.
well to the drug addicted person that is a need. but yeah i support what you say too.stealing should come from a desperate need where there is no alternative but usually doesnt.

Misodoctakleidist

21st August 2004, 14:11

To consider shoplifting wrong, you'd have to believe that the shop has legitimate property rights over the thing you're are stealing. Of course this line of thinking would lead you to conclude that the exploitation of workers in it's creation was perfectly fine.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 14:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:11 PM
To consider shoplifting wrong, you'd have to believe that the shop has legitimate property rights over the thing you're are stealing. Of course this line of thinking would lead you to conclude that the exploitation of workers in it's creation was perfectly fine.
no. to consider shoplifting wrong, i believe the person/people that created the property have a right to receive some reward for their efforts. shoplifting deprives them of this chance. of course the exploitation isnt fine. this also deprives workers of their full rewards, hence i am against exploitation as well as shoplifting

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 14:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 03:39 PM
what motives would you say were behind you wanting to steal something just because you wanted to steal then?
I don't want to steal anything. Maybe people steal things because they don't have the money to buy them. Some people might be forced by the social conditioning having possessions creates to steal something in order to look ok. A teenager might steal a pair of trainers to look cool in front of their peers.

i dont want to eat a sandwich just because i want to eat a sandwich.

Luckily for you you can control your eating. I often eat sandwich's because I want to.

if someone wants to improve their quality of life, work is the only way to do it at the moment practically,

True, and there is no problem with that, but for those people who do not want to get a job I would encourage them not to. There are other means of organising your ability to survive if you can deal with the lack of material belongings.

For people who are interested in joining and building political movements I would encourage them to form groups. Urban collectives are very effective and being poor in a group of people rather than individually is far more durable. Working is not 100% necessary.

also. out of interest, what does the :rolleyes: rolleyes smiley mean? and yes i suppose this is an example of my newness to the forum but it isnt exactly the end of the world that i dont know this is it?

I've made you some what paranoid and I apologise. I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable to ask questions. Your newness is not a problem, neither is any lack of knowledge you may or may not have about the board. What I think is important to remember is that you do not know what peoples lives are like until you get to know them, so to make a judgement about the way someone is, behaves or interacts in the real world is a little daft.

I'm nice really :P

and welcome to che lives from your friendly neighbourhood admin :)

this doesnt really help any argument you are trying to make. just because something isnt material reality doesnt make it invalid or mean you should ignore it.

True, but neither should you take as if it were set in stone. Some people say it is immoral to have gay sex. Are they right? If you actually look at the sentence "stealing is immoral" you are saying that you have a founded truth about what is right and wrong. It is impossible to have such a truth, unless you know something I dont. That was my point.

is communism/anarchism/whatever politics you believe not an idea?

But they are ideas based on material facts.

yet you and i clearly follow these ideas despite their immaterial nature, despite the fact they are inventions of the mind.

I am a communist because of scientific analysis and the conclusion of objective facts.

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 14:25

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 04:01 PM
Who moved the thread?
I did.

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 14:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 04:02 PM
Bollocks most people who steal dont steal because of need, unless you count feeding a drug addiction a need.
Well, yes, it is a need. A physical and psychological need doctors call addiction.

Am I to take from this that you have contempt for drug addicts?

Misodoctakleidist

21st August 2004, 14:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:14 PM
no. to consider shoplifting wrong, i believe the person/people that created the property have a right to receive some reward for their efforts. shoplifting deprives them of this chance. of course the exploitation isnt fine. this also deprives workers of their full rewards, hence i am against exploitation as well as shoplifting
Are you joking?!!

Since when do workers recieve a share of profits?

Shoplifting doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to a workers wages.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 14:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:29 PM
Are you joking?!!

Since when do workers recieve a share of profits?

Shoplifting doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to a workers wages.
i never said workers received a share of the profits, i merely point out that at least a company pays the workers at least something. a shoplifter does nothing even slightly positive for the workers, and usually makes their situation worse.

and of course shoplifting makes a difference to wages. at my shop and many others staff have to pay if unaccountable losses are too high out of their wages. in some shops staff are patted down, although luckily not at mine. i just have to walk around with a bundle of receipts for everything i buy there.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 14:46

TAT:

don't want to steal anything. Maybe people steal things because they don't have the money to buy them. Some people might be forced by the social conditioning having possessions creates to steal something in order to look ok. A teenager might steal a pair of trainers to look cool in front of their peers.
i didnt mean u wanted to steal but you said maybe people steal because they want to steal as an example. however surely that and the example you just gave are to some extent at least motivated by greed. or maybe jealousy. neither of which is a particularly desirable characteristic nor one i would accept as a justification for the problems shoplifting creates.

True, but neither should you take as if it were set in stone. Some people say it is immoral to have gay sex. Are they right? If you actually look at the sentence "stealing is immoral" you are saying that you have a founded truth about what is right and wrong. It is impossible to have such a truth, unless you know something I dont. That was my point.
ok i see where you're coming from, but i have subsequently explained that my morals arent set in stone. also the only arguments against gay sex dont hold up very well. they all come from the bible and other religious texts which may well be works of fiction.

But they are ideas based on material facts.
to a certain extent so are morals. a society without morals would be chaos, which isnt a good thing unless you're an anarchist.

also, you still didnt explain what the rolleyes smiley means lol

Fidelbrand

21st August 2004, 15:32

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 10:29 PM
Are you joking?!!

Since when do workers recieve a share of profits?

Shoplifting doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to a workers wages.
Are you joking?

Since when it is a universal norm that workers don't recieve a share of profits? Don't generalise. However, i agree that their effort has not been paid fully and that the "share" ,if any, it's not a "fair share".

Generlization again? Ever imagine a possiblity that the worker will be further exploited for not monitoring "thefts" well enough? It might be used as an excuse by the exploiter, don't miss this out.

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 15:38

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 04:46 PM
a society without morals would be chaos, which isnt a good thing unless you're an anarchist.
Can you explain that please?

also, you still didnt explain what the rolleyes smiley means lol

It means "oh for goodness sake."

Fidelbrand

21st August 2004, 15:47

Dear Tat,

don't want to steal anything. Maybe people steal things because they don't have the money to buy them. Some people might be forced by the social conditioning having possessions creates to steal something in order to look ok. A teenager might steal a pair of trainers to look cool in front of their peers.

