The Overman

[all-too-human]

Having only recently picked up a copy of Neitzsche's 'Thus Spoke Zarathurstra', I have been rather confused by his notion of an overman, or superman as it has often been translated. There are conflicting veiwpoints as to wether Neitzsche was referring to physical human evolution or to psychological development, and as to wether the overman is a brute or a scholar. Unfortunately, Neitzsche was very vague about his overman, and I would appreciate if someone more learned than I could clear this up.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Nietzsche's overman is first of all a brave man who transcends the false morality of his time. He seeks to realise himself, in Nietzsche's words 'Become what you are'.

Man has not reached his potential, here is a short sypnosis of his introducing the overman in TSZ.



In Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche, through Zarathustra, says "I teach you the overman. Man is something that shall be overcome [surpassed]. What have you done to overcome [surpass] him? All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment...

He is also symbolic in that it will take a long time for the overman to appear, he has not yet come because the advent of nihilism had not yet arrived. It seems we have arrived at that stage now.


Since Nietzsche is preoccupied with questions of self-surmounting and the Superman, images of the base and higher selves keep cropping up in a highly symbolic form which is quite abstruse, but not undecipherable to Sufic wisdom. The jester (or dwarf) who jumps over the tightrope walker trying to get to the Superman, causing him to fall to his death; "The Ugliest Man" who murders God, because he can’t stand the discovery of the ugliness of his innermost depths by all-seeing eyes; the large black snake that bites the young shepherd inside his throat— all these are prime symbols of the Base Self. When the shepherd bites off the head of the snake, i.e. vanquishes his lower self, he laughs as no man has laughed before— i.e., becomes the Superman or Purified Self. In "The Way of the Creative One," when Nietzsche remarks: "You yourself will always be the worst enemy you can meet," he is again referring to the lower, egotistical self. In the same chapter, "your way leads past yourself and your seven devils" is an uncanny divination of the seven stages of self and their "spirits of gravity" dragging one down, trying to arrest and reverse one’s spiritual development, in Sufism. "You must be ready to burn yourself in your own flame; how could you become new if you haven’t first become ashes" is again the Phoenix-like rebirth of the self. And at the end of this chapter, "I love him who seeks to create beyond himself, and thus succumbs" is another reference to self-transcendence and the Superman, who is too similar in these respects to the Purified (or Perfected) Self in Sufism to be ignored.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

He was in no way referring to physical evolution just to add of ever making reference to any dominany man over others in the name of repression.

The 'blonde beast' is a physical description of a potentially strong, brave man rather than a prototype for a super race of overmen.

[percept¡on]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 07:27 PM
Nietzsche's overman is first of all a brave man who transcends the false morality of his time. He seeks to realise himself, in Nietzsche's words 'Become what you are'.

Man has not reached his potential, here is a short sypnosis of his introducing the overman in TSZ.

He is also symbolic in that it will take a long time for the overman to appear, he has not yet come because the advent of nihilism had not yet arrived. It seems we have arrived at that stage now.


^^ This is one interpretation. One that is quite kind; keep in mind that Mr. Geist has a deep, almost erotic admiration for the philosopher in question.

[Fabi]

Well, I very much disagree that we have reached that stage, but I, too, think that it quite obviously is the interpretation that makes the most sense. The problems of man are not physical, but psychological in nature according to him (correct me if wrong or add if overly simplistic). Wouldn't make any sense to interpret it as some kind of person with superior physical power since that in no way would guarantee the improvement of humanity regarding its attachment to hypocrisy.

[all-too-human]

Indeed, Neitzsche clearly states that the overman is immune to his nausea.


keep in mind that Mr. Geist has a deep, almost erotic admiration for the philosopher in question.
As he should, Neitzsche exemplifies everything that many intellectuals feel they are, or crave to be. Introverted, devoted to his work, and nearly completely cut off from the fallacies of his society. In a word, he was intellectually 'pure'.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 5 2004, 02:57 PM
^^ This is one interpretation. One that is quite kind; keep in mind that Mr. Geist has a deep, almost erotic admiration for the philosopher in question.
An informed one is worth more than others, Nietzsche said that too. :D :P

[Trissy]

I agree with all that Geist has so far said on Nietzsche and the meaning of the Superman. The only small point I disagree with is the statement that we have reached a stage in which nihilism has spread far enough for the Superman's arrival.

Personally the death of God I still feel a little way off although I think the world has made stunning progress towards the event since Nietzsche's era...if we consider it took us 1900 years to create God, then it is surprising that in the following 100 years the authority of God has been put under considerable pressure. The death of God may be far from the ears of the masses but I feel that priestly types in the church are well aware of Him becoming sick...a sickness that shall ulitmately be fatal. It will take time for the masses to become aware of this, and to draw the full conclusions from such an important event/milestone...only then do I feel we shall be ready for the arrival of the Superman.

[Fabi]

I don't think we have made much progress at all. What Sartre has said decades ago, still holds true: We have gotten rid of God, but the underlying hypocrisy and so-called morality has stayed the same. Science has substituted religion in a lot of areas, in the end still following the same agenda. One of System of a Down's songs put it well: Spirit is in all things - science has failed our world, science has failed our mother earth.

To me it is not a matter of progress anyway - the revolution can only happen within the individual, and it can only happen immediately. Compromise is what defines progress - and when trying to overcome morality is has to be done once and for all - if only parts are changed, the system itself is still the same and it will swallow the progress, has has happened countless times before. Every time oppressed try to progress they became oppressors - happening to women, happening to blacks, happening to gays. Or am I mistaken?

[Trissy]

I don't think we have made much progress at all. What Sartre has said decades ago, still holds true: We have gotten rid of God, but the underlying hypocrisy and so-called morality has stayed the same
I think progress has been made because their has been considerable changes since 1900 (although I grant that many things have remained the same). We no longer have heresy trials in the West, a hugh number of Christians are Christians in name alone (in the sense that they don't attend Church, their morality is not strictly that of the Church authorities, and that their beliefs often rest on confusion and laziness), the views of the Church and the State aren't necessarily identical, numbers of people attending religious services are on the decline in many areas, etc. If we consider that Christianity has evolved since its birth and had been a very strong force in society then I think that the 100 years following Nietzsche's death have shown that Christianity is 'falling from grace'. Personally I can't wait to see what the next 100 years bring...


Science has substituted religion in a lot of areas, in the end still following the same agenda. One of System of a Down's songs put it well: Spirit is in all things - science has failed our world, science has failed our mother earth
I think Science is following the road of religion only in the sense that they both claim to know Truth. The difference between them is that in a communist society it is possible to have science working for the people, whereas religion will always be the enemy of communism. This is primarily because religion is a tool created by the ruling classes, but science has merely been acquired by the ruling classes.


Every time oppressed try to progress they became oppressors - happening to women, happening to blacks, happening to gays. Or am I mistaken?
I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make here. I agree that this has happened in the past (in the sense that the Christians were oppressed under the Romans and became oppressors, and a similar thing applies to the Jews) but I don't think it can be said to apply on every occasion. I can't remember women becoming oppressors or gay people becoming oppressors, and the only example of black people becoming oppressors I can think of at this very moment is the Mugabe regime.