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The Sloth
25th July 2004, 16:19
I will be adding more and more to this as time goes on...I hope to get in about 50 points and further elaborate on the ones I already have.

Is this worthy of being made a sticky?




A Communist Debater's Guide


This is a no-bullshit guide/manual for any communist that frequently finds himself in situations with rabid right-wingers. Unlike the common FAQ’s found on many different Marxist sites that focus on elementary objections to communism such as “human nature” and whether the egalitarian distribution of wealth is “fair” to both the doctor and the janitor, this particular guide is for those dealing with more detailed and sophisticated issues. Everything is taken question-by-question in an attempt to penetrate the capitalist’s argument in hopes of converting irrational minds to cold, hard facts and common sense.

Most of my thank-you’s will go to…no, not God, but to the Che-Lives community for helping me sharpen my debating skills and for supplying me with the facts that were necessary for the creation of this ever-growing, comprehensive manual. Enjoy!



1. The state is fundamental to the ideas of order and democracy. A police force is necessary for insurance that this is carried out.


When I say that “the state” is both unnecessary and a hindrance to the healthy development of humankind, I’m aware of the repercussions that you “believe” will come into effect by the removal of this “state.”

“The state” is an organized bureaucracy that is erected by the upper-class. If you contest this claim, you only need to look at any government in existence today, especially ours. Most of the wealth of our country is controlled by a small minority that controls the politics and thus domestic and foreign policies that are carried out. Corporations have immense ties to both the Republicans and the Democrats, and under capitalism, with all of its “competitiveness”, all of its “self-interest” as the “rule of thumb” for economic and social development, doesn’t it make sense that the people’s interest comes directly after the interests of the upper strata? If the answer is “no”, I would ask you to explain “why.” But since there is no reasonable explanation, we’ll have to assume the assertion that “their interests come before ours” is correct. If it wasn’t, one is left to assume that there would be no hungry or homeless individual in existence; there is not only enough wealth to go around, but there is also an immense potential for surplus value that can be used to not only satisfy the universal needs, but also slowly cater to our wants until satisfaction is met. I am not saying anything you don’t already know!

“The state” is run by the upper-strata, as already mentioned, but in order to ensure the wealth of the minority, regulations and institutions are erected that cater to this fraction of the population. The myth that “working hard” can achieve “anything” (this will be discussed in detail later on) is thus established, nationalistic tendencies become present (for the purpose of always putting “our interests” above “international interests”), and class antagonisms are intensified. If class antagonisms were non-existent, would there be any need for a state, even? Why is the state here, if not to “regulate” and “control” these antagonisms to levels that are “bearable” for those with the money, and thus the power?

It is also interesting to note that the American police force in the North East started to really develop around the time of industrialization. This is because once the workers were placed in factories, pressured to work under intolerable conditions, receiving only sustenance-level wages for their labor, tensions not only became visible but were actually mounting and making the employers nervous. The police were used to keep these individuals “in check”, to hurt protestors and organizers, and, basically, to look out for the interests not of the common citizen, but of the institution that “takes care” of the police officer, the institution that “makes sure” the officer gets his paycheck…that institution, of course, is the bureaucracy, “the state”, that owns the police department, that collects taxes from the employer, and that entangles the masses in its web. It’s not complicated, however, as any reasonable person can see this easily.

In the South, for what reasons do you think the emergence of the police took place? If you answered “to uphold slavery”, you are correct. And quite the coincidence that “slaves” were considered “property” and thus, yet again, the rise of a police force is in conformity with the need to give “protection” to the property of the upper-class! The police, then, have historically been the agent of “state order”, but this “order” is actually “chaotic” since “order” means the capitalist class, “the maintaining of class antagonisms (the division of people) for the purpose of profit.”

“Well, look at what we would be doing to each other if there was no police!” Realistically, if the police was abolished today, with no change in wealth distribution or mode of production, then I can agree with that statement. But remember, criminals are bred by the society they live in. I doubt many hoodlums rob stores, or deal drugs “for the fun of it.” It’s really an act of desperation, when other options are not open, and when the individual’s prospects look hopeless. And when it is actually done “for the fun of it”, there is no one to blame but the capitalist that has been systematically glorifying the anti-intellectual gangster simply because it is profitable! Look at the music, the television shows, and the music for evidence of this “insane assertion.”

So, what can be concluded from this? If you remove the class antagonisms, if you relieve the burden of inequality and unemployment, if you refuse to glorify the gangster, then what happens? Crime is attenuated, and the need for police officers is no longer present. If property is abolished, the police will no longer be able to function on their “second job” of protecting the wealth of the upper-class. Then, “the state” begins to “wither away” as not only is there no police force to protect it, but its main function—to create “order” out of class antagonisms—is no longer necessary as class antagonisms are abolished! And finally, with the people governing themselves, existing in a kind of harmony, it is only rarely that a “social misfit” such as a “murderer”, or a “gangster” just jumps out and is simply begging for rehabilitation. In effect, we have just abolished “the state.”

If this seems “utopian”, simply think for yourself about what the “real” function of “the state” is, and carry it out to its natural conclusions. If you follow the logic all the way through, not stopping to skew reality or change the current nature of things, then the conclusion will be identical to mine, and to what the communists have been saying for some time now.



2. While our current society is materialistic, we are making towards progress of changing this reality under capitalism.


This is a lie with absolutely no substance. I guess the capitalist always sees clichés on his T.V. screen such as “money can’t buy happiness,” or “health and love, not money, is what’s important,” etc. Despite the honesty of these truisms, I hope that everyone understands that they cannot really be followed through fully. The reason for this can be explained by the nature of capitalism: since it is a system that regards “competitiveness”, “self-interest” and, ultimately, “profits” as the “highest merits,” it is only natural that human beings will be raised to want to naturally hound after money to satisfy the desires that society has created artificially (“artificially” meaning that these desires do not have to exist if the proper circumstances are present).

What is also just as important to consider is the materialism in the media, despite the aforementioned, occasional clichés. Popular media outlets such as MTV and BET air shows that show the lifestyles of those with money, air music videos with shallow lyrics featuring large pieces of jewelry, etc. while the viewers sit back and watch, caught up in a fantasy world, wishing and wondering “what it would be like” if they were “them.” Too much dreaming leads to distancing from reality, and these folks end up as slaves to the very concept of wealth. While this affects different individuals to different degrees (i.e. very few are actually “slaves” to wealth), many are, to an extent, distanced from reality and feel self-conscious about certain aspects of themselves due to what is seen on television, where the “beautiful people” are the “rulers,” the “people to be.” Again, this doesn’t affect everyone to the same degree or in the same way, but nonetheless, many will be trapped in these self-conscious wants unless they raise their consciousness.

And when their consciousness is raised, they realize that it is actually the system itself that puts them in such a dilemma, and while many are able to fight it off, many are not. To change the mentality of “wealth is the highest merit of a human being” on more than just an individual basis requires a change in the very system that not only allows such mentalities, but also fosters them. We are making absolutely no strides to correct this problem despite the popular belief. Materialistic tendencies are growing by the minute and, inversely, the intellectual and emotional attachments to world problems and other realities are decreasing.



3. Hard work will get anyone anywhere.


It is true that many individuals through very hard work, focus, and determination will be able to achieve their objectives sooner or later.

On the other hand, there are intelligent and hard-working people that spend their lives laboring but never make any more profit than to cover the basic expenses and minor luxuries.

But if you want to focus on those that reach their goals, then by all means, let us talk about them. If a person comes out of poverty and turns himself into a self-made millionaire and a serious philanthropist, then great. That’s all well and good, but remember, he was put into an unfair situation upon birth, for no other reason than birth, for no other reason than uncontrollable circumstances. This is especially true if this individual is black, another uncontrollable circumstance, but sometimes determines the person’s income, neighborhood, etc. Why is it fair that one individual must work five times as hard as another just to put himself up to the same level as a random individual from a very wealthy community, then work just as hard in order to accrue the same wealth? True, hard work may allow one to reach certain objectives, but the level/degree of this “hard work” varies by birth, not merit.

