Cuba better before Castro?

[fernando]

So I found this site, and it made some serious claims, Im not sure if they are to be taken serious since they are of an Anti-Castro site, but the link is below

http://www.cubasugar.com/zenith.html


SUMMARY AND INTRODUCTION: An enduring myth is that 1950's Cuba was a socially and economically backward country whose development was jump-started by the Castro government.* In fact, according to readily-available historical data, Cuba was a relatively advanced country in 1958, certainly by Latin American standards and, in some areas, by world standards.* The data appear to show that Cuba has at best maintained what were already high levels of development in health and education, but at an extraordinary cost to the overall welfare of the Cuban people.* These include access to "basics" such as adequate levels of food and electricity, but also access to consumer goods, the availability of which have increased significantly in other Latin American countries in recent decades.

It is true that Cuba's infant mortality rate is the best in Latin America today, but it also was the best in Latin America -- and the 13th lowest in the world -- in pre-Castro Cuba.* Cuba also has improved the literacy of its people, but Cuba had an excellent educational system and impressive literacy rates in the 1950's.

On the other hand, many economic and social indicators have declined since the 1959 revolution.* Pre-Castro Cuba ranked third in Latin America in per capita food consumption; today, it ranks last.* Per capita consumption of cereals, tubers, and meat are today all below 1950's levels.* The number of automobiles in Cuba has fallen since the 1950's - the only country in Latin America for which this is the case.* The number of telephone lines in Cuba also has been virtually frozen at 1950's levels.* Cuba once ranked first in Latin America and fifth in the world in television sets per capita.* Today, it barely ranks fourth in Latin America and is well back in the ranks globally.

Cuba's rate of development of electrical power since the 1950's ranks behind every other country in Latin America except Haiti.* Cuba is the only country in the hemisphere for which rice production today is lower than it was four decades ago.* By virtually any measure of macroeconomic stability, Cuba was in far better shape in 1958 than it is today.* Finally, the Castro government shut down what was a remarkably vibrant media sector in the 1950's, when the relatively small country had 58 daily newspapers of differing political hues and ranked eighth in the world in number of radio stations.

METHODOLOGY: This paper assesses Cuba's level of development in a variety of economic and social indicators during the revolutionary period (1959-present), especially relative to that of other countries during the same period. It relies most extensively on UN data, particularly from the statistical yearbook and demographic yearbook, which are considered among the most prestigious data compendiums in the development field.* Trade data is derived from the IMF's Direction of Trade Statistics, which provides a consistent data series dating back to the l950s.* For the various international comparisons and rankings listed below, only those countries acquiring independence prior to 1958 and having relatively consistent data available for the period 1955-present have been included. ( The former stipulation excludes many highly-developed Caribbean countries from consideration).

HEALTH: The health care system is often touted by many analysts as one of the Castro government's greatest achievements. What this, analysis ignores is that the revolutionary government inherited an already-advanced health sector when it took power in 1959.

Cuba's infant mortality rate of 32 per 1,000 live births in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data.* Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Spain, and Portugal, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades.

Today, Cuba remains the most advanced country in the region in this measure, but its world ranking has fallen from 13th to 24th during the Castro era, according to UN data.* Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate -0.71 abortions per live birth in 1991, according to UN data – which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality.* Cuba's abortion rate is at least twice the rate for the other countries in the table below for which data is available.

In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina - both of which were more advanced than the United States in this measure. Cuba’s 128 physicians and dentists per 100,000 people in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom (122 per 100,000 people) and Finland (96).

Unfortunately, the UN statistical yearbook no longer publishes these statistics, so more recent comparisons are not possible, but it is completely erroneous to characterize pre-Revolutionary Cuba as backward in terms of health care.

EDUCATION: Cuba has been among the most literate countries in Latin America since well before the Castro revolution, when it ranked fourth.* Since then, Cuba his increased its literacy rate from 76 to 96 percent, which today places it second only to Argentina in Latin America.* This improvement is impressive, but not unique among Latin American countries.* Panama, which ranked just behind Cuba in this indicator during the 1950's - has matched Cuba's improvement when measured in percentage terms.


Rest of the article can be read on the link.

What do you people think of this?

[The Sloth]

I haven't bothered to read through the whole of that mess, but here's a quick reminder:

1) Cuba may not have been "backwards" under Batista, but Batista was a cruel dictator nonetheless

2) Cuba may not have been "backwards", but it nonetheless improved under Fidel Castro, which is impressive due to the massive embargo

3) Almost all of the problems in Cuba right now are due to the embargo against the nation, so it makes absolutely no sense to "blame communism" or "blame Fidel Castro" for things he has no control over. :angry: Lift the embargo, and watch how quickly America will grow fearful of the fact that "socialism works!"

