A few questions on che and the revolutions

[Subversive Pessimist]

Why did the revolution in Congo fail?
How many men did they start with, and how many did they recruit from the local population?
How many of the revolutionaries died? How many of the state's army died?
How did they escape from Congo?

Did Che, Castro or Raul ever get wounded or shot in the revolution(s)?

Why did Che fail in Bolivia?
How many did he recruit from the local population?
What was the casualties on both sides during the revolution?
Was Che tortured by the Bolivians, when he was captured?

[Karo de Perro]

Whats this? ... a mid-term exam? ... will this be a permanent grade? ... ahhh hell another certificate goes without my name being attached ... then again this may be Che Lives version of Jeopardy ... in that case Alex I ll take 'name that booze' for 200 ... lol

[All My Stitches Itch]

I know Che got shot in the neck in cuba . . .and in the foot to (i think).

[Subversive Pessimist]

Karo, it's just out of curiousity.

AMSI, holy shi... In the neck? Was it just a little flesh wound or a direct hit?

[Karo de Perro]

excusemo mi compadre ... was simply flinging in a little levity ... lighten up hoss it wasnt meant to bruise any feelings.

As for the injury Che sustained - si ... it was a wound to the neck,its said that up til that time,as group doctor he had chosen to carry a medical bag but from this incident onward he carried ammunition.

In regards to the Congo ordeal its simply this,the native partisans were more concerned with runnin off to brothels than actively campaigning,also they refused to dig trenches in that they believed holes were meant for the dead,etc ... all in all Che found these people to be altogether unwilling to comply with his leadership and thus unfit for guerilla tactics and maneuvers and accordingly the Congo expedition was destined to fail.

Now,for the Bolivian campaign,upon this topic I could ramble on and on based upon my own suspicions of the entire matter,suffice it for me to say unreserveably that I feel it was a set-up and sell-out plain and simple.

However,were any to press the issue I d gladly delve into the matter insofar as my recollections of the situation has remained with me,else I would perhaps need to give this more indepth thought before replying.

[Subversive Pessimist]

No problemo comrade.

I am very interest in what you mean by that it was a set-up.
A set up by whom? As far as my memory goes, Che had problems with the communist party in Bolivia... I also have the feeling that a lot of people think of Debray as a kind of a Quisling. Is this what you are talking about?

[Guerrilla22]

Che was shot in the foot while taking cover behind a tee , can't remeber where though. He escaped the Congo along with several others via boat across some lake and across to the boarder to another country, again I can't remeber which one.

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by "Justice"+--> ("Justice")Why did Che fail in Bolivia?[/b]
There were a number of reasons, but the two most prominent were the lack of support he had from the general population, and the amount of American aid and training the Bolivian government was receiving.

Che made the mistake of thinking that he was only up against the Bolivian government, not realising the large US presence in the country. When the president of Bolivia at the time notified his American masters of Che's presence, the CIA sent agents to hunt Che down. Che also failed to realise the amount of training the Bolivian army had received from the Americans. He thought he would be facing a typical Third World ragtag army.

Hell, they trained a battallion of Green Berets to kill him!

To make matters worse, the Bolivian Communist Party, steadfastly aligned with Moscow, upon hearing Che's thoughts on the USSR, refused to take any part in the revolution.

In the end, a deserter informed the CIA of Che's location. They captured him, tied him up, he uttered his last words, "Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man!", was shot in the heart, and I believe he was buried next to an airstrip.


Originally posted by "Justice"@
Was Che tortured by the Bolivians, when he was captured?
Knowing how horribly the CIA tortured suspected Che-supporters in Bolivia, you can only imagine how they treated Che himself.


"Justice"
Did Che, Castro or Raul ever get wounded or shot in the revolution(s)?
Though not strictly a revolution, I think that Che narrowly missed having his head blown apart during the Bay of Pigs, I think a pistol misfired and the bullet missed him by about a centimetre.

[Wiesty]

well they pistol whipped him and spit on him and made him as dirty as possible, he was only in captivity for no more then 2 days mind u

[Wiesty]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:26 AM
Though not strictly a revolution, I think that Che narrowly missed having his head blown apart during the Bay of Pigs, I think a pistol misfired and the bullet missed him by about a centimetre.


thats freaky to think how many times we could of died in our life,
as well as che, his journey to revolution could of ended their at the bay of pigs

[red_ale]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:26 AM
Though not strictly a revolution, I think that Che narrowly missed having his head blown apart during the Bay of Pigs, I think a pistol misfired and the bullet missed him by about a centimetre.
Basically yes that is what happened. Che was stationed away from the action when the Bay of Pigs event occured. Fidel put Che to the position (Western part of Cuba I believe) closest to America to stop their attack if that so happened. Well Che saw no action because the fighting was actually happening far away from him, but his pistol somehow fell out of its holster and fired. The bullet grazed his cheek and ear, according to the Jon Lee Anderson biography; a hair away from penetrating his brain. The graze left a scar on his cheek and he wore his "gunshot wound" proudly.