If the world was truly a meritocracy, then I can find you some unemployed individuals from the ghetto that deserve everything that the upper-class has. But due to our current realities, this is, more often than not, impossible.

To make matters worse, those that come out of poverty and enter success sometimes do nothing more than promote welfare, contributing money that can be expendable. To make serious changes in the structure of society is dependent upon smashing the status quo and current modes of production. Anything less than that are mere reforms that are both too narrow in scope and too limited in effectiveness.

4. Communists claim that capitalism promotes racism, yet I see no evidence of this.


First of all, I think it’s important to look at what racism is, where it comes from, and how different institutions tend to directly or indirectly promote it.

Racism is a defense mechanism when an individual feels threatened, especially when the ego is at stake. Since there is no scientific basis for discrepancies between races large enough to promote the idea of “inferiority” and “superiority,” it can be said that racism is also a one-hundred percent emotional and irrational reaction. When interests are threatened (“interests” such as employment, pride, the ego, etc.), and the two individuals in question are of different races, the one that ends up losing face may develop feelings against the particular race that he came in contact with. This is usually because a person is most easily identified by the face and his color; since few individuals have the “same face,” color becomes what is focused on the most since it can be attributed to a huge number of individuals.

That identification, we shall see, is the foundation of racism.

Under capitalism, inequalities exist; inequalities not only exist, but they must exist for a free-market economy to function. Since the United States has had a history of racist tendencies, it is only natural that the effects of such tendencies are handed down from generation to generation. For economic reasons, blacks mostly live in segregated communities, just like whites and Hispanics. Thus, many whites are not able to come in regular and consistent contact with other races, effectively developing an ignorance from which fear and racism stems. Since the media also has a tendency to portray non-whites as human beings with animalistic qualities (aggressive, materialistic, violent, irrational, etc.) this does not help the situation. On top of this, and unfortunately, it seems as if bourgeois blacks prefer to live in black communities, despite the fact that their incomes may surpass that even of whites. Harlem, for example, is mostly a black community of lower income. Some sections, such as Sugar Hill, however, are good neighborhoods in which upper-middle-class blacks live, out of “comfort” for being amongst “the same people.” While this is understandable, it is also irrational. What is even worse is the fact that even if you take a white person that fears blacks to Sugar Hill, he will still be fearful despite being re-assured that the community is actually rather beautiful and rather nice. The reason for this is simple: due to the mass segregation of blacks, whites, and Hispanics, some groups will feel uncomfortable around others because they do not understand anyone but their own race.

Another point is employment. In black communities, many of the stores are owned by whites that have the initial capital to run a business. When blacks go to spend their money in such places, it is important to remember that the white business owner usually does not live in that community. At the end of the day, he takes the profits and goes off to his neighborhood, brings in the cash, and thus allows it to circulate in his community rather than where he actually works. Blacks, if they are even able to find a job, are forced to work either as menial laborers or they are placed as secretaries, for example, under the supervision of the white business owner. While exceptions exist, of course, these exceptions are far and in between; they exist on an individual basis, not on a mass scale to actually create a difference.

If blacks are competing with whites for jobs, this only reinforces racism because, generally speaking, in an urban environment, the white and the black do not live in the same areas. And since a sense of ignorance is present, the fact that a Mexican, or a black, is able to get a job before the white, hear the cries of protest: “these damn immigrants are coming into my country and taking employment for themselves!” Xenophobic tendencies are, thus, also present and developed because capitalism, after all, is about competition and self-interest. When a certain person from a different race is chosen over another for employment, what the rejected individual remembers most is the “race”…but why does the rejected feel more entitled to employment, in the first place? Could it be because, in the past, he was used to being the “first pick”?

Hmmmm…

The media also plays a very important part of racism. While there aren’t direct references to “inferiority” or some other non-sense, much of the “entertainment” is aimed at blacks. However, and very unfortunately, most of this “entertainment” is anti-intellectual bullshit that promotes a gangster mentality and self-destructive, wealth-whoring lifestyles. Of course by paying attention to that garbage, the black youth will adopt the attitude they see on television simply because “that rapper made it!” or “that basketball star always gets in trouble, but is looked up to and rich.” These are seen as the “keys to success” and the “gate to happiness”…and who is there to tell the youth any different? And white adults look down on these individuals as if they are to blame. And white youth too, believing the myth that “to be a gangster is to be masculine,” to feel “more powerful,” adopt the same attitudes they observe. And who profits from this?

The capitalist owners.

You can’t expect them to “quit it” or to look for more “productive” ways to profit because, in the end, business is not always intertwined with morality and “what’s best” for the majority.



5. Blacks received civil rights and equality decades ago and now are only squandering their new-found opportunities.


Blacks received “civil rights” but simply because the right to vote exists and restaurants, public bathrooms and water fountains are no longer segregated, or schools are no longer “all white” or “all black” is meaningless.

What does “the right to vote” or “the right to go to a white school” mean in terms of combating poverty (where “poverty” is the primary reason behind the current racial situation)? “The right to go to a white school” is meaningless when your community is poor, and thus “too far” from the school, or when a host of problems distract you from your academic work, thus not giving you the ability to actually attend the school in question (or at least have a much smaller chance of attending than another person). This is especially true if it is a private institution that cannot be afforded.

The only way to change the situation is to change the methods of production. If you plan on contesting this, simply look at history in America. We have enacted multiple welfare programs, affirmative action, etc. and the economic situation is not exactly progressing, or at least progressing at an acceptable pace. In the end, “welfare programs” are too limited in scope and are mainly here to give immediate relief (which is ineffective), and, of course, to keep the socialists at bay. Black communities do not consist of a row of rats’ shacks, so when living conditions are kept “decent” or “acceptable,” then the prospect of “something better” is not an accessible reality.

There really seems to be only one solution to this problem, and it’s not a free market/“chaos” system.



6. Despite what communists believe, the majority of the capitalist world is rich and its people are satisfied. This is especially true in the United States where the people enjoy opportunity and high living standards.


It is true that under capitalism America enjoys a standard of living and wealth that is far greater than many other countries in the world.

What seems to be forgotten far too easily, however, is the fact that America’s wealth exists at the expense of other nations. In other words, our great “standard of living” and “powerful wealth” is thanks to the nations that have nothing now and have been plundered for their resources a while back.

For example, just so the American companies can promote the sale of diamonds, thus effectively forcing middle and lower-class people to be whores to the mere “idea” (not even the actual accumulation of) money, you have Africans in Sierra-Leone afflicted with malnutrition have their hands cut off, bodies crushed, etc. for the purpose of mining these diamonds. And all of this suffering for a worthless object, worthless because it has no practical use outside of technical, physical and mechanical tasks. And, of course, all of this suffering for a profit that is made off of something which is not “needed,” only “desired” simply because the upper-class deems it “desirable.”

South Americans, Indians and Africans (hmmmm, all people of color) have had their resources plundered by imperialist nations such as America, Spain and Britain. Today, markets are established in these regions from which profit is taken for the respective companies and governments of the foreign investors, although little to no profit is returned to the nations where the markets actually are. Thus, the people there are kept in a state of poverty and hopelessness, for your own wealth.

Your existence is at the expense of the world’s majority. This goes on even in the United States, where domestically, the people’s labor is exploited for a huge profit in exchange for poor wages. This shows that there are worlds inside worlds: the West lives at the expense of the Third-World, the United States upper-class lives at the expense of the middle and lower social strata, and specific communities exist at the expense of other communities. This bird’s-eye view gets closer and closer until, finally, it picks off at individual existences, how your wealth or lack of wealth affects others, and etcetera.



7. While it is true that Africa, South America and India has workers that are forced to labor under bad conditions and for poor wages, the situation there is better than before the capitalist corporations arrived. Those regions actually have employment now.


