Employment Outlook Good

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Manpower Employment Outlook Survey Reveals Continued Optimism in U.S. Hiring Through 3rd Quarter, Marking Vast Improvement in Employer Confidence From A Year Ago

MILWAUKEE (June 15, 2004) – U.S. employers continue to show optimism in their hiring plans moving into the third quarter, according to the latest Manpower Employment Outlook Survey, conducted quarterly by Manpower Inc.
Of the 16,000 U.S. employers that were surveyed, 30% expect to add to their payrolls in the third quarter, while 6% predict a decline in staff levels. Fifty-nine percent of employers surveyed foresee no change in job prospects, and 5% are unsure of their hiring expectations. Without seasonal adjustments, the third quarter outlook is slightly more positive than the April – June period. With seasonal variations removed from the survey results, the employment outlook for the coming quarter is identical to second quarter and represents one of the largest year-over-year increases in the survey history.
“In our second quarter survey, U.S. employers reported the strongest employment outlook since early 2001. The fact that employers expect to hire at the same pace in the third quarter suggests that they continue to feel confident about the sustainability of demand for their products and services. This is good news for job seekers across the country,” said Jeffrey A. Joerres, Chairman & CEO of Manpower Inc.
Those looking for a job are likely to find strong job prospects across the majority of industry sectors surveyed, including Construction, Durable and Non-Durable Goods Manufacturing, Mining, Services and Wholesale/Retail Trade.
“Employer confidence within the Manufacturing sector has steadily improved for the past four quarters of our survey,” said Joerres. “The beginning of 2001 was the last time Manufacturers were this willing to envision help wanted signs in their windows.”
Job prospects in three of the four U.S. regions, including the Northeast, Midwest and South, are similar to those reported in the second quarter survey. The West is the only region


-MORE-
where employers are more optimistic in their hiring plans than they were from April to June. Employers across the regions are unanimous in predicting a much healthier hiring pace than a year ago.
The Manpower Employment Outlook Survey is conducted in a total of 19 countries and territories, including interviews with more than 35,000 employers. Hiring activity for the third quarter is expected to increase in the majority of the world’s labor markets compared to last year at this time. Employers in five countries – Belgium, Hong Kong, Netherlands, Singapore and Spain – reported their most optimistic hiring intentions since Manpower began surveying these countries a year ago.
“The third quarter survey data shows the strongest employment expectations in the United States, Canada, Hong Kong and New Zealand,” said Joerres. “Employers in many countries are echoing their intentions to hire just as optimistically as they did in our second quarter survey. This is a good sign. Compared with a year ago, hiring intentions have improved in 16 of 19 countries.”
The next Manpower Employment Outlook Survey will be released on September 14, 2004 to report hiring expectations for the fourth quarter of 2004.

My Webpage (http://www.manpower.com/mpcom/viewMeos?name=US_3Q04Release_FINAL.doc)

[Sabocat]

What's interesting is that your article is dated June 15th, and March and June numbers were recently adjusted down 60,000 jobs, and July expected to see about 240,000 jobs created, saw only 32,000.

The market responded predictably.

Perhaps the Manpower Inc. poll is not necessarily the leading authority on job creation.

July jobless figures debunk claims of US economic recovery
By Joseph Kay
7 August 2004


The US Labor Department reported Friday that American companies added a meager 32,000 jobs in July, well below the 228,000 projected by economists. Job growth figures for March and June were also revised downward by 61,000 from those previously reported.

The July figures represented the slowest growth since December 2003.

The figures are a further indication of the hollowness of the supposed economic recovery touted by the Bush administration. Working people have been particularly hard hit in recent weeks, as wages and employment have stagnated and inflation has begun to rise.

Scott Brown, chief economist at Raymond James, responded to the figures, noting, “It’s a huge disappointment... It implies a very sharp revision to the overall outlook for the economy.”

Stocks fell sharply on the news. The Dow Jones Industrial Average fell 1.5 percent and the Nasdaq dropped 2.5 percent. Both indices closed at their lowest levels of the year, adding to steep drops on Thursday. The dollar fell more than a cent against the euro, as the currency market anticipated future weakness in the US economy and a decreased potential for interest rate increases by the Federal Reserve.

Especially affected were the transport equipment industry (21,000 jobs lost due to weaknesses in the auto industry) and the retail trade industry (19,000 jobs lost). The manufacturing sector gained a paltry 10,000 jobs, after losing 1,000 in June.

In a speech in Washington on Friday, President George Bush made the absurd claim that the US economy was “strong and getting stronger,” citing the “stimulus” provided by the massive tax cuts for the wealthy. Administration officials pointed to a 0.1 percent drop in the official unemployment rate for July as evidence of continued growth.

Last month, Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan in testimony before Congress declared: “While there has been weakness in June...I might say that July seems to be somewhat better, even though we are going through a soft patch.”

In fact, there is every indication that the shallow economic recovery in the first quarter of 2004, which had no real effect on the living standards of broad sections of the population, is collapsing. A series of economic indicators point in this direction.

The government reported last week that the economy grew by just 3 percent rate in the second quarter of 2004, down from 4.5 percent in the first quarter. Sales figures at retailers remained weak for the second month in a row in July, rising only 3.1 percent. The sales numbers were released on Thursday, contributing to the sharp decline in the stock market that day.

John Morris, senior retail analyst at Harris Nesbitt, warned that sales may continue to slump in future months: “It throws some water on the view that June was just a hiccup. You have two months in a row of lackluster sales. I think we are at a critical period for forecasting the health of retailers.”

Another report released early in the week by the Commerce Department found that personal spending dropped an inflation-adjusted 0.9 percent in June, the biggest fall since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. The spending slump has been attributed in part to the sharp rise in oil prices in recent weeks. In trading on Friday, the price of oil reached a record high of nearly $45 a barrel, before closing at just over $44.

In addition, construction spending dropped in June by 0.3 percent. Coupled with a revised increase in May of a mere 0.1 percent, the construction figures indicate a cooling in the housing market, which could have major consequences for the economy as a whole.

Working people will bear the brunt of any sustained economic downturn. Even during the so-called recovery, wages stagnated and unemployment remained high. This trend has continued in recent months. Average hourly earnings in July rose a mere five cents, equivalent to an annual increase of 1.9 percent. Incomes in June rose 0.2 percent, not even enough to keep up with inflation.

The July jobs figure was in line with a report by outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas Inc. released on Monday. According to Challenger, layoff announcements rose 8 percent in July, to 69,572 jobs, while new hiring announcements fell. Most announcements take place several months before the actions are taken, indicating further weakness in the job market for the foreseeable future.

Recent major layoff announcements include:

* St. Paul Travelers Cos., an insurance company, announced on July 24 plans to cut 3,000 jobs as part of a cost-cutting program initiated when the company merged with Travelers Property Casualty Corp. The company currently employs 30,200 workers, mainly in Connecticut and St. Paul, Minnesota. The nation’s largest insurer, State Farms Insurance Cos., announced plans on July 27 to cut up to 500 jobs at its regional headquarters in Charlottesville, VA.

* Washington Mutual, Inc., the nation’s largest thrift banking and loan company, announced on July 29 that it would eliminate 850 positions by closing 53 banking centers in 14 states. This followed an announcement one week earlier that the company would shut down 100 loan and processing offices and lay off 5,000 workers.

