Arent Israelis being Nazi? - RAISE YOUR ARMS IN FAVOUR OF PA

[Ho]

I believe that in this times where Israeli´s are harrassing Palestinian people the swastika could be compared to the david star.
Some people may think, 'this guy is crazy what is he saying!!!????'
But i answer to that question why r jews sloughtering Palestinians, if they are always (and its their right and obligation to do so)remembering the Holocaust???
So I believe that Jews always hide behind the Holocaust to attack and do what they want.
RAISE YOUR ARMS IN FAVOUR OF PALESTINE!!!!!

[Raztro]

*Raises Arms* weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Ho on 10:10 pm on April 23, 2002
I believe that in this times where Israeli´s are harrassing Palestinian people the swastika could be compared to the david star.
The Nazis did more than harass Jews. They killed six million of them, as well as six million other minorities and dissenters. The horrible things that the Palestinian people have gone through should not be ignored or brushed off lightly, but nowhere near twelve million Palestinians have been killed by Israelis. Also, the Magen David is worn not simply by Zionists (who can be anyone from Orthodox Jews such as Joe Lieberman to decidedly un-Jewish Televangelists like Pat Robertson), but by people who are Jews . . . whether they're Jews who support Israel or Jews that support Palestine. I can guarantee you that there are members of this board who support Palestine and wear Jewish Stars.

Quote: from Ho on 10:10 pm on April 23, 2002

Some people may think, 'this guy is crazy what is he saying!!!????'
And some others may think, "Why doesn't just say these things in any of the numerous threads that have already been created that pertain to this topic?"

Quote: from Ho on 10:10 pm on April 23, 2002

But i answer to that question why r jews sloughtering Palestinians, if they are always (and its their right and obligation to do so)remembering the Holocaust???
Once again, comparing the Holocaust and the current situation in Palestine is comparing apples and oranges.

Quote: from Ho on 10:10 pm on April 23, 2002

So I believe that Jews always hide behind the Holocaust to attack and do what they want.
I'm not hiding behind the Holocaust to "attack" you. I'll come out and say it right here: I'm "attacking" you because you're wrong, and it would have nothing to do with the Holocaust whatsoever if you hadn't brought it up in the first place.

Quote: from Ho on 10:10 pm on April 23, 2002

RAISE YOUR ARMS IN FAVOUR OF PALESTINE!!!!
Raise your arm off of that exclamation point key, my friend.

[munkey soup]

Things are definately becoming scary when a so-called leftist makes such a generalizing statement (and one hinting at anti-semitism) as "all jews hide behind the holocaust to get what they want." Nothing much else needs to be said since IWDY destroys your argument nicely.

Check yourself Ho.

[queen of diamonds]

i think the idea of comparing the Jews to Nazis completely ignores the fact that their situations are slightly different....killing other people is rarely right, but to compare the two is taking them both very superficially

[Reuben]

yeah, ho], I really do not appreciate your anti-jewish generalisations Check my post in response what youve saqid on it actually makes me prettyy pissed off when I read your post. I am amazed that you know so much about character purely on the basis I am Jewish. I dont think comments like "Jews always hide behind the holocaust " are acceptable. pretty nasty actually. I know people who survived autshvitz, including somee who are anti-zionist, and yes they do speake about the holocaust as one of the worst human tragedies.

I am completely antizionsist and so are my family (not that I think it is my place to apologize fo iswrael). Think before you make such nasty generalizations.

[BOZG]

I agree with Ho to the point that the Zionists are slowly becoming Nazis. Sharon and his army are butchers. Granted, that the Holocaust was a much larger event than what is happening in Palestine and I wouldn't describe the two as oranges and apples but as mandarins and large oranges.

[MJM]

I side with the Palestinians too, but I know it's a zionist campaign not a jewish campaign.I want the zionist terrorists to stop their agression. Wake up and smell the roses , racism divides us and by saying things like 'jews hide behind the holocast' is racist and divisive.
We have jewish comrades here who hate whats happening in Palestine. Perhaps you should consider this before labelling them as slaughtering the Palestinians.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Ho on 3:10 am on April 24, 2002
I believe that in this times where Israeli´s are harrassing Palestinian people the swastika could be compared to the david star.
Some people may think, 'this guy is crazy what is he saying!!!????'
But i answer to that question why r jews sloughtering Palestinians, if they are always (and its their right and obligation to do so)remembering the Holocaust???
So I believe that Jews always hide behind the Holocaust to attack and do what they want.
RAISE YOUR ARMS IN FAVOUR OF PALESTINE!!!!!