It is good to see capitalists that admit to the terrible conditions in the Third World. However, there is a misconception that since “employment was given,” all of a sudden there is justification for this kind of conditions. The “employment” was not given out of the goodness of the hearts of the capitalist owners. Rather, it was given as an investment, and investments must always yield more profit than the initial capital that was put down to run the operation. The “terrible conditions” are profitable for the capitalist owner because he can actually get away with giving poor wages. And when the nature of the employment is considered, it is obvious why the owner does not go to other regions for finding labor: he can’t! To make the most profit, one must give the minimum possible wages to the workers. In the case of Africa and South America, the “minimum wage” is that of “sustenance”; enough money is given to survive, so the African can return to work the next day and continue yielding profits for the owner.

Remember—the “employment” exists not to “improve” the livelihood of the Third World inhabitants. Rather, “employment” exists to satisfy the greedy urges of the actual owners. There is no justification for the current state of things, regardless of the fact that jobs were created.

Another important point, according to Che-Lives member perception:

"I think an important point in countering this argument - that without MNC's providing sweatshop jobs there'd be no jobs at all in these countries - is that these corporations consume the capital of the developing nations, 'crowding out' domestic industries from developing. Further, the profits they generate are expatriated back to the mother country, whereas if it was a domestic operation the profits would be reinvested in the economy and used to create more jobs. So, in effect, they are not in any way helping in the long run as they are actually hindering the development of the domestic economy, freezing it, so to speak, in the state of dependency on foreign capital. And if conditions do improve - for example, productivity increases and the workers are able to demand higher wages - the foreign capital packs up and moves on, leaving nothing to behind but its abandoned factories.

"In the end, it would be 100x better for the third worlders if they were being paid shˇt wages by domestic capitalists, because at least then they would be contributing to the development of their economy."

Hoppe
25th July 2004, 20:26
7. While it is true that Africa, South America and India has workers that are forced to labor under bad conditions and for poor wages, the situation there is better than before the capitalist corporations arrived. Those regions actually have employment now.

Have you ever spoken to a Vietnamese worker and asked him if he would rather work his ass off for Nike or go back to his farm?

Even your wacko Marx had to acknowledge that in the real world under capitalism wages increased above the level of sustenance. The same happens in those countries, regardless of your slogans.

The Sloth
25th July 2004, 21:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 08:26 PM

Have you ever spoken to a Vietnamese worker and asked him if he would rather work his ass off for Nike or go back to his farm?

Even your wacko Marx had to acknowledge that in the real world under capitalism wages increased above the level of sustenance. The same happens in those countries, regardless of your slogans.
Oh, so what do we have here, an apologist for exploitation?

The capitalists, "out of the goodness of their hearts," entered Vietnam for the purpose of improving the lives of the people? :lol:

I'm well aware of the fact that "wages have gone up," and now employment exists where there was none before, things I have all acknowledged.

In that sense, capitalism is progressive...to an extent. There comes a time when the progressive nature of this economic system simply ceases.

True, I'm sure the worker would rather stay on the Nike plantation instead of going back to the farming plantation (come to think of it, the reason for the lack of good harvests before the spread of socialism came with the fact that the landlords were given power over the majority of the good land through French authority, thus enabling the real profits to be taken away from the common citizen, into the hands of the landlord, and thus into the hands of the French...thus, your particular example is invalid, but I won't continue with these "details"...I know how much capitalists hate the idea of "facts" and "details"!).

But what I just mentioned isn't important at all...the core of my argument rests in the fact that the capitalist has no justification for "bringing employment" when, in reality, this is done for the purpose of increasing the profits of the capitalist owner. If the capitalist "brought employment" for the sake of improving the lives of the people, it would be a different story. This, of course, is simply not the case, regardless of your slogans. The worker finds himself in a horrible situation, and the profiteer seeks to capitalize on it (interesting word..."capitalize")...the profiteer doesn't even try to "hide" his intentions, that his sole desire is to make a profit rather than improve the lives of the Vietnamese. It is, interesting enough, only the domestic-capitalist-apologists such as yourself that try to "find a way" to justify the act, failing miserably.

Need I remind you about the story of one Robert Owen? He established little "utopian" communities for factory laborers, complete with education, meals and excellent treatment, while increasing his own profits ten times over the average factory owner! If the capitalists really "cared," I would find that happening in the Third World today. But alas, none of it is reality these days.

And oh yeah, by the way, next time I see a homeless person on the subways, I'll take him into my home so he'll be my servant...he'll do my chores for about thirteen hours a day in exchange for being fed. I'll kick him out of the house at the end of every day. At least I provided him two meals and employment where there was none before!

Let me just laugh at this one more time though...

The capitalists, "out of the goodness of their hearts," entered Vietnam for the purpose of improving the lives of the people?!?!?!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

LuZhiming
25th July 2004, 22:53
Originally posted by [email protected] on Jul 25 2004, 08:26 PM
Have you ever spoken to a Vietnamese worker and asked him if he would rather work his ass off for Nike or go back to his farm?

Is this a serious question? The answer is obviously yes, for cultural reasons alone. Besides, those Vietnamese farmers live a hell of a lot better than for example, those desperate Indonesians working in NIKE factories, try comparing the statistics yourself, despite Indonesia having a better economy.

Hoppe
26th July 2004, 15:55
But what I just mentioned isn't important at all...the core of my argument rests in the fact that the capitalist has no justification for "bringing employment" when, in reality, this is done for the purpose of increasing the profits of the capitalist owner

The self-interest of higher profits benefits those people as well. Your first problem is that you think economics is nothing more than a zero-sum game.

Your second problem is your strange definition of force. If I, as an entrepreneur, enter Vietnam and start up a company regardless of my intentions, am I forcing someone to work for me? I don't think so.

Your third problem has to do with you're altered definition of force. If LTV doesn't hold and I am forcing no one, how the hell can I exploit someone?

Profits are a very useful tool, learn a bit about economics and see why all economies failed in the 20th century that used planning in one way or another. Even without boycots from the evil kkkapitalist U$A.


Let me just laugh at this one more time though...

You do that, and we will laugh at another pathetic attempt to introduce socialism with the slogan "we've tried it a zillion times, but we are sure it's gonna work this time".

Professor Moneybags
26th July 2004, 16:13
What seems to be forgotten far too easily, however, is the fact that America’s wealth exists at the expense of other nations. In other words, our great “standard of living” and “powerful wealth” is thanks to the nations that have nothing now and have been plundered for their resources a while back.

They keep repeating this mantra, yet fail to explain why countries with very few natural resources, such as Japan and Switzerland, have such high standards of living relative to African countries which have vast natual resources and a very low standard of living (even though some of them are now independent).


South Americans, Indians and Africans (hmmmm, all people of color) have had their resources plundered by imperialist nations such as America, Spain and Britain.

And "Whitey" has historically enslaved and plundered by "Blacky", too. Or doesn't that count ? But then again, acknowledging that would require relinquishing membership from the club of eternal victimhood, wouldn't it ?

Professor Moneybags
26th July 2004, 16:20
The capitalists, "out of the goodness of their hearts," entered Vietnam for the purpose of improving the lives of the people? :lol:

This is interesting. You seem think anything done with self interest as the motive is instrinsically evil (regardless of the benefits), yet anything done for an (allegedly) "good cause" i.e. non-profit is automatically good (regardless of how many corpses it leaves in its wake).

I can see how you came to advocate communism.

Osman Ghazi
26th July 2004, 16:30
They keep repeating this mantra, yet fail to explain why countries with very few natural resources, such as Japan and Switzerland, have such high standards of living relative to African countries which have vast natual resources and a very low standard of living (even though some of them are now independent).


Are you ing retarded? Try 300-odd years of ing colonialism! It is blatantly obvious.


And "Whitey" has historically enslaved and plundered by "Blacky", too. Or doesn't that count ? But then again, acknowledging that would require relinquishing membership from the club of eternal victimhood, wouldn't it ?

Give me one example.


This is interesting. You seem think anything done with self interest as the motive is instrinsically evil (regardless of the benefits), yet anything done for an (allegedly) "good cause" i.e. non-profit is automatically good (regardless of how many corpses it leaves in its wake).

