Che and God

[Nickelby]

I was just wondering, and this might sound a bit stupid but I just can't find out
Did Che believe in God?

thanks for any answers

[Hate Is Art]

I'm pretty sure his family were Roman Catholics (correct me if I'm wrong) but he was an aethist.

On his family being Catholics, I don't think they were staunch, god-fearing Christians just vaguely religious.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
im gonna do some research on that one...
but for them cats to be able to take over
Cuba with just 12 men at one point...
starving thirsty getting eaten by mosquito's.....
God or the Universe or whatever you wanna
call it played a Big role......and for Cuba to
still be a socialist anti imperialist country
after all these years......God has truely blessed Cuba.....

[andresG]

No, Che was an atheist.

[FatFreeMilk]

On his family being Catholics, I don't think they were staunch, god-fearing Christians just vaguely religious.

Yeah, his mom asked that he be excused from the religious classes when he was goin to school as a kid.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected] 22 2004, 05:39 PM
God or the Universe or whatever you wanna
call it played a Big role......and for Cuba to
still be a socialist anti imperialist country
after all these years......God has truely blessed Cuba.....
Hows about no.

[Hate Is Art]

Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected] 22 2004, 05:39 PM
peace....
im gonna do some research on that one...
but for them cats to be able to take over
Cuba with just 12 men at one point...
starving thirsty getting eaten by mosquito's.....
God or the Universe or whatever you wanna
call it played a Big role......and for Cuba to
still be a socialist anti imperialist country
after all these years......God has truely blessed Cuba.....
Sounds like some one been smoking the holy spirit.

[ShootCoward]

Yeah, I mean, isn't a huge part of being Marxist/Communist whatever, that you don't believe in anything other than what's here and things? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Personally I believe in God, and also have strong socialist ideals...now that's confused.
But yeah, Che was an atheist.

[Karo de Perro]

Who can rightly speak for Che in this regard? ... whether Che did or did not believe in God is a matter that only Che himself could answer,then again,what exactly does one imply when they speak of God? ... for to many God is nothing more than an abstract idea and isnt this what socialism itself is as well ... merely a noble idea by which to right all social wrongs? ... and by this line of reasoning could not the socialist idea itself be God?

Still,its most probable that the God implied in the inquiry of this thread denotes the notion of organized religions which conceive of a pompous zeus-like chap sittin on a cloud and flingin lighting-bolts and itching to make sonofa*****s like myself toast.

Of course the last statement I made based on the premise of all those religious bigots who criticize and condemn others through the vehicle of such a harsh and uncaring deity ... whenever a persons god hates everything and everyone which they themselves hate then its not so difficult to discern who created who!

One is deluded to think there exists a separation between church and state,for the history of the one is inescapeably the history of the other as well.

From antiquity kings recieved sanction of authority by priests acting on behalf of the tribal god,simply research the annals of kings,priests and prophets and you ll find that theirs is a shared heritage.

The power of state depends on the decree of religion.

The pope blessed the office of kings and the custom of recieving office of U.S. president is just as the coronation of British monarchs in that its a solemn religious occasin by which the newly elected president takes an oath of office by invoking the name of god.

I recall reading once,"There can be no freedom until the last king is hanged by the entrails of the last priest". ... by considering such things I think one can get a better perspective of what Che may have thought in matters of God and religion.

[Rex_20XD6]

I don't know but you sould ask Redstar.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Karo de [email protected] 23 2004, 06:46 PM
Who can rightly speak for Che in this regard? ... whether Che did or did not believe in God is a matter that only Che himself could answer,then again,what exactly does one imply when they speak of God? ... for to many God is nothing more than an abstract idea and isnt this what socialism itself is as well ... merely a noble idea by which to right all social wrongs? ... and by this line of reasoning could not the socialist idea itself be God?