[Robber Baron]

Ahh the beer was flowin,money was spent,and women were laughing.Not to mention that cars were new then.

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by Robber [email protected] 22 2004, 07:39 PM
Ahh the ,money was spent,and women were laughing.Not to mention that cars were new then.
Cuba, especially Havana, was whoring itself out to American businessmen during the 1950s. Havana was one big red light district.

I think the only women who were laughing were scarlet ones who were getting rich off lecherous Americans from Miami on dirty weekends in Cuba!

[Robber Baron]

Nothing wrong with whores.
BTW...I thought commies welcomed all?

[CubanFox]

You know your country has problems when the only way thousands of women can make money is by spreading their legs.

[Robber Baron]

Cubanfox.I agree.But i raise you one.What do they make money on now?
Do your homework and get back to me.I am curious.

[fernando]

hmm..if I recal correctly the US placed an embargo un Cuba because they are a socialist non Yankee lapdog government...so if Cuba became a maffia run brothel (sp?) again, the US would drop the embargo...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 10:01 AM
Cuba, especially Havana, was whoring itself out to American businessmen during the 1950s. Havana was one big red light district.

I think the only women who were laughing were scarlet ones who were getting rich off lecherous Americans from Miami on dirty weekends in Cuba!

Cuba, especially Havana, was whoring itself out to American businessmen during the 1950s. Havana was one big red light district.

I fail to see why this was a problem


I think the only women who were laughing were scarlet ones who were getting rich off lecherous Americans from Miami on dirty weekends in Cuba!

Mutual benefit is the spice of life!

[DaCuBaN]

Mutual benefit is the spice of life!

So go turn New Orleans into the whorehouse it may as well be. Why is it a problem? Because people get all moralistic and don't want it on their doorstep

My word, CI you've given me a moment of epiphany: The Cuban revolution failed ebcause Castro is really a moralist asshole trying to pass himself off as a communist! :lol:

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 11:58 PM

So go turn New Orleans into the whorehouse it may as well be.
Heck, lets not kid ourselves, it already is!!!

[DaCuBaN]

Hey! I like New Orleans. It was one of the few cities in the US that I actually felt like I wanted to be in. Quite similar to Amsterdam in many ways.


Not to mention that cars were new then

What does the age of a car have to do with anything? Mine is 11 years old this week (yay!) having covered 150k without ever having failed to start nor leave me stranded. Hell, it's just in it's prime, and still smokes almost every BMW, Mercedes etc that I come across.

Ah, my weakness is out :rolleyes:

Trash this thread someone? I don't think anyone would seriously say that Batista's cuba was better.

[antieverything]

Last I checked, Havana is still a huge red light district for tourists!

[antieverything]

A few weeks ago I posted a link to a book with a similar sentiment. This, however, was the work of an anarchist historian. Very convincing stuff, I'll try to look for it.

[fernando]

Originally posted by "Capitalist Imperial"
I fail to see why this was a problem

I thought prostitution was also illegal in the US...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by fernando+Jul 23 2004, 06:04 PM--> (fernando @ Jul 23 2004, 06:04 PM)
"Capitalist Imperial"
I fail to see why this was a problem

I thought prostitution was also illegal in the US... [/b]
illegality and something not being a problem on a personal level are not mutually exclusive.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 23 2004, 07:19 PM
illegality and something not being a problem on a personal level are not mutually exclusive.
So you don't mind picking up a random woman on a corner knowing her purpose there is to have sex for money?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Brooklyn-[email protected] 23 2004, 07:24 PM
So you don't mind picking up a random woman on a corner knowing her purpose there is to have sex for money?
I personally wouldn't do that, but I don't judge someone else for doing it, if the arrangement is between 2 consenting adults and there is a clean bill of health for each.


(by the way, I still plan to respond to the "phillipenes" debate, I just need a longer run of time at my comp, I'll get a response to you.)

[LuZhiming]

It is true that Cuba's infant mortality rate is the best in Latin America today, but it also was the best in Latin America -- and the 13th lowest in the world -- in pre-Castro Cuba.* Cuba also has improved the literacy of its people, but Cuba had an excellent educational system and impressive literacy rates in the 1950's.

This is true. But you have to basically decode what this really means. The whole justification for the Revolution coming to power was that the current system created massive inequality and that, although a fair amount of people had improvements in their life, there were a lot of people, particularly peasents, who did not benefit at all, and in some cases were made worse off. This paragraph in no way refutes that. Comparing Cuba to other nations in the 50s is a joke, most other nations had experienced very devastating wars, of course Cuba is going to look impressive worldwide. Not even Europe was particularly impressive in the 50s, and the rest of Latin America, not to mention Africa and Asia were barely surviving. :rolleyes: Furthermore, it's a miracle that Cuba's current advancements can "continue" (in fact, increase) developements, because Cuba has been strangulated, terrorized, and isolated like crazy since the Revolution. What does that tell us?