Put it respectfully, All personal opinion:
I think stealing for the sake of felt needs and physiological needs are legitimate in some sense. Like the poor people who are driven crazy just for a bite off a stale loaf. Yet, I think they should feel guilty and sorry for themselves and seek to pay the creditor back, whether it is out of conscious or a sense of duty to not to take things FREELY WIHTOUT LABOUR.

However, many of the people here are saying that since it is subversive to capitalism, therefore the act of stealing is legitimate.

Morever, the teen who steal a pair of trainers just for the sake of showing off or quenching his desire for recognition is such a sorryful pig.

Isn't the social conditions that made this stealing possible and seemingly legitimate, a wrong code of conduct or mentality that we wish to crush? Why subdue to the system's created "needs"?

Actually, do we hold different definitions of the word - NEED?

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 16:13

TAT:

Can you explain that please?
a society without social norms, which are more often than not defined by some sort of shared morality, would probably be one where anyone could just do exactly what the fuck they wanted, which would probably result in chaos, which could be likened to anarchism.

thanks for explainin bout rolley eyes smiley lol

Fidelbrand:
even though you didnt ask me, this is my definition of the word need. i would say that to need something would mean that you couldn't continue without that thing, e.g. to continue to live one needs a certain amount of food and water. however if one eats a large amount of food, one can no longer be said to need that food, merely to want that food.

i would therefore suggest that no-one needs to steal for example, a cd or a pair of the newest shoes, since it is possible to continue without that item. whilst someone might suggest they need new shoes, at the end of the day, what they really mean is they want the new shoes, since many people the world over cope without shoes.

Invader Zim

21st August 2004, 16:14

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 21 2004, 03:29 PM
Well, yes, it is a need. A physical and psychological need doctors call addiction.

Am I to take from this that you have contempt for drug addicts?
I have no problem with drugs, I see crack as no different to alcahol, both are used for leasure, yet both kill and become addicted if taken in excess on a regular basis. Solution? Dont take in excess on a regular basis, that way you dont get addicted. If people cant follow this perfectly simple rule, they are sorry individuals, contempt is the wrong word, pity however is the correct word. Pity for what they have become, and the weak willed individuals they obviously were.

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 16:16

btw im not suggesting wanting things is a bad thing, that is part of ambition inside all of us. i would however suggest that you should never take something for nothing from another person unless they:
a) offer it to you for nothing or
b) you need that thing and there is no other practical way for you to get it.

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 17:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 05:47 PM
Put it respectfully, All personal opinion:
I think stealing for the sake of felt needs and physiological needs are legitimate in some sense. .
My point is that theft is neither moral nor immoral as the concept of morality is non-existent. There is no such thing as morality.

I'm suprised to see how conservative your opinions really are. It is interesting to see when debates such as theft, drugs etc come up who really stands where.

they should feel guilty and sorry for themselves and seek to pay the creditor back, whether it is out of conscious or a sense of duty to not to take things FREELY WIHTOUT LABOUR.

I've never heard anything so anti-communist in my days. The working class and poor have no such duty or should feel any guilt whatsoever for refusing or activly participating in direct action against people who wish to profit from them.

Like it or leave it!

Morever, the teen who steal a pair of trainers just for the sake of showing off or quenching his desire for recognition is such a sorryful pig.

Yes, people who have been brainwashed and alienated by the economic and political system which, for want of a less dramatic term, enslaves them, will at times resort to some very sorrowful things...What pigs they are!

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 17:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:13 PM
a society without social norms, which are more often than not defined by some sort of shared morality, would probably be one where anyone could just do exactly what the fuck they wanted, which would probably result in chaos, which could be likened to anarchism.
How can this be "likened to anarchism"?

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 18:49

im sure it can't officially. i just dont particularly value it as a belief thats all. i dont see how, from what i know of it, an anarchist society can turn into anything other than a primitivist one, since if people just do what they want, then surely eventually people will just do what they need to survive, they wont look after others.

EDIT: i just read your new explanation of the difference between anarchism and communism and anarchism isnt actually what i thought... woops :D

i still prefer communism as a theory but i now realise that the point i was making has nothing to do with anarchism lol sorry bout that

Fidelbrand

21st August 2004, 19:03

My point is that theft is neither moral nor immoral as the concept of morality is non-existent. There is no such thing as morality.

I'm suprised to see how conservative your opinions really are. It is interesting to see when debates such as theft, drugs etc come up who really stands where.

yehh...morality is always linked to the general will as mores. However just like killing, we sure have a kind of innateness to what acts constitutes as wrong acts.

If I'm conservative, there are many more comrades that stands with me (especially on this topic of stealing). I wouldn't say you are radical or whatever, but would you reiterate what constitutes as legitimate stealing?

I've never heard anything so anti-communist in my days. The working class and poor have no such duty or should feel any guilt whatsoever for refusing or activly participating in direct action against people who wish to profit from them.

Like it or leave it!

Chill man, chill. :D

I was not talking about retirbutions nor remunerations nor the share of profit in capitalist working conditions. I was using that example as a pure example in every day life: A Poor guy starving to death, steals a loaf and feels an obligation to do something for his creditor out of good will. What "profit from them" ? What are you talking about.... ? :blink:

The Feral Underclass

21st August 2004, 19:05

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 08:49 PM
im sure it can't officially. i just dont particularly value it as a belief thats all. i dont see how, from what i know of it, an anarchist society can turn into anything other than a primitivist one, since if people just do what they want, then surely eventually people will just do what they need to survive, they wont look after others.
Read this...

Anarchism is NOT Primitivism (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25916&hl=anarchism+is+not+primitivism)

Anarchism is not about chaos and about everyone doing what they want.

If you want to know more about it read this...

Anarchism for dummies (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6421)

commiecrusader

21st August 2004, 19:13

thankyou yes i know. read the post above fidelbrand's. sorry about the confusion i realise now i was makin the point of a peckerhead lol :D

Guest1

21st August 2004, 23:51

ALright, there are limits to how much you can accomplish from such a thing. It is not a way to achieve our goals. It is, however, mostly justified. Especially if you steal from your own workplace.

We know the boss profits unfairly, so stealing from him is nothing but redistribution.

Choose targets carefully however.

Don't just steal from anywhere, and don't think breaking into people's homes is justified. Steal from businesses. Cause you don't want personal items and the like.

So long as you don't think it will bring the revolution, I see no problem with it. Just don't steal to get rich, steal for things you need. Food, clothes, etc...

But once again, I don't think it's much to do with politics. Except the idea that profits are stolen from us. It doesn't really do much to change anything.