Still,its most probable that the God implied in the inquiry of this thread denotes the notion of organized religions which conceive of a pompous zeus-like chap sittin on a cloud and flingin lighting-bolts and itching to make sonofa*****s like myself toast.

Of course the last statement I made based on the premise of all those religious bigots who criticize and condemn others through the vehicle of such a harsh and uncaring deity ... whenever a persons god hates everything and everyone which they themselves hate then its not so difficult to discern who created who!

One is deluded to think there exists a separation between church and state,for the history of the one is inescapeably the history of the other as well.

From antiquity kings recieved sanction of authority by priests acting on behalf of the tribal god,simply research the annals of kings,priests and prophets and you ll find that theirs is a shared heritage.

The power of state depends on the decree of religion.

The pope blessed the office of kings and the custom of recieving office of U.S. president is just as the coronation of British monarchs in that its a solemn religious occasin by which the newly elected president takes an oath of office by invoking the name of god.

I recall reading once,"There can be no freedom until the last king is hanged by the entrails of the last priest". ... by considering such things I think one can get a better perspective of what Che may have thought in matters of God and religion.
(in a south USA accent) Thats some mighty fine rhetoric you got there.

[redstar2000]

I'm not an expert on the details of Che's life, but I've never run across any credible evidence that he was any kind of believer.

It's instructive to note that some religious elements in Latin America have expropriated Che's "image" -- they circulate posters of Che wearing a crown of thorns.

This kind of cynical maneuver should give you a pretty good idea of what they are like...all by itself.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[rahul]

che really donna believed in god

[sim22]

che was an atheist, well, 1. because i read something about that in a book about him. and 2. well, if he was religious, don't you think that as his mission was really getting difficult in bolivia he would have commented at all about god helping them or something? isnt that the normal thing to do when you think your down and out and you believe in god? well, anyone who has read the bolivian diary knows that he didnt mention god. so well, i think that supports my argument too! :)

[fernando]

In the Motorcycle Diaries there is a part where some people were upset at him because he did not join the thingie (in dutch is called "Mis"...uhm ceremony) in some church

[Manos]

communism and athiesm are not a hand in hand ideology. marx has mentioned in the manifesto that he forsaw people one day forgoing such dividing ideas, but never suggested that communism must stomp out religion. also, marx didn't create the idea of communism, he simply added his own philosophical points of view on the subject that some are naive enough to take as literal instructions. sadly i think some people take his ideas to mean that all should be applied.....that is sheepish..that is treating marxism like a religion.

[Hasta Siempre Comandante]

It is obvious that Che didn't believe in the church - the catholic church is responsible, at least partly, for imperialism. With that said, the image of God and whether or not God exists can be different, depending on the person. Just because someone denounces a partucular religion or church, doesn't mean that person can't have his/her own relationship to God or whatever you want to call it. I'm not saying that Che believed in God, in his own way, there's nothing to suggest he did. But what I am saying is you are asking a question that only Che could answer.

[Latin American Socialist]

che's sister and brothers were aethists, when little they played rugby against the other kids. The teams were "The believers" and "The non-believers." When asked if he was a materialist, he replayed and said yes and asked the man if he was an imperialist.

[Oldergod]

Argentines are brought up to be roman catholics...if you meet an argentine theres a 98.9% chance hes a roman catholic...but Che was an atheist

[sim22]

i have a quote from che when he was asked about christ. i dont know what a philanthorpist is, so maybe you'll understand it better than i do!

i am niether christ or philanthropist... i am the complete opposite of a Christ... i fight with whatever arms i have at hand for what i believe in, and i try to destroy my opponent rather than letting myself be nailed to a cross or anywhere else
hmmm......he doesnt sound too keen there!!

[sim22]

i have a quote from che when he was asked about christ. i dont know what a philanthorpist is, so maybe you'll understand it better than i do!

i am niether christ or philanthropist... i am the complete opposite of a Christ... i fight with whatever arms i have at hand for what i believe in, and i try to destroy my opponent rather than letting myself be nailed to a cross or anywhere else
hmmm......he doesnt sound too keen there!!