On the other hand, many economic and social indicators have declined since the 1959 revolution.* Pre-Castro Cuba ranked third in Latin America in per capita food consumption; today, it ranks last.*

Again, let's decode this. What this really means is that, today, in a lot of other Latin American countries, a lot of food is consumed(wasted), by the upper classes, Latin America is by far the leader in inequality after all worldwide. Where do I get this assumption from? That's pretty obvious, just look at the actual health statistics (which the person who wrote this article knows about I'm sure), and compare them to the rest of Latin America, the only countries that can compare with Cuba are Chile and Costa Rica, the rest are way behind. So that can mean two things: A. Cubans do not need to have as much food as other Latin Americans to stay health. Or it can mean B. Lots of food is consumed(wasted) by the upper classes in other Latin American countries. :rolleyes:


Per capita consumption of cereals, tubers, and meat are today all below 1950's levels.

Again, see above for what that really means. Cubans would have to be worse off in their health statistics and such if they were actually eating less food that was needed.


The number of automobiles in Cuba has fallen since the 1950's - the only country in Latin America for which this is the case.*

That is definately true, and not in any way misleading, but it takes a lot of dedication to not notice that the fact that Cuba lost most of its trade with the Soviet Union and has an embargo from the United States with virtually no trade with Japan has a lot to do with this. If you have a U.S. embargo, lost most of your trade with Eastern Europe and always had limited trading with Western Europe, and have almost no trading with Japan, where the hell are you going to get automobiles from? This is not the fault of anyone in Cuba, this trading system was forced on it from the very beginning.


Cuba's rate of development of electrical power since the 1950's ranks behind every other country in Latin America except Haiti.

This one is totally meaningless, most of the electrical power used in the Western Hemisphere is for waste and destruction. Big deal.



To debunk the rest of these, I advise people to read this: http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ401.html

[Fidel Castro]

Was Batista's Cuba better than Castro's Cuba?

I have walked the streets of Havana, and talked to many Cubans, and to claim that Cuba today is not an island which suffers problems would be plain lies.

The masses of Batista's Cuba were very poor, and most rural areas had no access to electricity, medical treatment or schooling (in fact many in the big cities had no access to such things). It was only a small Cuban elite and many foreign fat-cats who lived comfortably in Cuba in the Batista era, whilst the island itself was being pillaged of her land by U.S companies (I believe over 80% of agricultural land at the time was in U.S hands). Of course, in Havana at the time, prostitution was rife, as was gambling, drinking and crime.

During all this, of course, Batista was topping up his piggy-bank which had become depleated during his time at Daytona, and the only ones benifiting from Cuba were the U.S and a small Cuban elite. The masses were excluded (and often tortured and murdered), and also struggled to satisfy basic needs.

After the revolution, which had mass support (strange if Cuba is so good under Batista :huh: ), Fidel launched a campaign to boost education and healthcare, which if these services were already satisfactory he would not have undertaken. Today Cuba is an island of the best education and health services in Latin America, and beyond. Cuba also undoubtedly had one of the best medical research and production industries in the world.

The hardships faced by Cubans today are different from the Batista era. No Cuban today lacks basic needs, such as food, housing, education or healthcare. What they do lack is secondary goods, such as electricals, clothing items, toiletries, mechanical items, tools. The introduction of the dollar economy during the "Special Period" provided a life-line for the Cuban economy after the Soviet collapse. The problem with the dollar-system is that, because the value of the dollar is so high in comparison to the Paso, those Cubans with access to dollars through families in the US, or through the tourist industry have access to luxury goods beyond the reach of Cubans on a Paso wage.

It was predictable then that everybody, no matter how sincere their political ideals, would crave access to dollars in order to get items that most people take for granted, e.g toilet paper, soap, toothpaste. Some, are willing to go further than others to gain dollars, some will simply beg, some will sell themselves, some will offer to give tours to tourists, and some will take the ultimate step and cross into the US (usually by illegal means, because the US interests section normally refuses Cuban entry applications. This is simply to encourage Cubans to leave through illegal means in order to portray them as "fleeing the dictator". The fact is that those who go to Miami usually do so for economic rather than political means)

[Loknar]

Castro may not be perfect, but he has accomplished much despite having a US embargo and the collapse of t he Soviet Union during his reign. Before him, %40 of the Cuban people were illiterate, today Cuba’s education system is easily on par with any western nation. Hell I even read that people from Haiti flee to Cuba. Cuba may not be a modern western nation, but t hey have the necessities that they did not have under Batista.

