Ten Things We Didn't Learn From 9/11 [Archive]

Fires of History

3rd May 2002, 14:36

Ten Things We Didn't Learn From 9/11

1. To demand that government officials be held accountable for their incompetence. Is there any doubt, given the revelations concerning what the government knew about the 20th hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui, in August, that the heads of the FBI, CIA and Justice Department should have resigned in disgrace for their failure to properly investigate Moussaoui and thus prevent the 9/11 tragedy? Instead, most Americans seem happy to give these same officials even more power.

2. To not blindly trust the government, but demand information about exactly what its plans and policies are. We trusted the government to protect us against terrorist acts, and it abysmally failed. So why do people then trust it with vague, dangerous plans for military tribunals, without knowing the details? While there was no broad public outcry about the tribunals, at least there was a pundit outcry, and the detailed regulations implementing the tribunals seem far better than the procedures the initial presidential order would have allowed.

3. To spend what's necessary to protect ourselves. As the continually-being-scaled-back plans for new airport security show, the almighty dollar still seems more important than preventing planes from being blown out of the sky.

4. To be more generous towards our fellow Americans with the vast richness of this nation. While contributions to 9/11 charities topped $1.5 billion, it was a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul: contributions to non-9/11 charities were drastically down immediately, and have stayed so, creating the inability to help many in need.

5. To go beyond clichés in answering the oft-asked question of why many people in the world hate us. We can't even entertain the possibility that some of the grievances of those who express hatred of us have some validity. Instead, most Americans seem content to attribute that hatred to irrationality and/or jealousy. I imagine that many in this country actually agree with Ann Coulter's statement that we should "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

6. To stop supporting dictatorships when it suits our geopolitical purposes. Our newest alliances are with brutal dictators in the "stans" which abut northern Afghanistan. Are the people in those nations going to be the next ones to develop an intense hatred of us?

7. To realize we're only as safe as the worst neighborhood on earth, and we need to share the earth's resources more equitably with the 95% of humans who aren't American. It's often said that we are 5% of the world's population, but use 25% of the world's resources. I don't now if that's accurate or not, but clearly we use far more than our proportionate share. If everyone on earth had an American lifestyle, many of the earth's non-renewable resources would vanish in decades. We can never be safe denying a large segment of humanity the use of the planet's riches.

8. To demand that the mass media provide us with all information, the bad as well as the good, about the conduct of our wars. There has been no public insistence to be told about civilian casualties, so the media have happily acquiesced to the government's wishes and barely reports at all on the thousands of civilians who have been killed by U.S. bombing in Afghanistan. Not knowing what is being done in our name will, if not in this instance, in others, most certainly come back to haunt us.

9. To truly understand the horror of modern warfare when it's directed AGAINST us, not BY us, and therefore be loathe to inflict it upon innocent citizens of other nations. Many Americans, based on comments to this site, talk show audience interviews and internet bulletin boards, seem to have had the opposite response: our civilians died, so let's kill their civilians -- which is precisely the terrorist mentality, that it's okay to kill civilians for military/political ends.

10. To finally understand what so much of the foregoing boils down to, the necessity of following the Golden Rule: Do Unto Others As We Would Have Them Do Unto Us.

Courtesy of The Rational Radical (http://www.therationalradical.com/). Good stuff :)

Although this specific thread came from here (http://www.therationalradical.com/dsep02/01/ten-things.htm).

BOZG

3rd May 2002, 15:34

That's a good article. It's a shame that so many people do not think for themselves anymore and would rather blindly follow everything.

FtWfTn

3rd May 2002, 16:25

yea. . .people are "sheep" i'd have to say Uncle sam is the herder

sypher

4th May 2002, 00:29

sadly, the american people will be just as blind if not more so if another attack were to occur.

Dhul Fiqar

4th May 2002, 08:41

I'd just like to add a point I've made before, the fact that people like Rudy Guiliani (and most of the U$ government it seems) don't know the distinction between a 'reason' and an 'excuse'. Rudy made this especially apparent when he refused a Saudi Arabian check because the Prince had said there were reasons for the attacks, apart from the state doctrine of "They're evil, they hate our 'freedom' and want to destroy democracy". Which is so stupid I don't even want to get started on it.