I can see how you came to advocate communism.

Ya, that's pretty much the gist of it.

But I mean, I could easily say:
'This is interesting. You seem think anything done with self interest as the motive is instrinsically rational (regardless of how many corpses it leaves in its wake), yet anything done for an (allegedly) "good cause" i.e. non-profit is automatically irrational (regardless of the benefits).'

I can see how you came to advocate capitalism.

Professor Moneybags
26th July 2004, 22:16
Are you ing retarded? Try 300-odd years of ing colonialism! It is blatantly obvious.

I am have difficulty recalling a "Japanese Empire" or a "Swiss Empire". Which countries did they invade and where did they collonize ?


But I mean, I could easily say:
'This is interesting. You seem think anything done with self interest as the motive is instrinsically rational (regardless of how many corpses it leaves in its wake), yet anything done for an (allegedly) "good cause" i.e. non-profit is automatically irrational (regardless of the benefits).'

I can see how you came to advocate capitalism

This falls apart when you consider that altruism has no benefits and rational self interest involves the NIF and is thus unlikely to leave corpses.

Osman Ghazi
26th July 2004, 22:35
I am have difficulty recalling a "Japanese Empire"

That is because you are stupid. You know Emperor Hirohito? You know, the one who surrendered to American military forces on board the USS Mississippi? Guess what? He was head of the Japanese ing Empire!


where did they collonize ?


You know all those islands in the Pacific that the U$ holds? They were all colonized by Japan. You know the Korean peninsula? That was also conquered by the Japanese and made into a colony. Then they took Manchuria, than all coastal China. Remember those events? It was called [/B]World War ing 2!

I don't like to toot my own horn but you just said something extremely stupid and I called you on it. As the members of PW would put it. Pwned. :lol:

As for Switzerland, well they benefitted indirectly, as did Sweden. They were able to capitalize off of the imperialism of others. Sweden did it by providing naval supplies for Britain and other European countries. The Swiss i believe were very heavy into finance technology and used that to provide a service for the other imperialist powers.

And, unlike every inch of Africa they were never conquered! They were never plundered (not entirely true, but I mean more in the long-term), and they never had their resources used for the benefit of people in other countries, as did Africa.


[b]This falls apart when you consider that altruism has no benefits

How so?


rational self interest involves the NIF and is thus unlikely to leave corpses.

Not really. It is entirely rational that if you can get away with using force, you would. Therefore, rational self-interest dictates that you do whatever is necessary to procure as much wealth as possible, even if it means killing people.

Professor Moneybags
27th July 2004, 14:02
That is because you are stupid. You know Emperor Hirohito? You know, the one who surrendered to American military forces on board the USS Mississippi? Guess what? He was head of the Japanese ing Empire!

So you're explanation of why Japan is so rich today is because of some failed empire that collapsed 60 years ago amost as soon as it started and practically bankrupted Japan in the process (which spent the next 20 years playing catch-up).


You know all those islands in the Pacific that the U$ holds? They were all colonized by Japan. You know the Korean peninsula? That was also conquered by the Japanese and made into a colony. Then they took Manchuria, than all coastal China. Remember those events? It was called World War ing 2!

Is Japan still in charge of these places ? No. So how does it manage to maintain such a high standard of living ? Britain no longer has any colonies either, so how does that maintain such a high standard of living ? It must be through something other than colonialism. Hasn't it ever occured to you that can actually be created ?


I don't like to toot my own horn but

...then you realised how difficult it was to blow anything with a vaccum in between your ears.


As for Switzerland, well they benefitted indirectly, as did Sweden. They were able to capitalize off of the imperialism of others. Sweden did it by providing naval supplies for Britain and other European countries. The Swiss i believe were very heavy into finance technology and used that to provide a service for the other imperialist powers.

That's a bit weak. And I'm sure there are more than enough parralels between that and the USSR, whose arms industry had kept it's own economy afloat, whilst selling arms to communist revolutionaries in Africa and Asia to further it's own plans for world domination.


Not really. It is entirely rational that if you can get away with using force, you would. Therefore, rational self-interest dictates that you do whatever is necessary to procure as much wealth as possible, even if it means killing people.

Reason ends where guns begin. How can one follow the non-initiation of force principle and then rationalise killing people who have not done anthing to anyone, for money ? That vacuum must be kicking in again...

LuZhiming
28th July 2004, 16:18
Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Posted on Jul 27 2004, 02:02 PM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Posted on Jul 27 2004, 02:02 PM)They keep repeating this mantra, yet fail to explain why countries with very few natural resources, such as Japan and Switzerland, have such high standards of living relative to African countries which have vast natual resources and a very low standard of living (even though some of them are now independent). [/b]

Japan isn't even debatable. It has long had an empire, since at least 1880. It benefitted heavily from the exploitation of Southeast Asian resources, which continued even after the second World War ended. That's why the treaty to end the War in Asia wasn't signed until 1951. After World War II, Japan had a program of "reparations" to its neighnors, which consisted of exporting of Japanese manufactures products using Southeast Asian resources. And it goes further too, for example the Korean War literally saved Japan's economy, which was in stagnation at the time. Japan also benefitted heavily from the militarization of the Pacific, something which the United States has a lot of blame for. Japan has been rich for a long time though, bringing it up is kind of weird. Ok, Switzerland didn't have an empire, but that's literally it, of all the developed European nations today, all of them have had empires with the one exception of Switzerland. And Osman is quite correct in pointing out that Switzerland did benefit from the Imperialism of others, it sent people all over the world, including Japan interestingly, to make money off European-conquered territories. However I don't see how bringing these countries up is particularly relivant, they both have some of the most massive state intervention in the world, that kind of turns the whole Capitalist arguement on its head.

I hope for your sake you're trying to be stupid with your question on Africa, because the question is one whose answer requires little thinking. Those African countries cannot simply develop right when they're "independent," how independent they are is a matter of debate. For one thing, many African countries are ruled by dictators. Now I don't want to make generalizations, it's a complicated story and Africa is a large place, but let's just say, quite a huge amount of these dictators have had decisive Western backing. So the dictators ruin Africa. But there's more. For example, you have the international pressure to accept IMF plans, and if those are accepted, they really devastate the countries, that's why right now the country with the most growth in Africa despite having the highets rate of HIV is Botswana, which practically kicked out the IMF, and why Libya, despite being sanctioned, has long been the most developed country in Africa(South Africa on the otherhand has only selectively accepted IMF plans, that's why it has such mixed results). Then of course, there are civil wars, which you have to take a look at history to understand, if you do that, you will realize that it's Europe who imposed this nationstate concept on Africa, with the devastating results we can see. It's important to remember that it took Europe hundreds of years of wars to finally hvae this system imposed, which had the result of causing the death of millions of people, and resulted in numerous "transfers" to make this brutal system possible. There's no reason to expect less of Africa, it may take more, considering Africa was completely conquered by those Western powers. Also, someone European countries, like France, still have ways of exploiting Africa, France has control over a lot of the currencies in those areas, and all sorts of European corporations can easily have a shot in exploiting Africa, something partly resulting from past Imperialism.


Originally posted by Professor [email protected] on Jul 27 2004, 02:02 PM
Is Japan still in charge of these places ? No. So how does it manage to maintain such a high standard of living ?

The first thing to keep in mind is that Japan has long been one of the richest countries of East Asia, so you can't look at this so simplistically. Also, the fact that Japan no longer directly control those areas doesn't mean it never benefits from them, Japanese "multinationals" do get some benefit from Southeasia still. Although that's a very small part, the fact that Japan has had years of exploitation to help it build up the country is enough to make it not so hard to continue developement. And if you're serious about your question in regards to the current Japanese economic system, massive government intervention does a lot to keep the country on its feet, Japan has some of the highest helpful state intervention in the world, it's incidentally a lot closer to "Communism" than the Soviet Union ever was, though still far off.