* American Airlines eliminated the jobs of over 3,000 flight attendants in July. The layoffs came as part of an agreement with the unions at the company to cut costs by $1.8 billion. Like all the major US airlines, American is seeking to place the burden of increasing financial strains on the backs of its workers. Six thousand flight attendants have lost their jobs at the company since October 2001.

* MCI, formerly known as WorldCom, announced in late June that it would lay off 2,000 additional workers. MCI has already slashed some 14,000 jobs since the end of last year. The company emerged from bankruptcy protection in April after a multi-billion-dollar accounting scandal that first emerged in the summer of 2002. Many of those who will be hit in the latest round of cuts are call center and telemarketing workers in Colorado, Kansas, South Carolina and Iowa. Many of the laid-off workers were given only a day’s notice.

* Procter & Gamble Co. subsidiary Wella, which makes hair products, announced 1,200 job cuts in late July.

* Sears, Roebuck and Co. announced plans on July 23 to cut 3,300 jobs, or 1.6 percent of its US work force. Like many retailers, Sears has been hit by stagnating sales.

* Delphi Corp. of Troy, MI plans to eliminate 5,500 to 6,000 jobs by Dec. 31.

* Techneglas Inc., a television glass manufacturer, is closing three plants in Ohio and Pennsylvania, resulting in the elimination of 1,100 jobs.

* Bosch Corporation of St. Joseph Michigan announced August 5 that it is shutting down a foundry plant, laying-off over 500 workers.

Link (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/aug2004/jobs-a07.shtml)

[Capitalist Lawyer]

What's interesting is that your article is dated June 15th, and March and June numbers were recently adjusted down 60,000 jobs, and July expected to see about 240,000 jobs created, saw only 32,000. The market responded predictably.

Perhaps the Manpower Inc. poll is not necessarily the leading authority on job creation.

Doesn't take away from the fact that unemployment is contuing to decline.



* Bosch Corporation of St. Joseph Michigan announced August 5 that it is shutting down a foundry plant, laying-off over 500 workers.


While the news article somewhat accurately portrayed what was spoon fed to them from company management, it is hardly close to the truth about what is happening at the St. Joe plant. Sadly, many are going to blame "outsourcing" for the cutbacks, but doing so is so short sighted it's not even funny. It also lacks logic for how can a foreign company that is employing people here be accused of "outsourcing" when eliminating jobs here to possibly move them elsewhere?

I live in the St. Joseph area and I recently wrote an op-ed about it on another board. Here it is down below.


The fact of the matter is that the St. Joe plant has been a problem child for a LONG time now and foreign labor competition was the straw that broke the camel's back.

It's interesting that no mention is made in the articles of the plant only RECENTLY earning it's Ford Q1 status back. For those not in the automotive industry, Q1 status indicates a level of quality from Ford. The St. Joe plant (SJP) had such a crappy reputation for quality that it lost its Q1 status last year. Without Q1 status, no new business FROM that plant is able to be quoted to Ford.

At the same time SJP lost its Q1 status, it also lost its QS9000 certification as well. Again... for those not in the know, QS9000 is the achievement of self imposed quality standards. Essentially, you set up your own rules of how you will do things consistently (but according to the standards that the Big 3 have established) and then actually follow your own rules. Problem is, the plant wasn't following their own rules, so they lost certification.

Now losing certifications is again, only scratching the surface. The reasons behind them are fairly significant. PART of the reasons (one of many) were mis-labeled parts being sent to the customer (for instance a left hand caliper being shipped with a right hand part label.) When the customer gets a part and label that don't match up, they don't just fix it, they send it back as the wrong part and it counts against our parts per million score. One bad part per million gives us a score of 1 ppm. In an age of zero defects expected, improperly labeled parts rack up pretty quickly. The kicker is, it was certain disgruntled union employees doing it on purpose. When smaller cut backs would occur, these disguntled workers would be let go, but then they'd use the union to displace someone with less seniority, so they'd be right back doing the same thing all over again, just in a different location. They were never able to be fired, because smoking gun evidence never was able to be found. But when the same problem FOLLOWS certain people from position to position, it's pretty easy to connect dots.

THAT'S just the recent activity. The fact of the matter is that plant has been a problem child for literally decades. It, and my plant, were all part of the Bendix corporation. Bendix has a history that goes WAY back to pre-WWII days. Fact of the matter is much of the manufacturing equipment at that plant had dated back to WWII as well. When Bendix was bought out by Allied-Signal (now Honeywell) their attitude was that we'd have to establish that we could make money before they'd invest in updating SJP's equipment. Never happened. Never would have happened either. Allied-Signal then sold us off to Bosch. Bosch then pour a relatively obscene amount of money into our plants, SJP included. No more WWII era equipment. Problem was still the workers and management arrangement of work flow.

About a dozen years ago, when I was brand new to the company, I worked for a couple of days up there. One day on a machining line, and the next day on an assembly line. The idea was to give engineering employees some first hand knowledge of factory work. Now, MODERN quality standards dictate cell type work flow. Imagine trucks bringing in raw material in one side of the factory, and the material all moving in one straight line to the other side of the factory where the finished product comes out. THAT'S the ideal. Many plants are able to get themselves there. SJP looked like a war zone. When I worked the machining line for a day, I worked on a 20 yard long broaching machine. Basically, I'd take parts out of a crate on might right side, load then onto the machine, they'd get machined and come out 20 yards away on the other end of the machine and then a conveyor belt would bring them back to me, so I could unload them into a crate on my left. Fork lifts would haul away my finished parts crates, as well as bring me fresh ones to work on. Thing is, under modern factory quality manufacturing techniques... what SHOULD happen is the operation/process that happens right before my operation should be right next to me, and the process following my operation should be right after me in line. However, the reality is that those fork lifts came from God knows where in the plant, and took them to God knows where. I had about an 1/8 of a mile visibility from where I stood, and I couldn't tell where on either end.

When our many cost down efforts had taken place, operations counters count the number of times a part is HANDLED during its manufacture. In other words, each time someone TOUCHES a part, even if that means it gets moved from one holding position to another holding position, it gets counted as "handling."

I'll make up some numbers here, but they'll be fairly accurate. The number of "handlings" that would happen to a particular caliper turned out to be in the neighborhood of 400. Thing is, it worked out that 130 or so of those was simply moving them from one waiting area to another. No value add, just move one mess from one spot to another. An analogy might be picking up laundry from the bathroom, and moving that pile to the hallway. It's one step closer to the washing machine, but that one step does NOTHING to actually get closer to washing the clothes. It's a step that can and should be eliminated.

Now when manufacturing is taking place, not only are such holding areas non-value add, but they increase inventory. In other words, it increases the number of parts that exist DOWNSTREAM of any particular operation. Now let's say that an operation goes bad. A tool goes bad and starts machining things out of print. Let's also say that the first time that feature is measured isn't until 50 operations later, and 20 of them are just holding areas. Those 20 holding areas only serve to increase the number of bad parts that exist prior to them being found and the operation stopped so it can be fixed.

All efforts to change situations like this were met with stiff resistance from the UAW. The only real way to fix that plant would have been to tear it down and start a new building. Many efforts were made of the years to change and update things, but it simply didn't work. It was a rust belt plant in the worst connotation.

Again... I've been with the company for just shy of 13 years, and I was told on day one that SJP is on the chopping blocks because of its poor quality. About five years ago, almost all of our new caliper programs started being arranged to be made in Campinas Brazil. Hardly anything new was being made at SJP. THAT pretty much was the handwriting on the wall. Consultants were brought in early this year and when it was announced that the company was looking at stopping all foundry and machining work there, the only surprise to us was that assembly wasn't included on the list. Maybe we don't have assembly capacity in place in Brazil yet, or maybe assembly is still saveable with all the room that getting rid of casting and machining would free up.

