China

[Fidelbrand]

Actually Comrade Strawberry has a topic of this in newswire, he gave me a link too...
but since we cannot discuss there....


Top Party leader calls for upholding Marxism

www.chinaview.cn 2004-04-29 07:35:25


BEIJING, April 28 (Xinhuanet) -- Hu Jintao, state president and general secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Central Committee, has called for upholding the great banner of Marxist Theory, to agglomerate the whole Party and the whole people to strive for the lofty ideal and goal.

Hu made the call Wednesday, while meeting with the participants of a central working conference on the implementation of the project of studying and building Marxist Theory. Li Changchun, a member of the Standing Committee of the CPC Central Committee Political Bureau, was present during the meeting.

Hu termed the conference a very important one, saying that it is of great significance for the promotion of studying and building Marxist Theory.

New changes have occurred in all fields in the world and China is also facing new tasks, situations and problems, according to Hu. The Central Authorities have decided to launch the project of studying and building Marxist Theory as the country is facing new tasks, situations and problems in reform and development, while the whole world has witnessed a series of new changes, contradictions and problems in all fields.

Hu spoke highly of ideological workers in China who have contributed to studying major theoretical and practical issues, with Marxism-Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory, and the important thought of "Three Represents" as the guidance.

He urged them to further emancipate their thinking, seek truth from facts, keep pace with the changes of the times, and make new, greater contributions to the development of Marxism in China and to building an overall well-off society and opening up a new situation for the socialist cause with China's own characteristics.

The conference was convened on April 27-28. Li Changchun addressed the conference and urged the participants to study Hu's important speech, saying that Hu's speech is of great importance for stepping up the study and building of Marxist Theory.

Greater efforts should be made in the translation and study of classic works of Marxism and publishing textbooks that could completely reflect the philosophy of Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory and the important thought of the "Three Represents". Enditem

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-04/...ent_1446054.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-04/29/content_1446054.htm)


I am unsure how our country would run given the entices of globalization and an opening market, now.... I am indeed naively over-joyced by this piece of news from Gen.Sec Hu, but I am also unsure how the ideals of the leftist ideololgies can work given their increasing capitalist countenance and actual doings.

but certainly other comrades might have a different view maybe?

and how do you think this new emphais on communist ideologies can be "REALIZED" admist its operating of a capitalist market?

cheers,

FB.

[JohnTheMarxist]

I think they are creeping leftward under new leadership. In the USA today they had an article that the entire Red Army has begun reading thecommunist manifesto once again.

[Ian]

Don't get ahead of yourselves, I can smell another betrayal in a few months.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:30 PM
Don't get ahead of yourselves, I can smell another betrayal in a few months.
yes, i m pretty cautious of that.
Fingers-crossed. :huh:

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:16 PM
I think they are creeping leftward under new leadership. In the USA today they had an article that the entire Red Army has begun reading thecommunist manifesto once again.
May i have the link of it, if u have it. :P

thanks in advance... :)

[Guerrilla22]

They need to do more than actually read, they need to get back to actually practicing the Marxist-Maoist principles on which the current government was founded on and stop going lax when it comes to ideology for the sake of not complicating trade.

[h&s]

I suspect that this is just a propaganda ploy to make their people believe that they are communist.
Just two weeks ago the Chinese have let British American Tobbacco to produce and sell fags in China, the first foreign company to do so since the revolution. Now even though they made Chairman Mao's favorite cigarettes, that is a capitalist thing to do, and it shows their true face.

[Yazman]

Haha, they're full of crap if they are praising Deng Xiaoping!

[regalshi]

:P
i am a chinese from PRC.
we are still a communism country.But actually we don't care about it.
we are in progress for democracy, free speech, news freedom,economy development, military build-up, peaceful rising.
Maxism or not dosen't matter, prosperity and high life quality are most importent.
Am i right?

[The idealist]

I agree. My only concern is about what political rout is used to acheive it. Communisme is undeniably the best, but only if the morals of communisme are followed as well. We all know what has happened when it was not.

Compromising is not always a good idea, as it can make the aforementioned morals negotiable. And when morals are bent, nobody knows where they stand.

Perhaps the best idea is to support Jintao's idea whilst retaining a bit of skepticisme. I am sure we are all for, not against, democracy, free speech, freedom of press and economic development


Don't get ahead of yourselves, I can smell another betrayal in a few months.

