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View Full Version : War in Iraq not a war of imperialism???



The Sloth
6th August 2004, 17:05
While I'm sure the rational individuals on this board have already realized that the War in Iraq was a war of imperialism/markets/resources, I'll attempt to reinforce this further for those that have been kept in the dark, so to speak. This thread is thus directed at the Party for the International Cappie-Parasitic Gestapo a.ka. the "right opposition" on this board.

First of all, this is the way the "Executive Order Protecting the Development Fund for Iraq and Certain Other Property in Which Iraq Has An Interest" from May 22, 2003 starts out:


I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, find that the threat of attachment or other judicial process against the Development Fund for Iraq, Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein, and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatsoever arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests therein, obstructs the orderly reconstruction of Iraq, the restoration and maintenance of peace and security in the country, and the development of political, administrative, and economic institutions in Iraq. This situation constitutes an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat.

It continues with the subsequent "orders"...


Section 1. Unless licensed or otherwise authorized pursuant to this order, any attachment, judgment, decree, lien, execution, garnishment, or other judicial process is prohibited, and shall be deemed null and void, with respect to the following:

(a) the Development Fund for Iraq, and

(b) all Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein, and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatsoever arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests therein, in which any foreign country or a national thereof has any interest, that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United States persons.


You can read this in its entirety here. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030522-15.html)

Before I continue, I'd like to say that it's extremely odd indeed that six different intelligence reports from six different nations all said the same exact thing about WMD's in Iraq, yet all six of them were horribly, horribly mistaken beyond imagination.

According to the Guerrilla News Network:


It's official. The intelligence used by the British government as a pretext for the invasion of Iraq was flawed. No - Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction that could be deployed within forty five minutes. No - the intelligence claiming Iraq was still producing chemical and biological munitions was not based on reliable sources. No - the experts on such weapons were not properly consulted during this process. No - investigations did not prove a link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. The actions of the US-UK alliance were based upon the veracity of these claims. So what went awry and who is responsible?

Well, according to today's news, "no one" is responsible. Sure, the common defense of Bush is that he acted on "bad intelligence" and didn't intentionally lie, but hey, even though that is debatable, those that did the real lying in preparation for the intelligence reports are not only not going to be held accountable, but they are not even going to be reported. "Oh well, it's all in the past, nothing can be done now" is the conservative catch-phrase of today.


The latest internal British investigation into these matters led by Lord Butler, the former Cabinet Secretary, reported that no particular individual(s) were to blame for this series of blunders. It was – he concluded – a "collective" failure.

And,


Yet Blair has presided over perhaps the most catastrophic failure in the history of British intelligence, and the worst British foreign policy blunder since the 1956 Suez crisis. Anthony Eden, the then Prime minister of Britain was ruined by the subsequent political impasse of Suez. Blair on the other hand seems to have once again earned his nickname ‘Teflon Tony' in the wake of another crisis. Mistakes were made, but apparently all decisions and claims were made – according to the Prime Minister – in "good faith." Butler’s conclusion was that the structure of decision making, intelligence analysis and distribution in a "small circle" of key officials was to blame.

Oh really? Hmmmm....


Scott Ritter is a prophet of sorts, and if we had listened to him and respected his intellect, knowledge and honesty, we could have avoided the war in Iraq and its cost in lives and dollars.

In September 2002, Time magazine asked Ritter whose Iraq policy was worse, Bill Clinton's or George W. Bush's. Ritter's response:

"Bush, because of its ramifications. It threatens a war that probably lacks any basis in law or substantive fact. It has a real chance of putting thousands of American lives at risk and seeks to dictate American will on the world."

Who is this Scott Ritter guy?

He is a former marine and a weapons inspector.


Before we attacked the Iraqi people, Ritter was often seen on television as a laughable "expert." The Fox News talking heads treated him as a lunatic. How could he be anything else when he disagreed with George W. Bush?

And Ritter has a temper, so that added to the fun. It was a treat to see him get all red faced and wonder when he'd explode.

It mattered not that Ritter was painfully honest and knew exactly what he was talking about.

This seems to happen all the time. An "expert," when having a differing opinion, even when it is backed up by facts, is "dismissed" as a "lunatic." I remember watching a video of Bill O' Reilly embarassing himself and his guest by attacking him because he said the United States helped to train and maintain the Taliban. No matter that he cited sources, facts, etc. Since he was oviously so "un-patriotic," he's unworthy to be listened to. All in the name of an irrational and emotional attachment to the government, foreign policy, etc. that is supposed to always "do the right thing." Seems as if I can't find a single fault in foreign policy since the 1920's on which a rabid right-winger won't call me on...even Hiroshima and Nagasaki are "justified." America is perfect, it seems.