Raisa

22nd August 2004, 04:34

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 11:54 AM
Raisa:

to a certain extent you just have to say, tough shit. in a capitalist society, there will always be things the workers can't afford. thats part of the point of exploitation. but stealing just displays immature jealousy, and damages fellow workers.

well said
IF you are that underpayed that you can't even afford the products of the company you are working for what makes you the theif?

T_SP

22nd August 2004, 08:41

Hate to be a damp squib but is this really 'Theory'?? :blink:

commiecrusader

22nd August 2004, 11:31

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 04:34 AM
IF you are that underpayed that you can't even afford the products of the company you are working for what makes you the theif?
because you are taking something for nothing, at least the company gives workers, albeit an unfairly small, reward for their work. im not trying to justify exploitation by business etc, but stealing isn't any better. two wrongs dont make a right etc etc.

DaCuBaN

22nd August 2004, 19:19

Can you believe this thread started in chit-chat? :lol: :rolleyes:

And it's of course not "Fuck you workers, I want your shit for free!", it's everything for everyone for free what I'm and any other communist is advocating.

This is what it comes down to: Under a communist society, using a gift-economy you would get everything you need: Noone would try to stop you taking what is, under such a system, yours for the taking.

We do not (yet) live under such a system, and as the thread seems to indicate noone is trying to say (anymore) that theft is revolutionary. With this in mind, there are only negative effects from a communist's perspective, so why do it?

If you steal the product of someone's labour, you may as well be stealing their personal belongings: Under our society (whether you think it right or wrong) we are commensurated with capital for our efforts. Whilst many many people are overtly and otherwise exploited, by taking something without paying for it, you are assisting in the creators' exploitation.

You become as bad as the capitalists you despise.

Morality:
The way I see it, there are two types of morality: Individual and communal, and they are essentially the same thing - the latter is simply agreement between individuals on what's 'right' or 'wrong'. In essence of course, the problem lies in the cumbersome nature of vocal communication.

Raisa

22nd August 2004, 19:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 11:31 AM
because you are taking something for nothing, at least the company gives workers, albeit an unfairly small, reward for their work. im not trying to justify exploitation by business etc, but stealing isn't any better. two wrongs dont make a right etc etc.
Their not giving them a reward, their giving them a wage so they can eat dinner and come back to work tomorrow. Wage slavery is no reward.

What makes it taking something for nothing? The worker gave nothing? The wage slave has always given more then he gets.

He's making that company, and still, he can't even afford to shop there. He is making the company its money - he SHOULD be able to afford its products.
What he took he probably already payed for, even if he never touched his own money.

An example of this is children who work in a diamond mine. Now obviously there are no diamonds if the kids dont get them out, they are the prime source of the capitalist's money, yet you know they will probably never afford a diamond in their lives. If one of them decided to take some of the diamonds, are they theives?
Why?

commiecrusader

22nd August 2004, 19:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 07:35 PM
Their not giving them a reward, their giving them a wage so they can eat dinner and come back to work tomorrow.
What makes it taking something for nothing?
You can look me in the face and tell me the worker is giving nothing?

He's making that company, and still, he can't even afford to shop there.

Apparently capitalist theft is fine, but a worker taking what is his is not.
uuuhh wtf???

a) this thread is about S-H-O-P-L-I-F-T-I-N-G not workers taking from where they work (although i still dont agree with this as it makes life for fellow workers more difficult)

b) when did i say capitalist theft is fine???

Raisa

22nd August 2004, 20:39

a) this thread is about S-H-O-P-L-I-F-T-I-N-G not workers taking from where they work

You say that now. After you started the conversation. Any way all the same this thread is an underlying debate about property.

b) when did i say capitalist theft is fine???

You never said "capitalist theft is fine" you said "because you are taking something for nothing, at least the company gives workers, albeit an unfairly small, reward for their work."
Like that makes it any better, while you criminalize the worker who takes from his own company and make it sound like he's taking something for nothing.

Misodoctakleidist

22nd August 2004, 21:02

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 11:31 AM
because you are taking something for nothing.
So? They're taking it from someone who has no right to it anyway, it's a moraly neutral action.

The only person it hurts is the shop owner so who cares? If the shop wrokers get their wages docked then they should complain to their union, using that as an argument to claim that shoplifting is wrong is equivilent to condemning the RTM for striking since they disadvantage other workers.

Djehuti

23rd August 2004, 20:02

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 08:03 PM
what the fuck are you talking about? communism isnt about not working. and stealing is the embodiment of capitalism at its most extreme. use your brain.
Yes, there is a lot of communist potentiality in refusing to let yourself be reduced to labour.

To strike, to fight for higher wages, to join the union, to struggle for your rights...That are great things, but that is not communism, that is common class struggle. Class struggle and communism is not the same thing. Class struggle is mostly a way to make your life bether inside the capitalist society, it is a struggle for the proletariat. But the class struggle do have communist potentiality, but in order to be communist, the struggle most go beyond being a struggle in the intrest of the proletarians organized as labour, and become a struggle of the proletarians organized as a class. If it fails to reach its communist potentiality, the struggle will just perserve capitalism. Class struggle is the engine of the capitalist society, it keeps it alive. But ofcource we cant stop struggleing, its against our nature, and it is not very wise. So we much see to that the all day class struggle gains a communist substance, that it seizes to be a struggle for the proletarians as labour force, a struggle for higher wages, bether conditions, etc, and begins being a struggle against capitalism. Well, in the end. Communism is the refusal of wage labour, cause that is the root of the whole system. Wage labour is one of the very foundations of the capitalist society. We must aim our struggle against it.
Sorry if i have expressed myself clumsy...think you got my point, or atleast almost.

Djehuti

23rd August 2004, 20:17

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:39 PM
so just because you live in a capitalist society you should act like a capitalist? thank god you didnt live in nazi germany or you'd be killing jews (no offence intended to anyone on here). shouldn't you live by your morals? or do you not consider stealing to be wrong in a communist society either? also i very much doubt the things you are 'stealing back' are from 'your labour'. you are taking something that another person has worked to produce, and they get nothing in return. it is the ultimate example of capitalism. at least in sweatshops the workers get something. you would rather give them nothing.
"so just because you live in a capitalist society you should act like a capitalist? thank god you didnt live in nazi germany or you'd be killing jews"

This is just silly.

"also i very much doubt the things you are 'stealing back' are from 'your labour'. you are taking something that another person has worked to produce, and they get nothing in return."