Originally posted by Professor [email protected] on Jul 27 2004, 02:02 PM
Britain no longer has any colonies either, so how does that maintain such a high standard of living ? It must be through something other than colonialism. Hasn't it ever occured to you that can actually be created ?

This arguement is just stupid, the benefits Britain has now, in their greatest majority are in one way or another resulted from the huge profits gained from colonialism, it isn't difficult to keep a country in a high state of developement with such advantages, especially when you still have the arms trade in place, which ensures former British colonies don't ever get independence in any meaningful sense, and it often paves the way for U.S./British corporations to move in.


Professor [email protected] on Jul 27 2004, 02:02 PM
That's a bit weak. And I'm sure there are more than enough parralels between that and the USSR, whose arms industry had kept it's own economy afloat, whilst selling arms to communist revolutionaries in Africa and Asia to further it's own plans for world domination.

Anyone who would defend the Soviet Union is a fool, its developement system for the most part was basically a much more extreme version of the systems you now have in countries Myanmar and Nepal, where some dictator forces people to work to death to carry out whatever he wants carried out, and where his "party" or whatever he chooses to call it, runs everything, including superficial labor unions and the like. But don't resort to conspiracy theories by bringing up "world domination," the Soviet Union was certainly interested in exploiting other nations, but its leaders weren't foolish enough to actually think they ever had a chance at world domination, they knew well enough that the United States would quickly crush them, and also that world domination is too costly for them anyway. Besides, the arms trade is a Capitalist institution, all you're proving is how necessary it is to bash Capitalist institutions which existed in the Soviet Union.

Hoppe
28th July 2004, 19:12
So if Japan still "benefits" from certain formerly exploited South East Asian countries, how come South Korea is so rich? Is wouldn't be possible according to your line of thought.

Or the evil imperialist empire of Singapore? New Sealand with their natural resources being sheep? Or pre annexation Hong Kong?

Osman Ghazi
28th July 2004, 20:55
So you're explanation of why Japan is so rich today is because of some failed empire that collapsed 60 years ago amost as soon as it started and practically bankrupted Japan in the process (which spent the next 20 years playing catch-up).


No, their continuing economic exploitation of South East Asia is why they are so rich. And the Empire is more than a thousand years old so don't give me that about it barely being started.


Is Japan still in charge of these places ? No. So how does it manage to maintain such a high standard of living ? Britain no longer has any colonies either, so how does that maintain such a high standard of living ? It must be through something other than colonialism. Hasn't it ever occured to you that can actually be created ?


Yes, well, the united states doesn't have any colonies either, but they still own a huge chunk of almost every country on the globe. Japan is limited mostly to the Southeast of Asia.


...then you realised how difficult it was to blow anything with a vaccum in between your ears.


That's funny. It feels like there's something there when I poke it...


That's a bit weak. And I'm sure there are more than enough parralels between that and the USSR, whose arms industry had kept it's own economy afloat, whilst selling arms to communist revolutionaries in Africa and Asia to further it's own plans for world domination.


Not really. The USSR was an instigator of imperialism, thus they didn't really have to leach off of the imperialism of others.


Reason ends where guns begin. How can one follow the non-initiation of force principle and then rationalise killing people who have not done anthing to anyone, for money ? That vacuum must be kicking in again...

The real question is how can you follow the NIF and still be rational? I mean, what is so irrational about taking the wealth of others with force? Especially if you aren't at risk of being caught.

Professor Moneybags
28th July 2004, 23:23
Yes, well, the united states doesn't have any colonies either, but they still own a huge chunk of almost every country on the globe. Japan is limited mostly to the Southeast of Asia.

Such as where ?


The real question is how can you follow the NIF and still be rational?

Because rational people tend to deal with each other using voluntary trade, rather than violence.


I mean, what is so irrational about taking the wealth of others with force? Especially if you aren't at risk of being caught.

I don't think that warrants a rebuttal.

apathy maybe
29th July 2004, 06:22
The case of Switzerland has been dealt with. Singapore is basically the same (being a finance centre). By "pre annexation" Hong Kong I assume you mean prier to 1997? Or did you mean before the Opium Wars between China and Britain? If you mean the first, finance centre; the second, I don't understand what you mean.

The cases of Japan and South Korea have been explained to me as reasons why capitalism is good. Apparently it works like this; these are two countries that were exploited by the capitalists until the standard of living was too high; then all the capitalists left. Now they are capitalist countries themselves. All the capitalists then moved to other places (e.g. Indo-China), and will move to Africa when the time comes.

Also Germany and Japan had their industries devastated by WW (fucking) 2. The yanks then came and effectively colonised them. (Have a look at all those military bases still in Germany and Japan.) They (the yanks) also gave a lot of money to rebuild the factories. Which 'cause they were starting from scratch they could use the super duper modern stuff. (Which places like Britain couldn't, they had money invested in the old systems.)

New Zealand is a special case. Australia also. Australia is in the unenviable position of shipping most of its natural resources off shore. It does mean that we can buy crap cheap, but we wouldn't (won't?) survive with many mass produced goods if (when?) ships stop carting stuff around (oil running out perhaps?).

New Zealand also relies primarily on natural resources (and tourism I think). Both countries were, however, conquered by white British peoples. They came with an expectation of a high standard of living and the money to get it. The influx of southern Europeans into Australia after WW2 didn't change that expectation much at all.


(Any problems with the above? Please post a comment outlining what and why, I'll endever to read and respond.)

Hoppe
29th July 2004, 15:48
The case of Switzerland has been dealt with. Singapore is basically the same (being a finance centre). By "pre annexation" Hong Kong I assume you mean prier to 1997? Or did you mean before the Opium Wars between China and Britain? If you mean the first, finance centre; the second, I don't understand what you mean.

1997. So, because they are finance centers is doesn't count? What a load of crap. Banking makes up 15% of GPD in Switzerland, I doubt it will be higher in the other countries. All of these countries are too small too have a large army to attack other countries and force their will upon the people, so surely there must be something else which made them rich. Maybe comparative advantage, eh?


The cases of Japan and South Korea have been explained to me as reasons why capitalism is good. Apparently it works like this; these are two countries that were exploited by the capitalists until the standard of living was too high; then all the capitalists left. Now they are capitalist countries themselves. All the capitalists then moved to other places (e.g. Indo-China), and will move to Africa when the time comes.

No, the reasoning was: if Japan is only rich because it exploited countries (and according to progressive logic all poor countries are poor because of imperialist nations) in South East Asia, how come South Korea has escaped its fate of eternal poverty?


New Zealand also relies primarily on natural resources (and tourism I think). Both countries were, however, conquered by white British peoples.

Well, colonialism isn't necessarily bad is it?

Osman Ghazi
29th July 2004, 16:35
how come South Korea has escaped its fate of eternal poverty?


Lets see what the CIA has to say on this matter:


Since the early 1960s, South Korea has achieved an incredible record of growth and integration into the high-tech modern world economy. Four decades ago GDP per capita was comparable with levels in the poorer countries of Africa and Asia. Today its GDP per capita is 18 times North Korea's and equal to the lesser economies of the European Union. This success through the late 1980s was achieved by a system of close government/business ties, including directed credit, import restrictions, sponsorship of specific industries, and a strong labor effort. The government promoted the import of raw materials and technology at the expense of consumer goods and encouraged savings and investment over consumption.

My bold.

Well, whatever they used, it wasn't capitalism, at least not by your definition.

Now, Japan:


Government-industry cooperation, a strong work ethic, mastery of high technology, and a comparatively small defense allocation (1% of GDP) helped Japan advance with extraordinary rapidity to the rank of second most technologically-powerful economy in the world after the US and third-largest economy after the US and China. One notable characteristic of the economy is the working together of manufacturers, suppliers, and distributors in closely-knit groups called keiretsu. A second basic feature has been the guarantee of lifetime employment for a substantial portion of the urban labor force.

Again my bold. It is for good reason that LuZhiming calls Japan the closest thing the world has seen to communism.

Again, Japan's growth doesn't seem to stem from capitalism.