Another interesting little fact: After the fighting was all over at The Bay of Pigs, Che picked up Alberto Granado and drove out to Playa Giron where Fidel was stationed. It was currently chaotic; there was jeeps running every direction, soldiers looking for fugitives who fled into the swamp, and many POWS being rounded up. When one POW spotted Che he shit his pants and pissed himself. Che attempted to question the man, but the POW couldn't speak properly, too scared.

[Subversive Pessimist]

In the end, a deserter informed the CIA of Che's location. They captured him, tied him up, he uttered his last words, "Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man!", was shot in the heart, and I believe he was buried next to an airstrip.

He was actually shot in the lower body, so it wouldn't look like he was executed. I think he got 3-4 shots in the legs, and they let him die, slowly.

I've heard some rumours, that when he was found, he said something like: "I surrender. I am more worth live, then dead. I am Che Guevara!"

The person who said this claimed that he said so, maybe because he had some fancy plan.. Do you know if this is true?

In the Bolivian diary, he was also aware of that Green Berets and I believe he said, Rangers too, were in Bolivia, fighting against him.

[Karo de Perro]

I was ask concerning this idea of Che perhaps being set up nd sold out as it were,I feel very strongly that this was in fact the case and as such the finger points even to those who otherwise would be least suspected.

For a price a friend would betray a friend and oftentimes vanity leads one to sacrifice their nearest and dearest.

Lets speak openly and honestly here,I see no cause that men should be pervausive or outright deceptive in such communications,besides,if all one can do is speak lies as a means to gain support then really what value is such support to begin with.

If by now those viewing this post have not made the connection with what I wish to imply then I shall speak even more plainly ... suspect numeral uno is none other than Fidel himself.

Afterall Fidel had all prior knowledge to the Bolivian campaign as well as progress reports from the field to some extent,moreover,can it be said with complete confidence that the Bolivian expedition was entirely Che's idea or could he been spurred on towards this by others?

Why do I make such an allegation? ... consider,Che possessed a near mythic prestige in Cuba and due to such enormous popularity its quite possible that el presidente Castro felt treatened by this,its like the old Bible story of David and king Saul wherein the people shouted 'Saul has killed his thousands and David his tens of thousands,trust me in this - friends are not immune from being aroused by jealousy when they feel that a friend,no matter how dear,is getting the attention that they themself crave.

Of course given Che's natural instinct for guerilla warfare and hunger for adventure Fidel or 'whomever' would have known that the Bolivian campaign wouldve been an easy sell to Che.

Moving onward from this I will now mention another aspect of this incident,the idea that Che was viewed by Moscow as being a Maoist and moreso a Trotskyite by his conviction of permanent revolution,in this both the Kremlin as well as Fidel would have considered Che's stance in this matter as a threat to the idea of socialism in one country only .. which equates to the desire of a tyrant to secure and maintain his own personal kingdom under the guiese of a supposed socialist state.

What,to me,doubtlessly occurred in this cloak and dagger operation was that both Fidel and Moscow covertly leaked information to the U.S. concerning what was taking place in Bolivia,this they did indirectly by co-ops which the U.S. believed to be people alligned against Cuba and the USSR thus making the CIA oblivious to the reality that they were in effect weilding the sword for their enemies.

Again,this same phenomenon is expressed in the Bible story regarding how king David,after sleeping with one of his own soldiers wife proceeded to have this soldier sent to the forefront of the most severe fightin in order that this man should be killed by the sword of Davids enemies,do understand that I in no way wish to appear as a Bible-thumper by these references,rather I take hold of wisdom and discernment regardless its source.

Are those things I have written fact? - NO! ... however,for me they do carry great validity in that I am convinced that there were dark forces at play insomuch that anyone closely connected to Che is by no means exempt from suspicion.

Do I then say unquestionably that Fidel actively took part in Che's demise? - NO! ... however,I do consider it likely that he could have very well taken part in such though,at the end of the day,I sincerely hope that it was someone other than Fidel or Raul.

Still,one must realize that even those whose initial goals are most just,men who set out to right great wrongs,oftentimes become the very thing they at first sought to destroy,that the slayer of the dragon becomes himself the dragon.

This has been the case over and over in concerns of great liberators such as Napoleon,the Bolsheviks,Mao and his guerilla fighters,etc ... that a party overthrows an unjust government merely to replace it with their own repressive regime.

This then is my overview of the Bolivian ordeal and I welcome any and all criticisms of the same.

[All My Stitches Itch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 10:55 AM
AMSI, holy shi... In the neck? Was it just a little flesh wound or a direct hit?

The guy next to him was shot in the chest and a bullet ricocheted of a box ammunition and hit him in the neck. he thought he was mortally wounded and went into shock, but Juan Almeida snapped him out of it and they escaped.
it was only superficial.

[Colombia]

Why would Fidel rescue Ernesto from Congo when the South Africans were gaining on Ernesto?

Ernesto refused to go back to Cuba and talked about going off to start a revolution in Argentina.Such an idea was absurb at the time so he sent Ernesto to Bolivia instead.Seems like Fidel was trying to help Ernesto.