No wonder Communisme hasn't thrived. If every communist's reaction to this stuff is to bluntly brush it aside without proper thought, Jintao must be having a hard time. :unsure:

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 03:00 PM
:P
i am a chinese from PRC.
we are still a communism country.But actually we don't care about it.
we are in progress for democracy, free speech, news freedom,economy development, military build-up, peaceful rising.
Maxism or not dosen't matter, prosperity and high life quality are most importent.
Am i right?
How you can "still be a communist country" without ever having been a "Communist country" is beyond my logical capabilities.

China is going back to capitalism (or rather, "to" capitalism, as it "skipped"), but this should have been expected from the get-go.

[Never Forget, Never Surrender]

If you think China's in any way socialist, communist, even leftist, you're shutting your eyes and marveling at the view. I always thought you had to be at least a workers state to be socialist; not keep your industrial workers in LITERAL wage slavery.

Report on the working class in China (http://www.dissentmagazine.com)

[wet blanket]

China is in dire need of reform/revolution to stomp out the beginnings of capitalism and deep rooted corruption. The very idea that their party has the gall to call themselves communist sickens me.

They are nothing but bourgeois swine perverting Marx's name.



Maxism or not dosen't matter, prosperity and high life quality are most importent.
Am i right?

You are wrong.
Worker solidarity, democracy, and liberty are what matters. Just remember at what cost your 'high quality life' comes. You chinese bourgeois are riding on the backs of your poor farmers and factory workers, it's only a matter of time before you have to face the consequences of your government's decisions.

[Salvador Allende]

China's Socialism as a whole died when Deng Xiaoping became the top man in China. Today China is capitalist and anyone who thinks they are still socialist needs to look back earlier this year where they passed a law defending privatisation.

[antieverything]

Anyone who has the audacity to criticize China's reform process--a process that lifted more people out of dire poverty than any other period in human history and is responsible for almost all improvement in world living standard statistics in the last several decades--simply because they feel it isn't "Marxist" enough is a fool who obviously cares more about ideology than human life.

End of story! :angry:

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 03:31 AM
Anyone who has the audacity to criticize China's reform process--a process that lifted more people out of dire poverty than any other period in human history and is responsible for almost all improvement in world living standard statistics in the last several decades--simply because they feel it isn't "Marxist" enough is a fool who obviously cares more about ideology than human life.

End of story! :angry:
:rolleyes: Their reform process is corrupt and shortsighted. Had they put their massive resources toward satisfying the basic needs of their people and restructured their economic planning process to help satisfy those needs more efficiently, perhaps they'd be better off as a whole.

Your reasoning, that because the privatization has improved the lives of some and therefore is sacred from criticism, is fucking ridiculous. China isn't improving... while the living standards of the petty bourgeois in the east continues to improve, their labor continues to be exploited by western businesses to make useless consumer goods and the entire western portion(the majority) of the country is a backwards mess.

[Salvador Allende]

I'm sorry, but output under Mao in steel production went up 750% in 7 years. Mao raised the standard of living in extreme fashion. Now there is a rising wealth gap and the people who helped the movement in the first place are at the bottom.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 1 2004, 12:40 PM
I'm sorry, but output under Mao in steel production went up 750% in 7 years. Mao raised the standard of living in extreme fashion. Now there is a rising wealth gap and the people who helped the movement in the first place are at the bottom.
I like Mao too, but the thing u just mentioned is one of the mis-managments he had in his time.
Backyard-furnace-steel-making...... country-wide! 750% in 7 years!
but togther with the natural disaster of famine, millions were dead.

[rahul]

"is mao a contravarcy in china?"

[Never Forget, Never Surrender]

The U.S.A put out amazing numbers when it industrialized too. Does it mean we applaud them? The state of the working class in China is still deplorable. How can we call them socialist?

[antieverything]

Your reasoning, that because the privatization has improved the lives of some and therefore is sacred from criticism, is fucking ridiculous.
Improved the lives of some? Talk about an understatement! How bout "eliminated visible starvation" or "lifted more out of dire poverty than any other period in human history"?


China isn't improving...
That isn't true at all...and it certainly isn't true for the decades following Mao! Living standards have SKYROCKETED in every region of China though they have certainly gone up more in the coastal, industrial regions.


I'm sorry, but output under Mao in steel production went up 750% in 7 years. Mao raised the standard of living in extreme fashion. Now there is a rising wealth gap and the people who helped the movement in the first place are at the bottom.
Oh, forgive me...I forgot about the Great Leap Forward being a huge success...oh, wait. MILLIONS DIED!!!