[fuerzasocialista]

Typical right-wing trash. Cuba was nothing more than a puta to the United States when Batista was in power. Afro-Cubans and non supporters of Batista had no rights and the only thing that mattered was the almighty dollar.


CUBA SI YANQUIS NO

CUBA SI YANQUIS NO

CUBA SI YANQUIS NO

[Fidel Castro]

Of course, we must also remember the work which Cuba does for the Third World. Here we have a blockaded nation sending medical teams to some of the poorestand most dangerous regions on earth, not to mention accepting students from such countries in Cuban universities.

The Cuban Revolution, the Battle of Ideas is still underway!

UN MUNDO MAJORE ES POSSIBLE!

VIVA LA REVOLUCION SOCIALISTA!

VIVA FIDEL E CHE!

[Salvador Allende]

Cuba is certainly better now. Cuba is the head of the movement in the entire side of the globe. Maybe if we hadn't seen US intervention in many Latin American nations, the movement would still have power in Chile and other areas.

[fernando]

I read this book by Noam Chomsky called 'About Ideology and Power' it kinda told about US intervention in Central America, including Haiti...some Yanks I spoke to said Haiti was doing so much better under the US when the marines where there and all...but the seem to forget that the Marines basicly turned the people there into slaves, massacres all opposition and stuff like that.

[fernando]

Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 30 2004, 03:38 AM
Cuba is certainly better now. Cuba is the head of the movement in the entire side of the globe. Maybe if we hadn't seen US intervention in many Latin American nations, the movement would still have power in Chile and other areas.
If the US left us all alone...well they would not have been as rich and powerful as they are today.

[Fidel Castro]

If the US left us all alone...well they would not have been as rich and powerful as they are today.

They would have nothing. :angry:

[RedRevolution]

Very true

[fernando]

Originally posted by Fidel [email protected] 7 2004, 11:19 AM

They would have nothing. :angry:
Well, the US have their own natural resources (and quite a lot of them) but they would run out of them, and be much weaker and more vulnerable to attacks.

The US needs their Latin American backyard, that is why they are shitting their pants when some country there is starting to go very well, that could spread like a cancer, the US finds in necesarry to take out that "cancer" before it infects the rest of their backyard

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 10:32 AM
If the US left us all alone...well they would not have been as rich and powerful as they are today.
Don't try and take credit for making America powerful.

We earned it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Fidel [email protected] 7 2004, 11:19 AM

They would have nothing. :angry:
oh come on, that is absolutely not true, that "we would have nothing"

...please

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 01:58 PM
Very true
no, its not

[Osman Ghazi]

Don't try and take credit for making America powerful.

We earned it.


Please, you stole it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 7 2004, 08:41 PM

Please, you stole it.
Earned it, with blood, sweat, tears, and lives.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Osman Ghazi]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Odd you should say that, as you seem to love the 'great game' whereby people kill each other for money.

And besides, we like to think that we hate all the players and the game as well. There are just some players (like the U$) that are big assholes and thus easy to hate.

[fernando]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 7 2004, 05:28 PM
Don't try and take credit for making America powerful.

We earned it.
Wait...so you earned it to go to Latin America and practically steal the natural resources there? you earned it to invade countries which dont obey the rule of Washngton? Earned from stealing...wow...you earned it to kill all those people who stood in your way of taking natural resources in Latin America, you earned it to kill thousands of people just so a small minority in your country gets richer :rolleyes:

[Pasionaria]

Cuba will be as in times of Batista.

[fernando]

Well...all of Latin America might turn into a maffia run casino where the Yanks can take "their" resources ;)

[Colombia]

Don't you think all types of countries and it's governments have stolen from other countries as well?I'm sure Latin American countries are not all innocent.

[Fidel Castro]

Don't you think all types of countries and it's governments have stolen from other countries as well?

To a degree. Certainly the US and most of Europe have nothing to be proud of, but most Latin American countries? They don't really have the capacity to rob the planet or even their neighbours I would say.

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 08:05 PM
Don't you think all types of countries and it's governments have stolen from other countries as well?I'm sure Latin American countries are not all innocent.
yes they send marines to Haiti, reinstate slavery there, support some military dictator who commits massacres...

Then they send more marines and bombers to countries who resist the will of Washington.... ;)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 03:25 PM
Cuba will be as in times of Batista.
Do you promise?

I can't wait! Pour the pina coladas y traerme las chicas bailandos!!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Fidel [email protected] 8 2004, 09:10 PM

To a degree. Certainly the US and most of Europe have nothing to be proud of, but most Latin American countries? They don't really have the capacity to rob the planet or even their neighbours I would say.
They've done it to the extent that they could do it. Just because they don't have the resources to do it doesn't mean they are any different from the US or europe.