The way I see it, it's vital to look at the reasons that 9/11 happened so that Amerikkka can address those issues and prevent a recurrance of such events. That does NOT mean making excuses for what happened, because an excuse serves to justify the recurrance of the same event, the exact opposite of what a 'reason' potentially does.

--- G. Raven

Angie

4th May 2002, 12:34

It's unfortunate that so many people the world over will give over their minds and faith to their governments in times of crisis, but that's what always happens.

Living in the West as most of us here are, we find that we are so attached to, and dependent upon, our governments, like suckling children towards their mothers. When crises occur, most of us fall apart, unable to cope, fearful of the knowledge that when push comes to shove, we cannot fend for ourselves. And it is true - the bulk of us cannot.

It's only natural to expect that a nation turn to it's government when something bad happens, but it took even myself by surprise when I saw just to what extent that the American people metaphorically (and to an extent, physically) huddled around the White House, chanting their "God Bless America!" and "USA! USA! USA!" mantras.

To be perfectly honest, it made me cringe. Almost an entire nation of people with such blind devotion towards their military and their government - the very people that have the capacity to utterly destroy them on a mere whim, much as they have done to far too many nations the world over.

The jury is still out, in my mind, as to whether it's a flaw of the people themselves, or of it's inherent cultural basis. Perhaps a little of them both. But if nothing else is certain, then I am absolute in regards to the certainty that it IS a flaw.

Blind patriotism in time of disaster is the sign of a weak nation, not a strong one. Americans are, to this day, still blindly chanting their mantras, insulting other cultures for their "Anti-Americanism", calling their own internal questioners and dissidents "traitors" and "terrorists", whilst calling themselves "strong", "loyal", "true". Loyal, yes. Strong, true? No. America is not the land of the free and the home of the brave. The bulk of it's people are sheep, they certainly are not brave. And it looks like they won't be free for much longer, either.

America is losing the strength of it's international credibility, as the rest of us are waking up to the flaws of the so-called superpower. Doing business with America is now considered a liability. That is just scratching the iceburg of the onslaught of repercussions: America has lost the bulk of it's respect in the eyes of the planet, the planet is slowly but gradually turning it's back, and the bulk of it's nation will not even notice until the nation is so far gone that regaining it's "superpower" is an impossible dream.

If that is not a weak nation, then I don't know what is.

Lefty

5th May 2002, 02:11

high quality article. But i am glad that we have woken up, and i hope that combined we can make a difference. Spread the word!

Dhul Fiqar

5th May 2002, 15:34

Changing such a widespread myth as the "Evil was all that caused 9/11" legend is going to take a looonnnggg time. Mostly, because people want to believe it, they don't want to see the big thingy in their eye but they'll see the tiny little thingie in their neighbours eye (OK, so I suck at quoting the bible ;) )

Anyway, it's plain dangerous to get into an argument about Islamic extremism in the U$ these days, so methinks I'll either stay out of that country or shut up about it while I'm in public around there ;)

--- G. Raven

Hattori Hanzo

5th May 2002, 19:06

the attacks only made Americans more distrusting of the rest of the world

James

5th May 2002, 20:09

They are hardly going to admit that it was pritty much their own actions that resulted in 11/9. Are they.

James

5th May 2002, 20:46

that site is really cool, contains loads of intresting information...

"since the U.S. suffered, at latest estimate, 3,300 killed on September 11, and we have at least 11 times the population of Afghanistan, 300 civilian deaths in Afghanistan would be proportionally equivalent to the U.S. death toll. So even if Professor Herold's figures are off -- indeed, even if they are off by as much as 10 times -- the impoverished, war-ravaged Afghan population has already suffered at least a WTC-level of mass murder from U.S. bombing. Of course, to the extent the study is accurate, the U.S. has inflicted the equivalent of up to 10 WTC death tolls on the people of Afghanistan."

SU37

5th May 2002, 22:53

Im from America and let me tell you,there is loads of blind patriotism and they don't even think for them selfs.All they do is drive around in there over priced SUV's and wave american flags and talk about how great bush is.
I been called a traitor cause I said"I hate bush" and terrorist lover.Whats up with those freaking flags on cars....ya 9-11 was bad..but get over it.its like this "If i put a flag on my car Im a little bush loving blind patriot".Where I live people are all blind little bush lovers.You can't even hate bush anymore.Im fed up with all of it. Canada here I come!