Taiwan:


Taiwan has a dynamic capitalist economy with gradually decreasing guidance of investment and foreign trade by government authorities. In keeping with this trend, some large government-owned banks and industrial firms are being privatized. Exports have provided the primary impetus for industrialization. The trade surplus is substantial, and foreign reserves are the world's third largest.

This is far from conclusive but I assume that the section I bolded indicates that the growth they did achieve was under heavy government control. Again, not capitalism.

Hoppe
29th July 2004, 16:53
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 29 2004, 04:35 PM

Lets see what the CIA has to say on this matter:



My bold.

Well, whatever they used, it wasn't capitalism, at least not by your definition.

Now, Japan:



Again my bold. It is for good reason that LuZhiming calls Japan the closest thing the world has seen to communism.

Again, Japan's growth doesn't seem to stem from capitalism.

Taiwan:



This is far from conclusive but I assume that the section I bolded indicates that the growth they did achieve was under heavy government control. Again, not capitalism.
Aha, so according to you and your source, Japan is so rich because of communist imperialism.........

The same thing happening in South Korea happens in the US as well, is the US socialist now?

Amazing how your logic works.

Osman Ghazi
29th July 2004, 19:18
Aha, so according to you and your source, Japan is so rich because of communist imperialism.........


Yes, that about sums it up. :huh:

But seriously, if you want to twist my words and jump to stupid conclusions, go right ahead. It doesn't bother me a bit.


The same thing happening in South Korea happens in the US as well,

What 'thing' is happening in South Korea?

[/QUOTE]the US socialist now?



Actually, sort of, yes. They do have a 'mixed' system though they are more capitalist than other nations.

Amazing how your logic works. [QUOTE]

Truly.

LuZhiming
30th July 2004, 18:36
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 29 2004, 04:35 PM

Lets see what the CIA has to say on this matter:



My bold.

Well, whatever they used, it wasn't capitalism, at least not by your definition.

Now, Japan:



Again my bold. It is for good reason that LuZhiming calls Japan the closest thing the world has seen to communism.

Again, Japan's growth doesn't seem to stem from capitalism.

Taiwan:



This is far from conclusive but I assume that the section I bolded indicates that the growth they did achieve was under heavy government control. Again, not capitalism.
That part on South Korea is actually an understatement. In the 80s, the period of this massive growth, South Korea actually had the death penalty for capital flight. The only time South Korea accepted the so-called "liberalization" programs that have been implemented all around the world was in the 90s, as did Thailand, something which had a lot to do with the Asian Financial Crisis later on(Take note that Taiwan was not affected by this, because it rejected the liberalization programs).

Hoppe
31st July 2004, 15:26
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 29 2004, 07:18 PM

Yes, that about sums it up. :huh:

But seriously, if you want to twist my words and jump to stupid conclusions, go right ahead. It doesn't bother me a bit.


Read your previous posts again. You basically said that Japanese wealth came from exploitation of Asian countries. Furthermore in the case of Japan you said "Japan is the closest thing to communism........". Logically follows that communism (or socialism) is the cause for the exploitation.

I don't understand why capitalism is so evil. According to this logic you are following the wrong path.

PS. and please no stupid comments on cooperation.

Osman Ghazi
31st July 2004, 15:55
You basically said that Japanese wealth came from exploitation of Asian countries.

Let me tell you a little bit about the Japanese. They had been wealthy by Asian standards for many a year due mostly to their intensive pirating of the Chinese coast. Because of this, wealth flowed from China to Japan. I.E. Exploitation of other countries.

Then, a few years after their Industrial Revolution (1880 or so), they decided it would be a good idea to invade Korea, which they proceeded to do without much resistance. For the next 70 years, the welath of Korea would flow to Japan, mostly in the form of raw materials for processing in Japanese factories. I.E. Exploitation.

However, once a nation becomes 'rich' it can simply substitute trade for imperialism. It is possible, through unequal trade relationships to maintain pretty much the same level of exploitation.

[/QUOTE]Furthermore in the case of Japan you said "Japan is the closest thing to communism[QUOTE]

Just because they are the closest thing to communism doesn't mean that everything they do is 'communist'. The keiretsu are really what I was referring to. Hence why I bolded the part about it when I made that comment.

RosaRL
5th August 2004, 04:36
In the spirit of this thread -- although from the Communist point of view -- I would like to share the following with you. It is the start of a series of articles that will adress many of the questions that are commonly raised.

Enjoy :)

Rosa

**********
Setting the Record Straight

Social and Economic Achievements Under Mao
Revolutionary Worker #1248, 38207, posted at http://rwor.org

The rulers constantly bombard us with the message that "communism is dead," that it hasn't worked and cannot work, and that revolutions in power lead to tyranny. One aspect of their ideological crusade is to systematically distort the revolutionary experiences of the Soviet Union and China, especially the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. And the lies and slanders they put out often have the veneer of factuality.

The RCP has initiated a project to Set the Record Straight . Its aim is to bring out the truth of these revolutions--their great achievements and victories, along with their mistakes and shortcomings--and to bring forward the works and insights of Bob Avakian in summing up these experiences and pointing to lessons for humanity today. The campaign will involve research, writing, debates, and outreach. It will focus on colleges and universities. We invite all who are interested to take part.

The first effort of this project is a sharp Q&A response to the charges and distortions of the bourgeoisie: Everything You've Been Told About Communism Is Wrong: Frequently Asked Questions About Socialism, Communism, and the Cultural Revolution. An excerpt follows:

Didn't the Maoist revolution in China promise benefits but cause needless violence and create new suffering for people?

China's socialist revolution of 1949-76 resulted in a vast improvement in life for the Chinese people. Between 1949 and 1975, life expectancy in socialist China more than doubled, from about 32 to 65 years. By the early 1970s, infant mortality rates in Shanghai were lower than in New York City!1 All this reveals a profound reduction in the violence of everyday life. The extent of literacy swelled in the span of one generation--from about 15 percent in 1949 to some 80 to 90 percent in the mid-1970s.2

Let's go a bit more deeply into the profound difference socialism made to most people. Before the revolution came to power in 1949, China had been dominated by foreign imperialist powers. By practically all available measures, the economy was near the bottom of the world development scale. It had little industry. Agriculture was brutal serfdom. China had the most ruinous inflation in modern world history. It had a vast criminal underworld of gangsters and secret societies, and almost 90 million opium addicts. For women, it was a living hell: foot binding, arranged marriages, and child brides were widespread social practices. Prostitution was rampant in the cities.

These kinds of social evils and the extreme polarization of wealth that existed before 1949 were eradicated by the revolution: through the establishment of proletarian state power and the creation of a just social and economic order that unleashed the masses of people and served their interests.

Only a revolution could, and did, uproot the feudal economic system in the countryside. The land reform and repudiation of peasant debt carried out under the leadership of the Communist Party in the late 1940s and early 1950s represented the most massive expropriation and redistribution of wealth from rich to poor in world history.3

The 1950 Marriage Law of revolutionary China established marriage by mutual consent, right to divorce, and outlawed the sale of children and infanticide. A new women's movement, larger and more sweeping in vision than any in history, set out to break down the subordinating division of labor between men and women and to break down the walls of domestic life.4

But I've read that the economy was a disaster under Mao.

You've been lied to. In reality, China's industrial economy under Mao grew impressively--at an average rate of 10 percent per year, even during the Cultural Revolution. China, the former "sick man of Asia," transformed itself into a major industrial power in the quarter century between 1949 and 1976--a rate of development comparable only to the greatest surges of growth in history.5 And it achieved this without relying on exploitation or foreign assistance, and in the face of a hostile international environment.

Agriculture grew by some 3 percent a year, slightly exceeding population growth. By 1970, the problem of adequately feeding China's population had been solved. This was accomplished through integrated economic planning, a system of collective agriculture that promoted grass-roots mobilization, flood control, steady investment in rural infrastructure, and the equitable distribution of food to peasants and rationing of essential foods so that all people were guaranteed their minimal requirements.6 This was a radical break with China's past in which floods, droughts, and feudal oppression caused routine mass starvation--a condition common today in many Third World countries. And keep in mind that the amount of arable (farmable) land in China is only 70 percent of that in the U.S.-- but had to provide for four times as many people.