Still, it makes me laugh at the people that want to blame this on outsourcing and NAFTA. They can't be farther from the mark, and the local media shot par for the courst by not getting the story straight.



As I showed, that shutdown is hardly BECAUSE of the state of the economy. Reporting it as so is misleading at best. I wonder how many of the other examples listed fall into the same category.

[Sabocat]

The unemployment rate is dropping, because a lot of the people collecting unemployment benefits have exhausted them. Once off the roles, they are no longer counted.

Why wouldn't the company restructure the management to get the required results? Because they didn't want to. Because fiscally it made more sense to send it offshore and increase profit margins. It's a hollow excuse trying to blame the workers and the union for the failure at the plant.

With regards to the SJP plant, who's to say the same problems won't exist in the new Brazil plant? What then? It would make no sense to set up a new plant in Brazil, where they would have to train new workers, deal with a language barrier that would exist at least at the onset, unless there was considerable cost savings for them. The low cost labor pool would be that incentive. Plants like this have been looking for ways around the UAW for a long time. Now with the blessing of NAFTA, they have it.

As they like to say in these situations, the SJP plant was "set up to fail". Keeping corporate consciouses and bad press at bay.

[redstar2000]

An interesting sidelight on this exchange...

Capitalist Lawyer seems to speak quite knowledgeably of the engineering faults of the old Bosch plant (setting aside his snide remarks about "disgruntled workers"). Was he/is he an engineer by trade?

Yet if his own username is to be believed, he either is or aspires to be a lawyer...that is, a complete social parasite.

Think about that for a second. In late capitalism, it actually makes more sense to train yourself to be a really skillful vampire than it does to do something that is at least potentially socially useful, like engineering.

For ambitious young people today, capitalism has a message: don't do something useful or productive with your life -- become a blood-sucker!

Learn to be a lawyer, stockbroker, banker, securities analyst, derivatives trader, venture capital hustler, government regulator, media manipulator, etc.

That's where the money is!

Now...contemplate the future of such a system.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[apathy maybe]

Wow, good employment figures! But wait, under capitalism there will never be 100% employment. (The reason is that the bosses compete for cheap labour, and the workers compete for work.)

Onwards to socialism (and beyond)!

[Capitalist Lawyer]

The unemployment rate is dropping because a lot of the people collecting unemployment benefits have exhausted them. Once off the roles, they are no longer counted.

That may be PART of it, but is certainly not all of it. Jobs are being added, and people are starting their own businesses.



Why wouldn't the company restructure the management to get the required results?

They did... several times. Bendix was unsuccessful. Allied-Signal was unsuccessful. Bosch was unsuccessful. It had much more to do with than just management decisions.



It's a hollow excuse trying to blame the workers and the union for the failure at the plant.

Not when the sabotoge that I described is taking place.



With regards to the SJP plant, who's to say the same problems won't exist in the new Brazil plant?


No one. But if the company can't get its act straight with a completely different plant, one can make an argument that it should not survive.



It would make no sense to set up a new plant in Brazil, where they would have to train new workers, deal with a language barrier that would exist at least at the onset, unless there was considerable cost savings for them.

You seem to be missing the point that the plant is already started and producing production parts.




Plants like this have been looking for ways around the UAW for a long time. Now with the blessing of NAFTA, they have it.


Read that statement again and see if you can spot your error. It's quite obvious and blatant. NAFTA - BRAZIL?



As they like to say in these situations, the SJP plant was "set up to fail".


So THAT'S why the equipment and physical plant was heavily invested in. Because they WANTED it to fail!


Yet if his own username is to be believed, he either is or aspires to be a lawyer...that is, a complete social parasite.

I'm neither, it's just a screenname. And I agree with you, trial lawyers like John Edwards are parasites.

[Sabocat]

Read that statement again and see if you can spot your error. It's quite obvious and blatant. NAFTA - BRAZIL?

Ooops. Sorry. I meant the FTAA, although a lot of the auto industry jobs moved to Mexico because of NAFTA.


If salary concessions and union busting weren't the impetus of this move, than why didn't they just build a plant for example in New Jersey?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 10 2004, 05:42 AM

Onwards to socialism (and beyond)!
Not that I'm worried about it happening, because the world and most new markets are emerging as capitalist, but with regards to socialism, don't you mean "backwards"?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yep, give yourself a pat on the back, cause unemployment's going down.

What makes you think that serious communists give a fuck? Your news might be pleasing to the reformists, but increased employment does not mean worker's liberation. Take your 'good news' elsewhere.

[Louis Pio]

Those jobs are just a drop in the water. Fact is unemployments is massive in the USA.
The funny thing is that profits are good, but the capitalists don't create more jobs because of that. They just pocket the money. Formany families the situation is looking bad, and the worst thing is that these numbers doesn't even count in the people who have exhausted unemployment benefits.

Now let's look at what the economic magazine of choice on the directionboards have to say about the whole situation.

"Bush's jobs deficit

Aug 6th 2004
From The Economist Global Agenda


According to the latest figures, American companies added far fewer workers to their payrolls last month than economists had forecast. This comes a week after the equally unexpected news that growth slowed significantly in the second quarter. How worried should George Bush be?

AMERICANS have fallen prey to a variety of economic anxieties in the past year—some real, some imagined. First, they fretted that growth was not translating into jobs, then that growth might spill over into inflation, and most recently that growth itself could no longer be taken for granted. The American economy expanded by 4.5% in the first quarter of this year, by a shade over 4% in the final quarter of 2003, and by 7.4% in the quarter before that (all at annualised rates). But figures released late last month showed that growth slowed unexpectedly in the second quarter of this year, to just 3%. And now, a week later, Americans are back to worrying about jobs. According to the latest monthly figures, published on Friday August 6th, American companies added 32,000 workers to their payrolls in July, far short of the 200,000-plus that economists had been expecting.

These figures will add to fears that the employment outlook is darkening. Despite three months of strong job creation between March and May, hiring ebbed in June and the proportion of Americans participating in the labour market remains pretty weak by historical standards. Moreover, if the past few months are a guide, the actual number of jobs created in July may be even lower than the figure released this week: also on Friday, the Labour Department revised its job-growth numbers for May and June down by a combined 61,000.

None of this will please President George Bush as he battles for re-election in November. He will no doubt try to shift attention away from the job numbers' failure to meet expectations, and towards the 1.5m jobs that have been created in 11 straight months of employment growth (as well as the latest unemployment figure: the rate fell in July, from 5.6% to 5.5%). However, as his opponents are so keen to point out, a net 1.1m jobs have been lost since he took office, and there is no chance of reversing that loss before the election. Furthermore, the fall in unemployment might have as much to do with the low participation rate as with job creation.

Another worry for the president is weaker spending. One of the abiding motifs of America’s recovery so far has been the “indefatigable consumer”. But the American consumer is now looking as tired as the cliché. According to figures released on Tuesday, consumer spending fell by 0.7% in June. The Federal Reserve’s recent anecdotal report on the American economy, the so-called “beige book”, paints a greying picture: Chicago is doing well, but New York, Cleveland, Richmond, Kansas City and San Francisco show evidence of a slowdown, albeit modest.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that the gains from America’s productivity-led recovery have been unevenly distributed. Corporate profits are strong, and business investment leapt by almost 9% in the spring. But pay has lagged behind, and the wages of production workers have stagnated. Of course, through its tax cuts, the White House has done its best to provide what employers will not—a substantial boost to take-home pay. But the effects of those tax cuts are beginning to fade, just as prices at American petrol pumps rise.