Let me just start off by saying that I am nuetral about this issue. I can understand both sides of it. I am not in favor of Israel or Palestine. I just want peace.

But what you are saying is nonsense. The Nazis, first off, were an organization hell-bent on destroying the Jews as a race and bring about their race as the "master race". The Israelis, on the other hand, are a group of people fighting in a WAR against people of the same race as they are, but different nationalities, to keep their tiny little area of land. One can ask, "Well why are they killing all these poor Palestinians". But you ignore to question, "Well why are the Palestinians killing so many innocent Israelis?"

Do you realize that some of these disputed territories are no more than 5 miles wide? Israel is tiny. It's just a small piece of mortgage owned by the Jews. This is the only place strictly owned by the Jews. Do you realize that surrounding this tiny little strip of land, there is tons and tons of Muslim territory? The Israelis aren't trying to conquer the fucking world like the Nazis. If anything, the Palestinians are the ones trying to conquer Israel. The Israelis are just trying to keep what they won from treaties a long time ago.

[Revolution Hero]

I support Palestinians, I am against Israel's violent politic, but I can't call them Nazi.
Yes, they act like Nazi by choosing the violent way of solving their problem, they have choosed war against peaceful people, but I don't think that any of them have read "Mein Kampf" or have a portrait of Hitler in their cabinets.
Israel is wrong , but not Nazi.

[chupacabra]

Oye Michael de Panama,
Would you like it if the Americans came and moved you and your family out of Panama. The birthplace of your parents and grandparents, the land where you were born? Then they moved you to a refugee camp and THEY controlled the water giving you and your people only 20% and 50% of your people would live below the poverty line. And if they would destroy the few hospitals and roads you had. Yet you would see that they were living in luxury and that they were planning on taking more and more of your land to build more settlements.
Te voy a decir algo, amigito, I am Nicaraguen~se and if somebody would do this to me and my people I would fight them to the death. This is exactly what the Americans and Japanese try and do in my country, take OUR land, exploit my people. I will be damned if you can tell me that there is a difference. Different cows, same mierda!

[I LOVE HO CHI MINH]

The fucking violence Jews are implanting in the Middle East cant be supported anymore. They had take advantage of the military weak countries of the zone for years. If we compare all the people Jews had killed, taking advantage of what I just said, with the Holocaust casualties would be pretty equal. I partially agree with Ho.

[Moskitto]

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat4.htm#Israel

It's nowhere near the 6 million holocaust victims and it happened over the space of 54 years instead of 12 years only 3 of which where there were major killings.

[Ho]

Im not an anti semite first.
Second if u believe that i am becuase i used the phrase "jews hide behind the holocaust" it is just a belief whith no bad intentions nor anything alike.
(Moreover do you think i can be an anti semite and communist at the same time? Marx-Engells)
Third Holocaust can be compared with every killing (not in numbers obviously but in the way and reasons for a minority to be killed)and in the case of Palestine Israelis are killing them with a) no real reason just that they r palestines b)no real proofs.
Last i brought the Holocaust up to make a clearly obvious exageration. Nothing could can and will be compared to the Holocaust ever.
Im sory if some of u mis understood my point or if i´ve not been clear enough.
i was not trying to offend anyone.
And please IWDY try not to call antisemite anybody without proof enough because it is not something nice at all.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from chupacabra on 3:18 pm on April 24, 2002
Oye Michael de Panama,
Would you like it if the Americans came and moved you and your family out of Panama. The birthplace of your parents and grandparents, the land where you were born? Then they moved you to a refugee camp and THEY controlled the water giving you and your people only 20% and 50% of your people would live below the poverty line. And if they would destroy the few hospitals and roads you had. Yet you would see that they were living in luxury and that they were planning on taking more and more of your land to build more settlements.
Te voy a decir algo, amigito, I am Nicaraguen~se and if somebody would do this to me and my people I would fight them to the death. This is exactly what the Americans and Japanese try and do in my country, take OUR land, exploit my people. I will be damned if you can tell me that there is a difference. Different cows, same mierda!