China under Mao accomplished what the U.S. has never done. It established a system of universal health care. Health services were provided free or at low cost, and the health system was guided by the principles of cooperation and egalitarianism. Maoist China integrated Western and traditional medicine. Some 1.3 million peasants were trained as health care providers ("barefoot doctors") to meet basic health needs in the countryside.7

To conclude.

Not only is the real record of Maoist China light years apart from what you've been told.

It is also completely different from the polarized and sweatshop-ridden China of today, which has nothing in common with socialism or Mao.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References
1Penny Kane, The Second Billion (New York: Penguin, 1987), chapter 5; Ruth and Victor Sidel, Serve the People: Observations on Medicine in the People's Republic of China (New York: Josiah Macy, Jr. Foundation, 1973), pp. 255-66.



2 Ruth Gamberg, Red and Expert (New York: Schoken, 1977), p. 41.



3 William Hinton, "The Importance of Land Reform in the Reconstruction Of China," Monthly Review , July/August 1998, p. 148.



4See C. Broyelle, Women's Liberation in China (Sussex: Harvester Press, 1977) and Elisabeth Croll, Feminism and Socialism in China (New York: Schoken, 1980).



5 See S. Ishikawa, "China's Economic Growth Since 1949," China Quarterly , June 1983, Table 1; Raymond Lotta, "The Theory and Practice of Maoist Planning," in Raymond Lotta, ed., Maoist Economics and the Revolutionary Road to Communism (New York: Banner, 1994); Carl Riskin, "Judging Economic Development: The Case of China," Economic and Political Weekly , 8 October 1977.


6See Harry Harding, China's Second Revolution: Reform After Mao (Washington, D.C.: Brookings, 1987), p. 30; Robert F. Dernberger, ed., China's Development Experience in Comparative Perspective (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1980), chapters 3 and 9; Jan Prybyla, The Chinese Economy (Columbia: University of South Carolina Press, 1978), chapter 3; and Mobo C.F. Gao, Gao Village: Rural Life in Modern China (Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1999). In speaking of agricultural performance in the Third World, agronomist and Nobel Prize winner Norman Borlaug observed: "China is the one country which has solved its food problems." Cited in Han Suyin, Wind in the Tower (Boston: Little, Brown, 1976), p. 24.


7See Teh-wei Hu, "Health Care Services in China's Economic Development," in Robert F. Dernberger, ed., China's Development Experience.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article is posted in English and Spanish on Revolutionary Worker Online
http://rwor.org
Write: Box 3486, Merchandise Mart, Chicago, IL 60654
Phone: 773-227-4066 Fax: 773-227-4497

redstar2000
5th August 2004, 16:44
What about that "great famine", Rosa?

http://www.intelmessages.org/China/famine.html

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

RosaRL
5th August 2004, 17:16
The following was part of the discussion from 2changetheworld.info and was also part of an exchange on LBO.. Raymond Lotta here is adressing some questions related to what you raised.

REPLY TO DENNIS ROBERT REDMOND
A) Dennis writes: “The real statistics point to strong growth during China’s reformist periods (e.g., 1949-56, 1962-65, and 1978-present), and stagnation or near-implosion during the Great Leap and the Cultural Revolution.”

First, on the “real statistics.”

One can go back to the Joint Economic Committee compendium of analyses of 1975, “China: A Reassessment of the Economy,” to CIA estimates of the time, and countless other studies of the period that present data and analysis acknowledging substantial economic growth and transformation. As for the dependability of Chinese data during the Mao years, Western scholars like Alexander Eckstein, examining agricultural statistics, have argued for their trustworthiness, and even the anti-Mao “reform” leadership that pillories the Mao polices acknowledges the basic reliability of the data.

On Performance during the Cultural Revolution years.

I have constructed various tables in my essay “The Theory and Practice of Maoist Planning” (in Maoist Economics and the Revolutionary Road to Communism, Banner Press, 1994), that draw on Chinese and Western sources and that detail aggregate and sectoral growth, regional distribution of production capacity, distribution of budget revenues to overcome provincial inequalities, etc.

In an overview table, I utilize S. Ishikawa “China’s Economic Growth Since 1949” (China Quarterly, June 1983) for average annual rates of growth in the 1966-76 period: national income--7 percent; industrial output--11.3 percent (heavy industry at 13.6 percent, and light industry at 8.5 percent); agricultural production--3.8 percent. Except for heavy industry, the 1966-76 performance exceeds the average annual growth rates for these categories during the 1952-66 period. Clearly, industry grew far more rapidly than agriculture (about which I’ll say more in a second), but there is no evidence for “economic stagnation or near-implosion” during the Cultural Revolution.

But, still, the key questions are:

Growth for what? For the welfare and transformation of society, or the for enrichment of the few?

What kind of growth? Lopsided and dependent, or integrated, balanced, egalitarian and self-generating?

Maoist economic growth was marked by a conscious attempt to achieve regional balance, to overcome urban-rural inequalities, and to develop base-level institutions of popular control.

The fact that Taiwan or Indonesia might have spurts, or even extended periods, of high GNP growth is hardly a measure of the quality and direction of growth, of social welfare, or of economic rationality. Having said that, a number of studies, such as Christopher Howe, China’s Economy (Basic: 1978) indicate that China’s aggregate rate of GDP growth during the 1952-75 period was exceeded for comparable periods only by Japan and the Soviet Union in modern times.

Yes, during some of the most acute phases of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, growth rates declined in industry and agriculture.

But this was very much related to the fact that workers and peasants were engaged in mass political struggles and movements part of whose purpose was lay the basis for new waves of growth based on changed economic relations that restricted the law of value and gave fuller play to worker and peasant initiative.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B. Dennis writes: “The food problem was not solved. Per capita grain production barely kept pace with the population increase until 1978. Ordinary Chinese workers and peasants made do with extremely austere life-styles, until relatively recently.”

I think that the most outstanding fact to grasp is that through the course of the revolution, China’s historic “hunger problem” was solved! The revolution shattered a system of landlordism that had produced a countryside of vast inequalities and impoverishment, a countryside stalked by hunger and famine, and a countryside of incredible social subjugation and misery. Through policies of land reform and collectivization, all of which pivoted on peasant mobilization, the countryside was radically transformed.

Yes, statistically and overall, agricultural output slightly exceeded (or “barely kept up with” if you want to put it in that negative way) population growth in the 1949-76 period.

In my view, this does not represent a prima facie indictment of policy and performance, i.e., a picture of stagnation. It tells us very little about the enormity of the challenge before the revolution, nor the scale of its accomplishment. On the other hand, neither does it represent a trend-line with which the revolutionaries were satisfied.

China was and is an overwhelmingly agrarian society, with at least 80 percent of the population living in the countryside. Keep in mind that it has one of the lowest ratios of arable land to population in the world.

So a “grain problem” confronted the revolution, and continued to confront it, during the span of the revolutionary years: how to feed the people. As did a larger policy problem: how to generate accumulation funds in agriculture without draining and exploiting the countryside.

The planning system took agriculture as the foundation of the economy. Economic planning sought to establish mutually supportive links between agriculture and industry. Grain production was emphasized (the “key link”), at the same time that crop diversification was encouraged. The state investment plan allocated resources to industries supplying inputs to agriculture, and substantial direct state investment was made in agricultural infrastructure, like water conservancy projects. Policies of rural industrialization led to a vast network of small and medium-sized factories producing light equipment and parts, fertilizer, etc. —- raising the technical base of the countryside and the technical knowledge of the peasantry. Price and investment policies narrowed the “price scissors” between agricultural and industrial goods.

Under the system of collective ownership, peasants terraced millions of acres of hills and mountains; created a huge irrigation network; and protected land with windbreaks. The combination of collectivization leading to increased scale of production, rural farmland capital construction, and the growing use of fixed machinery led to increases of labor productivity. These kinds of policies and accomplishments were laying the basis for higher and more stable yields in the countryside.