(Edited by SU37 at 6:57 pm on May 5, 2002)

concerned

9th May 2002, 07:24

Fires of History:
you are really pathetic. I can't belive you are an american and have an icon of a burning american flag. What the hell is the purpose of this topic? Do you really care about this country?

Fuck you. Why would you pretend to care about America, ohh the lessons we most learn from 9-11 and at the same time burn an american flag.

You are really a mother fucker. All your stupid bullshit conspiracy theories, which make no sense at all. I wish you the very worst, you stupid asshole.

Dhul Fiqar

9th May 2002, 07:46

Well, time to call Malte about this fine specimen of stupidity, who wants to do the honors? ;)

--- G. Raven

CheGuevara

9th May 2002, 08:35

I think it's safe to say that Fires of History cares about the people of the country, and the people of the world. I don't think he sees the American people when he sees the American flag, but rather the capitalist American government. But it's probably best that he speak for himself.

queen of diamonds

9th May 2002, 11:15

Quote: from concerned on 11:24 pm on June 19, 2002
Fires of History:
you are really pathetic. I can't belive you are an american and have an icon of a burning american flag. What the hell is the purpose of this topic? Do you really care about this country?

Fuck you. Why would you pretend to care about America, ohh the lessons we most learn from 9-11 and at the same time burn an american flag.

You are really a mother fucker. All your stupid bullshit conspiracy theories, which make no sense at all. I wish you the very worst, you stupid asshole.

'cause, you know, the fact that everyone else around the world is jealous of you is ever so muc more rational and well thought out, right?

ever seen "The American President"? if not, i think this quote may answer your question about how FoH can 'pretend' to care about america & burn an american flag:

"If you want to talk about being free, the symbol of your country cannot be just a flag, but also one of its citizens burning that flag in protest"
And I, for one, think we've got enough to protest here

as for the purpose of this topic - i think it was to bring important issues to the attention of those who refuse to realise they exist....

queen of diamonds

9th May 2002, 11:20

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 12:41 am on June 15, 2002
I'd just like to add a point I've made before, the fact that people like Rudy Guiliani (and most of the U$ government it seems) don't know the distinction between a 'reason' and an 'excuse'. Rudy made this especially apparent when he refused a Saudi Arabian check because the Prince had said there were reasons for the attacks, apart from the state doctrine of "They're evil, they hate our 'freedom' and want to destroy democracy". Which is so stupid I don't even want to get started on it.

The way I see it, it's vital to look at the reasons that 9/11 happened so that Amerikkka can address those issues and prevent a recurrance of such events. That does NOT mean making excuses for what happened, because an excuse serves to justify the recurrance of the same event, the exact opposite of what a 'reason' potentially does.

--- G. Raven

i'm not saying what he did wasn't stupid - but i'm more inclined to think he did it because people were really, really angry around then, and it was sorta a peer pressure thing.....except more public pressure than from peers

queen of diamonds

9th May 2002, 11:32

guerrillaradio

9th May 2002, 13:13

I can't belive you are an american and have an icon of a burning american flag."

First off, I think I'm right in saying that FoH is actually Canadian. And I'm from the UK, so I don't understand this whole thinking Americans seem to have. Why should you love America just cos you live in it?? What if you know America's foreign policy has caused death and pain to millions of people worldwide, yet your roots are in America, you have a job, home and family and friends are there. Should you still love it (or pretend to love it) just cos you live there??

What the hell is the purpose of this topic?

The purpose of this topic is to demonstrate what America and Americans haven't learnt despite 11/9. Read the original post...

Do you really care about this country?

Why should he??

Fuck you. Why would you pretend to care about America, ohh the lessons we most learn from 9-11 and at the same time burn an american flag.

Have you actually read the post?? I think it was a very good article myself...and why are you so insulted by a burning American flag?? Surely you just see it as a pointless piece of symbolism??

You are really a mother fucker. All your stupid bullshit conspiracy theories, which make no sense at all.

Show me one conspiracy theory in that post...