What consumers do not earn, or receive back from their government, they must borrow. Household debts grew by more than 10% in the first quarter, and now add up to more than 115% of disposable income. HSBC, a bank, says that the recovery is built on “marshlands of debt”. With interest rates now rising, this ready source of spending power may be about to dry up. Indeed, the beige book reports that borrowing by homebuyers declined in San Francisco and New York, two of the hottest property markets in the country.

According to Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Fed, the American economy has trespassed on to a “soft patch”. All recoveries go through them from time to time, he says, and this one should prove short-lived. He may well be right. But if the soft patch turns out to be something a bit marshier, the recovery’s foundations may not be as secure as many had thought."

From The Economist (http://www.economist.com)

[Capitalist Lawyer]

I noticed that you ignored about 90% of my post disgustipated. Are you out of ammunition already?


Your news might be pleasing to the reformists, but increased employment does not mean worker's liberation.

*YAWNS*

There's a job out there for everyone who wants one and if they can't find one, then they are free to start their own business.

[Hot Dog Day #84]

But wait, under capitalism there will never be 100% employment. (The reason is that the bosses compete for cheap labour, and the workers compete for work.)
There can never be 100% employment because some will always not work. Because unfortunately it will always take time when inbetween jobs, and illness will never be instantly curable.
As for your explaination, no you are wrong. Bosses competing for cheap labour is what pushes wage prices up, so in fact it causes employment to rise because of the added incentive to work. And workers competing for work on a macro scale is false, there is always jobs wanted now, its just a case of being willing to move between industries.
It is arguable that in the UK now, employment is as low as possible. Hence in many industries there is a lack of labour, agriculture, services, skilled jobs, all these are in short supply. Why do you think immigration to the UK is encouraged so much.

[New Tolerance]

*YAWNS*

There's a job out there for everyone who wants one and if they can't find one, then they are free to start their own business.

Easier said than done. If you had to start your own business today what would it be?

[Sabocat]

I noticed that you ignored about 90% of my post disgustipated. Are you out of ammunition already?

What else can I say? You are basically acussing the workers of laziness, sabotage, the union to lay blame on the failure of the plant. I suggest that the plant was going to go away anyway to increase profit margin. How many different ways can that point be argued?


There's a job out there for everyone who wants one and if they can't find one, then they are free to start their own business.

Sure. As long as a person doesn't mind being underemployed, working poor at a Walmart or Burger King. As far as starting your own business, I hate to break it to you, but I have my own business (with a partner) and I can assure you that startup costs, insurances, equipment etc, make it all but impossible for someone underemployed, unemployed etc to get enough capital to startup. In my state alone, it costs several thousand dollars just in LLC papers and registration. Naturally, you need to have a lawyer to draw up those papers, and that cost of course is something else altogether. Unless of course you meant that they could start a business mowing lawns or some other low paid, wage slave job. In that case there's all kinds of jobs they could do. Like clean windshields in traffic in the cities, sell newpapers at the train station...etc, etc. Is that the kind of nonsense you meant? Allowing... if they're lucky, a bare sustenance existance. How noble.


Jobs are being added

As far as this nonsense goes, I suggest you look at a U.S. government statistic:

Employment Situation (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm)

If you look carefully, you'll see that the numbers are not changing in any appreciable way. Unless in your world, .1 percent is seen as appreciable.

"The unemployment rate
has shown little movement since December 2003."

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 10 2004, 03:40 PM

Easier said than done. If you had to start your own business today what would it be?
Actuually, no one ever suggested it was easy.

Nothing worrth it ever is.

But it is still an option.

Personally, I would think about doing P.I./Repo Work.

Part of it would be survelliance and busting rich husbands who are cheating on their trophy wives. The wives would love to catch these guys and have fodder for a ot of alimony in divorce court.

The other part would be a repossesion service.

[Louis Pio]

The other part would be a repossesion service.

Well let's hope you try to reposses something from the wrong guy one day then. Would be absolutely adorable, especially since you like guns and power.

But since the american economy looks as it does, repossesion will probably be a growing industry untill people don't even have anything you can reposses.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 04:08 PM

Well let's hope you try to reposses something from the wrong guy one day then. Would be absolutely adorable, especially since you like guns and power.

But since the american economy looks as it does, repossesion will probably be a growing industry untill people don't even have anything you can reposses.
My friend, repos are always good business. Regardless of economics, there is always a plethora of irresponsible people.


Well let's hope you try to reposses something from the wrong guy one day then. Would be absolutely adorable, especially since you like guns and power.

There is no "wrong guy". Repo men are prepared for all situations. Most repo guys pack themselves anyway, and have a licence to do so, and are always prepared for the worst. That is the business. However, the irate and dangerous repo subject is a rare exception, not the rule. However, when a situation occrs, the repossesor can handle the situation.


But since the american economy looks as it does, repossesion will probably be a growing industry untill people don't even have anything you can reposses.

Any observations of the American economy should be made with the understandig that it is cyclical, and any economic position is temporary. We are simply in a trough on the verge of a climb, same as the last 100 years. However, regardless of fluctuations, it has always trended up, and is still easily the world's strongest economy even when it is weak. Any economist or investor will tell you that in the long run, a bet against the US economy is a bad bet, because it has never failed to trend up and strengthen over the aggregate.

[Louis Pio]

Any observations of the American economy should be made with the understandig that it is cyclical, and any economic position is temporary. We are simply in a trough on the verge of a climb, same as the last 100 years. However, regardless of fluctuations, it has always trended up, and is still easily the world's strongest economy even when it is weak. Any economist or investor ill tell you that in the long run, a bet against the US econim is a bad bet, because it has never failed to trend up over the aggregate.

Yes of course economics is cyclical. Do'h...
So let's skip the obvious and go on.
Why do most rightwingpapers and people like capitalist lawyer feel the need to paint the picture that things are not as bad as they seem? Because economics are not just a matter of "economics". it is also a matter of the people it affects and what they will do. Alot of the people who helped make those big profits have gotten the boot. More and more people see through the emptyness of the american dream.
Also it seems the economy is not as strong as it seems, mass unemployment is a big bomb under the economic system. Especially since the american economy is build on the consumer. So the big capitalists are shooting themselves in the foot when they don't hire. The problem you have CI is that you don't even belive economics is cyclical, you think american economy can go on with only minor slumps. Everyone with some understanding of macro economics can tell you otherwise. Considering the world economic and the US jobless recovery, I think everthing will be heating up. You on the otherwise envisions an american thousand years reich.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 05:08 PM

Yes of course economics is cyclical. Do'h...
So let's skip the obvious and go on.
Why do most rightwingpapers and people like capitalist lawyer feel the need to paint the picture that things are not as bad as they seem? Alot of the people who helped make those big profits have gotten the boot. More and more people see through the emptyness of the american dream.
Also it seems the economy is not as strong as it seems, mass unemployment is a big bomb under the economic system. Especially since the american economy is build on the consumer. So the big capitalists are shooting themselves in the foot when they don't hire. The problem you have CI is that you don't even belive economics is cyclical, you think american economy can go on with only minor slumps. Everyone with some understanding of macro economics can tell you otherwise. Considering the world economic and the US jobless recovery, I think everthing will be heating up. You on the otherwise envisions an american thousand years reich.