Sheesh...you just keep proving to me that you care more about ideology than human life. That is pretty fucking sick, don't you think?

[MiniOswald]

hes right about the millions dying, its nothing short of those that died during stalins 5 year plans.

[wet blanket]

Improved the lives of some? Talk about an understatement! How bout "eliminated visible starvation" or "lifted more out of dire poverty than any other period in human history"?

Way to miss the entire point of what I said. Stop repeating yourself and go back and read the reply.

[antieverything]

How did I miss the point? Please tell me! If your point was that inequality is the problem I would certainly agree. But by the same logic you would have to claim that we would all be better of if industrialization had never happened anywhere in the world. Of course, by saying that you would be wrong, as Marx and Engels would point out.

Ask a Chinese peasant if they are angry about the reform process...I think they would look at you as if you were crazy and point to the refrigerator, television, or radio they didn't have before and wouldn't have had at all if Mao's folks still had control. They may also point out the fact that they aren't starving...gotta give 'em points for that!

[redstar2000]

Amid China's Boom, No Helping Hand for Young Qingming

PUJIA, China - His dying debt was $80. Had he been among China's urban elite, Zheng Qingming would have spent more on a trendy cellphone. But he was one of the hundreds of millions of peasants far removed from the country's new wealth. His public high school tuition alone consumed most of his family's income for a year.

He wanted to attend college. But to do so meant taking the annual college entrance examination. On the humid morning of June 4, three days before the exam, Qingming's teacher repeated a common refrain: he had to pay his last $80 in fees or he would not be allowed to take the test. Qingming stood before his classmates, his shame overtaken by anger.

"I do not have the money," he said slowly, according to several teachers who described the events that morning. But his teacher - and the system - would not budge.

A few hours later, Qingming, 18 years old, stepped in front of an approaching locomotive. The train, like China's roaring economy, was an express.

If his gruesome death was shocking, the life of this peasant boy in the rolling hills of northern Sichuan Province is repeated a millionfold across the Chinese countryside. Peasants like Qingming were once the core constituency of the Communist Party. Now, they are being left behind in the money-centered, cutthroat society that has replaced socialist China.

Full Text (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/international/01CHIN.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1091489437-F5kpyHkcAKyW2ZyE61fZRw)


...you just keep proving to me that you care more about ideology than human life. That is pretty fucking sick, don't you think? -- antieverything

Physician...heal thyself!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[wet blanket]

My entire point was that your reasoning as to why the reforms should not be criticized is ridiculous.

To quote myself:

Originally posted by Me
Your reasoning, that because the privatization has improved the lives of some and therefore is sacred from criticism, is fucking ridiculous.
I think I had made myself quite clear with that the first time. Instead of actually reading what I said, you chose to go off on a tangent on the semantics of the word "some".

...was it really that hard? I certainly don't think so.

[antieverything]

You said a bit more than that, friend, and I directly responded to you...I didn't go off on any sort of wild tangent.

The ironic thing is that you are the one who is putting words into people's mouths here: I never said China is sacred from criticism...I'll readily attack the path China is taking when right-wingers applaud it. I did say it is ridiculous to criticize it strictly because it isn't "Marxist" enough. When I said that, the entire discussion had consisted of "China has turned on the road to capitalism and has thus betrayed the revolution"...and saying this is stupid since it ignores that the revolution largely failed to improve life for the masses while the post-Mao era has succeeded amazingly.

Redstar...your point is taken but I've read tons of shit like that before. It isn't news to me. So, China sucks? Does that have anything to do with what I said before? Would the Chinese seriously undo all the reform process has done? I seriously doubt that.

[wet blanket]

I did say it is ridiculous to criticize it strictly because it isn't "Marxist" enough.
Why? Seeing as how they're called the Communist party, I'd say that criticizing them for not being Marxist enough would be warranted.

[antieverything]

...please...you're just flailing in the dark now.

:lol:

I repeat myself...to criticize China's reform process because it isn't what Mao would have done is stupid!

What the party calls itself isn't relevant to the discussion of whether reform is a good thing or a bad thing overall. Could they have done better? Yes, but not much better! Of course, things now are going sour, fast. But that doesn't change the fact that trying to criticize the PRC because it isn't Maoist is tantamount to saying you would rather the Chinese people be much worse off today simply so the party could claim ideological purity!