Dhul Fiqar

9th May 2002, 15:59

queen of diamonds:

Guiliani's motivations aren't really important, it was an example, maybe a bad one. The point I was trying to make is about 'reason' vs. 'excuse'

--- G. Raven

concerned

9th May 2002, 18:22

I might not agree with the Cuban oppressive regime, but I am not coming here with a burning Cuban flag, and if I did you people would be outraged.

I think that the sole fact that you people have to recurr to such simbolism as burning and upside down flags, its pretty pathetic.

And guerrillaradio, I am not saying you should love america, but at least show a little respect. You are insulting 300 million people. And you are insulting me personally, because although I am not American, America gave me refuge when I had to leave Colombia after the guerrillas made it imposible for me to stay. I feel strongly for America as my adoptive country, it has given me a lot. I really feel insulted by your lack of respect and your ignorance.

Dhul Fiqar

10th May 2002, 07:40

Get over it, man, this is a strongly anti-American(government) messageboard.

If you want respect for the sick, capital-driven disgrace that is American society (and symbolized by it's flag), then go chat with likeminded folks. We're not about to listen to this kind of attack, especially since your first post in this thread was a vitriolic and hateful condmenation of beloved members of this community.

--- G. Raven

Fires of History

10th May 2002, 09:43

concerned,

I was born and raised in the U$. And I have every right to burn the flag that represents oppression, domination, and imperialism to virtually every other country on this planet.

I burn a flag every Fourth of July, just as many of my friends do. Just as many, many do around the world all the time. Hmm...ever wonder why?

Did you even read my original post? Your comments don't seem to indicate that.

Also, you can keep your head in the sand as long as you like, but the fact of the matter is that the U$ provoked the events of September 11. Deny that all you want, but many wiser than you have come to realize that simple fact.

You can insult me all you want, but such insults would only come from someone who sold out like you and moved to the U$. What a joke. Don't you enjoy the malls? Don't you enjoy the affluence? Don't you feel so alive?

You disgust me.

queen of diamonds

10th May 2002, 11:56

Quote: from Dhul Fiqar on 7:59 am on June 20, 2002
queen of diamonds:

Guiliani's motivations aren't really important, it was an example, maybe a bad one. The point I was trying to make is about 'reason' vs. 'excuse'

--- G. Raven

yeah, fair enough, i get your point, but i just thought i'd mention that...

guerrillaradio

10th May 2002, 13:20

"I think that the sole fact that you people have to recurr to such simbolism as burning and upside down flags, its pretty pathetic."

Do you really?? Well you know what, I take that as a compliment...to be honest, I (and FoH probably) never really set out to impress people like you...

"I am not saying you should love america, but at least show a little respect. "

Maybe you should respect FoH's right to burn an American flag and criticise their policies, instead of taking the "fuck you, motherfucker" attitude.

"You are insulting 300 million people. And you are insulting me personally..."

Yet again, we are not setting out to be nice. If you came here expecting pro-American sentiments, then you are very much mistaken. You can't invalidate a post just because it criticises America and "insults" you. Where is your rational thought?? Where is your open-mindedness?? Or have you just been swept away by the disgusting American jingoism and xenophobia that has been omnipresent over the last few months??

"I really feel insulted by your lack of respect and your ignorance."

Why should I respect America?? And if I'm ignorant, how come you're insulted?? Surely you could just dismiss me as a dumb pinko or whatever (although I'm one of the least Communist people on here).

Fires of History

10th May 2002, 23:41

Well said Guerrillaradio, that was 'spot on.'

Hey Concerned, I burn the flag as a protest of amerikkka's policies, not as an indictment of the amerikkkan people.

Do you honestly believe that the amerikkka of today is what the Founding Fathers envisioned? I hope not. And if you do, you have a seriously large amount of remedial U$ history to catch up on.

And I am just one of thousands of expatriates who leave the U$ every year; and part of the many more still in the U$ who would like to do so.

Do you think I care that I offend you? Do you think that I care that I might offend an amerikkkan by burning the precious stars and bars? Well, kiss my ass. Amerikkka is the one who offends. Amerikkka is the one true rogue state enforcing their political and economic agenda all over the world through violence. Amerikkka is the one who offends any semblance of human rights, human equality, and human dignity every damn day.