First, I would not like this one bit. I am not in favor of Israel. As I said, I am neutral on this issue.

I don't currently live in Panama. I left in 1989 at the time that American troops were invading, burning down neighborhoods, murdering innocent people on the streets, bombing elementary schools, while removing our oppressive dictator ("out of good nature") and establishing no other government in it's place, leaving the country in a violent anarchy. Your story is a little familiar.

However, there are some flaws to your comparison. America doesn't own Panama. Palestine was owned by the U.K., and granted to Israel after World War II. Not every Palestinian is living in the hell that you describe. Of course, many of them are. But a lot of them live just as decently as the Israelis. I wouldn't want to fight for my land as much as I would just want to coexist with the Americans. As a Marxist, I don't feel that ownership of private property is very important. Both sides need to come to a compromise.

By the way everyone, enough of this shit where you are refering to all Israelis as "the Jews". All Israelis aren't Jews. All Jews aren't Israelis. Just like all Americans aren't white.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Ho on 5:16 pm on April 24, 2002
Im not an anti semite first.
Second if u believe that i am becuase i used the phrase "jews hide behind the holocaust" it is just a belief whith no bad intentions nor anything alike.
It's a stereotype that has little or no basis in reality. Anti-semitism is a system of anti-semitic beliefs!


Quote: from Ho on 5:16 pm on April 24, 2002

Third Holocaust can be compared with every killing (not in numbers obviously but in the way and reasons for a minority to be killed)and in the case of Palestine Israelis are killing them with a) no real reason just that they r palestines b)no real proofs.
Last i brought the Holocaust up to make a clearly obvious exageration. Nothing could can and will be compared to the Holocaust ever.
Comparing the Holocaust with every killing is like comparing every matchbook with a nuclear bomb . . . there's clearly something wrong there. The differences between the Holocaust and the Palestinian massacres have already been pointed out in this thread by Moskitto, and the differences are vast. The most recent murder(s) that can be fairly compared to the Holocaust happened in Rwanda back in the mid-90's. You made that exaggeration to get a reaction out of us and we all know it. (No one compares something to Nazism for fun.) Well, you got your reaction. Don't think that you can compare the symbol of my faith, ancestry and heritage with a symbol of mass murder, irrational hate, unchecked greed, insanity and the deaths of many of my family members without an emotion or two being brought into my response.

[I LOVE HO CHI MINH]

[Don't think that you can compare the symbol of my faith, ancestry and heritage with a symbol of mass murder, irrational hate, unchecked greed, insanity and the deaths of many of my family members without an emotion or two being brought into my response.[/quote]

MY question is, Arent jews commiting mass murders, dont they have irrational hate for palestines? Insanity?
Please dont be silly, what your partners are doing on the Middle East is a genocide.

[Ho]

Michael de Panama
[quote]But you ignore to question, "Well why are the Palestinians killing so many innocent Israelis?"[quote]
Palestinians are killing innocent Israelis because it is the onlyway they find to fight for their beliefs.
Vos q sos de Panama debes saber lo que es sentirse impuesto por un pais.
Imaginate que simplemente te saquen una parte de el territorio y pongan una nacion y esta empieze a vivir ahi y encima te pretenda echar!
como reaccionarias?
yo por lo menos lucharia como sea

[Derar]

I've realized something , that jewish ppl dont want in any way , or even get pissed if someone tries to compare a massacre to the holocaust !
I know that the holocaust was something horrible ..... but yet there other horrible massacres that shouldnt be forgotten , the number of casualties doesnt count ....
the method and the goal is what it counts ......
israel has been killing palestinian civilians in all the ugly ways , from shooting to burning to executing prisoners , to burrying ppl alive .... in order to free palestine ( or as they call it israel ) from palestinians ........ in order to wipe out a whole race !

I heard a really good qoute said by an evil man , but the way i understood it .... made it really true :
" A single death is a tragedy , million deaths is a statistic "

which means , as long as there r ppl killed ...... it doesnt matter how many , its still horrible .

[munkey soup]

Damn, ILHCM, did IWDY ever say the Israelis were her "partners."? Or are you grouping her with all Israelis cause she's Jewish?