There not really common today that a worker produces a whole product.
That was like 500 years ago.

And why is that bad? Its not that I steal from the worker, he never owned the damn product in the first way. The capitalist owned it right from the beginning.

I say this, every product i worked to produce for a capitalist...you are free to steal. And I think most workers agree with me. Sure as hell that i rather see my products end up in the hands of some worker who refused to pay, then someone who bought it from the capitalist.

Djehuti

23rd August 2004, 20:34

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:14 PM
no. to consider shoplifting wrong, i believe the person/people that created the property have a right to receive some reward for their efforts.
They get their wage. And they wont get anything less because somebody steals the products instead of buying them. But they can get something more, if they steal. Face it, almost everyone steals. I know alot who steals from their jobs, and even more that steals in stores, etc. And guess what? They are not the teenager riot anarchist bla bla kind of types, they are ordinary peope. I barely know anyone that fits in in the common thief type, criminal basass people...i dont know any of those. Almost everyone I know is quite normal really, ordinary working class men and women. And many of them steals, and many of their friends do so to.

Fordism is ended, and with it keynesianism. Capitalism has changed, and the capitalist class has gone on an offensive. But the workers struggles arent so much the old classic strikes and demonstrations anymore, not the big flashy actions and capitalism has rendered the union almost worhless. Here in Sweden, the union is more an enemy of the working class then a friend. The only single possitive thing about the union in sweden today is that it slows the process in wich the rights of the working class are being demolished. Beyond that, the union have played its part.

The result is that the class struggle has fled the union meetings, and the working class has begone to organized autonomous of the unions and the traditional working class parties and communist parties. It is not really intresting longer, not effective anymore. I think that the old left, good ol' leninists and their likes have failed to notice the development of capitalism and the struggles of the working class. It is not the 1920thies anymore, the working class does not look the same, nor struggle the same anymore. The liberal idiots take this as a proof that the class struggle is basicly dead, but it has only changed form, and though it is weakened and confused dou to the change in production, it still goes on, though primary in other forms, like obstruktion for example, that is very used among the working class these days, and probably much more effective then most strikes.
Sabotage is also common, and I really think that we could also count in theft here.
Much of the theft is really an attack on capitalism, though you refuse to see it.

monkeymullen

24th August 2004, 01:33

i wouldnt shoplift.. all it does is drive prices up thus fueling capitalism

+ its too easy to get caught

Djehuti

24th August 2004, 05:40

Dont you think that the capitalists are allready putting as high prices as they dare?
Why shouldt they? Except if they try to get a advantage over the concurents by lowering the prices and thus getting more costumers.

commiecrusader

24th August 2004, 19:06

first things first, sorry if english isnt your first language djehuti but i dont understand a lot of what you say but i will try to answer anyway.

Yes, there is a lot of communist potentiality in refusing to let yourself be reduced to labour.

To strike, to fight for higher wages, to join the union, to struggle for your rights...That are great things, but that is not communism, that is common class struggle. Class struggle and communism is not the same thing. Class struggle is mostly a way to make your life bether inside the capitalist society, it is a struggle for the proletariat. But the class struggle do have communist potentiality, but in order to be communist, the struggle most go beyond being a struggle in the intrest of the proletarians organized as labour, and become a struggle of the proletarians organized as a class. If it fails to reach its communist potentiality, the struggle will just perserve capitalism. Class struggle is the engine of the capitalist society, it keeps it alive. But ofcource we cant stop struggleing, its against our nature, and it is not very wise. So we much see to that the all day class struggle gains a communist substance, that it seizes to be a struggle for the proletarians as labour force, a struggle for higher wages, bether conditions, etc, and begins being a struggle against capitalism. Well, in the end. Communism is the refusal of wage labour, cause that is the root of the whole system. Wage labour is one of the very foundations of the capitalist society. We must aim our struggle against it.
Sorry if i have expressed myself clumsy...think you got my point, or atleast almost.
sorry i dont really understand this point at all. but shoplifting DOESNT IN ANY WAY HELP TO DESTROY CAPITALISM. im not saying to try and promote capitalism, but if you insist on lifting, it is not in the cause of destroying capitalism. that is a joke.

"so just because you live in a capitalist society you should act like a capitalist? thank god you didnt live in nazi germany or you'd be killing jews"

This is just silly.
no its not. it is merely a metaphorical demonstration of what shoplifting is. it is a capitalist thing to do- taking something for nothing with no consideration give to those affected, in the same way that killing jews was a nazi thing to do.

"also i very much doubt the things you are 'stealing back' are from 'your labour'. you are taking something that another person has worked to produce, and they get nothing in return."

There not really common today that a worker produces a whole product.
That was like 500 years ago.

And why is that bad? Its not that I steal from the worker, he never owned the damn product in the first way. The capitalist owned it right from the beginning.
so, what difference does that make at the end of the day. i never said the worker owned it. but the worker(s to make you happy) still shouldnt have some thieving little shit reducing their already small pay.

I say this, every product i worked to produce for a capitalist...you are free to steal. And I think most workers agree with me. Sure as hell that i rather see my products end up in the hands of some worker who refused to pay, then someone who bought it from the capitalist.
a noble sentiment, but when you consider most people who steal are middle class pricks with nothing better to do who dont understand the consequences because mother and father pay for all their stuff, i and i think most workers would feel pretty fucking pissed off that these pricks were making life worse.

They get their wage. And they wont get anything less because somebody steals the products instead of buying them.
do you not read? we have already established that many business reduce pay if too much stuff is getting stolen. and this is not just based on my own experience. plus its not only money. if you like your boss or some fat security guy touching your balls as they pat you down when you leave work then fine but i fucking wouldnt and im glad my work dont go that far but many do.

Sabotage is also common, and I really think that we could also count in theft here.
Much of the theft is really an attack on capitalism, though you refuse to see it.
how is theft attacking capitalism? it might be because you dont like capitalism but it wont fucking change anything will it? it just makes life for people who are prepared to do a days work for a days crappy pay.

oh and clearly since your swedish english is your second language so sorry for not being able to understand it properly lol it would be much worse if i was trying to talk swedish lol

as for you raisa lol,

You say that now. After you started the conversation. Any way all the same this thread is an underlying debate about property.
guerillaradio started this thread and when did i start a question about other forms of theft?