[sim22]

i have a quote from che when he was asked about christ. i dont know what a philanthorpist is, so maybe you'll understand it better than i do!

i am niether christ or philanthropist... i am the complete opposite of a Christ... i fight with whatever arms i have at hand for what i believe in, and i try to destroy my opponent rather than letting myself be nailed to a cross or anywhere else
hmmm......he doesnt sound too keen there!!

[Nas]

If Che was a christian it would'nt really matter to me , but probably everyone in here would be like :o

[Nas]

If Che was a christian it would'nt really matter to me , but probably everyone in here would be like :o

[Nas]

If Che was a christian it would'nt really matter to me , but probably everyone in here would be like :o

[redstar2000]

Have to change the name of the board at a minimum. :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

Have to change the name of the board at a minimum. :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

Have to change the name of the board at a minimum. :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[pandora]

Actually think he believed Paulo Neruda, seeing as the that is the author his wife attests to his reading with her at night, is that a church :D the church of the holy neruda :P

[pandora]

Actually think he believed Paulo Neruda, seeing as the that is the author his wife attests to his reading with her at night, is that a church :D the church of the holy neruda :P

[pandora]

Actually think he believed Paulo Neruda, seeing as the that is the author his wife attests to his reading with her at night, is that a church :D the church of the holy neruda :P

[Rockfan]

cool
he played rugby and i play rugby mean lol

[fridabella]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 11:09 AM
In the Motorcycle Diaries there is a part where some people were upset at him because he did not join the thingie (in dutch is called "Mis"...uhm ceremony) in some church
In The Motorcycle Diaries, he refused to go to mass, and wanted nothing to do with the spiritual beliefs of the nuns in San Pablo. I think it would be pretty hard for someone to believe in a god after seeing so much desperate poverty and pain that many people suffered.

[guevara-marley]

he didn't believe in god!!yes he read the bible to his people in congo just that they don't loose theire hope to win the revolution but he and his familiy didn't believe in god...
when he was a child he and his atheistic friends always played football (or something else) against the catholic children..he was very sad that his group always lost those games...
i'm very sure that he didn't believe in god but who knows what was in his mind..

teté

[lena]

in the system of communism existed not the faith in god - for example marx said, that "the faith in god is opium for the people" - so the gouvernment is able to do everything and the people won´t recognize it,cause they are some kind of dazed...! the parents of che also didnt believed in god. when che was a kid he and his aeteist friends played soocer matches against the kids,who believed in god - and merry-proves the faithful won most of the time....!

[Spartacus2002]

Originally posted by The Arcadian [email protected] 22 2004, 04:31 PM
I'm pretty sure his family were Roman Catholics (correct me if I'm wrong) but he was an aethist.

On his family being Catholics, I don't think they were staunch, god-fearing Christians just vaguely religious.
[QUOTE]I'm pretty sure his family were Roman Catholics (correct me if I'm wrong) but he was an aethist. [QUOTE]

man the hypocrisy of the catholic church is enough to make anyone athiest, i am glad i am not a crapolic... go not catholic christians

[chebol]

Che was an atheist. This is fairly well established.
Fidel is also an atheist, but his response on the issue of religion under socialism bears some study.
Religion is the opiate of the people. This is not a value statement, it is an observation. It may become an addiction which is harmful to the functioning of an individual in society, making them believe in a number of socially unnecessary forms that harm others and create a system of exploitation. However, an opiate may be useful during times of great pain and discomfort, enabling recovery. (Of course, after this period, the individual must be weaned off the drug for their own, and others' benefit).
Revolutionaries, the most conscious in the struggle against exploitation of man by man, need, however, to be clear of mind-altering substances- LSD as much as Holy Water, in order to function as true social scientists.