A search through newspaper and magazine articles leading up to the war against Iraq leads me to these conclusions:

1) Bill Clinton was as concerned about Saddam Hussein as George W. Bush is, but less eager to risk American lives to deal with him. Unfortunately for all of us, the sexy impeachment fiasco pushed by the Republicans diverted our attention, so most of us weren't paying attention.

However, Ritter was far from happy with Clinton's support for the inspectors, or lack of it. In September 1998, he told Newsweek, "I heard somebody say it very effectively: '[Secretary of State] Madeleine Albright blocked more inspections in 1997 than Saddam Hussein did.' It's a funny quip, but unfortunately true."

2) The four days of intensive bombings ordered by Clinton at the end of 1998 probably taught Saddam that his efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction weren't worth the cost. The economic sanctions imposed by the United Nations at the end of the first Gulf War were seriously crippling Iraq, and trying to acquire those weapons simply added to Saddam's misery. He gave up but pretended not to. Saving face is a big deal for dictators, as it is for all politicians (see: "Johnson, Lyndon B."; or "Nixon, Richard M."; or "Bush, George W.")

Of course, the fact that Bill Clinton was "just as concerned" is meaningless to a communist...it shows that people are very willing to "fight over" the dual-party monopoly, a.k.a. which "party" controls the people for four or eight years, as if it mattered that much in the past. But nonetheless, this is an interesting point that was brought up.


3) The "intelligence community" never said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. In all the articles I read, the CIA and other agencies were very careful not to overstate the danger presented by Saddam.

For example, The Washington Post reported in November 2000, "The CIA does not agree that Iraq possesses a crude nuclear weapon. 'We don't believe they have the fissile material required for a nuclear weapon,' said one senior U.S. official. ... 'Nor do we believe they currently have the infrastructure to build a nuclear weapon.'"

4) In a related matter, Clinton was far more concerned about terrorist attacks against the United States than he was about the threat of Saddam. But he had a hard time selling his concern to others, even though he tried. He originated an antiterrorist agency in government in 1994 and increased its budget every year thereafter, from an original $5.7 billion reported in 1995 to $11.1 billion in 2000.

I was unable to find any antiterrorist actions by Bush before the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, but that doesn't mean he didn't do anything. It could be his efforts just didn't make the public prints, or that I couldn't find the articles about them.

5) Scott Ritter took part in more than 30 inspections missions in Iraq, and probably knew more about Iraq's WMD programs than anyone. The Iraqis were very annoyed with him and accused him and other inspectors of being spies. They were right; the inspectors were pressed into spying. That was a distraction for them.

6) As a U.N. inspector, Ritter was constantly unhappy with the Iraqis because they failed to destroy all their weapons. After the inspectors were pulled out of Iraq in 1998, Ritter appeared to change his tune, saying Iraq's weapons programs were no threat.

The difference, Ritter explained to the scoffers on TV, was that as an inspector, he expected total compliance and didn't get it. Later, as an outsider, he was able to say that even without total compliance Iraq, was no threat.

"I've never given Iraq a clean bill of health," Ritter told Time in September 2002. "I've said that no one has backed up any allegations that Iraq has constituted weapons-of-mass-destruction capability with anything that resembles substantive fact."

The politicians (including Al Gore, who warned of "imminent danger" in 1998) were hyping the Iraq threat, as were my fellow jackals of the press -- especially columnists! -- but the various intelligence agencies were far more prudent. To repeat, they often cautioned against overrating the threat posed by Saddam.

So why would you hype up the threat? "Just" to go off to war?

Back to Butler and Britain:


It has not gone unnoticed that while the British government has been able to duck incoming fire over the case for war, other people have not been so fortunate. Greg Dyke, former head of the BBC, and Andrew Gilligan, the journalist the center of the furor surrounding the mysterious death of biological weapons expert Dr. David Kelly’s death that led to the Hutton inquiry, have hit back in the light of Butler’s findings. Dyke told Channel 4 news: "Dr. Kelly told Andrew Gilligan the document had been ‘sexed up’ and one of the examples of it having been ‘sexed up’….was the forty-five minute claim. Here, we are told today...that the forty-five minute claim should not have been in the document without a set of caveats, caveats that were there in the early drafts and disappeared. The question is who took out the caveats?...The BBC was perfectly right to report Dr. Kelly’s allegations."