And no Palestinian has irrational hate for an Israeli, do they? I think its time for you to stop being silly. Open your fucking eyes boyo, both sides harbor irrational hate for each other and both sides have blood on their hands. And while I side with the palestinians, the proletariats on both sides need to wake up, make peace, and overthrow their respective corrupt governments.

[Ho]

Derar that is what i believe that is why i opened this topic
I completly coincide with you

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from I LOVE HO CHI MINH on 8:04 pm on April 24, 2002
MY question is, Arent jews commiting mass murders, dont they have irrational hate for palestines? Insanity?
Yes, Jews in Palestine/Israel/whatever you want to call it are committing mass murder. I never said that wasn't true. So what's your point?

Some people have irrational hate for Palestinians. If you look at all of the different groups who have irrational hate towards Muslims, you'll see Jews, Christians, Hindus . . . the list, unfortunately, goes on way too long. A few Muslims are prejudiced towards other groups, as well. It goes back and forth, and despite my best efforts, irrational hate will not be erased from the face of the earth anytime soon.


Quote: from I LOVE HO CHI MINH on 8:04 pm on April 24, 2002
Please dont be silly, what your partners are doing on the Middle East is a genocide.
I'm not being silly. Let's get that straight right away.

Partners? Where the hell did you hear that? I've never been to Israel and I don't even have any family there. I never once condoned the illegal and immoral occupation or settlements. How are they my partners? The Israelis and I all eat bagels and use the same hair products . . . but that doesn't make us partners.

Maybe you should look up the word "genocide" in a dictionary. I don't have any partners in the Middle East but even if I did, genocide is an effort to wipe an ethnic group off of the face of the planet. However, I can name plenty of countries in the Middle East that have never been invaded by Israel.


There are plenty of people, even some on this board, who are a lot more sympathetic towards the Israeli government than I am. All I ever said is that the symbol of my faith is not a modern-day swastika. So if you've got some beef with Israel, don't take it out on me.

[I LOVE HO CHI MINH]

I will deny you
Arent you a jew? I understand you were. What I refern with "partners" was your ancestors, your family etc.

[Ho]

IWDY we have simillar beliefs we shouldnt be fighting against each other but together.
so once more im sory if i wasnt clear enough and you totally misunderstood my point.

[Reuben]

Ho, how did WE misunderstand your point. When you say "THE JEWS hide behind the holocaust "Jews" do this "Jews" do that how are we meant to understand it.

I do not know if you are new to this board or, but you by now must know that on this board there are several jewish anti-zionists. If you want to label people and and attacktheir behaviour, then fine but I would never make such inferences myself.
I would never say " blacks are murdering people" or "BLACKS are hiding behind slavery"
And ILHCM, I do know what you are talking about."our partners". so you are saying that it s alright to go around saying that "jews" are doing whatever, and then when someone who is jewish questions you, on the basi that they have no responsibility say "well your family/partners are"


Please do not sink to the pathetic levels of guilt by association

[Revolution Hero]

I suppose you should call the topic " Anti- semitic shit".
Jewish people are like that and like them. What the hell is it?
Remeber that people have nothing to do with war. Soldier have to obey the orders of the millitary generals, and the generals have to obey the orders of their government.
Calling Jews Nazi , you call Nazi all the war agressors of the world history. But the point is that the Israel's government is just blood thirsty, so let them drink it. They are fucking agressors so let them attack. But always remember what kind of image they would have after that......it wouldn't be the image of Nazi though....

[Dhul Fiqar]

I'd just like to interject a small correction while staying pretty much out of the main argument...

Genocide is not necessarily the act of wiping out an ethnic group such as 'Arabs'.

Genocide is generally understood to mean (and I looked this up in a dictionary to be 100% sure) "the purposeful destruction of a PEOPLE or a NATION". Thus what's happening in Palestine is most definitely a genocide.

Sorry about the caps, but I have yet to master the italic command :)

--- G. Raven

[Dhul Fiqar]

Sorry, I forgot to say that correction was in response to "I will deny you", I have also yet to master the quote option. :)

--- G. Raven

[chupacabra]

Ho, exactamente hermano!