Socialism is qualititatively different to Marxism. Socialism *may* be 'utopian' or idealistic, but Marxism is necessarily a scientific approach to society and it's liberation (aka "Communism"). Religion, as a concept, has no place *within* the realisation of Marxism, any more that Capitalism does. It is an inescapable reality that religion exists, but it must be removed- not necessarily by force, but by argument. This is more important when organised religion acts as an oppressive force, but, like a personal addiction, individual religion (or spirituality) must be overcome as well.

Viewed this way, not everything is wrong with religion, but next to nothing is right.

And if you want me to "believe" in God, quantify him/her/it so I can understand it. By my understanding, this has never been made scientifically possible, leading me to the conclusion that "god" is merely a byword for the processes of the Universe which are not understood. What "god" is, then, varies according to your scientific understanding of the laws of the universe are (probably in proportion to your confidence), diminishing ad infinitum. Another reason for a good secular education....

[Hannah Rush]

Nietsche is believed to have been an atheist. He wrote a parable about a hermit carrying a lantern with him in the bright daytime sun. The man entered the marketplace with his lantern and proclaimed to all, "God is dead, God is dead and we have killed him." This is supposed to have been his ultimate statement of atheism.
I don't believe it was.
To me, it seems the lantern, its light invisible in the daytime sun, represents the "light" of God. It is telling that the marketplace was chosen as the arena for the proclamation of God's demise. For, as as been often pointed out in the past, when people are intoxicated with the heady brew of self-interest, what other values need they bother themselves with?
Although the light of the lantern is there, and steady, and fulfilling its purpose, its light is unseen. Although God is as always, we have chosen to view this power and its obligations as irrelevant.
As far as I know, Che never said he was an atheist. He did speak of a "new man" of new values. He spoke of establising a value system that demanded honesty and hard work from all while it honored the needs and desires of the individual as well as the collective.
For my money, Nietsche believed in God; Che believed in God.

Hannah Rush

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Hannah Rush
As far as I know, Che never said he was an atheist. He did speak of a "new man" of new values. He spoke of establishing a value system that demanded honesty and hard work from all while it honored the needs and desires of the individual as well as the collective.

For my money...Che believed in God.

That's a very bad bet...you'd lose. :(

Neither of us are privy to everything Che ever wrote or said. But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Che "never" explicitly said "I'm an atheist!".

One of the things he did say was that "reality is Marxist".

Now, there's no "room" in Marxism for the supernatural at all; it is an entirely materialist (atheistic) outlook.

In addition, he never, to my knowledge, behaved as anything else but an atheist. He never used godbabble in any of his speeches or books, for example. He never spoke "as if" there was any "validity" to religious ideas.

As far as I know, his idea of a "new man" was based on a rational and secular arguments...and did not involve any kind of "spiritual" considerations.

All the evidence points in the direction of atheism; and I'm unaware of any reliable evidence that even hints at the possibility that he was a godsucker.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Essential Insignificance]

For my money, Nietsche believed in God; Che believed in God.

Hand over your money then; you're wrong on both accounts... in totality!

As for Che... he was asked in an interview, I can't remember the literal rudiments, i.e. the interviewers name, where it was given, etc, but I think it was given in 1962. The interviewer asked Che if he "believed in God", to which Che replied, "of course not, I'm a communist!"

Need any more "proof"?

Dare I say in reference to Nietzsche, that you have totally misinterpreted him? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nietzsche is infamous, if not legendary, although not original, for his denunciation and indeed condemnation of the "slave morality" -- which he thought was contrary to what is "real" and "actual" -- the naturalism of the human species -- the "will to power", by the preservation altruism and philanthropy; in doing so he is directly attacking Christianity, not God as such.

In Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Zarathustra, Nietzsche's spokesperson throughout the book, announces to "the herds" at the marketplace that "God is dead". Nietzsche thought that Christianity had in recent times, and this is what he meant by proclaiming "God to be dead" -- that the people had turned their backs on him, and thus that he isn't "up there" in the heavens any longer... but he doesn't literally mean this!