To continue:


In the wake of the Hutton Report, both Dyke and Gilligan resigned from their positions. There was blood on the carpet, but none of it belonged to the pro-war establishment (those government officials who did resign did so because they disagreed with and criticized the lead up to war). Gilligan, along with most of the nation’s national newspapers expressed incredulity at what looked like another feat of escapology by the UK government, "Although Lord Butler says he finds no evidence of deliberate embellishment or misleading, many of his findings do exactly that." Gilligan had initially broken the story, with Dr Kelly as the alleged source, that the government had "sexed up" the published Iraq intelligence. Hutton had concluded that Gilligan’s claims were "unfounded". Renowned scientist, Richard Dawkins, (author of The Selfish Gene) remarked in response to Butler’s report, "I find it hard to understand precisely what Andrew Gilligan was supposed to have got wrong."

Despite Blair’s mild contrition in admitting "mistakes made," it was no mea culpa and there certainly do not seem to be any government resignations forthcoming. In fact, John Scarlett, chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC) responsible for drawing up the September 2002 "dossier of intelligence," is to be appointed as the next head of MI6, the UK’s primary intelligence gathering agency. Scarlett is a crucial figure in this story because he was directly responsible for the intelligence that actually reached – or did not reach – the Prime Minister’s desk.

Oh, how nice. So we find the one of the culprits responsible behind the "intelligence failure," and instead of being attacked for such serious shit, he's "promoted" behind-the-scenes. I would think that at least Blair would be angry, but he's not. It doesn't matter that there was a "failure" or if there were any weapons in the first place. But then the question naturally arises....why are these governments, then, so happy about the invasion, even giving promotions to the culprits behind the "intelligence failures"? Like I said, the culprits will not be reported (I had to get this information from the Guerrilla News Network!), and most likely not punished. In this case, they are rewarded.


Speaking to an interviewer on the BBC program Panorama on July 11th 2004, Jones identifies a litany of government abuse of intelligence regarding Iraq. In 1998 the US and UK carried out a series of intense air strikes against Iraq. These were according to Blair, ostensibly "To degrade the ability of Saddam Hussein to build and use weapons of mass destruction." The UK and US acted without UN approval, bombing Baghdad on the basis of limited intelligence. Perhaps this sounds familiar? Jones’ department at the time was asked to provide intelligence on potential targets for these strikes. Referring to whether or not the targets identified were involved in a WMD program, he said, "It's on the basis of the information available to us and the assessments that my branch undertook that we did not have a high degree of confidence that any of those… that any of the facilities that we could suggest were active in the program."

Despite the lack of confidence in the identified targets, the Defense Intelligence staff were asked to sign a public statement declaring the operation a success. This is dangerous territory for the government as it clearly highlights a precedent in taking action not warranted by available intelligence. Just how sparse this intelligence was is revealed in the exchange between Jones and his interviewer, John Ware:

WARE: I just want to try and get a snapshot from you of how big the gaps were in the coverage of intelligence from Iraq. Was it known which agents had been produced since Gulf War One?

JONES: No, it wasn't.

WARE: Was it known where or how the agents were being produced?

JONES: No.

WARE: Was it known whether agent had been stockpiled or consisted only of a small reserve?

JONES: It was not known with certainty. There was a reasonable assumption that there may have been some stocks left over from the first Gulf War. If there had been any other production, then we have not identified that it had taken place.

WARE: Did you know where and how the weapons had been filled with agents? JONES: No.

WARE: Was it known how the weapons and agent had been transported and deployed?

JONES: No.

And you go off to war, anyway? Fuck! There must be another reason, right?


Fast-forward to 2002: Prior to the release of the September dossier, Jones once again had concerns about the government presentation of limited intelligence that his department provided. Important further intelligence had apparently been gathered by MI6 – Jones and his team were not allowed access to this intelligence. This is despite being told that the new information "clinched" all of his concerns and supposedly completed the intelligence picture of Iraq’s capabilities. Shortly before the release of the final intelligence dossier Jones was told that he and his team should make no further substantive comments on the issue of WMDs.

But if this is about maintaining international security from that WMD-toting Saddam Hussein, why didn't the government want new information released that would not only contradict reports of the existence of WMD's, but also dismiss them completely? War was wanted that bad, eh? And obviously, it wasn't even about "a threat" posed by Iraq.