[wet blanket]

Of course, things now are going sour, fast.
Perhaps they should have been more Marxist. :P


trying to criticize the PRC because it isn't Maoist is tantamount to saying you would rather the Chinese people be much worse off today simply so the party could claim ideological purity!
You're assuming that they would be worse off had the party remained ideologically pure. I don't think that would have been the case, as I said earlier, had they focused on the proletariat revolution and socialism instead of these short-sighted bourgeois reforms. Seems like a valid criticism to me.

[antieverything]

Well, take it from me...had they continued on the disasterous Maoist course, things would NOT be better today.

[wet blanket]

We'll never know. ;)

[1949]

http://rwor.org/a/1248/mao_china_setting_record_straight.htm

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=143

http://rwor.org/a/china/revolt.htm

I would write something if I wasn't feeling lazy today. :ph34r:

[regalshi]

[QUOTE]You chinese bourgeois are riding on the backs of your poor farmers and factory workers, it's only a matter of time before you have to face the consequences of your government's decisions.

Sorry, what you said is not true. The truth is workers and farmers in china enjoy great life quality inprovement. maybe you don't know how poor we are before the opening and reform,before reform we even have not enough food to eat, we have only 1kg meat quota every month evry adult. But now we feel boring to eat meat.
Before reform, few family have TV set, fewer family have refrigerator or air conditioner.
But now evry family have at least one colour TV, i have 3 colour TV sets.
evry family have refrigerator and air conditioner.
What a huge change after the reform.
If maxism just lead people to poverty, then why we insist on it?

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 12:48 PM
[QUOTE]You chinese bourgeois are riding on the backs of your poor farmers and factory workers, it's only a matter of time before you have to face the consequences of your government's decisions.

Sorry, what you said is not true. The truth is workers and farmers in china enjoy great life quality inprovement. maybe you don't know how poor we are before the opening and reform,before reform we even have not enough food to eat, we have only 1kg meat quota every month evry adult. But now we feel boring to eat meat.
Before reform, few family have TV set, fewer family have refrigerator or air conditioner.
But now evry family have at least one colour TV, i have 3 colour TV sets.
evry family have refrigerator and air conditioner.
What a huge change after the reform.
If maxism just lead people to poverty, then why we insist on it?
:rolleyes: Wow, useless consumer electronics... what a great way to measure the well being of a nation as a whole. You know what, that stuff doesn't concern me in the slightest. While many have experienced a boost in living conditions, many more still suffer. Take a little field trip to the west and see for yourself, take a look at how happy your rural farmers are. After that, why not tour a factory where the local union officials have been paid off and see how many smiling faces you can count.

Just a tip, lil buddy, why not read a little more on marxism before insisting that it 'just leads people to poverty'. The TRUTH is that your government is a corrupt mess that will tell you whatever bullshit it needs to in order to get you to shut up and obey. The Chinese labor situation is a disaster and the majority of your people live in absolute poverty.

[antieverything]

Being a smart ass makes you no less ignorant.

[wet blanket]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 04:08 AM
Being a smart ass makes you no less ignorant.
You know what, not once have I said that these reforms have done "no good at all". Nor have I said anything like "absolutely nobody has benefited from these reforms", yet you keep repeating the same banal bullshit over and over and over and over... it's becoming quite clear that you have absolutely nothing to say other than "Gee whiz the status quo is good enough for me, better not criticize anything." Well, it's not good enough for me and I am going to criticize it all I want. If that makes me ignorant, so be it.

P.S. you want to see smartass?

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/7867/china2.jpg

THAT'S being a smartass

[regalshi]

Take a little field trip to the west and see for yourself, take a look at how happy your rural farmers are. After that, why not tour a factory where the local union officials have been paid off and see how many smiling faces you can count.

Just a tip, lil buddy, why not read a little more on marxism before insisting that it 'just leads people to poverty'. The TRUTH is that your government is a corrupt mess that will tell you whatever bullshit it needs to in order to get you to shut up and obey. The Chinese labor situation is a disaster and the majority of your people live in absolute poverty.
[/QUOTE]

it is true there are still lots of people in china very poor,but much better than before.
West German -capitalism rich
East German--marxism poor

South korea-capitalism rich
North Korea--marxism poor

Taiwan of china-capitalism rich
China mainland--marxism poor

Are all these great difference truth?if you deny it ,then nothing is truth.
why all these happen ?According to you logic , maybe East German,
North Korea,China mainland govrnment are all corrupt mess?
Then marxism must be the root cause to foster corruption.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 03:00 PM
:P
i am a chinese from PRC.
we are still a communism country.But actually we don't care about it.
we are in progress for democracy, free speech, news freedom,economy development, military build-up, peaceful rising.
Maxism or not dosen't matter, prosperity and high life quality are most importent.
Am i right?
Wrong because adherence to Marxist ideology sexures prosperity and a high quality of life. The Chinese government says that capitalism will secure these things, of course this is not true and many Chinese will stay poor and repressed for years.