You never said "capitalist theft is fine" you said "because you are taking something for nothing, at least the company gives workers, albeit an unfairly small, reward for their work."
Like that makes it any better, while you criminalize the worker who takes from his own company and make it sound like he's taking something for nothing.
damn right i criminalize that worker. lifting or stealing from your own workplace is a selfish thing to do. does it benefit anyone else? no. does it help bring down capitalism? no. does it make work more unpleasant for anyone else working where you steal from? yes. does it make you feel big like your messing with the man? i guess it probs does. do you enjoy whatever you stole and laughing at those suffering? you must do.

emmissary

27th August 2004, 07:44

I work for a relly big restaurant chain where I am the head manage and i see my employees eating the food which is stealing all the time. i usually dont bother with them. i also know that my cashiers take money. it is inevitable that you will be caught. it depends on the person in charge. i fire people all the time for stealing. at the same time it is very easy for me to take a few bucks and i do it all the time.

Ian

27th August 2004, 07:50

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 05:44 PM
i fire people all the time for stealing.
You're a fucking fuckwit.

The Feral Underclass

27th August 2004, 08:40

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 09:44 AM
i fire people all the time for stealing. at the same time it is very easy for me to take a few bucks and i do it all the time.
So you stop someones ability to earn a wage by firing them from a shit job for the very thing you do.

You steal money, and then fire workers for doing the same. Your not only a fuck wit mate, your a hypcritical ****, and you should be beaten with the serving trays!

commiecrusader

27th August 2004, 18:02

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 27 2004, 08:40 AM
So you stop someones ability to earn a wage by firing them from a shit job for the very thing you do.

You steal money, and then fire workers for doing the same. Your not only a fuck wit mate, your a hypcritical ****, and you should be beaten with the serving trays!
lol

i think it is fair enough to fire someone for stealing, particularly if they are warned once and then persist, i do think it hypocritical to do the same and still fire someone else. thats fucked up. fire yourself.

Raisa

28th August 2004, 08:40

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 07:44 AM
i fire people all the time for stealing. at the same time it is very easy for me to take a few bucks and i do it all the time.
Then why do you fire them?
What good does it do?

commiecrusader

30th August 2004, 21:44

for all you doubters, this is why shoplifting makes work more unpleasant for shopworkers.

today this woman who looked like some sort of crack-whore came into the Co-Op where i work, and was acting all suspicious. now, since it's part of my job to stop shoplifters, i had to surreptitiously (does this mean what i think?) watch her whilst doing other things. i was doing this slyly whilst filling the milk and stuff but because she was so paranoid cos she was lifting she was watching me as well. she then just flipped out, asked me what was wrong with me and what my problem was. i said nothing and she then took two frozen meals and headed towards the till so i thought maybe she was going to pay, and stopped watching. however having talked to the person on till, she only paid for one meal, and had put the other in her bag she had with her, and told the person on till she'd paid for it earlier.

why do i and other honest (but admittedly resentful) workers have to deal with this shit? it wasnt like she didn't have any money either, her wallet was jammed full with it. she was just a selfish *****. shoplifting makes other workers suffer. PERIOD.

Capn An

30th August 2004, 21:49

I hate shoplifting, it is a waste. I've never stolen anything in my life and never plan to. I have too much of a concious to steal, I feel really bad when I do anything to another person that could hurt them.

Guest1

31st August 2004, 14:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 05:44 PM
today this woman who looked like some sort of crack-whore came into the Co-Op where i work....
:huh:

Doesn't your case completely not matter to this thread? Of course the workers will get harmed, they own the fucking place!

DaCuBaN

31st August 2004, 14:36

A co-op employee is wage slave like any other; they have the choice to join the co-op or simply be employed by it.

Either way, I believe it's still valid. If nothing else it shows why shoplifting is incompatible with even ethical retailing.

Michael De Panama

31st August 2004, 18:51

I really wish I'd noticed this thread earlier.

I'd like to ask the communists, socialists, Marxists, or anarchists who have a moral resentment to shoplifting whether you are the same revolutionaries that buy Che Guevara shirts.

Too many of the leftists on this message board concern themselves with the future of their cause. Shoplifting isn't an act of revolution. It's, quite simply, an act of getting something without contributing to the capitalist system.

Shoplifters aren't out to destroy the capitalist machine once and for all. They're simply living part of the lifestyle of someone who opposes it, or someone who just doesn't give a fuck. Either way, it's better than supporting the system.

Personally, I feel better about myself, morally, for stealing from a company like Wal Mart than I would for giving them money.

If it costs Nike around a dollar to assemble a pair of shoes in some Malaysian factory that are sold for a hundred dollars in America, the extra $99 comes right out of the consumer's pocket and into the hands of the capitalists.

How does this sudden increase in value come about?

Capitalists steal money that rightfully belongs to the workers directly out of the pockets of the rest of the working class.

"Profit" is just another word for "theft."

Yeah, the capitalist has to do some work to get his shit on the shelf for the public to see. There's no denying that. Without the capitalist, there would be nobody to extract this profit and, thus, the shoes would stay at their original worth of around one dollar.

Likewise, the shoplifter has to do his or her fair share of work in order to get out the store with the merchandise.

You people forget that the very essence of capitalism is theft.

commiecrusader

31st August 2004, 22:05

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 31 2004, 02:00 PM
Doesn't your case completely not matter to this thread? Of course the workers will get harmed, they own the fucking place!
okay first things first. no-one who works at the co-op i do is actually a member, it does jack shit good for you. secondly the harm i was referring to wasn't in money, although it does if enough stuff goes missing, but just the abuse received. why the fuck should people have to put up with it?

Michael De Panama:

Too many of the leftists on this message board concern themselves with the future of their cause. Shoplifting isn't an act of revolution. It's, quite simply, an act of getting something without contributing to the capitalist system.

Shoplifters aren't out to destroy the capitalist machine once and for all. They're simply living part of the lifestyle of someone who opposes it, or someone who just doesn't give a fuck. Either way, it's better than supporting the system.
oooh look a 'proper' leftist. yeah stealing is fighting capitalism yeah because the capitalist won't take any profits they lose out of their employees wages will they? isnt part most left wing ideologies looking out for other workers or people not in the upper class? guess not. lets make the capitalists abuse their workers more, because i dont wanna get a job because working makes me capitalist....

to conclude, do you have a clue what you're talking about???

If it costs Nike around a dollar to assemble a pair of shoes in some Malaysian factory that are sold for a hundred dollars in America, the extra $99 comes right out of the consumer's pocket and into the hands of the capitalists.