Michael de Panama, you are wrong when you say that the US doesn't own Panama, Nicaragua, (Centroamerica) or even Venezuela. It tries to own our countries! I feel bad that you had to leave your patria because of the dictatorships of selfish men. I am not comparing #'s of deaths in the Holocaust or even try to demean the horror of what the Jews experienced. I respect all human life. But what would give someone the right to take the country of my parents and their parents and move me and my family to a refugee camp? what fault would I and my grandparents have in dirty politics where all we were doing is living in peace and not bothering anyone. How would you feel to see your parents and friends suffering because the UK and the USA decided that now your land/country belongs to someone else and now you have nowhere to call home. This has NOTHING to do with communism because the Israelis are exploiting their power with the mighty US $$$. And what I call my land is a country where it belongs to the people not to colonialists and exploiterers.
Why do you think Che fought so hard? Because he didn't want Cuba or anywhere else in the world to be taken over and controlled by the US. I feel that the Palestinian people feel the same way, they have a right for self-determination, a right to dignity and respect, a right to live in houses with running water. Michael maybe you could learn to co-exist and give Latin America to the USA/Bush but you know what?
I rather die than to give up my people and our dignity to the filthy politics of the USA. My people fought hard against the US Marines and the Somozistas to keep my country free of American control.

[chupacabra]

Since the discovery of the American continent, Nicaragua was exploited by Spain, other foreign powers, especially England, imperialists and later traitors loyal to Yankee bankers. I believe in a multi-racial country where all are workers and peasants from the humblest soldier to the supreme chief. Michael de Panama--- I don’t understand why you would give up your country to foreign powers? USA only likes to EXPLOIT! You call yourself a Marxist yet you say you could co-exist living with the USA controlling Panama? Co-existence isn’t in the American or Israeli dictionary, amigo. It’s called occupation!

VIVA PALESTINA! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

[Edelweiss]

What is making the holocaust so unique in history, and un-comparable to all other genocides is that they Nazis killed the Jews just because of ideological reasons. Anti-semitism was a state doctrine. There were no terretorial or other real political interests. So comparing Isreal to Nazis may be a nice term to defame, but historical and also morally it's stupid and just wrong. It's a huge insult for all victims of the holocaust and a extenuation of the Nazi crimes.

[chupacabra]

In a fresh reminder of the tension, more than 100 Saudi intellectuals said over the weekend that the American role in the Israeli military operation against the Palestinians was ``shameful'' and that the ``Israeli massacres do not differ in shape or form from what the Nazis did.''

Throwing Bush's words back at him, they said: ``We consider the United States and the current American administration the nurturer of international terrorism with distinction and it, along with Israel, form the axis of terrorism and evil in the world.''

Saudi Arabia's foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, said the intellectuals tapped into a prevailing view in his country. ``It reflects the frustration that exists there,'' he said Wednesday on ``The CBS Evening News.''

The foreign minister ridiculed Bush's description of Sharon as ``a man of peace.''

``Ariel Sharon a man of peace?'' the prince said. ``I don't even think Ariel Sharon believes that.''

Responding to Bush's demand that Arab countries condemn Palestinian suicide bombings, al-Faisal in an interview with the Arab daily al-Hayat said: ``Nobody favors killing the innocent from here or there.'' But the Saudi foreign minister added: ``How could anybody condemn a person who lost hope in life because of humiliations and circumstances imposed on him by an occupier? There is a difference between a terrorist attack like what took place on Sept. 11, and a suicide operation by a male or female youth (for) who all means of decent life have been blocked.''

In London, meanwhile, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to Britain defended a poem he wrote praising Palestinian suicide bombers, and said he would change it only if Jewish leaders in Britain began referring to some past and present Israeli leaders, including Sharon, as terrorists also.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from I LOVE HO CHI MINH on 8:04 pm on April 24, 2002
Please dont be silly, what your partners are doing on the Middle East is a genocide.


Quote: from I LOVE HO CHI MINH on 9:50 pm on April 24, 2002
I will deny you
Arent you a jew? I understand you were. What I refern with "partners" was your ancestors, your family etc.
But as I've already said, my ancestors/family haven't lived in Israel for about 2,000 years.

[guerrillaradio]

Ok I'm sick and fucking tired of immature 12 yr olds making their first post on Che-Lives one along the lines of "I hate Jews, they all kill Palestinians". Fuck all anti-semites, I shit on your fucking stupidity. Every time we all make the same response: Zionism is not the same as Judaism. To be quite honest, if I was IWDY or Reuben, I would reply with a post much ruder than this. You Ho fans (are you the same person?? Seems kinda odd...) really have no idea and no mastering of international affairs do you?? And yes, comments such as "Jews hide behind the Holocaust" are anti-semitic. In reality, your ideology is no better than Sharon's.