The story becomes ever more incredible with the revelation in the Butler report that MI6 had in fact "withdrawn" crucial intelligence on WMD – that is to say, key evidence used as planks in the case against Iraq was deemed to be unfit. MI6 just didn’t bother to tell anyone – at least anyone who mattered. This apparently included Lord Hutton, and the Prime Minister, who claimed that he was only made aware of this with the publication of Butler’s report. The Prime Minister’s lack of awareness in this case seems very peculiar. A spokesman for Blair said that MI6 opted not to inform the Hutton inquiry because it was deemed "too sensitive" to be made public, while the head of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove took the decision not to inform the Prime Minister. So just who the hell is in charge here?

Presumably, as the Prime Minister was one of the individuals under the spotlight in Hutton’s inquiry it may have seemed inappropriate to inform him of something that may have forced him to make an executive decision with regard to the investigation of which he was a subject. He may have been put into the difficult position of having to decide whether or not to quash the revelation from MI6. Yet The Telegraph this week released a damaging story, provided by one of the members of Butler’s inquiry team that indicates that Blair is very much in charge of the "independent" investigatory process. The Telegraph’s source indicated that changes were made to the Butler report, changes requested by the government – specifically concerning Blair. The original sentence allegedly expressed "the opinion that Mr. Blair personally masterminded the misleading impression left by the dossier." And - as the Telegraph goes on to point out, "The passage is important because Downing Street maintained last week that the report at no point questions Mr. Blair's "good faith."

God-damn!


I know this is running a little long, but let's get to where I'm becoming more and more interested in: the hand-over that occured June 28th.


Let's the what occured before, during, and after this "hand-over of power":


Officially, the U.S. occupation of Iraq ended on June 28, 2004. But in reality, the United States is still in charge: Not only do 138,000 troops remain to control the streets, but the "100 Orders" of L. Paul Bremer III remain to control the economy.

These little noticed orders enacted by Bremer, the now-departed head of the now-defunct Coalition Provisional Authority, go to the heart of Bush administration plans in Iraq. They lock in sweeping advantages to American firms, ensuring long-term U.S. economic advantage while guaranteeing few, if any, benefits to the Iraqi people.

The Bremer orders control every aspect of Iraqi life — from the use of car horns to the privatization of state-owned enterprises. Order No. 39 alone does no less than "transition [Iraq ] from a … centrally planned economy to a market economy" virtually overnight and by U.S. fiat.

Privatized industries seem to be profitable:


A sampling of the most important orders demonstrates the economic imprint left by the Bush administration: Order No. 39 allows for: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100% foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" — which means no preferences for local over foreign businesses; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses.

And, finally....


Thus, it forbids Iraqis from receiving preference in the reconstruction while allowing foreign corporations — Halliburton and Bechtel, for example — to buy up Iraqi businesses, do all of the work and send all of their money home. They cannot be required to hire Iraqis or to reinvest their money in the Iraqi economy. They can take out their investments at any time and in any amount.

Orders No. 57 and No. 77 ensure the implementation of the orders by placing U.S.-appointed auditors and inspector generals in every government ministry, with five-year terms and with sweeping authority over contracts, programs, employees and regulations.

Order No. 17 grants foreign contractors, including private security firms, full immunity from Iraq's laws. Even if they, say, kill someone or cause an environmental disaster, the injured party cannot turn to the Iraqi legal system. Rather, the charges must be brought to U.S. courts.

Order No. 40 allows foreign banks to purchase up to 50% of Iraqi banks.

Order No. 49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40% to a flat 15%. The income tax rate is also capped at 15%.

Order No. 12 (renewed on Feb. 24) suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq." This led to an immediate and dramatic inflow of cheap foreign consumer products — devastating local producers and sellers who were thoroughly unprepared to meet the challenge of their mammoth global competitors.

Clearly, the Bremer orders fundamentally altered Iraq's existing laws. For this reason, they are also illegal. Transformation of an occupied country's laws violates the Hague regulations of 1907 (ratified by the United States) and the U.S. Army's Law of Land Warfare. Indeed, in a leaked memo, the British attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, warned Prime Minister Tony Blair that "major structural economic reforms would not be authorized by international law."

With few reconstruction projects underway and with Bremer's rules favoring U.S. corporations, there has been little opportunity for Iraqis to go back to work, leaving nearly 2 million unemployed 1 1/2 years after the invasion and, many believe, greatly fueling the resistance.

Quite the hand-over!

The Sloth
7th August 2004, 02:05
I guess even capitalists can't deny that this was a war of imperialism.

V.I.Lenin
7th August 2004, 02:15
A much better code name for U.S. military presence in Iraq would had been 'Operation Iraqi Liberation' or 'O.I.L.' for short.