But hey, don't mind me. Just go back to living in your dream world that the U$ is a just and democratic society, and that their brand of corporate mono-culture is what the world truly needs.

concerned

11th May 2002, 01:28

Fires of History,

Shame on you and your friends for burning the flag of your own country. You have no roots, you have no decency, you are nothing.

You are so messed up, it's unbelievable. And the sad thing is that you will die angry, frustrated and dead wrong convinced of all the bullshit you write. I don't think there is much remedy for you man. What a waste you are.

-- " the fact of the matter is that the U$ provoked the events of September 11. Deny that all you want, but many wiser than you have come to realize that simple fact."

Ha!, how incredibly ridiculous you are... Oh, so now it a "simple fact" that the US caused the events of September 11 huh... And I guess you are the very wisest person in this board since you can tell so quickly who is wiser than who... probably the wisest are the people that eat all your bullshit right (although of course they will never quite be as wise as you)??...

-- "Do you honestly believe that the amerikkka of today is what the Founding Fathers envisioned?"

No, certainly not. I think the Founding Fathers envisioned a land that respected the personal freedoms and gave opportunity to their citizens to pursue success and what makes them happy. I don't think the Founding Fathers never imagined that America would grow out to be not only that, but also the most powerful and wealthiest nation on the planet. I don't think the Founding Fathers were that ambitious at the time.

-- "And I am just one of thousands of expatriates who leave the U$ every year; and part of the many more still in the U$ who would like to do so."

Oh, and please do so very soon, the US definitely doesn't need you, go live to your socialist utopia, to Cuba or to wherever...
why don't you do so? who is holding you? this country gives you the entire freedom to go, or are you going to deny that as well??....

And lets face it, this is a country of immigrants, and not of emigrants. The number of people wanting to leave is absurdly low compared to the number of people wanting to come and stay. This is a measurable fact. This is for a reason I think maybe just a little bit outside of the limits of your superior intellect. Because whether you like it or not this country offers the best living standard, the more freedoms and the more opportunities....and normal people usually like that... but then again there will always be weirdoes like you...

Nateddi

11th May 2002, 02:50

Concerned,

I believe Western Europe / Socio-Democracies have the best living standards, not the US where 35,000,000 live in poverty, and even more don't even have access to the basic human needs of healthcare, the US has also not signed several UN resolutions, signed by almost every other nation regarding human rights. I don't like your love it or leave it mentality, it is so narrow minded. This is not why people support democracy.

Oh yes, please get the hell out of this forum, post inside your cage or you will be banned. The Soc vs Cap forum was made when right-wingers would turn every thread in other forums into a debate on the same subject, so do it in SvC, get the hell out of here.

(Edited by Nateddi at 2:52 am on May 11, 2002)

concerned

11th May 2002, 06:57

Nateddi,

I lived 3 years in Europe. Half of the time in Germany and half of the time in Sweden. They have by no means the best living standards. They have really high unemployment rates, a lot of people are abusing the welfare, and they are totally dependent on the US economy, whether they like it or not. All the car manufacturers in Germany would go bankrupt in a second if there wasn't a market for their pricy cars in the US. Sweden has the highest debt as a percentage of their GDP of the developed World. Sweden is actually trying to cut down on their welfare benefits.

Americans, earn on average, 10 times as much as the average swede. I know this for a fact, as I said I lived in Sweden for a long time, I have lots of friends there, I go there often, even my girlfriend is from there. You can already begin to see homeless people in the streets of Stockholm, despite all the welfare and the unfair redistribution of goods from hard working individuals to the not so hard working ones.

There are a lot of poor people in Western Europe as well. And what you say about healthcare in America is not true either. People are covered one way or another. What the poor may not have is health insurance, but they do have healthcare, people are not just dying on the streets. Just here in Boston where I live there is a hospital (and a very good one I might add) in which any patient without the resources doesn't have to pay a cent. There are also hundreds of charities accross the country providing health care for those who can't afford health insurance.