Now this is a metaphor; Nietzsche was an avid atheist, he incorporates it, to express that the peoples abstract, transcendence notion of "god" had died, because they had turned their backs on him, in the sense that "He" only only existed in their minds.

[tequila]

Nobody knows whether or not Che believed in God only he could answer that question but he did carry a poem around with him and it was found in his backpack after he was killed its by a Spanish poet called Leon Filipe and its like this: "Christ, I love you, not because you came down from a star but because you showed me the light. You taught me man is God, a poor God in sin like you, and he on your left on the Golgotha, the evil thief, is God too". Personally I believe in God, this is probably because I live in a Catholic ireland and went to a Catholic school but I definitely dissagree with the heirarchy of the Catholic Church that ruled my country for most of this century but died down after the 70's when people were sick of them but most of the beliefs are still alive but under the surface in Irish society today but very few people still actually go to mass or anything like that. :ph34r:

[Wiesty]

che was athiest

[Big Boss]

All I know about his beliefs is what everybody knows. The evidence points out that he was atheist but in my personal opinion, he MAYBE was Christian but in an Orthodox way. The belief in the justice for the poor and the true value that the people with limited means has is limitless in the teachings of Christ. This belief of social justice for everyone is not far from Marxism. Marx had some views that Christ had concerning the good for the people and equality in general. Let's no forget that the early Christians lived in what is called: Christian Communism. Che's views did not contradict that of Jesus. I don't know but I think that Che had his own view of what to be a Christian is.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by tequila+--> (tequila)...but he did carry a poem around with him and it was found in his backpack after he was killed; it's by a Spanish poet called Leon Filipe and it's like this: "Christ, I love you, not because you came down from a star but because you showed me the light. You taught me man is God, a poor God in sin like you, and he on your left on the Golgotha, the evil thief, is God too".[/b]

I've heard this story before.

I simply don't believe it.


Personally I believe in God; this is probably because I live in a Catholic Ireland and went to a Catholic school...

Well, you should stop that. :D

Read the arguments against Christianity in the Religion subforum in Opposing Ideologies.


Fervant Guerrilla
The evidence points out that he was atheist but in my personal opinion, he MAYBE was Christian but in an [un]Orthodox way.

Why should you have this opinion if the evidence points to the opposite conclusion?

Again, I would ask that you confine statements about the views of "Jesus" to the Religion subforum. There are many refutations of the proposition that "Jesus was a communist".

He wasn't.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[tequila]

In a biography called " Companero" it talks about a girl that Che hooks up with in Cuba who was religious. This was about the time when Che first started associating with the PSP (Popular Socialist Party). Anyway she asked him if he was also religious and he replied, "No, I cannot be religious I am a communist". This is supposed to have been the first time he actually called himself a Communist. :ph34r:

[cubalibra]

The ironic thing is that if there is a heaven and hell, Che is quite certainly in heaven, while the white American christian neocons who have caused so much suffering in this world will burn in the fiery furnaces of hell!

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 12:41 AM
The ironic thing is that if there is a heaven and hell, Che is quite certainly in heaven, while the white American christian neocons who have caused so much suffering in this world will burn in the fiery furnaces of hell!
I really dislike it when people say things like this. No disrespect to you, but when some atheist goes "I Don't believe in God/heaven/hell... but if there is a heaven or hell, so and so is there. That is the basis of Religion. Once you've "hit bottom", Religion gives you hope. People turn to it because they have nothing left. God/Heaven/Hell is not real, and it is meant to bring people reassurance/hope in times of sadness/uncertainty. Stand by your beliefs.

[which doctor]

I remeber in his book "Otra Vez" where he wrote a letter to his mother. In this letter he referred to the Almighty and his power. When I came across this I was quite puzzled.