How does this sudden increase in value come about?
because the capitalists exploit the poor and the desire of the majority of the masses to pay a ridiculous ammount for a brand name.

Capitalists steal money that rightfully belongs to the workers directly out of the pockets of the rest of the working class.
and so do shoplifters.

"Profit" is just another word for "theft."
guess what. 'theft' also means 'theft'. but is either profit through exploitation or theft better than the other? dont think so, both lead to problems for the workers.

You people forget that the very essence of capitalism is theft.
oops fell into some kind of contradiction there. i though by shoplifting you were fighting capitalism? but wait, isn't shoplifting theft? my word it is, what do you know. and didnt you just say that theft is the essence of capitalism? yes you did. so by thieving, all you are doing is being ultra-capitalist. woops. :lol:

Che y Marijuana:

So shoplifting is only incompatible with ethical retail outlets. Shoplifting from anywhere that has institutionalized theft is completely justified.
i would like to agree and to a certain extent i do. theft is more wrong against an ethical outlet. however i would say it is still wrong against an unethical shop, since the workers still bear the brunt of whatever retaliation the management does in response.

socialistfuture

1st September 2004, 04:01

I'd like to ask the communists, socialists, Marxists, or anarchists who have a moral resentment to shoplifting whether you are the same revolutionaries that buy Che Guevara shirts.

Too many of the leftists on this message board concern themselves with the future of their cause. Shoplifting isn't an act of revolution. It's, quite simply, an act of getting something without contributing to the capitalist system.

Shoplifters aren't out to destroy the capitalist machine once and for all. They're simply living part of the lifestyle of someone who opposes it, or someone who just doesn't give a fuck. Either way, it's better than supporting the system.

Well put - i got che shirts and its been a while since ive nicked anything - but if i ever get the urge i'll feel much better about it seing it put that way. im so sick of working for shit pay but i dont want a huge loan to to to uni.
u work all day and then it takes so little time till its all gone just on food and living costs.

im living with my parents cause i dont want even more gone (rent etc) - but im gunna have to.

maybe its squat and steal time..

and man back off the irish - theyve had enough shit from the brit.

other minorites supported hitler cause they hated britian - didnt mean they were facist - well thats a reason y we need NO SUPERPOWERS - the whole the lesser of two evils is still evil (im not saying hitler was the lesser of two evils).

freedom to ireland - and freedom to eat and live

Michael De Panama

1st September 2004, 18:23

oooh look a 'proper' leftist. yeah stealing is fighting capitalism yeah because the capitalist won't take any profits they lose out of their employees wages will they? isnt part most left wing ideologies looking out for other workers or people not in the upper class? guess not. lets make the capitalists abuse their workers more, because i dont wanna get a job because working makes me capitalist....

to conclude, do you have a clue what you're talking about???
I am a working man.

Workers get paid a fixed sum of money, depending on how many hours they work. We don't lose money if our boss's inventory is low.

If a boss is going to "abuse" their workers because his salary is getting smaller and smaller, the workers better fucking fight back.

If a boss is going to steal money out of their employees' paychecks, the workers better fucking fight back.

Low inventory does not justify employers to take from their workers. So fuck off, you ignorant piece of shit.

Capitalists steal money that rightfully belongs to the workers directly out of the pockets of the rest of the working class.and so do shoplifters.
Exactly.

guess what. 'theft' also means 'theft'. but is either profit through exploitation or theft better than the other? dont think so, both lead to problems for the workers.
The words "better" or "worse" mean nothing to me. Theft and profit are equal. I live in the nation that is the heart of multinational capitalism. I have every reason to steal, and so do you.

Again, what problems does theft bring for workers who are paid hourly?

oops fell into some kind of contradiction there. i though by shoplifting you were fighting capitalism? but wait, isn't shoplifting theft? my word it is, what do you know. and didnt you just say that theft is the essence of capitalism? yes you did. so by thieving, all you are doing is being ultra-capitalist. woops.
First of all, I never said shoplifters were fighting capitalism.

I said, as you can plainly read:
"Shoplifters aren't out to destroy the capitalist machine once and for all. They're simply living part of the lifestyle of someone who opposes it, or someone who just doesn't give a fuck. Either way, it's better than supporting the system."

Shoplifting is theft. Theft is the essence of capitalism. Yet, by stealing, am I engaging in free trade? Am I supporting the corporations I steal from?

A capitalist steals from the workers and the consumers. A thief like me or Alan steals from a capitalist.

And, you know, I really don't give a fuck about having words tacked on me. Call me "ultra-capitalist" if you will.

In the end, you'll be the one breastfeeding the bourgeoisie. Not me.

Kez

1st September 2004, 21:06

Originally posted by Michael De [email protected] 1 2004, 06:23 PM
Low inventory does not justify employers to take from their workers. So fuck off, you ignorant piece of shit.

who said employers were just?

if capitalism was about justice we wouldnt be here, prick.

a boss does whatever the fuck he/she wants, morals do not play part of this.

the goal of a capitalist is to make as much money as possible, so when an obstacle sucgh as theft comes into play, easiest solution to maintain their goal is to take advantage of wage-slaves.

so it is you who is "an ignorant piece of shit" and maybe it should be you who should "fuck off"

Michael De Panama

1st September 2004, 21:55

I never said employers were just. I said that workers shouldn't ever put up with that sort of shit. If they do, it's their own fault for allowing themselves to be exploited even more.

In the unlikely scenerio that your fucking boss is taking money out of your paycheck because his own inventory is low due to a few shoplifters, arrest the pig motherfucker.

It's that simple.

In a more likely situation, an employer would see that he is losing money, hire a couple of loss-prevention people to reduce shrinkage and, thus, create more jobs.

In an even more likely situation, an employer wouldn't do shit. Companies on such a large scale as Wal Mart, for instance, have thousands of stores worldwide, millions of employees, and billions of consumers. I, myself, am a former Wal Mart employee. Nobody I've worked with has ever been affected by shrinkage except for salaried managers. And I couldn't give a fuck less for them.

Feel free to give me another ridiculous argument.

I'd really like an elaboration as to exactly how shoplifting negatively affects workers from people who have actually seen this happen firsthand.

Kez

1st September 2004, 22:33

had you read the post you would have seen examples of how it gives negative effects on workers. ie those who have been affected are posting on this fucking thread!