And forgive me but some UN resolutions are just a joke and the US is clever in not signing them. The UN, conceived during World War II to globalize postwar peace, is a planet-size, money-guzzling bureaucracy in gay blue berets. The purpose of the U.N. is to give governments cover for pursuing their own interests. Think multinational NPR: Nobody with a brain listens to them, but they keep talking anyway.

And, oh yes, I will leave wherever I want to, and if you kick me out I will enter again and again with another identity. Don't expect me to care about your stupid rules... I'll go whenever the hell I want to, you don't respect any rules yourself, and the majority of you people claim to be anarchists, so why should you expect me to behave in a different way?

Fires of History

11th May 2002, 09:26

concerned,

You're obviously not 'concerned' about anybody but yourself. You obviously see wealth as the end all of civilization, and you cannot see that the idea of community is essential to that. Your time in Europe was wasted if you think their standard of living is lower than the U$. Sure, maybe they don't have as much 'stuff,' but that's not the point. You don't need a lot of shit to thrive as an individual; you need a community in which you can thrive, something the U$ is definitely missing.

You claim to be from Colombia, yet you have traveled to Europe, you have traveled to the U$. I don't even want to think about the kind of finances you have at your disposal if that is true. It is no surprise that someone like you supports the U$, was your family given first rights to trade with the U$? Why is it you have such ability to travel so much? Although, at this point, I highly doubt that you have done the things that you claim.

It is obvious that in your time on this planet that you have decided to worship the almighty dollar instead of your community. Why did you leave Colombia? Why don't you go and spend time at the mall where you belong? Don't waste your time here, we don't care about the antics of someone trying to discredit the true meaing of life. You worship money, not community. Go worship your money somewhere else.

The rest of your "points" are not even worth my time to respond to. Your such a joke; are you, what, 14-17 years old? You're full of shit, and I don't believe you for a second.

You still disgust me.

concerned

11th May 2002, 17:50

Fires of History,

I am honored to disgust you, and no, I am neither 14 or 17 , are you? I am in my thirties..

And I did live in Europe for three years, whether you believe it or not, I was working there. And no, I am not rich, I am middle class, I just love travelling and save a lot to do so.

I lived in a town in Germany called Freiburg, in the southwest. It is near the border with France and Switzerland (in the black forest). Wir konnen auch auf Deutsch sprechen, wenn du willst!. And in Sweden I lived in both Stockholm and Gothenburg. Jag pratar svenska ackso, dummkopf!! (sorry my keyboard doesn't have swedish characters). Anyway, I don't have to prove to you anything, you choose to put your belief in ridiculous conspiracy theories and dismiss all the true facts that go against your line of thought.

I quite frankly don't see what you are talking about a "community". I believe there is just a much a community here as there is in Europe. Most of Americans, and just look out your window, are very nationalistic, they really like it here, and there are American flags pretty much everywhere. There is a strong sense of community and proudness to be an American, I am sorry you don't form part of that and choose to be left out and complain about the lack of "community".

And Fires of History, you used to disgust me a lot too, very much, but now that I have read more carefully your messages, you don't disgust me so much anymore. I feel sorry for you. Obviously you must have not have had a happy childhood or something, maybe there are some traumas in there that I don't even want to know about, sorry about that man, I wish somebody could help you.

CheGuevara

11th May 2002, 17:53

You're really an idiot. The flags only came out as part of this USA hooray spasm after 9/11. Before that, the only time I ever saw them were on veterans' graves at the cemetary.

concerned

11th May 2002, 18:03

Oh, and Fires of History, I almost forgot to answer on of your questions. Well it is actually kind of stupid to answer this one, since I already told this to you, and just proves that you can't really read very well. But anyways, the reason I left Colombia was because me and my family were facing consistent extortion by the guerrillas, and in fear of our lives we came here and sought refuge in the US.

And Che, welcome to the party! Gald you could join. Yes you are right that a lot of the flags came as a rush of nationalism after 9/11, but there were quite a lot of flags before that too. Anyway, nationalism is not about flags, even before 9/11 Americans had a strong sense of nationalism and proud for their country, 9/11 only helped to boost this feeling, it didn't just created feelings that wenren't there before at all.

guerrillaradio

11th May 2002, 20:46

"Shame on you and your friends for burning the flag of your own country. You have no roots, you have no decency, you are nothing."

