socialism-> communism

[Vincent]

i am wondering, how does socialism actually progress to communism.. does the socialist government basically reform the hell out of the system and it eventually becomes the communist society?

forgive me for my ignorance.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 02:17 PM
i am wondering, how does socialism actually progress to communism..
Nobody knows. Apparently, according to the Marxists and Leninists the state will just "wither away."


does the socialist government basically reform the hell out of the system and it eventually becomes the communist society?

The Marxist-Leninist idea is that the communist party uses the state after the revolution to suppress the bourgeoisie or capitalists and creates the necessary conditions to allow the state to wither away. What that means, who can tell?


forgive me for my ignorance.

It's not ignorance. How are you supposed to know if no one tells you? Asking questions to make your mind bigger is not ignorace. Never asking the questions, that's ignorance.

[Hate Is Art]

:rolleyes:

I thought you said we weren't going to try and brain wash them Joe? Looking for another recruit to the Utopian Fantastical rambling of Anarchism??

Notice not once did he use the word state, there are plenty more ways to progress from Socialism to Communism without creation of a state.

[T_SP]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 23 2004, 04:10 PM
:rolleyes:

I thought you said we weren't going to try and brain wash them Joe? Looking for another recruit to the Utopian Fantastical rambling of Anarchism??

Notice not once did he use the word state, there are plenty more ways to progress from Socialism to Communism without creation of a state.
Then please elaborate DN, don't keep us all in the dark :D

[Karo de Perro]

Marx envisioned a social revolution going through stages
in which the proletariat gains political power and sets up
a dictatorsip by which to reorganize society,once social
justice and equality are established Marx then foresees that
the state will then melt away,this stateless society is what Marx
determines to be true communism.


One can therefore deduce that there has never existed nor can
there exist a communist state.The USSR and China were
meant to be workers states but resulted in dictatorships
of individuals who used communism as a means of self-
promotion building their states on the cult of personality,
hardship,and oppression.


Communism as conceived by Marx can therefore be seen as a
form of anarchy in that it expresses no need of a state,communism
in effect is a stateless society hence Anarchy.


While indeed socialism holds to the basic principles of Marx,Engels,Lenin,
etc,still,it promotes the socialist state as the highest means of human
advancement,and though some socialists hold to the
democratic notion of a peaceful transition of power,
there are socialists such as myself that promotes gaining
political power by any means including armed revolution.


[edit footnote] ... after posting and viewing this post,its text appears as though it issued from the barrel of a shotgun ... for whatever reason the sentences are scattered,etc and I will leave them as they are ... the post may not be of the best structural form but the points I wish to make are ... and thats what matters most.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 23 2004, 05:10 PM
I thought you said we weren't going to try and brain wash them Joe?
Them? Brainwashing? What are you talking about? I answered his question.


Looking for another recruit to the Utopian Fantastical rambling of Anarchism??

Yes...im looking for another recruit to the Utopian Fantastical rambling of Anarchism!!


Notice not once did he use the word state,

He was talking about a transitional stage. Classically that&#39;s Marxism, so I assumed (shock horror) that he was talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat, or the workers state <_<


there are plenty more ways to progress from Socialism to Communism without creation of a state

Well go on then..........

[Vincent]

as far as i can see, this melting away of socialism would take a very long time because of the nature of the changes being made. correct?

has anyone ever written on this last transitional stage that &#39;just happens&#39;? what i mean is, has anybody said &#39;no, i wont accept that socialism is as far as it is going to go&#39; and come up with a practical way of progressing into communism, instead of letting it just sit there so some power crazed dicator can take it and turn everything backwards again?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 05:23 AM
as far as i can see, this melting away of socialism would take a very long time because of the nature of the changes being made. correct?
I think most people will agree that this is the case.


what i mean is, has anybody said &#39;no, i wont accept that socialism is as far as it is going to go&#39; and come up with a practical way of progressing into communism

There have been many thinkers who have concluded that this transitional phaze is unnecessary and even counter productive. Whether it is practical is the debate. anarcists would argue that it was, while Marxist-Leninists would argue that it wasn&#39;t pratical but counter revolutionary.

This is a book written by Alexander Berkman which is a good introduction to the ideas of those who do not believe in a transitional stage.
What is Communist Anarchism? (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)

If your feeling confident after that, you cant ry reading something by Mikhail Bakunin. The language is heavy but in among his ramblings he does talk about Marxism and the withering away of the state theory.
Marxism, Freedom and the State (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bakunin/marxnfree.html)

This may be a good introduction to the dictatorship of the proletariat theory. The language may be a little complicated though.
What is the dictatorship of the proletariat (http://www.geocities.com/youth4sa/proledictatorship.html)

If you are feeling ultra brave you can try Lenin&#39;s famous book. It is quite heavy for beginners, but I would suggest trying to read it anway, it gives your brain practice to adapt to the complexity of revolutionary theory. Chapter V is dedicated to the withering away theory and the stages of communism.
State and Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/)

If I get stuck on a word when i&#39;m reading this kind of stuff I go to dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) and it usually helps. If not, ask here and I am sure someone will you help you out.