Yes of course economics is cyclical. Do'h...
So let's skip the obvious and go on.

Fine


Why do most rightwingpapers and people like capitalist lawyer feel the need to paint the picture that things are not as bad as they seem?

I don't think they are doing that as much as just submiting the idea that things are not as bad, or even close to as bad, as many leftist doomsdayers are portraying nowadays.


Because economics are not just a matter of "economics". it is also a matter of the people it affects and what they will do.

That is the case regardless of economic ideology.


Alot of the people who helped make those big profits have gotten the boot.

And they were compensated for their contributions in a mutually agreed arrangement.


More and more people see through the emptyness of the american dream.

Not really, we have as much immigration, progress, and enterprise as ever. Your statement is meaningless and unfounded. As a matter of fact, most new emerging markets are emerging as capitalist, so I would say more and more people are adopting the American model.


Also it seems the economy is not as strong as it seems, mass unemployment is a big bomb under the economic system.

5.5% Unemployment is not "massive", stop spinning, and it is down from last quarter:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/040806/b080660.html

here is a particularly interesting quote from this article:

"Even with the disappointing job growth in July, it still marked the 11th month in a row that the economy added jobs. "

and on top of all of that, productivity is up:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128532,00.html

next


The problem you have CI is that you don't even belive economics is cyclical, you think american economy can go on with only minor slumps.

Silly me, that is only what has happened since America entered the industrial age. How foolish of me to base my assments on facts and actual historical data as opposed to agenda-driven pipe-dreams of a grand American collapse.



So the big capitalists are shooting themselves in the foot when they don't hire.

This is meaningless commentary. Captains of industry hire as they need.


Everyone with some understanding of macro economics can tell you otherwise.

Actualy, I would say with confidence that I have a better understanding of Macro-Econ than most on this board. This claim is also supported by my facts VS. your rhetoric and empty theory. Historical data is on my side, sir, so I ask you, who needs the econ lesson?


Considering the world economic and the US jobless recovery, I think everthing will be heating up. You on the otherwise envisions an american thousand years reich.

You guys just never learn, do you?

P. S.: At Least 5000 years, sir.

[Louis Pio]

And they were compensated for their contributions in a mutually agreed arrangement.

Can't we skip the liberal mumbo jumbo and look at reality? People need jobs to survive, when they get kicked out after helping the company people obviously feel anger. Hell their political stance can even change. People learn from experience


Not really, we have as much immigration, progress, and enterprise as ever. Your statement is meaningless and unfounded. As a matter of fact, most new emerging markets are emerging as capitalist, so I would say more and more people are adopting the American model.

Capitalism is the economic system we have. Not only in america, so actually it is your statement that doesn't make sense.
But let me explain: people who looses everything tend to be less naive about the world. And nothing is pointing in the direction of massive job creation.

""Even with the disappointing job growth in July, it still marked the 11th month in a row that the economy added jobs. "
"

Yes indeed. Or else nobody would try to say that economy was looking good. 5.5% is a hell of alot jobs in a country whose whole economy is based on it's own consumers. The absurd thing is that the production capacity is there, it's just not used.


Silly me, that is only what has happened since America entered the industrial age. How foolish of me to base my assments on facts and actual historical data as opposed to agenda-driven pipe-dreams of a grand American collapse.

Im not saying that tomorrow we will have a new wall street crack. But this could happen at some point. Especially since how the stockmarket operates, at some point only a drop can make the glass run over. The stockmarket is a destabalising factor in the economy. This parasitic part of the financial sector don't care about anything other than quick profit, they give a rats arse on what effect their actions have on society.



This is meaningless commentary. Captains of industry hire as they need.

No not meanningless from a economic point of view. The point is they would rather get people to work faster than to create new jobs. That's shortsighted, but of course since they don't look at what benefits themselves in the long wrong they are oblivious to that.


Actualy, I would say with confidence that I have a better understanding of Macro-Econ than most on this board. This claim is also supported by my facts VS. your rhetoric and empty theory. Historical data is on my side, sir, so I ask you, who needs the econ lesson?

you have yet to prove it sunny boy :D Your view of economics is "what is good for big companies is good for the country", nomatter if they actually creates jobs. You have a blind belief in capitalism as the end of the world. Your mind is static, very static indeed.


You guys just never learn, do you?

Quite a strange point coming from you who refuses to learn. But blindly thinks capitalism will solve everything. You always fail to look at the sociological conseqenses of the policies you advocate. Because of that I see you as a fool, and your empty arrogant rhetoric doesn't change that.


P. S.: At Least 5000 years, sir.

I think I have a more knowlegde on the last 5000 years history than you. Roman empire, feudalism etc.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

I meant the FTAA, although a lot of the auto industry jobs moved to Mexico because of NAFTA.

And yet the standard of living increased since NAFTA went into effect.

hmmmmmmmmm...


If salary concessions and union busting weren't the impetus of this move, than why didn't they just build a plant for example in Illinois?

Do you REALLY think that wages and unions are the only high costs to building factories? If salary concession were the issue, they would have responded when the union asked what number would keep the plant open.

It was a cost of continued poor quality issue. Hopefully, assembly will be able to stay.


Those jobs are just a drop in the water. Fact is unemployments is massive in the USA.

Massive??? You're fucking stoned.

Canada's unemployment rate: 7.2 percent
Brazil: 11.7 percent
US: 5.5 percent
Eurozone unemployment (as of May): about 9 percent.



I meant the FTAA, although a lot of the auto industry jobs moved to Mexico because of NAFTA.

Oh... and you got PART of the answer correct.

Not only does NAFTA not apply to SOUTH AMERICAN countries... it also has no effect on GERMAN companies relocating plants there.

[Louis Pio]

"Massive??? You're fucking stoned.

Canada's unemployment rate: 7.2 percent
Brazil: 11.7 percent
US: 5.5 percent
Eurozone unemployment (as of May): about 9 percent"

Just because the rest of the world is fucked up doesn't make it better :D
Btw you shouldn't take the official numbers as the real ones. Unemployment figures normally leave out the people not reciving benefits anymore. This is the case in Denmark for example. This doesn't change the fact that 5,5% unemployment is absurd in a country claiming to recover. Jobs are only being created on a miniscule level, not in a scale to ease the pain of all the unemployed.
Unemployment is good for capitalist profit (since people will accept less pay and worse conditions from fear of loosing jobs) but it is bad for the economy as a whole. Especially in the US were economy is build on your own consumers.
This is one of the several problems in capitalist economics.

Now if you are lucky these figures will get Kerry voted in. Being a democrat he will probably be more able to cover up and try to patch up the problems. That could give you some more time.

[apathy maybe]

Even ignoring the people that don't want to work, there will never be 100% employment in a capitalist society.

[Sabocat]

And yet the standard of living increased since NAFTA went into effect.

For whom? Not the guy that lost his job when the plant moved across the border.
It has recently been shown that when laid off workers are able to get another job, it is usually at almost 20% less than they were previously making. I find it hard to believe that their standard of living could go up with 20% less salary.



Do you REALLY think that wages and unions are the only high costs to building factories? If salary concession were the issue, they would have responded when the union asked what number would keep the plant open.

It was a cost of continued poor quality issue. Hopefully, assembly will be able to stay.

Building materials, land leases, electricity, machinery all can be depreciated and written off on taxes, continuing U.S. scale salaries and the threat of union action cannot be. It is purely profit margin driven, I assure you.