Interesting. How did you arrive at that conclusion then?? Was it:

Flag burning + superior debating skills --> moron

Forgive me for missing your logic...

"You are so messed up, it's unbelievable."

Why thank you...I'm sure Mr Fires likes being regarded as messed up by sheep such as you...

"And the sad thing is that you will die angry, frustrated and dead wrong convinced of all the bullshit you write."

This is quite possibly true. But it fails to give us any reason to belief your ideology does it??

"I don't think there is much remedy for you man."

What the fuck are you, a doctor??

"Oh, so now it a "simple fact" that the US caused the events of September 11 huh... And I guess you are the very wisest person in this board since you can tell so quickly who is wiser than who... probably the wisest are the people that eat all your bullshit right (although of course they will never quite be as wise as you)??"

Ok, I fail to see two things:

(i) When FoH ever referred to his intelligence

(ii) What this has to do with the US' responsibility for the 11/9 attacks.

"I don't think the Founding Fathers never imagined that America would grow out to be not only that, but also the most powerful and wealthiest nation on the planet. I don't think the Founding Fathers were that ambitious at the time."

You say that like it's a good thing...

"...this country offers the best living standard, the more freedoms and the more opportunities....and normal people usually like that... but then again there will always be weirdoes like you..."

So he's weird now eh?? Good arguments mate:

Cappie = normal
Commie = weird

I can see how you'd fit in in Bush's country...

concerned

11th May 2002, 21:35

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 8:46 pm on May 11, 2002
"Shame on you and your friends for burning the flag of your own country. You have no roots, you have no decency, you are nothing."

Interesting. How did you arrive at that conclusion then?? Was it:

Flag burning + superior debating skills --> moron

Forgive me for missing your logic...

No guerrilla radio, that was not quite the logic, the logic can be more summarized as this:

Burning owns country's flag + thinking he is wiser than everybody else and hold the ultimate truth + stupid arguments -->moron

"Oh, so now it a "simple fact" that the US caused the events of September 11 huh... And I guess you are the very wisest person in this board since you can tell so quickly who is wiser than who... probably the wisest are the people that eat all your bullshit right (although of course they will never quite be as wise as you)??"

Ok, I fail to see two things:

(i) When FoH ever referred to his intelligence

He did when considering the bullshit he writes, which is entirely his opinion, as "simple facts". He also did when determining who is wiser than who in this forum.

(ii) What this has to do with the US' responsibility for the 11/9 attacks.

Nothing, the whole 11/9 conspiracy theory FoH is so dumb that it really deserves no comments.

"I don't think the Founding Fathers never imagined that America would grow out to be not only that, but also the most powerful and wealthiest nation on the planet. I don't think the Founding Fathers were that ambitious at the time."

You say that like it's a good thing...

Yes, guerrillaradio, you are smart in pointing this out, it is exactly what I am saying.

"...this country offers the best living standard, the more freedoms and the more opportunities....and normal people usually like that... but then again there will always be weirdoes like you..."

So he's weird now eh?? Good arguments mate:

Cappie = normal
Commie = weird

I can see how you'd fit in in Bush's country...

I never said cappie normal, commie weird. I was just referring expecifically to FoH. But now that I think about it, you commies are a little weird. Most people recognize that life in America does have the best living standards, and that is why this country has so much immigration. However you people seem to like life in places where life its harsh, like Cuba, and where people have consistently always been trying to leave.

guerrillaradio

11th May 2002, 22:04

Burning owns country's flag + thinking he is wiser than everybody else and hold the ultimate truth + stupid arguments -->moron

When did FoH ever claim to "hold the ultimate truth"??
And you can't dismiss an argument as stupid without actually debating it y'know...silly person.

He did when considering the bullshit he writes, which is entirely his opinion, as "simple facts". He also did when determining who is wiser than who in this forum.

Er...what??

Nothing, the whole 11/9 conspiracy theory FoH is so dumb that it really deserves no comments.

You are obsessed with this conspiracy theory!!! Nowhere in any post FoH has made is there any reference to any conspiracy involved 11/9 whatsoever!!! Get that into that fuckin head of yours!!

Whatever, I'm fucking bored...go to the SvsC board...