You use democracy, free speech and press freedom in the bourgeois sense. These things will become free for the rich but closed to the poor. There will be no universal freedom to all people whilst a class system exists. Evidently, you have not studied the works that your country claims to base social system on.

[Saint-Just]

I'm sorry, but output under Mao in steel production went up 750% in 7 years. Mao raised the standard of living in extreme fashion. Now there is a rising wealth gap and the people who helped the movement in the first place are at the bottom.


Oh, forgive me...I forgot about the Great Leap Forward being a huge success...oh, wait. MILLIONS DIED!!!

Sheesh...you just keep proving to me that you care more about ideology than human life. That is pretty fucking sick, don't you think?

The GLF lasted for around 2 years. And, despite the GLF steel production did increase greatly within 7 years. However, that was largely not down to Mao since following the GLF Mao lost control of the economy since it had been a failure. The ideological machinations of human society determine the nature and existence of human life. An ideological goal can be less important than human life where the goal would ultimately extinguish/damaged more lives than it saved/improved. However, ideology had little to do with the failings of the GLF; it was economic mismanagement and it occured through people with extensive knowledge of economics.

[antieverything]

it was economic mismanagement and it occured through people with extensive knowledge of economics.
The GLF was absolutely dripping with ideology and it was the same ideology that Mao held. Full throttle towards heavy industry? How much more Marxist can you get? They gave no thought to demand, only to industrialization. People with "extensive knowledge of economics" tend to still be idiots, especially when they are blinded by ideology. The GLF is one example, another would be Chile's disasterous free-market "economic miracle" under Pinochet. All the designers had "extensive knowledge of economics" but they were still idealogues.


Wrong because adherence to Marxist ideology sexures prosperity and a high quality of life.
Oh? :huh:

Well, if you call Leninism and Maoism "Marxism" then you could certainly say it sexures a fast pace of industrialization but after that it would be a different story since the incentives tend to be too intangable...or so the story goes.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 03:13 PM
The GLF was absolutely dripping with ideology and it was the same ideology that Mao held. Full throttle towards heavy industry? How much more Marxist can you get? They gave no thought to demand, only to industrialization. People with "extensive knowledge of economics" tend to still be idiots, especially when they are blinded by ideology. The GLF is one example, another would be Chile's disasterous free-market "economic miracle" under Pinochet. All the designers had "extensive knowledge of economics" but they were still idealogues.




Well, if you call Leninism and Maoism "Marxism" then you could certainly say it sexures a fast pace of industrialization but after that it would be a different story since the incentives tend to be too intangable...or so the story goes.
In what way did the GLF fail due to no thought being given to demand? It is possible to rapidly industrialise without people starving, obviously in China they were wrong on how fast they could industrialise. Nevertheless, the GLF went well for a the first year and began to fail when the terrible two years of droughts and floods began. The situation was exacerbated because many peasants were spending too much time producing steel in their backyard furnaces instead of working in the fields.

What do you mean by the incentives tend to be too intangible? In socialism the nature of man is transformed. He ceases to be selfish and greedy. He/she considers the needs of the whole of society and recognises him/herself as part of a community. Throughout history, the way in which people behave has altered accrording to their material conditions. In socialism it will develop in the manner I have described above.

[Shane]

China is a state than when you look at it, you sigh and think what COULD have been.

such a fucking shame

[PRC-UTE]

What a thought! The "Red" Army will begin reading the Communist Manifesto!

Typical Mickey-Maoism.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 09:36 AM
What a thought! The "Red" Army will begin reading the Communist Manifesto!

Typical Mickey-Maoism.
Personally, whether it is superficial or not, i think it is a good gesture to show the party's self-inflection on its socialist ideals. (although the situation isn't optimistic ).


Mickey-Maoism
So, any constructive suggestions/opinions besides this? :D

[PRC-UTE]

Don't you find it absurdly funny that the Red Army will just now begin reading the Communist Manifesto??

I'd like to see what translation they recieve, because my copy doesn't mention anything even vaguely resembling or justifying Mickey-Maoism.