No shit the workers should fight, well done you true re-re-revolutionary you.
But the employer doesnt go round saying "im gonna dock ur wages coz some oik robbed some fags" he simply doesnt increase wages to inflation rates, or doesnt give out proper safety equipement, cutting corners at the workers expense to regain the costs lost, due to oiks such as Alan the "guerilla" or rather, the gobshite.

Michael De Panama

2nd September 2004, 01:52

I asked for some examples of how it negatively affects the workers from people who have actually seen it firsthand. Not a bunch of vague hypotheses.

Who here has worked for a major corporation, and has been fucked over because of shrinkage? How were you fucked over?

Nobody has given me any examples yet.

People stole from my old job all the time. I still got a thirty cent raise after my first 90 days.

If an employer is going to hold back on giving his workers a payraise, that's his own fucking decision. Whether or not shrinkage is up or down doesn't matter as much as whether or not an employer feels it's absolutely beneficial to give their workers a bit more money.

And, I'm not the one who made the example of an employer taking money out of his worker's paychecks. "DaCuBaN" did. I would never make such a ridiculous example.

And, please, understand that I'm not saying capitalists aren't going to fuck their workers over because they're losing money. There definitely is a possibility that the workers will feel part of the burden their employers face.

If your boss is doing this, you have every right and reason to fight back.

Ultimately, however, the burden is always on the capitalists first.

Nas

2nd September 2004, 02:45

crime pays !

i use to steal Cds, books , DVDs, clothes but i dont anymore i felt it was wrong its not because i got caught , i never got caught , its like ethics, a poor kid works and earns his money to buy a CD while i just steal it without giving anything , where is the justice there , if i want to be someone in life , speacially if i want to represent justice and equality i, cant keep doing this ,
sooner or later you will somehow pay for the crime you did

gaf

2nd September 2004, 19:32

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 07:38 AM
You call me a nationalist - you're a Bourgesoie Reformist!

Where did I say I was a reformist? If you noticed, I was branded a reformist by TAT/CyM (cant remember which). Just because they say it don’t make it so. If violent or democratic socialism were to be formed I would support it: -

you're a Bourgesoie Reformist!

Or can spell!

LOL, yet again you prove your a hypocrite. That’s not how you spell "Bourgeois", nor is it an accurate description, though the "Bourgeoisie" did aim to reform, they aimed to reform so that they, the rich elements of the middle classes would replace the Émigré’s, as the controlling class in 18th-19th century western Europe. As such the "Bourgeoisie" would never support economic or political equality. If you also hadn't noticed the "Bourgeoisie" actually used revolution far more than any Marxist to achieve change. The 1848 revolutions, the great revolution of France, etc. So all in all I think you've been proved wrong on this one... completely.

you call me a nationalist for wanting to smash the state and replace it with worker self-management?

What you support is an unwelcome land plan which denies the rights of the Northern Irish people to the right of self determination. You seek to create further disunity among the working classes, making any progress far harder to achieve. You also seek to replace the British ruling class with a Catholic extremist ruling class, which is infinitely worse, especially if you are a teenager who has been stupid enough to get pregnant.

Now that’s bloody hilarious, the fact that you are so ignorant.

I'm not a nationalist.

Yeah you are, you support a nationalist movement, thus you are a nationalist.

The IRA didn't ideaologically support the Nazis.

No, just aided and abetted them... which makes them lackeys to Nazism. Nor is that how you spell “ideologically”.

I'm not a "phsyical force" republican and I don't support the IRA so I'm not by association a Nazi as you aledge, even if your logic was sound.

Then why have you supported the IRA at every turn to defend them and their actions? Why did you seek to defend them and their history, when it was shown that they supported the Nazis? Your a liar as well as a hypocrite. And that’s not how you spell “physical”.
you are beasy but youare just proving you are living in a schollyard
both "nationalist" proud and stupid

Invader Zim

2nd September 2004, 19:57

you are beasy but youare just proving you are living in a schollyard
both "nationalist" proud and stupid

Well thats great... I can see your learning English fast, the insult came across great, shame about the rest.

But maybe you actually want to argue the point, i'm quite prepaired to give you and education as well.

gaf

2nd September 2004, 21:12

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 07:57 PM
you are beasy but youare just proving you are living in a schollyard
both "nationalist" proud and stupid

Well thats great... I can see your learning English fast, the insult came across great, shame about the rest.

But maybe you actually want to argue the point, i'm quite prepaired to give you and education as well.
don't need any made it my self

commiecrusader

2nd September 2004, 21:19

Originally posted by Michael De [email protected] 2 2004, 01:52 AM
I asked for some examples of how it negatively affects the workers from people who have actually seen it firsthand. Not a bunch of vague hypotheses.

Who here has worked for a major corporation, and has been fucked over because of shrinkage? How were you fucked over?

Nobody has given me any examples yet.

People stole from my old job all the time. I still got a thirty cent raise after my first 90 days.

If an employer is going to hold back on giving his workers a payraise, that's his own fucking decision. Whether or not shrinkage is up or down doesn't matter as much as whether or not an employer feels it's absolutely beneficial to give their workers a bit more money.
okay michael lets stop this cockrocket here. you want examples how workers suffer when shoplifting occurs?

i believe i posted saying about firsthand experience of abuse from a shoplifter. i was watching her cos thats part of my job (does that even matter to you?) and she flipped out and was shouting what was wrong with me and all that shite. why the fuck do i deserve that, im just doing a job. but i guess that means ive got my head stuck up a bourgeoisis arse right?

And, I'm not the one who made the example of an employer taking money out of his worker's paychecks. "DaCuBaN" did. I would never make such a ridiculous example.
actually, if you read the thread, i was the first one to give this example (im pretty sure anyway). but the fact that others such as Kez and DaCuBaN also bring this up and defend it shows that it isnt such a riduculous example YOU POMPOUS PIECE OF SHIT.

And, please, understand that I'm not saying capitalists aren't going to fuck their workers over because they're losing money. There definitely is a possibility that the workers will feel part of the burden their employers face.

If your boss is doing this, you have every right and reason to fight back.
believe me i would if i was in a position to do so. but im not in a position to do so. if i did, i would lose my job. im currently looking for another one, but there is a shortage at the moment, so theres not much i can do since money is necessary to get buy in this system without reducing myself to some thieving little shite. i expect this doesn't matter to you though, since your probably SOME FUCKING CHAMPAGNE SOCIALIST WHO THINKS STEALING MAKES HIM COOL AND REBELLIOUS AND WHO'S 'MUMMSY AND DADDSY-WADDSY' THINK HE'S 'FRIGHTFULLY NAUGHTY'.

to conclude, fuck off.