Fires of History

11th May 2002, 22:15

concerned,

If you think the U$ become so rich through honest means, you have a lot of remedial history to study. Sure, amerikkka is full of stuff, but so what? What is so great about products created on the blood and tears of third world sweatshops? Highest standard of living? HA! No, just the highest amount of shit you can buy to fill the pathetic void.

And, like Guerrillaradio, this is boring, and pointless. You think amerikkka is so great because you immigrated. Well congratulations, you're like every other immigrant who thinks that the U$ is just a perfect wonderland.

Well, enjoy. Aren't malls, shopping, new cars, prefabricated homes, and all the rest what it's all about? Well, enjoy, newest member of the consumer society. Shop yourself crazy, and remember, you're a real and complete person now, safe in the bubble of amerikkkan security and luxury, already your memories of the poor Colombians are drifting away...

...aren't you happy now?

Have A Nice McLife :)

concerned

12th May 2002, 00:09

FoH,

I am glad to see we are toning it down a little. First of all I want to make it clear that what really disturb me is how you can post an article like this, pretending to care about America, when it is clear that you don't. So why pretend? I seemed pretty hypocritical.

And I think you fail to realize that this was an unprecedented act of terrorism in World history, and that it is not as easy as you think to prevent this kind of terrorism. Nobody in their right mind could have imagined at the moment that some wackos would decide to do such a horrendous terrorist act kidnapping planes and flying them into buildings. It is easy to say after it happened, how could you haven't prevent this?, but it was really something hard to concieve at the time.

I think most Americans recognize that although this federal agencies weren't very successful to prevent September 11th, the only way out right now is to modernize them given what we now know terrorists are willing to do and invest more money in them. I am sure they are doing their best, terrorism is just very hard to fight against, because of its surprise factor and because just about anything can be a target.

About the military tribunals, I think most Americans agree with them as well. Nobody wants long, pointless, O.J.Simposon trials for these terrorists, they want some action and they want to get rid of them as soon and smoothly as possible. Why are you so concerned about the fate of these terrorists? Why would you expect a public outcry for them? As always the left seems more concerned with the rights of criminals, than with the consequences to society of giving these rights to them.

And I don't believe also the US became rich by exploiting other countries. It became rich even before it began actively trading with other countries. And notions of explotaition of third world countries for the most part amount to nothing more than making excuses for nations that have not been as industrious and ingenuos as the US has been. The US is by far the most altruistic country on earth, both in terms of dollars spent (debt relief and direct monetary aid) and in people and organizations contributing service and aid abroad.

And no, the memories of the poor colombians are not drifting away. Unfortunately there is not much I can do about that now, since I can't go back. But I follow the colombian situation closely and it worries me to no end what it is happening there.

concerned

12th May 2002, 00:12

By the way, thanks for changing your icon.

Dhul Fiqar

12th May 2002, 05:50

I'm still seeing the same icon...

--- G. Raven

p.s. you're an idiot, concerned, but that's pretty self-evident

Fires of History

12th May 2002, 07:19

concerned,

You are obviously oblivious to decades of U$ intervention all over the Middle East. You obviously don't understand that the U$ funded Bin Laden and had him trained by the CIA, then slighted him later because it was convenient.

You also have no conception of how the U$' concentration of wealth came to be.

This is so pointless...not to mention this should be tranferred to SvC.

Just go back to enjoying your McLife.

concerned

12th May 2002, 18:20

Fires of History,

I see you have your old icon back...nice, for a moment there you had me fooled and I actually thought you were smarter than I thought and I had made a mistake with you.

The US didn't funded Bin Laden, the US funded Afghanistan in their struggle to get rid of the Soviet invasion. Bin Laden just happened to be part of it all at the time. And they didn't slighted him later because it was convenient, they just left because the war was over and the soviets were gone.

When I look at the roads in America, which are wonderfull, when I look at the bridges, when I look at the tall buildings and the beautiful houses, all of these things were done by Americans and I really don't understand how explotaition of other countries could have made this things appear.

Spain for example did exploited Latinamerica for centuries, taking all the gold away and making the local people work as slaves for them. Then again it made them no good and they became one of the worst off nations of the European Union, they aren't precisely the wealthiest.