Guerrilla22
7th August 2004, 03:04
Haha, that's a good one! Seriously, Bush's foreign policy has been the most reckless since the Reagan administration, perhaps even more so, yet more some reason uninformed and/or fools that just don't want to admit the truth keep praising these two.

Capitalist Imperial
7th August 2004, 18:42
Originally posted by Brooklyn-[email protected] 7 2004, 02:05 AM
I guess even capitalists can't deny that this was a war of imperialism.
I, for one, never denied that this action was undertaken to maintain and extend american interests and sphere of influence in the region. I simply don't have a problem with that.

However, lets not forget a couple of important facts:

1) He attmpted to assasinate Bush Sr. on a trip to Kuwait. That is enough to justify peemptive action to eliminate his regme and the threat of any future assasination attempts by said regime, period.

2) Iraq was in violation of security council resolution 1441 for over a decade, and he blatantly thumbed his nose at the UN when he was asked to come into compliance. Security council resolution 1441 simply stated that he needed to show proof of dismantled weapons and the elimination of a long term weapons program.

He didn't do that, though he easily could have. Instead of providing the proof, he kicked outt weapons inspectors and spat in the world's face. Maybe the UN itself was content to bend over and take that kind of disrespect in the caboose, but the very nation that laid the groundwork for the UN was not.

Not only was he a tyrant, but apparently stupid enough to let his foolish pride cost him his regime.

US actiuon was absolutely justified, see points 1 and 2.

Absoluteluy justified.

Fidelbrand
7th August 2004, 19:15
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 8 2004, 02:42 AM
I, for one, never denied that this action was undertaken to maintain and extend american interests and sphere of influence in the region. I simply don't have a problem with that.

However, lets not forget a couple of important facts:

1) He attmpted to assasinate Bush Sr. on a trip to Kuwait. That is enough to justify peemptive action to eliminate his regme and the threat of any future assasination attempts by said regime, period.

2) Iraq was in violation of security council resolution 1441 for over a decade, and he blatantly thumbed his nose at the UN when he was asked to come into compliance. Security council resolution 1441 simply stated that he needed to show proof of dismantled weapons and the elimination of a long term weapons program.

He didn't do that, though he easily could have. Instead of providing the proof, he kicked outt weapons inspectors and spat in the world's face. Maybe the UN itself was content to bend over and take that kind of disrespect in the caboose, but the very nation that laid the groundwork for the UN was not.

Not only was he a tyrant, but apparently stupid enough to let his foolish pride cost him his regime.

US actiuon was absolutely justified, see points 1 and 2.

Absoluteluy justified.
You don't have a problem with that, but the world has a probelm with that simply because the war is pre-emptive, selfish and unjust. Your fellow citizens and citizens around the globe rallied for these reasons too.

1) Way too personal. Do you expect Bush Jr. to think in such mentality..... and you would still regard him as a political leader of a nation? If such childish mentality is adopted in politics, and even worse, by the president of the United States, then,...... :D

2) How can you show prooofs of dismantled weapons when you don't have them? Didn't Iraq did what that is according to the needs of UN's security council?

I think Bush is the one "apparently stupid enough to let his foolish pride cost him his regime." .....+ his office in the coming election too.

Capitalist Imperial
7th August 2004, 19:22
1) Way too personal. Do you expect Bush Jr. to think in such mentality..... and you would still regard him as a political leader of a nation? If such childish mentality is adopted in politics, and even worse, by the president of the United States, then,...... :D

The fact that it was his father is irrelevant. The ba'athists tried to assasinate a US president. What is to stop them from trying it again at some point? Should Bush do nothing about it? B.S.!!! Don't try to make it personal Fiedelbrand. Even if part of it was personal, that can't be helped, and it doesn't matter. If you attempt to assasinate a US president, you set yourself up for regime change.


2) How can you show prooofs of dismantled weapons when you don't have them? Didn't Iraq did what that is according to the needs of UN's security council?

No, they didn't. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I'm sure that there are areas of expertise than call tell you how to demonstrate compliance. I would surmise that showing empty missle cannisters, suspect factories being used for things other than weapons production, signed or documents related to the acknowledgement of a ceased weapons program are good examples.


I think Bush is the one "apparently stupid enough to let his foolish pride cost him his regime." .....+ his office in the coming election too.

Maybe he'll lose maybe not, it is way too close to make a definitive call at this point.