So again......why didn't they build another factory in the U.S. then, rather than Brazil?


Oh... and you got PART of the answer correct.

Not only does NAFTA not apply to SOUTH AMERICAN countries

Exactly why I corrected my statement that it was the FTAA that applied to SA.


... it also has no effect on GERMAN companies relocating plants there.

No shit. However it doesn't alter the fact that when a German parent company pulls an operation out of the U.S. it is for similar cost reduction reasons, and the workforce is the direct sufferer of those moves.

The fact remains. The U.S. economy is stagnant. There has been no appreciable gains in employment since December '03. So your original post of the "employment outlook good", is false, regardless of this Bendix plant tangent you've decided to take off on.

[Capitalist Imperial]

"The fact remains. The U.S. economy is stagnant. There has been no appreciable gains in employment since December '03. So your original post of the "employment outlook good", is false, regardless of this Bendix plant tangent you've decided to take off on. "

11 straight months of gains, lowest unemployment rate since Oct 2001, is not apppreciable? Maybe not relative to Dec. '03, but relative to the last 2-3 years, the recovery is a reality.

[Louis Pio]

the recovery is a reality.

A jobless recovery is quite unstable. Especially with all the other shit going on, war etc.
Let's take up this discussion in a year, then we can see what has happened. Right now it's mostly predictions.

[Sabocat]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 11 2004, 09:38 AM
"The fact remains. The U.S. economy is stagnant. There has been no appreciable gains in employment since December '03. So your original post of the "employment outlook good", is false, regardless of this Bendix plant tangent you've decided to take off on. "

11 straight months of gains, lowest unemployment rate since Oct 2001, is not apppreciable? Maybe not relative to Dec. '03, but relative to the last 2-3 years, the recovery is a reality.

In this table displaying the years and months in question , it shows only a .6% decrease in the 11 months you mentioned. I would hardly call that a recovery.

The statement that unemployment is lowest since Oct, 2001 is also statistically a lie. Lowest since November, but again I reiterate, .1% is hardly worth celebrating as a recovery.

BLS Table (http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?series_id=LNS14000000&data_tool=%22EaG%22)

What these tables don't show, conveniently, is that if the prison population of around 2 million were figured into this equation, the rate would be much higher. It also doesn't take into account those that have given up looking for a job.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:43 PM

A jobless recovery is quite unstable. Especially with all the other shit going on, war etc.
Let's take up this discussion in a year, then we can see what has happened. Right now it's mostly predictions.
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm confident that in about a year we will be within full and observable recovery

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 05:09 PM

In this table displaying the years and months in question , it shows only a .6% decrease in the 11 months you mentioned. I would hardly call that a recovery.

The statement that unemployment is lowest since Oct, 2001 is also statistically a lie. Lowest since November, but again I reiterate, .1% is hardly worth celebrating as a recovery.

BLS Table (http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?series_id=LNS14000000&data_tool=%22EaG%22)

What these tables don't show, conveniently, is that if the prison population of around 2 million were figured into this equation, the rate would be much higher. It also doesn't take into account those that have given up looking for a job.
Oh come on, Disgutipated, are you really going to claim that the prson population should be counted???

[Capitalist Lawyer]

This doesn't change the fact that 5,5% unemployment is absurd in a country claiming to recover. Jobs are only being created on a miniscule level, not in a scale to ease the pain of all the unemployed.

Double digit unemployment in the 70's was not a rare occurance. Same with double digit inflation and interest rates. My first savings account (passbook, savings account) paid me 7%... fixed.

Yes... claiming that 5.5% is relatively low is in fact a true statement. Is it HIGH... yes. For an economy on the mend, it is just fine. Gotta remember that the natural rate of unemployment is probably in the mid 4's.



Unemployment is good for capitalist profit (since people will accept less pay and worse conditions from fear of loosing jobs) but it is bad for the economy as a whole.


Yeah... paying all of those PhD's janitor wages JUST to get them off the unemployment stats is GREAT for an economy.

NOT!




For whom?


The economy as a whole.



Not the guy that lost his job when the plant moved across the border.

Should national policy be dictated by INDIVIDUAL episodes? I certainly hope not. For the aggregate standard of living to increase... for every guy that lost his job, there's got to be MORE people who gained employment and wages.



It is purely profit margin driven, I assure you.

OMG! You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I'm here WORKING in the company. I SEE what is going on at that plant. The profit margins on the products that they build are miniscule and will remain miniscule. We make the supermarket milk, while other divisions of our company make the end cap products.

It would help the debate if you stopped talking out of your ass and started to open your mind a bit.



Why didn't they build another factory in the U.S. then, rather than Brazil!?


Because COSTS are too high in the US. Regulation costs, labor costs, facilities costs.



Exactly why I corrected my statement that it was the FTAA that applied to SA.


FTAA applies to German companies in SA?!? Did the "Americas" recently expand to include the EU??? You have de-railed comrade.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

I hate to break it to you, but startup costs, insurances, equipment etc, make it all but impossible for someone underemployed, unemployed etc to get enough capital to startup.

HELLO... INVESTOR CLASS!!!

Oh... and tell that to Wally.

Now, you may like to think that the investor class doesn't EARN anything, but you are far from correct. Without the investor class investing in PROFITABLE ventures, the loss side of "profit and loss" system doesn't take place. Without the loss side, the dead weight organizations continue to be dead weight and therefore a drain on the economy as advancement can't take place.

Without the A&P's of the world being passed up by the Kroger's and such, investors would continue to put money into A&P which is not advancing. Instead, they see a better business model in Kroger's and switch their investments to the better opportunities. Without that KNOWLEDGE and EFFORT, the economy wouldn't advance. Therefore, the investor class adds a great deal to our economy.



Unless of course you meant that they could start a business mowing lawns or some other low paid, wage slave job.

Tell that to my 14 year old who is EARNING his way to Boy Scout Jamboree on his own by mowing lawns. His couple hours a day has put him past earnings of most 16 year old burger flippers this summer.

[Louis Pio]

Yeah... paying all of those PhD's janitor wages JUST to get them off the unemployment stats is GREAT for an economy.

Having a big group eager to take any job nomatter how shitty it is or low the wage is, is good for profit. Basic capitalist economics. Now we are talking about what is good for the capitalists, not what is good for the state or the "people" if you like. Those are different things.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 11 2004, 10:33 PM



Tell that to my 14 year old who is EARNING his way to Boy Scout Jamboree on his own by mowing lawns. His couple hours a day has put him past earnings of most 16 year old burger flippers this summer.
Don't bother, CL, these commie pukes never let the facts get in the way of their theorhetical diatribes.

[Louis Pio]

Don't bother, CL, these commie pukes never let the facts get in the way of their theorhetical diatribes.

No we are just looking at the big picture instead of always using nice fairytales about people we know to back up our point.
That is a distinct feature of the internet capitalist pukes, to stay in your pathetic vocabolary.

[Guerrilla22]

Manpower Employment Outlook Survey Reveals Continued Optimism in U.S. Hiring Through 3rd Quarter, Marking Vast Improvement in Employer Confidence From A Year Ago

It wouldn't take much to improve from last year, this is garbage. More jobs have been lost under the Bush administration than any other President in US history, the number of jobs lost still highly out weighs those gained. A few jobs, mostly in the service industry open up and idiots like Capitalist Lawyer try and tell us that the recession is over. Here's another take on the job situation:


Job Layoffs Under Bush
Among Highest In US History
By Madeleine Baran
New Standard News.net
8-11-4

During the first three years of the Bush administration, the layoff rate reached 8.7 percent for workers over 20 years old, one of the highest rates on record, according to the New York Times.