So as I said, China’s historic “hunger problem” was indeed solved! Grain production did keep up with population growth and the supply of vegetables and other foods increased more rapidly.

As for living standards in the countryside, here an aggregate number, like per capita income, only tells part of the story. Various production expenses were shared through the collective ownership and cooperation (and thus the peasant was not left to sink or swim). The commune system provided social services, like education and health care, free or at low cost. And this was part of a new system of political power. The struggles and upheavals in the countryside had let to the development of the commune system: an institutional form that integrated administration and economy, industry and agriculture, social services, and military responsibilities.

Yes, there was an agricultural productivity problem. The question before the revolution was how to solve it on a correct foundation: in a way that promoted balanced and egalitarian growth, in a way that did not widen social and regional differences, in a way that did not open the door to capitalism.

Time ran out, so to speak: The capitalist roaders (the forces around Hua and Deng) seized power in 1976. And in the name of efficiency and productivity, the socialist countryside has been turned into a capitalist nightmare or paradise -- depending on which class you belong to. A privileged rural elite -— made up of rich commercial farmers and private entrepreneurs -— exists alongside a dependent and fragmented peasantry and hired agricultural laborers. Rural educational and health care systems have decayed or collapsed. An AIDS epidemic, female infanticide, rural clan violence, and vast inequality are integral elements of China’s new (old) countryside.

The dislocations in the countryside wrought by the grabbing of public assets by the new elite and by capitalist land reform have led to the emergence of a huge migrant-peasant population—estimates range from 100 to 150 million. Many of them are recruited into China’s burgeoning (sweatshop) export industry—working 12-15 hour work days for low wages, in unhygienic, brutal, and hazardous working conditions, resulting in thousands of deaths annually in industrial accidents and fires. It is the intensity of labor exploitation that is the hallmark of so-called “socialist market reform” in post-1976 China.
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* Dennis writes: ``Peasant-industrial autarchy isn’t socialism. It’s catch-up accumulation.”

China during the Mao years developed an integrated agricultural-industrial base. It had no foreign debt and no inflation. And it had broken the grip of imperialist domination. This was not autarchy: it was genuine socialism in a world dominated by imperialism.
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In closing...
I would just like to repeat my overall point and thesis in the essay "Socialist Planning or Market Socialism?" which we are discussing:

"I think history has shown that a revolutionary system of planning can work in a way that both meets social need and that empowers people. Put differently, socialist planning is not fundamentally a question of what planners and planning agencies do, important as that is. Rather it is a question first and foremost of developing the means and mechanisms by which society can consciously regulate social production-in the service of overall political, social, and economic objectives and on the basis of the conscious activity of the masses. The proletarian state is indispensable to this process. But things are not so simple.

"First of all, it's not possible to abolish commodity-market relations overnight. The new socialist economy will have to utilize certain aspects of these relations. For instance, distribution of some consumer goods will involve forms of commerce and exchange through money. But, at the same time, the new society has to restrict the role and influence of commodity-market relations.

"Second, there is real potential for socialist state structures to become divorced from the masses, for the socialist state to be turned into a capitalist state, and for state planning to become a tool of a new state capitalist class. But that's not an argument to abandon socialist planning in favor of the market. It's a warning to take the problem of bureaucratism and the danger of capitalist restoration seriously."


Yours in struggle for a better world,
Ray

Andrei Kuznetsov
5th August 2004, 17:28
I once talked to a comrade of mine who is a veteran of the Communist movement, and asked him some questions about the Great Leap Forward. Here is what I found out:

There are several things: first, it was a great act of courage. The Soviet revisionists under Khrushchev, who had been aiding China for many years, suddenly delivered "an offer you can't refuse." They had control over key areas of the economy. Their experts controled the blueprints for key industrial projects. And they bascially controled the Northeast of china -- Manchuria (the industrial region) was undercontrol of strong pro-Soviet elements. The Soviet stopped all aid to the Chinese, and the Soviets thought "you will have to bow to us sooner or later."

The Greap Forward was a big "fuck you" to phony-communists, and telling them "fuck you" was a big deal -- with real costs. They totally blancmange China by pulling out all their blueprints, experts, projects, loans, etc. They mobilized powerful networks of supporters with China to overthrow Mao.
Mao knew that a concerted, independent, radical industrial offensive was highly necessary- a way that could make them self-reliant and could get China's economy back on its feet. They had to assert: we can do this, we can develop our own expertise. "We can figure out how to do it," said the Chinese masses- and they did.

For example: China had not coal or petroleum. And they were told by the phony-communists and capitalists: this is death for a modern economy.
But in the Great Leap, they uncovered unknown resources of coal and petroleum by mobilizing the masses on a huge scale to find it. They developed a radical critique of Soviet economics. Mao said: lets discover ways to decentralize industry; let's find ways to proletarianize the peasantry. let's spread technical knowledge, and working class experience to the peasantry. In other words, Chairman Mao Tse-Tung was following through with the powerful words of The Communist Manifesto: "Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country." And so they began to do this, with the workers and masses in command.

With the Great Leap Forward beginning, they built small operations in the countryside -- to serve agriculture. Small shops that could make blades for plows, for example. Small machiner shops that could repair pumps also came about; and of course they began to develop local steel. They needed a lot, and did have the resources or expertise for large modern blast furnaces. Some called Mao "insane" for developing these new techniques, but how did they expect the Chinese to develop steel? Pray for it to drop out of the sky?

Now, many complain about the steel foundries. Yes, there were some problems. Namely:
A) The quality was low and they were only able to produce pig iron instead of steel, but that had some uses.
B) They underestimated how difficult the steel and iron would be to transport.
C) Much of it was useless, but keep in mind that this was an experiment and was done by people who were learning- it was a process of trial and error.

So did the furnaces lead to bad crops? No. China's agriculture went by human-pulled and animal-pulled plows. And these furnaces did devleop usable plows. There was no mechanized agriculture yet (except in a few advanced areas) -- the whole point was/is to develop agriculture and industry. Rhe furnaces did not "destroy" mechanized agriculture; the process laid the basis for Chinese peasants to be able to deal with machinery and technical things. They developed collective forms (at the Peoples Commune levels) to develop the furnaces -- and those forms were later used to set up machinery repair places etc. The Great Leap Forward did not destroy mechanization or destroy crops- on the contrary, it helped advance both!

During the Great Leap Forward, there was a huge, parallel devleopment in agriculture: the Peoples Communes. The Chinese people developed a collective form that was basically at the county level. That meant that the peasants could pool resources on a much larger scale -- develop canals and machineshops and side industries. All of this was impossible at the small-collective or family farm level; only during the Great Leap Forward did this begin to happen on a massive scale. Afterwards, they had a basis for commune machine shops, to send kids for technical traiing etc.

So the Great Leap Forward was a very risky move, and it was deeply hurt by attacks by the Soviet revisionists (as mentioned before), natural drought, and mistakes on the Chinese part (mentioned above). There was a famine, indeed, but it was not as horrific as the bourgeoisie make it out to be. Look at it this way: before the 1949, China was basically semi-permanently facing wave after wave of famine. After 1949 there was basically an end to famine. The famine of 1959 was the great exception, in a period where hunger was abolished (for the first time in Chinese history!!) The population doubled under mao and life expectancy grew by decades, if you recall the Lotta post and RW article posted above.

The socialist revolution made it possible to deal with famine in new ways. There was rationing and food sharing. Areas that had good harvests sent food to areas with bad harvests. The burden and impact of the bad harvests was softened, by all the new elements of socialism. It was new and breathtaking, and saved many lives. The Great Leap Forward had its shortcomings, yes, but the way they handled those shorcomings showed the strength and superiority of socialism over capitalism, and it is just one of the many reasons that I admire Mao Tse-Tung deeply.

Sirion
7th August 2004, 22:45
Great thread! This deserves a sticky!