Fidelbrand
7th August 2004, 19:32
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 8 2004, 03:22 AM
1) Way too personal. Do you expect Bush Jr. to think in such mentality..... and you would still regard him as a political leader of a nation? If such childish mentality is adopted in politics, and even worse, by the president of the United States, then,...... :D

The fact that it was his father is irrelevant. The ba'athists tried to assasinate a US president. What is to stop them from trying it again at some point? Don't try to make it personal Fiedelbrand. Even if part of it was personal, it doesn't matter. If you attempt to assasinate a US peresident, you hang yourself.
Sure part of your logic is correct. (Even if it were partly personal, it doesn't matter.) But what you were refering is a WAR BETWEEN COUNTRIES ? RIGHT? :D

I would hang myself if i take a life of a good president (regardless of which nation he is leading), too suit your patriotic fervent, i reckon Roosevelt & Carter are decent blogs, not Bush. The world would cheer for anyone who bashes this idiotic sad-caSE.

Fidelbrand
7th August 2004, 19:38
No, they didn't. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I'm sure that there are areas of expertise than call tell you how to demonstrate compliance. I would surmise that showing empty missle cannisters, suspect factories being used for things other than weapons production, signed or documents related to the acknowledgement of a ceased weapons program are good examples.

So before you are sure of the expertise information, i think it wld be cool if you like to show them to support your argument, for your own sake. ;)
The things you mentioned were did. Ever read conventional news? :blink:


Maybe he'll lose maybe not, it is way too close to make a definitive call at this point.
Yes, a bit personal there. admit.

Capitalist Imperial
7th August 2004, 19:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 07:38 PM

So before you are sure of the expertise information, i think it wld be cool if you like to show them to support your argument, for your own sake. ;)
The things you mentioned were did. Ever read conventional news? :blink:


Yes, a bit personal there. admit.
So before you are sure of the expertise information, i think it wld be cool if you like to show them to support your argument, for your own sake. ;)
The things you mentioned were did. Ever read conventional news? :blink:

Oh, come on, no one here is an expert on weapons inspection, but we all know he kicked out weapons inspectors before their work was done.

Why?

Osman Ghazi
7th August 2004, 20:00
The fact that it was his father is irrelevant. The ba'athists tried to assasinate a US president. What is to stop them from trying it again at some point?

So thousands had to die to defend the life of the President of the United States? Wow, I wish my life was worth the lives of 15,000 people.


2) Iraq was in violation of security council resolution 1441 for over a decade, and he blatantly thumbed his nose at the UN when he was asked to come into compliance. Security council resolution 1441 simply stated that he needed to show proof of dismantled weapons and the elimination of a long term weapons program.


Israel has been in violation of 69 UN resolutions for over 50 years. By my calculations, that's about 300 times worse. It's obvious that the UN resolution is just thwe flimsiest of excuses. I mean, you attack the UN for all their resolutions against Israel but they make one against Iraq and your willing to kill for it? (Well, not you personally, you're too much of a pussy to actually do anything other than talk big about America's great victory.)


I, for one, never denied that this action was undertaken to maintain and extend american interests and sphere of influence in the region. I simply don't have a problem with that.


Please, the political theory of war died with Hitler. Give it up.

Capitalist Imperial
7th August 2004, 20:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 07:32 PM
Sure part of your logic is correct. (Even if it were partly personal, it doesn't matter.) But what you were refering is a WAR BETWEEN COUNTRIES ? RIGHT? :D

I would hang myself if i take a life of a good president (regardless of which nation he is leading), too suit your patriotic fervent, i reckon Roosevelt & Carter are decent blogs, not Bush. The world would cheer for anyone who bashes this idiotic sad-caSE.

Sure part of your logic is correct. (Even if it were partly personal, it doesn't matter.) But what you were refering is a WAR BETWEEN COUNTRIES ? RIGHT? :D

It was a war against the regime. Now we are trying to reconstruct, and islamic fundamentalists are maiking things more difficult than they need to be.



I would hang myself if i take a life of a good president (regardless of which nation he is leading), too suit your patriotic fervent, i reckon Roosevelt & Carter are decent blogs, not Bush. The world would cheer for anyone who bashes this idiotic sad-caSE.

Thats a sick thing to say. I don't think that most of the world would cheer at Bush's assasination, and for sure they would not have cheered for the assasination of Bush Sr.!!!

Osman Ghazi
7th August 2004, 20:23
Thats a sick thing to say. I don't think that most of the world would cheer at Bush's assasination, and for sure they would not have cheered for the assasination of Bush Sr.!!!