To everyone else who has tried to knock some sense into these silly fucks: give up. These kinda posts don't deserve replies.

[chupacabra]

G--
I KNOW that. My very good friend is JEWISH, in college my favorite professors have been Jewish, I have dated Jews. I have nothing but the utmost respect for HUMANITY. All the point that at least I am trying to make is that senseless crimes of war, Holocaust, Vietnam, etc. are tragic and that because we are all civil intelligent beings we should learn from the past and not compare tragedies but rather choose to avoid them. Jenin massacre was not necessary. The Holocaust was not necessary. Bottom line: Sharon should know better than that and there does not need more blood to be shed on neither side.

[Dreadnaht1]

Ariel Sharon, A Hitler for the 21st Century.

:)

[Derar]

And Jenin , the first massacre of the 21st century !

[Ho]

i said it once i said twice and for the third timeim saying IM FUCKING SORY!!!
i ment fucking zionists and my problems with engilsh limited me !
so SORY to anybody who felt insulted.

[RedRevolutionary87]

ok i think the first statement by ho was a little generelised, if one observes history one will realize that antagonism between jews and muslims in the palestiniat region is almost non existant. THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE! and no the nazi state was in the end still more interested in economy, they just used their hatered of jews as an eexcuse, the driving force was economy, and i would consider what is going on in israel as nazi tactics, but more subtle. they are spreading nationalism to be able to kill people, that was the basis of the nazi party and is the basis of israels government. and nazis wernt based on hatered of jews, they were based on hatered of all who werent arian or anglo-saxon. the slavs and gypsies suffered just as much as the jews. and you dont see any of the other victims gaining their own state, no1 has that right! the germans wanted a pure arian state, that was wrong. the world is for all people to share. and now the israellies want a purely jewish state, and this makes them no better than the nazis. no matter how persecuted a people are they have no right to persecute others! two wrongs dont make a right!

(Edited by RedRevolutionary87 at 4:39 pm on April 26, 2002)

[Ho]

Thanks red revolutionary u were the only person to understand my point.
Most probably because of an expression problem from my part.
But that is what i meant what RR87 wrote.
once more sory

[Fabi]

so what is my opinion on this issue...?
(i did notice Ho's several apologies, by the way)

well, as of now i dont think i have an opinion that would be worth revealing. (refer to my signature... sorry to contradict that spanish proverb, probably i'm stupid)

But i can totally understand if IWDY and/or Reuben seemed to be getting a little annoyed since funny as it is i have been in similar situations (and victim of stupid prejudice) too many times myself.

Germans=Nazis
is what i usually had to listen to as the first thing when i met someone over in the US, although fortunately it wasn't always like that.
still, i really got tired of it. 'ye a german? r u a nazi?' after so many times you just dont really think that it is too original.

all jewish are thieves and greedy and all germans are nazi(s) and all whites are racist and all blacks (which of course means African Americans or whatever PC is correct) only listen to hip hop and are dumb and i dontknowwhat.

sorry bout this little pointless post, but i really had to get this off my chest... ;)

[Ho]

You also reflected something i wanted to say.
People are to used to the stereotypical person of the history of a country that say things that are nonsense (it happens to everybody).
Most of the times when i tell somebody Im argentine they tell me Do you live in the country? Do you ride horseback? Do you play soccer?
And my answers are NO NO NO.
This question irritate me and that is why I believe I irritated so many people with this topic so once again SORRY EVERYBODY.

[Reuben]

Quote: nazis wernt based on hatered of jews, they were based on hatered of all who werent arian or anglo-saxon. the slavs and gypsies suffered just as much as the jews. and you dont see any of the other victims gaining their own state, no1 has that right!

(Edited by RedRevolutionary87 at 4:39 pm on April 26, 2002)


Comrade, that isnt wuite. yes the nazis did have a hate for those who were not Aryan. However they had a very specific hatred and specific policy for the jews which did not apply to other non aryans. The jews and the Gypsies were the only ethnic minorities who the Nazis tried to wipe off the face of the planet. if they were just motivated by a general hatred of non-aryans, then why was it that in Lybia, the jews were carted off to concentration camps while this did not happen to the local north african population.