The survey also recorded the highest layoff rate ever for long-tenured workers -- those who held their job for more than three years. Employers laid off 5.3 million, or 6.3 percent of all long-tenured workers between 2001 and 2003.

In the past, layoffs peaked during recessions and declined during economic booms; but a new survey by the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that the layoff rate is increasing regardless of the state of the rest of the US economy.

"No one should be surprised by the increasing frequency of layoffs," James Glassman, senior US economist for the investment firm J. P. Morgan Chase, told the New York Times. "It is the echo of globalization. Companies are shifting production around more frequently to take advantage of low-cost centers."


http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action...&printmode=true





http://www.rense.com/general56/ldldy.htm

[Sabocat]

Because COSTS are too high in the US. Regulation costs, labor costs, facilities costs.

Hence, why I said it was profit margin driven. Halfwit.



HELLO... INVESTOR CLASS!!!

Oh yeah, there are thousands of white knights, angel investors, and venture capitalists looking to invest in every person's small business startup. Have you been off the planet for the last 10 years? I can assure you, the amount of venture capital has all but dried up for the small business startups.


Without the A&P's of the world being passed up by the Kroger's and such, investors would continue to put money into A&P which is not advancing. Instead, they see a better business model in Kroger's and switch their investments to the better opportunities. Without that KNOWLEDGE and EFFORT, the economy wouldn't advance. Therefore, the investor class adds a great deal to our economy.

Your grasp of investment capital is as weak as your argument. Do you know why investors invest in companies like Kroger with a "better business model"? Now pay attention, I know this is difficult for you, you see the investors actually get a return on their investment. How do they get that return? Because the company that they're investing in, has shown a good profit margin and return in their plan. Meaning that not only does the company as a whole, make a profit, but the investors actually make MORE money than they invested. Also, very few investors will invest in a company if no risk has been assumed by the guy starting the business. If you have no capital to start a business, rarely will they front ALL the money to get you going. You see, I would know that, because unlike you, I've actually worked on a couple of business plans for venture capital.


Tell that to my 14 year old who is EARNING his way to Boy Scout Jamboree on his own by mowing lawns. His couple hours a day has put him past earnings of most 16 year old burger flippers this summer.

I like how in that statement you've somehow managed to show that somehow, mowing lawns is far more noble than some poor kid working at a fast food place as a "burger flipper". It's a meaningless example, because when I asked you sardonically what the unemployed should do with regards to starting a business, you somehow equate a worker that may have worked in manufacturing, making a sustenance salary to possibly feed a family and deal with all their bills etc, who's lost that job, you use as an example, your kid mowing lawns for a the Boy Scout Jamboree.

Does he drive himself to that job everyday? Does he pay his own medical, rent, car payment, food, clothes etc? Why are you making pointless statements? Who gives a fuck what your larvae does to earn pocket change. Are you insinuating that all the people out of work should start mowing lawns?


Should national policy be dictated by INDIVIDUAL episodes? I certainly hope not. For the aggregate standard of living to increase... for every guy that lost his job, there's got to be MORE people who gained employment and wages.


:lol: If "for every guy that lost his job, there's got to be MORE people who gained employment", wouldn't that mean that there would be full employment?


OMG! You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I'm here WORKING in the company. I SEE what is going on at that plant. The profit margins on the products that they build are miniscule and will remain miniscule. We make the supermarket milk, while other divisions of our company make the end cap products.

It would help the debate if you stopped talking out of your ass and started to open your mind a bit.

Do you sit on the Board of Directors? Do you get their Annual Report and quarterly earnings statements? Oh, my mistake, I didn't realize that you worked for the only company in the world that wasn't concerned with profit margin. They exist for altruistic reasons only. The company is not concerned with showing a profit for their investors, just scraping by, existing to give you a job. You can't really be this stupid can you?



FTAA applies to German companies in SA?!? Did the "Americas" recently expand to include the EU??? You have de-railed comrade.

Show me anywhere in my posts where I said that German companies benefitted from the FTAA.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:12 AM

No we are just looking at the big picture instead of always using nice fairytales about people we know to back up our point.
That is a distinct feature of the internet capitalist pukes, to stay in your pathetic vocabolary.

pathetic vocabolary

You're just mad because it is obviously better than yours.

[Louis Pio]

:rolleyes:
I don't feel the need to call people pukes all the time, that is obviously your way of trying to make contact with people.
Now Disgustaped made a good point about the wortlessness of your little fairytale, answer that instead of behaving like spoiled brat.

Ohh and escuse me for not having english as my first language, I know you are very xenophobic in that way. How many languages do you speak and write yourself? Without ever making any faults?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:39 PM
:rolleyes:
I don't feel the need to call people pukes all the time, that is obviously your way of trying to make contact with people.
Now Disgustaped made a good point about the wortlessness of your little fairytale, answer that instead of behaving like spoiled brat.

Ohh and escuse me for not having english as my first language, I know you are very xenophobic in that way. How many languages do you speak and write yourself? Without ever making any faults?

I don't feel the need to call people pukes all the time, that is obviously your way of trying to make contact with people.

Why must you shake me up about my tag line? We all jab each other here now and then.



Now Disgustaped made a good point about the wortlessness of your little fairytale, answer that instead of behaving like spoiled brat.

It was not my story, it was CL's though I liked it. I'll leave it to CL to respond, and then perhaps I'll supplement that.


Ohh and escuse me for not having english as my first language, I know you are very xenophobic in that way.

You're excused. I'm not xenophbic, I was actually just responding to your insulting of me. I would not have said anything if you didn't draw first blood. You don't seem to have a very good memory.


How many languages do you speak and write yourself? Without ever making any faults?

None, no one ever goes without making any faults, but I am pretty well versed with English also fair in remedial Spanish, though I have a lot to learn and make a lot of mistakes, but, then again, I wouldn't dare to call a native spanish speaker's vocabulary pathetic.

[Louis Pio]

You're excused. I'm not xenophbic, I was actually just responding to your insulting of me. I would not have said anything if you didn't draw first blood. You don't seem to have a very good memory.

Funny coming from someone using most of his time insulting others


None, no one ever goes without making any faults, but I am pretty well versed with English also fair in remedial Spanish, though I have a lot to learn and make a lot of mistakes, but, then again, I wouldn't dare to call a native spanish speaker's vocabulary pathetic.

Well maybe I used the word wrong. My point is that it is patetic of you always refering to others as pukes. That's what one could expect from someone as Gummo/Lucid not from a guy trying to give the impression that he wants serious debate. But then again it probably makes you feel good for some strange reason

[Capitalist Lawyer]

More jobs have been lost under the Bush administration than any other President in US history


More misleading stats. The fact that MORE jobs have been lost or gained under modern administrations only points to the fact that we have more workers NOW than any other time in history. The population is larger. Use percentages to give some relative measurements. Absolute numbers when numbers are constantly growing mean nothing.



During the first three years of the Bush administration, the layoff rate reached 8.7 percent for workers over 20 years old, one of the highest rates on record, according to the New York Times.

Are you blaming a downturn in the economy that started BEFORE Bush was even nominated, 9/11 and the War on Terrorism, and the effects that they've had on the economy on BUSH???



Hence, why I said it was profit margin driven.