Nas:
its nice to see a shoplifter who isn't stuck in some 'criminality is cool' mindset. someone with a conscience.

Kez

2nd September 2004, 21:37

Invader Zim

2nd September 2004, 21:39

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 10:12 PM
don't need any made it my self
Pardon?

Well what ever mate.

Comrade BNS

3rd September 2004, 05:59

Shoplifting isn't wrong, capitalism is. Shoplifting is a refusal to participate in a consumerist economy. Everything you buy merely increases your complicity within capitalism.

I work in a supermarket

:lol:

and i suppose working in a supermarket DOESN'T increase your complicity with capitalism?

Don't try and soil communist ideals with your farse ideological crusade! just admit to being an immoral cretin and we'll be done.

Comrade BNS

gaf

3rd September 2004, 23:51

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 09:08 PM
"point out just one Marxist achivment in Britain which has actually made the workers lives better. Just one, and I will accept defeat"

Militant's intervention against the Poll Tax.

For a start the majority of protest regarding poll tax was in the form of passive resistance, and peaceful demonstration, a few riots did occur, but the reason it failed is because vertually no one paid it.

Second instead all we got was an increase in the almost identical council tax, it achived nothing.

Third, the majority of demo's were not by or for marxist.
this is becoming revolution lifting were it wasn't
you surely never had to survive :D

Invader Zim

4th September 2004, 00:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:51 AM
this is becoming revolution lifting were it wasn't
you surely never had to survive :D
What? Say that again, I dont understand this gibberish.

Say it in French and I will translate it.

gaf

4th September 2004, 00:23

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:14 AM
What? Say that again, I dont understand this gibberish.

Say it in French and I will translate it.
calm down enigma you sure sound a intolerant bastaaard
but yeah i reapeat did you ever had to survive?

Invader Zim

4th September 2004, 00:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:23 AM
calm down enigma you sure sound a intolerant bastaaard
but yeah i reapeat did you ever had to survive?
What the hell are you chatting about? Intolerant? I cant understand you, post it in french.

and what does survival have to do with the poll tax or the social reform of 19th century Britian?

gaf

4th September 2004, 00:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:26 AM
What the hell are you chatting about? Intolerant? I cant understand you, post it in french.

and what does survival have to do with the poll tax or the social reform of 19th century Britian?
you won't understand it any way
did you ever ever had to survive?

Invader Zim

4th September 2004, 00:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:28 AM
you won't understand it any way
did you ever ever had to survive?
you won't understand it any way

Try me.

did you ever ever had to survive?

Survive what??

gaf

4th September 2004, 00:32

gaf

4th September 2004, 00:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:29 AM
you won't understand it any way

Try me.

did you ever ever had to survive?

Survive what??
yes i ll try

you just never had to survive.because then there is no wat

Invader Zim

4th September 2004, 00:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:35 AM
yes i ll try

you just never had to survive.because then there is no wat
yes i ll try

Well go on then.

you just never had to survive

Again, survive what? A Car wreck? A shitty job? Annoying spammers on the internet? A heart attack? Reading Mein Kampf? Attendng very stupid revolutionary meatings in a youth club?

What are you asking me?

gaf

4th September 2004, 00:51

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:45 AM
Alright you got me, that still makes absolutly no sense.

"car reduction proletarian shops"
auto mean self
reduction you can understand,don't you
and proletarian too

shop lifting man

and for the what you will just have to prove it
sorry taste it

Invader Zim

4th September 2004, 00:54

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:51 AM
auto mean self
reduction you can understand,don't you
and proletarian too

shop lifting man

and for the what you will just have to prove it
Ahh I get you know... I think.

Well I dont shoplift from anyone, and a proletarian shop is a contradiction, where I live.

and for the what you will just have to prove it

I still have absolutly no idea what it is exactly you would like me to prove. I also have no idea what specific thing you are asking me, if I have survived.

gaf

4th September 2004, 00:56

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:54 AM
Ahh I get you know... I think.

Well I dont shoplift from anyone, and a proletarian shop is a contradiction, where I live.
where then

Invader Zim

4th September 2004, 00:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:56 AM
where then
Where what? Where I shop where I live?

What exactly is it you want to know?

quelle est votre question ?
was ist Ihre Frage?
wat is uw vraag?
che cosa è la vostra domanda?

http://world.altavista.com/tr

gaf

4th September 2004, 01:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 12:56 AM
where then
and you right it is just a hollands expression to say you go organized and steal from big supermarkt where you give pamphlet to explain action(also for insurance).then you run away.shearing the rest.....
when you have to survive .be organised

gaf

4th September 2004, 01:07

sorry but our replys cross other now and not in a good order
i mean where do you live

Invader Zim

4th September 2004, 01:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 02:04 AM
and you right it is just a hollands expression to say you go organized and steal from big supermarkt where you give pamphlet to explain action(also for insurance).then you run away.shearing the rest.....
when you have to survive .be organised
ahh I get you now... no I have never starved to thepoint where I had to steal in order to survive. You see I went out and got a job.

i mean where do you live

I live in the UK.

gaf

4th September 2004, 01:11

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:09 AM
ahh I get you now... no I have never starved to thepoint where I had to steal in order to survive. You see I went out and got a job.
i too

pandora

6th September 2004, 00:29

Stealing sucks, each person makes their own choice, if you send someone back to a refugee situation (illegal alien) for stealing from your store by using the police then you incur bad karma as well. The best thing is to forbid them from the store, and with kids call the parents under the threat of the police. Of course it's an illegal detain then, but most kids won't complain over getting a record.

I was a shoplifting kid, i lived in the projects and my mom didn't give a fuck about getting me clothes, I mean even a bra for years into puberty, so I stole some jeans and a bra, but one of the girls who didn't need to steal got greedy and we all got busted. We were getting wild anyway, but Sears put the fear of death in us, I didn't go into a Sears for a long time, which is great, less spending.

I think shoplifting is wrong but two wrongs don't make a right. I think the five year old who steals milk for his sister is doing the right thing, most of the people who were deported from Wales, Scotland and Ireland to Australia in the 1800's were deported for the same thing.

In case of starvation, in the face of devastating wealth it is okey to take what you need, it is a result of haves and have nots, and it is in the bible even as such.

Interesting those Capitalists who are so invested in prop rights over the rights of man and woman often quote the bible, it serves them not in this instance.