The slavs did duffer terribly. I knoe this. I actually had family in leningrad when it was under seige, but there was not an attempt to wipe them off the earth.

Therefore it is illogical to simply say that the jews just happened to be victim of a general hatred against non-aryans which applied to them all.

GREAT POST FABI

[death b4 dishonour]

actually in history the serbian people were the only people to recieve 100:1 execution by the nazis, and they did hate jews the most, but the drive was not the hatred, it was money as it always was. this of course doesn't justify anything, the jews were still persecuted a lot, but this does not give them the right to have their own state, by trying to establish a pure jewish state is nothing less than nazism. please dont take offense to this, i am just trying to point out rarely seen facts.

[queen of diamonds]

i think we have to look to the fact that the holocaust wasn't the only example of jewish persecution in history, it was just the biggest. jews have been persectuted throughout all history
as to whether that enables them to have their own state - i'm not going to make up my mind on that. what i do know is that the muslim's in india wanted their own state & got pakistan, & still over 800 people have died this year since february because of the hindu-muslim riots.
but i can fully understand their desire to have a seperate, persecution-free state, and palestine seemed logical - in Nazi Germany, a common insult was to tell the "dirty jews" to "go back to palestine and get out of germany".
interesting fact: South Australia was actually considered as a location for the Jewish state.

[Reuben]

D B4 D, Im not disputing what you are saying butwhat do you mean when you say that the serbians were the only ones given (100:1) execution. Given that Serbians survived, I do not see how it coud have could have differed from the treatment of the jews and gypsies who they made every effort to wipe out.

Regarding Issues on the jewish state, i am not sure. My parents have always been really oppositional to the idea from a jewwish perspectiv e as much as anything. I would not necessarily support
a jewish state, however I do not feel that jews have any less right to a state than other ethnic minorities such as ther Bangladeshis, the Armenians (whos history is similar to that of the jews), the Kosovans etc. ABe aware that the idea f "Racially pure" jewish state is only one strand of thought. Having said that, I think that every ethnically specific nationalism has th potential to turn into this. Just look at the treatment of palestinians or the pogroms which used to happen in bangladeesh, or the burning of serbian houses in kosovo!

(Edited by Reuben at 8:19 am on April 27, 2002)

[RedRevolutionary87]

of course not. no one should have aright to their own state, we live in a global state, and no country should have just one race. i kno there is no easy answer to this question, because people are very much driven by their idiologies, and this is a horrible thing. only through a globe without borders can we have a good world.

i think db4d was talking about the serbian execution of 100 serbians for every german soilder that was killed by them.

and there is still my last point that no matter how much suffering a race goes through they dont have the right to bring it on to others. i mean there is a history of muslims helping jews, and very good relations between the two religions, throughout history muslims were the only people that didnt oppress the jews. i really think that the people in charge in israel simply hide behind the jewish religion and are not jewish at all.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Fabi on 6:22 pm on April 26, 2002
But i can totally understand if IWDY and/or Reuben seemed to be getting a little annoyed since funny as it is i have been in similar situations (and victim of stupid prejudice) too many times myself.

Germans=Nazis
is what i usually had to listen to as the first thing when i met someone over in the US, although fortunately it wasn't always like that.
still, i really got tired of it. 'ye a german? r u a nazi?' after so many times you just dont really think that it is too original.
Yeah, maybe I blew up a little bit. Part of the reason is that last time someone waltzed onto this board and made a post like Ho's, they didn't do much apologizing and turned out to be one of the (to put it politely) less intelligent members of this board. I, too noticed Ho's apologies and I'd like to apologize to Ho in return. Like Fabi, I've been on the receiving end of way too much bullshit and I over-reacted because I'm getting fed up more and more quickly these days. Also, you reminded me of said somewhat-unintelligent member but you seem to be much smarter and more interesting than he is, so it was wrong of me to judge you based on my opinions of him because I didn't have enough information on you. Truce?


Quote: from death b4 dishonour on 10:27 pm on April 26, 2002
actually in history the serbian people were the only people to recieve 100:1 execution by the nazis
Still, it's not really up to dispute that the Nazis singled out Jews much more than practically everyone else. They probably would have killed every single Jew on the planet first and foremost if they had the chance, and two big reasons why the Serbs were killed at a higher rate than the Jews are that they were located in a much smaller area, whereas there are Jews all over every continent, and that there weren't as many Serbs to kill as there were Jews.