Again, we have etablished that, as a nationalistic American you have no fucking clue what world opinion is.

Capitalist Imperial
7th August 2004, 20:27
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 7 2004, 08:00 PM

So thousands had to die to defend the life of the President of the United States? Wow, I wish my life was worth the lives of 15,000 people.



Israel has been in violation of 69 UN resolutions for over 50 years. By my calculations, that's about 300 times worse. It's obvious that the UN resolution is just thwe flimsiest of excuses. I mean, you attack the UN for all their resolutions against Israel but they make one against Iraq and your willing to kill for it? (Well, not you personally, you're too much of a pussy to actually do anything other than talk big about America's great victory.)



Please, the political theory of war died with Hitler. Give it up.

So thousands had to die to defend the life of the President of the United States? Wow, I wish my life was worth the lives of 15,000 people.

thousands had to die due to saddam's ill-advised attempt to compromise american security. get it right. An asassination on the US president meanss much ore than 1 man, it put the whole nation at risk, and severely hurts the economy.


you're too much of a pussy to actually do anything other than talk big about America's great victory.

LOL, I love how you make these assessments of who I am and what I've done. Please keep posting this rubbish, you only make yourself look more ignorant with your inaccurate and obviously unfounded assertions, and ad-hominem attacks at that.


Please, the political theory of war died with Hitler. Give it up.

I don't know what the heck you are talking about, and , obviously, neither do you.

The Sloth
7th August 2004, 20:32
I, for one, never denied that this action was undertaken to maintain and extend american interests and sphere of influence in the region. I simply don't have a problem with that.

I could understand if the "interests" were to promote total peace and such, but our "interests" were rooted in markets, resources, etc. meaning that Western wealth will be reinforced ONCE AGAIN at the expense of the Arab world.

And then, conservatives will cry their eyes out at the evils of Islam while still refusing to give rise to the material conditons necessary to begin the abolition of religion (conditions such as security in one's culture, education, etc.)

And then another war begins to remove a despot that was probably funded at one point by our government.



Oh, come on, no one here is an expert on weapons inspection, but we all know he kicked out weapons inspectors before their work was done.

Why?

First of all, the purpose of your question is to point to the possibility of weapons, since he kicked out the inspectors so quickly. But since no weapons were found anywhere, I'm sure Hussein obviously had other reasons? What's the point of asking this question if no weapons exist in the first place?


2) Iraq was in violation of security council resolution 1441 for over a decade, and he blatantly thumbed his nose at the UN when he was asked to come into compliance. Security council resolution 1441 simply stated that he needed to show proof of dismantled weapons and the elimination of a long term weapons program.

Absolutely beautiful.

Do you hold the United Nations in such esteem, now?

You don't hold the United Nations in such esteem when they did not vote to go to war with Iraq.

You also don't hold the United Nations in such esteem when they have placed sixty-nine security council resolutions against Israel, more than Iraq by far, and more than any other country in history. Not only that, while Iraq may have been violating one or a couple for a decade, Israel has been violating many more for over thirty-five years. Plus, of course, they have killed and/or displaced 200,000 Palestinian civilians, exist as an apartheid state that is more or less like pre-1990 South Africa, refused to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and have stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in the control of a pathologically sick leader, Ariel Sharon.

Do you support war against them, too?

Or are they too important for "American interests," even when they sent spies such as Jonathan Pollard to sell secrets to the Soviet Union in 1990, sunk the U.S.S. Liberty in the 1970's, and, of course, carried out "Operation Suzzanah" in 1953 by attacking our intelligence installations in Egpyt, and make it look like Arabs did it? And, of course, let's not forget their covert tapping of American phones, a story that has been confirmed by substantial facts, but removed from FOX News when, I'm sure, they were threatened? I posted a link to it in another thread in OI.


In 1990, the U.S. indicated that they had "no opinion" on Iraq's border dispute with Kuwait, thereby encouraging Iraq's invasion—which the U.S. turned to its advantage.

Capitalist Imperial
7th August 2004, 20:35
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 7 2004, 08:23 PM

Again, we have etablished that, as a nationalistic American you have no fucking clue what world opinion is.
Dude, did the doctors withhold your meds today?

Osman Ghazi
7th August 2004, 20:39
thousands had to die due to saddam's ill-advised attempt to compromise american security.

Oh, it was Saddam's fault that you killed people. Isn't it the conservatives who are always talking about personal responsibility?


An asassination on the US president meanss much ore than 1 man

So trying to kill one man is like trying to kill 300 million people?


it put the whole nation at risk, and severely hurts the economy.