And without profits... we have LOSSES. And when losses are sustained, we have even MORE unemployement.




Also, very few investors will invest in a company if no risk has been assumed by the guy starting the business. If you have no capital to start a business, rarely will they front ALL the money to get you going.

Tell that to Steve Jobs.

I didn't bother with your explanation of investment capital, because it adds no new information to what I said. Investors expect to GAIN money. Yeah... AND?!?



you somehow equate a worker that may have worked in manufacturing, making a sustenance salary to possibly feed a family and deal with all their bills etc, who's lost that job, you use as an example, your kid mowing lawns.

Actually... YOU'RE the only one who's equating anything here. I merely gave an example to contradict your example. You should try looking around and seeing how much people are making GOOD money off of mowing lawns. It's an incredibly inexpensive business to start, and it shreds your idea that people can't start their own businesses.



Now we are talking about what is good for the capitalists, not what is good for the state or the "people" if you like.


So was I. It is NOT good for the economy in general (therefore the people in general) for PhD's to take jobs cleaning floors JUST to have lower unemployment.



Now, does your son drive himself to that job everyday?


Since all of his lawns are in the neighborhood. Yes.



Does he pay his own medical, rent, car payment, food, clothes etc? Why are you making pointless statements?

No. Why are you bringing up irrelevant questions. The point is he's making great money for a 14 year old in less than 8 hours per week. Someone with a relatively large vehicle, industrial mower, and 40-50 hrs of work time can make a quite good living off of cutting grass. Pity your imagination won't let you see that simple fact. I tried to illuminate for you, but you continue to keep your eyes and mind closed.




Do you sit on the Board of Directors? Do you get their Annual Report and quarterly earnings statements?

Do you? How are YOU able to make better judgements about things you have no first hand knowledge of, vs someone who does?

Oh... and yes I do get the annual and quarterly earnings statements. I also see them broken down by plant and product. Additionally I see the quality rating scores for each product and plant.




Oh, my mistake, I didn't realize that you worked for the only company in the world that wasn't concerned with profit margin.


Not that Bosch is not concerned with profit margin, again... without profits there's no way to sustain the company. But you might try educating yourself to what kind of company Bosch is. You'd probably be as surprised as I was. All I knew before they bought out our company was that they made great auto parts. Let me know when you get to the part that all of their "stock" is held by a charitable trust.




Show me anywhere in my posts where I said that German companies benefited from the FTAA.

Sure... right here:


I meant the FTAA, although a lot of the auto industry jobs moved to Mexico because of NAFTA.

[Sabocat]

And without profits... we have LOSSES.

So in fact you are recanting and agreeing with me that companies move out of the states for profitability. Thanks. Now that that's clear. Your the one that made the outrageous statement that companies do not relocate out of the U.S. to increase profit margin. That is was strictly a quality issue, which of course is bullshit.



And when losses are sustained, we have even MORE unemployement.

So let me get this straight. A company moves out of the country to fatten it's profit margin, resulting in the loss of jobs domestically, and yet, you're saying if they don't leave the country, there will be even more layoffs? :lol: It's sort of like that general in Vietnam that said they had to kill all the Vietnamese to save them.



Tell that to Steve Jobs.

I didn't bother with your explanation of investment capital, because it adds no new information to what I said. Investors expect to GAIN money. Yeah... AND?!?

Like I said. The venture capital market now, is radically different than it was when Steve Jobs started Apple computer. I'm also sure that he had some investment in the startup. You didn't bother with the rest, because your knowledge of how the real world of venture capital works, is beyond you. You're the one that inferred in your ultimate wisdom that the unemployed can just go out and start a business. Like there's venture capitalists just lining up to give people money to start businesses like Santa Claus. I merely have shown that the reality of that, showing prohibitive start up costs, insurances, infrastructure made it all but impossible for someone with limited capital to accomplish your pie in the sky illusion of neverending income possibilities for the unemployed. You threw out the nonsense of venture capital. The reality and your perception of it are are miles apart. You are merely talking out your ass.


Someone with a relatively large vehicle, industrial mower, and 40-50 hrs of work time can make a quite good living off of cutting grass. Pity your imagination won't let you see that simple fact. I tried to illuminate for you, but you continue to keep your eyes and mind closed.

And I'm trying to tell you that the likelyhood of someone unemployed that came from the manufacturing sector with relatively high salary like a UAW worker (which you brought up) would be very hard pressed to make a survivable wage mowing lawns. Not even taking to account those people that live in the cities, without transportation, and or the abillity to purchase thousands of dollars of equipment, pay the rent/mortgage, insurances and eat too.


Oh... and yes I do get the annual and quarterly earnings statements. I also see them broken down by plant and product. Additionally I see the quality rating scores for each product and plant.

Yes....but do you actually understand them? Apparently the company could save some paper expense.


But you might try educating yourself to what kind of company Bosch is. You'd probably be as surprised as I was.

Wrong again. I actually do business with one of Bosch's devisions, unrelated to the auto industry.


Sure... right here:

Since we were speaking of the UAW and the American Auto Industry, I would have thought the inferrence was that I was talking about the U.S. auto industry, who of course have major operations in both Mexico and Canada. Both countries are in North America by the way. Those same companies would benefit from the FTAA agreement in SA. Again, I never mentioned German car companies. Nice try.

Now run along....the grown-ups are trying to talk.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:59 PM

Funny coming from someone using most of his time insulting others



Well maybe I used the word wrong. My point is that it is patetic of you always refering to others as pukes. That's what one could expect from someone as Gummo/Lucid not from a guy trying to give the impression that he wants serious debate. But then again it probably makes you feel good for some strange reason
Oh, come on, Teis, you have to take it in context.

Everyone here jabs.

If all you do is jab, it is trolling.

If you throw in the occasional jab as part of a spirited debate, but are mostly sticking to the issue and using logic and analysis that is just "debatesmanship".


Funny coming from someone using most of his time insulting others

You know that this is not true. Most of the time I at least try to address the issue, then I may throw a jab in, just like almost everyone here does.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

So in fact you are agreeing with me that companies move out of the states for profitability. Thanks.


The quality issue is what CAUSED the high continued costs at SJP. You can continue to ignore that all you want, but willful ignorance doesn't add to your argument.



So let me get this straight. A company moves out of the country to fatten it's profit margin, resulting in the loss of jobs domestically, and yet, you're saying if they don't leave the country, there will be even more layoffs?

Yup. If the plant continues to lose money and gives the rest of the company a bad name with its customers through poor quality, then the entire company may fold. THAT results in more job losses. 101 level here.



It's sort of like that general/murderer in Vietnam that said they had to kill all the Vietnamese to save them.

Actually, it's not.



You are merely talking out your ass.


You're merely talking to the mirror. Everytime you type about economics your level of ignorance is MORE exposed. Your attempt to paint the investor/capitalist class as leeches who add nothing to the economy is a perfect example of that.



And I'm trying to tell you that the likelyhood of someone unemployed that came from the manufacturing sector with relatively high salary like a UAW worker (which you brought up) would be very hard pressed to make a survivable wage mowing lawns.


I guess they can choose to exhaust their unemployment benefits and then go broke.



Yes....but do you actually understand them?


Yes.



Again, I never mentioned German car companies.

But you did when you blamed NAFTA then FTAA for the closing of the SJP with production moving to Brazil. If you can't follow your own chain of thought, perhaps it's time to get some sleep.

[Capitalist Lawyer]

Out of ammunition already disgustipated?