Quote: from death b4 dishonour on 10:27 pm on April 26, 2002
but the drive was not the hatred, it was money as it always was.
At first it was about money, when the Germans were persecuting the Jewish bankers. But it probably stopped being more about hatred and less about money around the time the Nazi soldiers started pillaging schtetls.


Quote: from death b4 dishonour on 10:27 pm on April 26, 2002
this of course doesn't justify anything, the jews were still persecuted a lot, but this does not give them the right to have their own state
Persecution of Jews is a worldwide, historical phenomenon. If you look at persecution of Jews when they had their own state and you look at persecution of Jews when they didn't, you might be quite surprised. The Jews do not have a right to their own state, but there seems to be a need for it.


Quote: from death b4 dishonour on 10:27 pm on April 26, 2002
by trying to establish a pure jewish state is nothing less than nazism.
The Nazis wanted to create an empire, whereas Israel is more often than not the invadee, rather than the invader. The Nazis systematically killed non-Aryans because of their ethnicity, but Israel has not done that. (I believe that racism has a thing or two to do with the disgusting numbers of innocent Palestinians who have died, but Palestinian women and children were never gassed, as far as I know.) The Nazis wanted to conquer the world, but Israel is somewhere around the size of Connecticut and after 1948 (when concentration camp refugees were forced to relocate to Palestine after UN member nations refused to take them in or let them return to their original homes) they've only taken land after other countries started wars with them. (I disagree with the Occupation, but I think that Saudi Arabia, et al. have been somewhat hypocritical in started wars with Israel but never really giving much aid to the Palestinians. Or their own people, for that matter.) The Zionists never said that the world should belong to the Jews, but the Nazis said that the world should belong to the Aryans. The Zionists only said that the Jews should have a place to go to after the concentration camps, and during future anti-semitic campaigns around the world. These are just a few examples of the differences between Zionism, which is disgusting, and Nazism, which is even more disgusting.


Quote: from queen of diamonds on 1:19 am on April 27, 2002
palestine seemed logical - in Nazi Germany, a common insult was to tell the "dirty jews" to "go back to palestine and get out of germany".
I am admittedly ignorant when it comes to the history of Palestine, but as I recall it was taken from the Jews by the Romans, and from the Romans by the Arabs.


Quote: from queen of diamonds on 1:19 am on April 27, 2002
interesting fact: South Australia was actually considered as a location for the Jewish state.
So was Alaska!


Quote: from Reuben on 3:13 am on April 27, 2002
Be aware that the idea f "Racially pure" jewish state is only one strand of thought.
The Jews aren't much of a "race" at all. There are white, brown and black Jews. The Ashkenazim are Caucasian/Turkish (and usually share most of their DNA with Eastern Europeans), the Sephardim are Spanish/Semitic, the Falashas and Lemba people are black, the Jews in Burma are decidedly Asian-looking (and the Jews from China and India probably are as well, but I haven't seen a picture of them recently so I wouldn't be able to tell you). Then you've got the Mountain Jews, who are quite unique. In short, the anti-semitic legends of Jews being "impure" and inferior are bullshit, but it would be impossible to argue that the Jews are all racially similar. Most of the Jewish elite are descended from Ashkenazim, but the Lemba are probably the most "pure" of all Jews.


Quote: from RedRevolutionary87 on 8:57 am on April 27, 2002
and there is still my last point that no matter how much suffering a race goes through they dont have the right to bring it on to others. i mean there is a history of muslims helping jews, and very good relations between the two religions, throughout history muslims were the only people that didnt oppress the jews. i really think that the people in charge in israel simply hide behind the jewish religion and are not jewish at all.Exactly! I couldn't have said it better. This is why I am anti-Zionism, and more specifically anti-Occupation. The Moors let the Jews prosper in Spain while the Christian elite that took over persecuted Jews and Muslims alike. (Which makes it quite ironic that some of the most influential Zionsists are Evangelical Christians, and in some cases Televangelists! The mix of Bible-derived anti-semitism and Bible-derived Zionism is unique to America as far as I know.)

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 10:44 am on April 27, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Just bumping the topic up to make sure Ho sees my apology.