Oh, it hurt the economy, so you killed those people for money then?


LOL, I love how you make these assessments of who I am and what I've done. Please keep posting this rubbish, you only make yourself look more ignorant with your inaccurate and obviously unfounded assertions, and ad-hominem attacks at that.


Oh, so you've done something other than be a cheerleader? Tell me all about it.


I don't know what the heck you are talking about, and , obviously, neither do you.

The political theory of war, outlined in Karl von Clausewitz's Vom Kriege, is embodied by the famous phrase from that book: "War is the continuation of policy by other means". That is the political theory of war, as opposed to the Eschatological or cataclysmic theories which communists tend to believe.

Also, you neglected to reply to my argument about Israel.


Dude, did the doctors withhold your meds today?

That's funny, considering you get all your news from FNC, which causes more halucinations per day than magic mushrooms.

Capitalist Imperial
7th August 2004, 20:47
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 7 2004, 08:39 PM

Oh, it was Saddam's fault that you killed people. Isn't it the conservatives who are always talking about personal responsibility?



So trying to kill one man is like trying to kill 300 million people?



Oh, it hurt the economy, so you killed those people for money then?



Oh, so you've done something other than be a cheerleader? Tell me all about it.



The political theory of war, outlined in Karl von Clausewitz's Vom Kriege, is embodied by the famous phrase from that book: "War is the continuation of policy by other means". That is the political theory of war, as opposed to the Eschatological or cataclysmic theories which communists tend to believe.

Also, you neglected to reply to my argument about Israel.

Oh, it was Saddam's fault that you killed people. Isn't it the conservatives who are always talking about personal responsibility?

????What??? It was Saddam's fault that he tried to assasinate the president of the U.S.



So trying to kill one man is like trying to kill 300 million people?

It's like trying to shake-up 300 million people, compromise their security, and their economy.



Oh, it hurt the economy, so you killed those people for money then?

That is just one factor, stop circumventing. Besides, should we just sit back and let our economy decline and do nothing? I think not. Preemption was a good call here.



Oh, so you've done something other than be a cheerleader? Tell me all about it.

Its laughable to suggest I have anything to prove to you.


The political theory of war, outlined in Karl von Clausewitz's Vom Kriege, is embodied by the famous phrase from that book: "War is the continuation of policy by other means". That is the political theory of war, as opposed to the Eschatological or cataclysmic theories which communists tend to believe.

"War as an extension of politics"? Thanks for the clarification, though I disagree that it is dead. Very alive and well, my friend, and hapening as we speak.

As for israel, I've never claimed to be a big proponent of them, but I do recognize their worth to us as a prxy state.

Osman Ghazi
8th August 2004, 01:51
????What??? It was Saddam's fault that he tried to assasinate the president of the U.S.


And so to punish Saddam, you killed 15,000 of the people that he oppressed?


It's like trying to shake-up 300 million people, compromise their security, and their economy.


You know as well as I that the Presiedent is a puppet. Anything he says was just told to him by his advisors, so as long as they didn't get assassinated too, I don't see the problem.


That is just one factor, stop circumventing. Besides, should we just sit back and let our economy decline and do nothing? I think not. Preemption was a good call here.


So you are saying that it is okay to kill people for money?


"War as an extension of politics"? Thanks for the clarification, though I disagree that it is dead. Very alive and well, my friend, and hapening as we speak.


What I meant was that most citizens no longer believe in the political theory. Mos Americans believe in the "ethnocentric cataclysmic" theory of war. That is to say, they view war as a calamity, but they view it as something being thrust upon them by other forces in the world, a sort of "us against them" attitude where 'defense' and 'national security' are the key buzz words. And politicians generally use this state of affairs to loot as much money as they can for their corporate masters.

Fidelbrand
8th August 2004, 07:35
It was a war against the regime. Now we are trying to reconstruct, and islamic fundamentalists are maiking things more difficult than they need to be.

Islamic fundamentalists' sentiments should be understood in this incidence (As a patriot like yourself, i thought you would be able to understand them?) Centuries long oppression & imperialism have drove their nerves. Thhink on their side, not saying what they are doing is right though.

There's no need for re-consturction after a pre-emptive & unjust war. It's like someone bashing Person A up, then paying for his hospital fees. :D

To date, weapons was not found.



Thats a sick thing to say. I don't think that most of the world would cheer at Bush's assasination, and for sure they would not have cheered for the assasination of Bush Sr.!!!

When did i say we should assasinate your dear presidents? :huh: