Required Reading For All Commie Pukes

[Capitalist Imperial]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125247,00.html


Read it, acknowledge it, and concede, pukes.

[DaCuBaN]

I fail to see what there is to concede... I hold Fox news in nothing but disdain, and the fact that they would publish what amounts to no more than an ego-massage does nothing but to further this point.


Her message informed him that Iraq was once again a sovereign nation. He smiled and instinctively wrote, "let freedom reign," and passed it back. Those three words say a lot about the man and the country he leads

I find it deeply ironic that GWB considers Iraq to be 'free' when they are not yet truly under their own control, and the system they have been 'granted' is not yet democratic, and will at best become representative. Doesn't say much for sovereignty really ;)


[The Declaration of Independence] created something that was then unique on the planet earth: a country based on the concepts of individual liberty, private property and democratic government. Since then, the people of this nation have taken great risks to offer others the hope of that same freedom.



It's all good and well basing your country on concepts, but words are hollow and meaningless - Their actions speak volumes about 'freedom' and their government is merely representative, not democratic. 1/3 isn't a particularly good score...


During the last century, Americans rescued Europe from German domination in World War I. Twenty-three years later, we again went to war — and more than 400,000 Americans died saving the world from the murderous rampages of Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Hideki Tojo. And for the next 45 years during the "Cold War," America sent its sons and daughters into harm's way to stem the tide of totalitarian communism. Now, we're confronted by yet another form of tyranny and terror: radical Islamic Jihadism

Bigotry is always nice to see in journalism of course. When will people learn that it is not ideas that are the enemy, but the minds of those who misconstrue them. Trying to rid the world of specific ideals is much like prohibiting alcohol on the grounds that some people can't handle their drink - proposterous!


Yet, despite this dramatic progress critics, from Paris to the American Left, complain that these steps are inadequate or too slow in coming

This I will allow concession to be made on - We can't expect overnight action on everything, and we failed to mount sufficient opposition to prevent the problem occuring, hence we have no right to complain on this front.


Yet, with the exception of Great Britain, little but lip service has been proffered by most of those in "Old Europe" who were liberated by American blood.

The US sat back and profited from both world wars, leaving the men and women of Europe that they are so proud of saving to die.


Oliver North is a nationally syndicated columnist and the founder and honorary chairman of Freedom Alliance (http://www.freedomalliance.org/)

[fernando]

FOX news <_<

[Vinny Rafarino]

"no spin"

:lol:

The world takes Oliver North about as seriously as we take you.

[Daniel Karssenberg]

This makes as much sense as having some Communist give you an article from the Cuban state&#39;s newspaper that Cuba is a democracy...

[ComradeRed]

FOX News is fascist propaganda crapola (its not good enough to be considered crap&#33;)

[ComradeRed]

HEY&#33;&#33;&#33; After reading the article, I am offended&#33; The US intervened frequently in the turkish elections&#33; How do I know? I AM TURKISH, you bastard&#33; My family lives there&#33; THe election was a big fraud&#33; Just like the 2000 elections.

I&#39;ve got a good mind to go out and join a club and beat you over the head with it.

[Commie Girl]

:wacko: Oliver North spouting off about "freedom" and "democracy"?

Noone takes anything he says seriously....

"During the last century, Americans rescued Europe from German domination in World War I."

Yes, they seem to believe that they are responsible for "saving" Europe, when in fact the U&#036; didn&#39;t enter either War until their own interests were threatened&#33; Tell this to the British, Canadians, and French&#33;

There also seems to be a major revision of histroy...Germany was a democracy long before the U&#036; supposedly help "create" it, Hitler was democratically elected by a Sovereign Nation.

[Wenty]

The head of Fox is a Bush supporter&#33;

There is nothing new in that article merely the usual rubbish that gets churned out when the left criticises America&#39;s illegal foreign policy. I&#39;m glad America entered World War 1and 2. I&#39;m glad they sent so many troops to help in the fight against fascism. My qualms with America start when they fund terrorists and commit terrorist acts themseleves. When they undermine and overthrow democracy for their own economic means.

I&#39;ve emailed Fox telling them this as well.

[guerrillaradio]

Mr CI, do you realise that under Iraqi law, it is now almost illegal to unionise?? Especially in the oil industry, which is Iraq&#39;s resource, let&#39;s not forget...

Do you realise that the Iraqi minimum wage is approximately half of the average Iranian sweatshop wage (ie pretty fucking low)??

Moreover, the US has only spent 2% of the &#036;18bn supposedly set aside for Iraqi reconstruction, and it is estimated that &#036;4bn has "disappeared"...

And while Iraqi unemployment is at 30% (a conservative estimate), with only 15,000 people finding new employment (not the 250,000 promised), if people on the ground in Iraq are to be believed, the jobs are going in the same direction as the "reconstruction" contracts: the US and the Far East.

Some freedom...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 11:08 PM
Mr CI, do you realise that under Iraqi law, it is now almost illegal to unionise?? Especially in the oil industry, which is Iraq&#39;s resource, let&#39;s not forget...

Do you realise that the Iraqi minimum wage is approximately half of the average Iranian sweatshop wage (ie pretty fucking low)??

Moreover, the US has only spent 2% of the &#036;18bn supposedly set aside for Iraqi reconstruction, and it is estimated that &#036;4bn has "disappeared"...

And while Iraqi unemployment is at 30% (a conservative estimate), with only 15,000 people finding new employment (not the 250,000 promised), if people on the ground in Iraq are to be believed, the jobs are going in the same direction as the "reconstruction" contracts: the US and the Far East.

Some freedom...
I&#39;d have to look into that, but I&#39;m sure that it is just an interim measure until labor laws can be addressed.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 08:32 PM


It&#39;s all good and well basing your country on concepts, but words are hollow and meaningless - Their actions speak volumes about &#39;freedom&#39; and their government is merely representative, not democratic. 1/3 isn&#39;t a particularly good score...




Our actions definitely reconcile well with the concept of freedom, I don&#39;t know what you&#39;re talking about. maybe ytou should go ask France, Holland, Germany, and any other nation we helped liberate more than once in the 20th century. Oh yeah, make sure you ask South Korea as well. Don&#39;t forget to ask pretty much every western nation about how we were the wall standing between them and a Soviet invasion for just about the last 50 years. What do you think they will say?

I hope that their mempory of the 20th century isn&#39;t as fuzzy as many of the leftists here.

By the way, the USA is a "Democratic Republic". Not a straight democracy, never was, never really claimed to be. However, at state and local levels, we do have direct votes on issues, such as propositions and measures. Good examples of this would be prop 187 and the medical marijuana initiative in California, but there are thoudsands every election period across the nation.

That is a direct democracy, sir.

3 out of 3 as I see it.

[DaCuBaN]

Our actions definitely reconcile well with the concept of freedom

I was actually meaning internally: The patriot act; mandatory drug sentencing; police brutality. Or perhaps more imprisonment without out trial is the epitamy of freedom?

The US has long been known to &#39;have their cake and eat it too&#39; - after all, you&#39;re a spin-off from the old British Empire who practiced this for over a century.


By the way, the USA is a "Democratic Republic"

This is not freedom and democracy for all though, is it? There are admirable aspects to the US political system, but surely you&#39;re not an actual advocate of it? It leaves a lot to be desired - even surely from your perspective.


However, at state and local levels, we do have direct votes on issues, such as propositions and measures. Good examples of this would be prop 187 and the medical marijuana initiative in California, but there are thoudsands every election period across the nation

I won&#39;t pretend to be the authority on this, but doesn&#39;t the federal law take precedence over any state law? In this case there is always the possibility that an issue that was passed through directly democratic channels could be overturned through wholly undemocratic means.


3 out of 3 as I see it

Well... you would :lol:

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 10 2004, 11:16 PM
I&#39;d have to look into that, but I&#39;m sure that it is just an interim measure until labor laws can be addressed.
:lol: Yes, and I&#39;m sure that the Iraqi government will feel free to make their own decisions, since their country is now "soverign". Oh wait, the US governmnet still has veto power over any decision they make for an undisclosed amount of time.

Why is Oliver North talking about the constitution and freedom? During his career he broke federal law repedetly and threw the whole "democratic process" that he is yaking about out the window and pretty much did whatever he wanted to, including continuing to arm death squads in Central America and trading arms for hostages, even after he was told by Congress that he couldn&#39;t.

[Guerrilla22]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 10 2004, 11:23 PM
Our actions definitely reconcile well with the concept of freedom, I don&#39;t know what you&#39;re talking about. maybe ytou should go ask France, Holland, Germany, and any other nation we helped liberate more than once in the 20th century. Oh yeah, make sure you ask South Korea as well. Don&#39;t forget to ask pretty much every western nation about how we were the wall standing between them and a Soviet invasion for just about the last 50 years. What do you think they will say?

Okay, we did do good in World War 2, but to say that America is the country that goes around giving liberty to the world is a bunch of trash. The involvement and work to establish and maintain toltolitarian regimes in different parts of the world by the US far out weighs what we did in World War 2.

Remember the Shah, Ubico, Batista, Somoza, Marcos, Noriega and
pinochet? Oh yeah, the there was Reagan&#39;s support for the Apartheid govt. of South Africa, Bin Laden and Saddam.

[DaCuBaN]

The US sat for three years through bloody war, letting their so-called friends take the brunt, whilst charging through the roof for the supplies crossing the pond.

The US didn&#39;t &#39;do good&#39; in WWII - like every other conflict the country only got off it&#39;s arse once it had been attacked.


The governments of Germany, Italy and Japan, considering it as a condition precedent of any lasting peace that all nations of the world be given each its own proper place, have decided to stand by and co-operate with one another in regard to their efforts in greater East Asia and regions of Europe respectively wherein it is their prime purpose to establish and maintain a new order of things calculated to promote the mutual prosperity and welfare of the peoples concerned.

Furthermore, it is the desire of the three governments to extend co-operation to such nations in other spheres of the world as may be inclined to put forth endeavours along lines similar to their own, in order that their ultimate aspirations for world peace may thus be realized.

Accordingly, the governments of Germany, Italy and Japan have agreed as follows:

ARTICLE ONE
Japan recognizes and respects the leadership of Germany and Italy in establishment of a new order in Europe.

ARTICLE TWO
Germany and Italy recognize and respect the leadership of Japan in the establishment of a new order in greater East Asia.

ARTICLE THREE
Germany, Italy and Japan agree to co-operate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means when one of the three contracting powers is attacked by a power at present not involved in the European war or in the Chinese-Japanese conflict.

ARTICLE FOUR
With the view to implementing the present pact, joint technical commissions, members which are to be appointed by the respective governments of Germany, Italy and Japan will meet without delay.

ARTICLE FIVE
Germany, Italy and Japan affirm that the aforesaid terms do not in any way affect the political status which exists at present as between each of the three contracting powers and Soviet Russia.(1)

ARTICLE SIX
The present pact shall come into effect immediately upon signature and shall remain in force 10 years from the date of its coming into force. At the proper time before expiration of said term, the high contracting parties shall at the request of any of them enter into negotiations for its renewal.

In faith whereof, the undersigned duly authorized by their respective governments have signed this pact and have affixed hereto their signatures

Done in triplicate at Berlin, the 27th day of September, 1940

So even after it had become apparent that war was going to come to the US, they sat back for a further eighteen months (approx) - until they were attacked no less - before rushing to the aid of their suffering allies. Instead they milked them for all their worth for the first two years of the bloodiest conflict in living memory.

No, even in what many regard to be their &#39;glory days&#39; they were only ever out for #1

[Ortega]

Oliver North.

Does anyone here remember Iran-Contra?&#33;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair

[New Tolerance]

*Clicks the link.... looks at the top and realizes that it&#39;s a commentary piece

*thinks: "what is the point of showing a group leftwinged people a rightwinged commentary article? Further more, it didn&#39;t bring up any new information."

[(*]

What a lie&#33;&#33;
The note didn&#39;t inform him that Iraq was a sovereign nation. It read "Please suck my d&#33;ck" ..... and yes, Condi has one&#33;

[LuZhiming]

Required Reading for Capitalist Imperial

I find it hilarious that Oliver North of all people is talking this way about freedom and Human Rights. This is a man who had a decisive role in the Reagan administration&#39;s terrorist war against Nicaragua which killed 30,000-40,000 Nicaraguans, mostly peasents, which continued even after the Sandinistas being Democratically-elected in 1984, halted the advancements of the Sandinistas, and ended with a fraud election installing a government whose economic policies made Nicaragua even more miserable than it was during the war.


Her message informed him that Iraq was once again a sovereign nation. He smiled and instinctively wrote, "let freedom reign," and passed it back. Those three words say a lot about the man and the country he leads.

What sovereignty is he speaking of? Iraq is virtually the same as it has been for months. An American hand-picked government is in power while U.S. forces continue to occupy the country and control most of Iraq&#39;s security forces. That&#39;s hardly what any serious person could call sovereignty.


Two hundred and twenty-eight years ago, a committee of five patriots, headed by a farmer from Virginia, prepared the final draft of a radical document. On the morning of July 4, they presented the results of their work to the body that had set them to the task: the Second Continental Congress.

That same group of patriots later ordered the destruction of Iroquois civilization, and did so by burning all crops and homes in sight, massacering indiscriminately, and forcing numerous others into detention and slavery.


The larger group made just 86 changes in Thomas Jefferson&#39;s "fair draft" and then, pledging "to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor," all 56 members signed their names to this Declaration of Independence. In so doing, they created something that was then unique on the planet earth: a country based on the concepts of individual liberty, private property and democratic government.

The Declaration of Independence was a funny document. One of the leading charges in it against the British government was its as it said, forcing the "Indian savages" against the colonists, whose known way of warfare was brutal and indiscriminate. Of course, the founding fathers knew very well that that was a complete lie, it was their armies whose favorite tactic was to wait until all men left Native American villages, and then they would charge into the villages to massacre all of the women and children. Native Americans are the ones who actually originally saved the colonists from starvation by giving them agricultural tips, a decision which would prove to lead to their own destruction. Not to mention any of the rights supposedly guaranteed in the Declaration of Independence to people were made in a way so as not to include Native Americans or Blacks. We should keep in mind that Thomas Jefferson did not agree with the idea of private property, at least in the manifestation it took, that&#39;s why he was left out of the Constitutional Convention. If you actually read the Constituional Convention documents, Madison openly said that the point of what he called Democracy was to protect the property of the rich from the masses. Most of the founding fathers agreed, Alexander Hamilton similarly referred to the masses of the population as the "Great Beast." So much for individual liberty. Finally, the early elections in the United States were meaningless, only a small White class was able to vote at all, most of the population couldn&#39;t, and that&#39;s not even counting Native Americans, Blacks, and political prisoners, who had no rights. The U.S. was founded on deception, exploitation, and genocide, not freedom.


America&#39;s commitment to human liberty has required extraordinary sacrifice from the people of this land. Yet, the lives, blood and treasure expended in this quest have made it possible for hundreds of millions of oppressed and subjugated people around the globe to live in freedom from despotism.

It&#39;s pretty ironic that he actually uses the word &#39;subjugated.&#39; As Oliver North knows very well, there was a lot of subjugation and then some being committed against millions right at home in the United States against the Native American population. Although one must admit that &#39;subjugation&#39; is a bit of an understatement, extermination would be the better term. This statement by Oliver North is at best, comparable to Holocaust denial, although probably more along the lines of praising the Holocaust. The atrocities of the founding fathers are rather like those of Hitler&#39;s, and in fact that&#39;s where he later would get his inspiration.


During the last century, Americans rescued Europe from German domination in World War I.

Nice way to skip most of U.S. history. Let&#39;s not forget that before World War I the U.S. exterminated the indigenous population, conquered Puerto Rico, Guam, Cuba, and the Philippines killing 500,000 Filipinos, fought the Barbary Wars, had 13 military interventions against Nicaragua, fought nationalists in Chile, broke off Panama from Colombia and sent troops constantly to ensure the continued U.S. annexation of the Panama Canal, sent troops to crush the Boxer Rebellion in China, conquered Hawaii and Samoa, crushed revolutions in the Dominican Republic, repeatedly intervened to ensure fraud in Cuban elections, occupied Honduras numerous times, intervened in Argentina, intervened in Korea, repeatedly sent troops to punish Haitians for their attempts at liberation, conquered a third of Mexico, and crushed numerous strikes at home. Even if you want to talk about World War I, it&#39;s really a joke to attempt to paint that out as a war of liberation. The British were far worse than the Germans, their atrocities around the world are still the most horrendous of any empire in history to this day. It&#39;s openly admitted now that World War I was merely a war of empires against eachother for colonial power.


Twenty-three years later, we again went to war — and more than 400,000 Americans died saving the world from the murderous rampages of Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Hideki Tojo.

Somehow the history between World War I and II is forgotten. Perhaps someone&#39;s memory needs to be refreshed. In between World War I and II, the United States sent troops to crush independence rebels in China twice, repeatedly sent troops to break up elections, demonstrations, and strikes in Honduras and Panama, fought rebels in Mexico, attacked unionists in Guatemala, battled Mustafa Kemal&#39;s rebel forces in Turkey, sent ships to El Salvador during the Marti revolt to help dictator Cristiani control the country, intervened in Yugoslavia to aid Italy&#39;s monarchy in crushing Serbian rebels, and again, crushed numerous strikes and demonstrations at home. On the subject of World War II itself, North&#39;s history lesson is mainly fiction. The United States was enthusiastic about Mussolini for years, and Hitler was described as a moderate between left and right as late as 1937. That claim that Hideki Tojo was behind Japanese Imperialism, and that Hirohito was just a puppet, is a myth made up by Douglas MacArthur and Hirohito himself. The point of the U.S. going to war had nothing to do with liberating the world from anyone. If you look at what U.S. planners actually said during these times, they didn&#39;t have any intentions of liberating anyone. The initial plan of the United States in regards to Germany was to stay out of the war and then become a colonial power when it ended, while controlling about half of Europe(Nazi Germany was going to have the other half). After the war started, it was decided that Nazi Germany would be defeated, and the U.S. would control Europe and the rest of the world. That was the whole point of the aid to Britain. Just take a look at it, it was given in a way to specifically ensure that Britain can never come even close to fully recovering, meaning remaining a colonial power, but enough so Germany could not conquer it. The same is true of the Soviet Union. Truman once said rather bluntly that if the Soviets appeared to be defeating the Germans(speaking after the German invasion of Russia), the U.S. should back the Germans, and if the Germans appeared to be winning, that the U.S. should back Russia. There was a massive debate among U.S. planners for a long time on whether to let Germany conquer Russia or not. On the matter of Japanese atrocities against their neighbors, the U.S. literally didn&#39;t care about those, as can easily be seen by U.S. actions during these atrocities and even after the war. If the U.S. was intent on freeing anyone they would have quickly joined the war early on, but for reasons stated above, they didn&#39;t, and forcefully refused to take part in Wordl War II. It wasn&#39;t until Japan attacked Hawaii, that the United States entered the war. And even after the war, the U.S. was happy with Japan committing atrocities against neighbors on behalf of the U.S. as well as backing and keeping fascists dictators like Francisco Franco of Spain and Antonio de Oliveira Salazar of Portugal in power as long as they were obedient.


And for the next 45 years during the "Cold War," America sent its sons and daughters into harm&#39;s way to stem the tide of totalitarian communism.

Basing the definition of the Cold War on the offical definitions, including this one, such an event never happened. But we can put that aside, and simply look at what the U.S. actually did during this time. The United States overthrew the populist Mohammad Mossadegh of Iran while keeping the dictatorial Shah in power and subsequently taking control of much of Iran&#39;s oil, terminated the Democratic Spring in Guatemala in 1954 and backing a series of dictatorships for the next thirty years making Guatemala have one of the worst Human Rights and poverty records in the world(with results that continue today, Guatemala is still a miserable country with meaningless elections and horrendous Human Rights abuses), helping South Korean dictator Syngman Rhee murder 100,000 South Koreans and crush local progressive forces right after World War II, launching a war against North Korea which killed about four million North Koreans and purposely destroyed every building in the country and subsequently the targeted bombing of dams, attempted to terminate Costa Rican Democracy twice, hired fomer Nazis as spies and terrorist agents and subsequently helped them escape mainly to Latin America, helped escalate and perhaps start a civil war in Greece which ended up with the progressive former anti-fascists resitance forces being crushed and Nazi collaborators and monarchists coming to power causing 1,500,000 deaths during the war and many more after that in concentration camps under the Greek dictators, launched a terrorist war against Nicaragua murdering 30,000-40,000 people, organized and trained the violent jihadi Mujahideen in Afghanistan to lure in Russia and overthrow the local progressive government, crushed the Huks in the Philippines and replaced them with a series of dictatorial governments, aided dictator Suharto in his genocidal atrocities in Aceh, West Papua, and East Timor, gave weapons to both sides in the Iran/Iraq War to increase casualties, organized the most extensive campaign of international terrorism against Cuba plus subjecting it to economic strangulation, sent troops to the Dominican Republic to ensure the Democratically-elected President Juan Bosche is not able to stay in office, launced foreign invasions and genocidal bombings in Laos and Cambodia which decimated the peasent populations, started the Vietnam War and killed 3 to 4 million people, directed Thai dictators in a "counterinsurgency" program of assassinations against local dissidents, ended the presidency and ultimately the life of Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende of Chile and replaced him with dictator Augusto Pinochet, overthrew Democratically-elected President Cheddi Jagan of Guyana, attempted to assassinate President Charles de Gaulle of France, organized the overthrow of the Iraqi leader Abdel Karim Kassem and replaced him with the Ba&#39;ath Party, aided in the assassination of Patrice Lumumba of the Congo and helped dictator Mobutu Sese Seko stay in power after numerous slaughters, attempted to assassinate Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru of India, backed Pol Pot in his fight against the Vietnamese and punished the Vietnamese for their liberation of Cambodia by subjecting them to sanctions and later an embargo, engaged in terrorist attacks against Libya, shot down four Iranian planes, perverted elections in Italy more than once, crushed an independence rebellion in Puerto Rico, aided the military forces in El Salvador while escalating a civil war in which 70,000 people were killed mainly by the U.S.-backed mercenary army of El Salvador, overthrew the Democratically elected President Joao Goulart of Brazil and replaced him with a serious of Neo-Nazi dictatorships, participated in Israel&#39;s merciless war in Lebanon which killed almost 20,000 people in ten months, attacked protestors in Panama, aided the South African Apartheid in its wars in the surrounding countries and South Africa itself, trained numerous armies in other nations in tactics of torture and terror, and backed over 80 dictatorships. The U.S. record against primarily the Third World during the period we ridicolously call the Cold War was horrendous.


Now, we&#39;re confronted by yet another form of tyranny and terror: radical Islamic Jihadism.

Which you can easily demonstrate by looking at U.S. foreign policy towards Saudi Arabia.


Like World War II and the twilight struggle against dictators espousing the ideologies of Marx, Lenin and Stalin, this too is a global challenge, fraught with danger for America.

There has never been, and will never be a dictator who represents the ideologies of Karl Marx. See above about the myth of the U.S. overthrowing dictators following Lenin or Stalin.


Now, a mere 15 months after removing Saddam Hussein from power, an American-led coalition has returned sovereignty to an Iraqi-selected interim government and placed that country on the path to free and democratic elections.

I have pointed out above how meaningless this &#39;sovereignty&#39; term is. Neither Oliver North or I know what will happen in Iraq in the future. It&#39;s amazing that he can use the assumption that Iraq is on the path to free and Democratic elections as "proof." He can&#39;t predict the future, he doesn&#39;t know what these supposed elections are going to be like.


The new government in Baghdad has now arraigned the former dictator and charged him with crimes against his own people and neighbors. He will face trial in front of his countrymen — a fate not offered to Benito Mussolini or Romanian despot Nicolae Ceausescu.

I would agree that Nicolae Ceausescu was a despot. Although I find these words rather ironic coming from a person serving under the Reagan administration. Ceausescu was backed by the U.S. for years until virtually the very end. He was called a "good Communist," in the words of Reagan himself.


Yet, despite this dramatic progress critics, from Paris to the American Left, complain that these steps are inadequate or too slow in coming. Apparently they have forgotten — or do not know — that it took four arduous years for Germany and seven for Japan to assemble sovereign governments after World War II.

Indeed it did, and anyone who has any dedication to preserving the historical record would know that the transformation of Japan and Germany to Democracy had nothing to do with the United States. They both became Democracies thanks to their own people. If you actually look at what happened, the U.S. backed Hirohito for years, and had always tried to keep former Nazis running the government of Germany(Which was successful for many years).


And even in the United States it was 12 years between Patrick Henry&#39;s cry of "Give me liberty, or give me death" and the ratification of the United States Constitution in 1787.

Actually it was a lot longer than that, as I have mentioned, the early U.S. elections were only to a tiny class of society.


What makes the new sovereign authority in Iraq all the more remarkable is that it has occurred while remnants of Saddam&#39;s former regime — and crazed radical Islamic Jihadists — are launching deadly attacks against the new government, Coalition Forces, Iraqi law enforcement and security personnel, and innocent men, women and children. These foes of freedom and democracy in Iraq are not "freedom fighters," or "resistance fighters." They are terrorists.

It&#39;s interesting to take note of North&#39;s contempt for factual material by looking at his generalization of Iraqi insurgents as one whole. It&#39;s like saying all U.S. soldiers are murderers who want to bomb Iraqi civillians and humiliate and torture Iraqi prisoners as they did in Abu Ghraib(actually it&#39;s worse). Way back in December 2003 the press was reporting the number of Iraqi resistance groups at about 44, and numerous ones have formed since then. As anyone who followed the press would know, a leaked CIA document also in December 2003 put the number of Iraqis fighting U.S. soldiers at 50,000. Hardly a group of Islamic Jihadis, this is a massive resistance among normal people in large part. Furthermore, most of the terrorist attacks on Iraqi civillians have been blamed even by U.S. authorities on one man, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, so North&#39;s assertions are baseless. And as I recall, it is U.S. forces who are reinstating former generals under Saddam Hussein. Those "remnants of Saddam&#39;s former regime" are serving the Americans, not fighting them. Last point on this, one of the main leaders involved in this struggle, Moqtada al-Sadr, has openly stated he wants to take part in elections, and we can speculate all we want about this, but this at least makes Oliver North&#39;s assumptions nothing more than that, there is plenty to suggest some of the insurgent groups like Moqtada al-Sadr wouldn&#39;t mind taking part in a free, fair, and meaningful election.


Iraq&#39;s new President Ghazi al-Yawer and Prime Minister Iyad Allawi have thanked America and its allies for the sacrifices made in placing Iraq on the path to democratic governance.

It&#39;s not a surprise that a couple of collaborators chosen out of a U.S.-picked collection of individuals will be quick to thank the U.S. for its actions in their country. But these leaders don&#39;t neccessarily represent the views of the Iraqi people. As polls which even Fox News has reported on have shown, the most popular person in Iraq is Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, and Moqtada al-Sadr is second. Neither of them were part of this group, and the latter has been firmly opposed to the U.S. invasion. And in other news, one of the first actions of this "sovereign government" has been to give themselves the right to declare martial law. They&#39;re truly heading on the path to Democracy.


Yet, with the exception of Great Britain, little but lip service has been proffered by most of those in "Old Europe" who were liberated by American blood. Their lack of gratitude — and foresight about the threat they face — is palpable.

Funny how a person who claims to stand for Democracy is so harshly criticizing countries who followed the will of the overwhelming majority of their population and stayed out of the war in Iraq. It&#39;s just another demonstration of how much Oliver North really cares about Democracy.


Those who celebrated America&#39;s 228th Independence Day on lonely outposts in Afghanistan and Iraq are a magnificent reflection of who we are as a people.

Maybe, but this propaganda by Oliver North is a disgrace. As he knows very well, none of these mislead soldiers make U.S. policy. And seriously, Afghanistan has really been quite a pitiful display. The U.S. bombing of that country was ruthless, it killed thousands, and if you just check out Amnsty International or Human Rights Watch, the atrocities of the Northern Alliance warlords backed by the U.S. were like those of the Taliban. They engaged in looting, mass rapes of women and children, and killings. Women have not been liberated. There is still no Democracy. Hamid Karzai has spent most of his time hiding behind American bodyguards, although he has managed to carry out his first execution. Drug trafficking has increased to a high level again, and bandits have taken advantage of the lack of stability to attack locals with impunity. The future doesn&#39;t look too bright I&#39;m afraid.


Ok, now that that nonsense is out of the way, does anyone have a real arguement for this war? They have just been so incredibly weak, an informed ten year old could rebut them.

[insurgency03]

i got three words for u [SIZE=7]FUCK FOX NEWS

i cant believe they even call themselves fair and balanced, do u know who owns that fascist news channel: none other than the evil, the insidious, the terrible rupert murdoch a man without regard to any1 but his white ass.

[Raisa]

The news would be more concerned with pleasing its shareholders then telling us everything important.

[The Sloth]

LuZhiming, thank you, that was brilliant.

I would like to see the patriots reply to this point, specifically:

Basing the definition of the Cold War on the offical definitions, including this one, such an event never happened. But we can put that aside, and simply look at what the U.S. actually did during this time. The United States overthrew the populist Mohammad Mossadegh of Iran while keeping the dictatorial Shah in power and subsequently taking control of much of Iran&#39;s oil, terminated the Democratic Spring in Guatemala in 1954 and backing a series of dictatorships for the next thirty years making Guatemala have one of the worst Human Rights and poverty records in the world(with results that continue today, Guatemala is still a miserable country with meaningless elections and horrendous Human Rights abuses), helping South Korean dictator Syngman Rhee murder 100,000 South Koreans and crush local progressive forces right after World War II, launching a war against North Korea which killed about four million North Koreans and purposely destroyed every building in the country and subsequently the targeted bombing of dams, attempted to terminate Costa Rican Democracy twice, hired fomer Nazis as spies and terrorist agents and subsequently helped them escape mainly to Latin America, helped escalate and perhaps start a civil war in Greece which ended up with the progressive former anti-fascists resitance forces being crushed and Nazi collaborators and monarchists coming to power causing 1,500,000 deaths during the war and many more after that in concentration camps under the Greek dictators, launched a terrorist war against Nicaragua murdering 30,000-40,000 people, organized and trained the violent jihadi Mujahideen in Afghanistan to lure in Russia and overthrow the local progressive government, crushed the Huks in the Philippines and replaced them with a series of dictatorial governments, aided dictator Suharto in his genocidal atrocities in Aceh, West Papua, and East Timor, gave weapons to both sides in the Iran/Iraq War to increase casualties, organized the most extensive campaign of international terrorism against Cuba plus subjecting it to economic strangulation, sent troops to the Dominican Republic to ensure the Democratically-elected President Juan Bosche is not able to stay in office, launced foreign invasions and genocidal bombings in Laos and Cambodia which decimated the peasent populations, started the Vietnam War and killed 3 to 4 million people, directed Thai dictators in a "counterinsurgency" program of assassinations against local dissidents, ended the presidency and ultimately the life of Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende of Chile and replaced him with dictator Augusto Pinochet, overthrew Democratically-elected President Cheddi Jagan of Guyana, attempted to assassinate President Charles de Gaulle of France, organized the overthrow of the Iraqi leader Abdel Karim Kassem and replaced him with the Ba&#39;ath Party, aided in the assassination of Patrice Lumumba of the Congo and helped dictator Mobutu Sese Seko stay in power after numerous slaughters, attempted to assassinate Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru of India, backed Pol Pot in his fight against the Vietnamese and punished the Vietnamese for their liberation of Cambodia by subjecting them to sanctions and later an embargo, engaged in terrorist attacks against Libya, shot down four Iranian planes, perverted elections in Italy more than once, crushed an independence rebellion in Puerto Rico, aided the military forces in El Salvador while escalating a civil war in which 70,000 people were killed mainly by the U.S.-backed mercenary army of El Salvador, overthrew the Democratically elected President Joao Goulart of Brazil and replaced him with a serious of Neo-Nazi dictatorships, participated in Israel&#39;s merciless war in Lebanon which killed almost 20,000 people in ten months, attacked protestors in Panama, aided the South African Apartheid in its wars in the surrounding countries and South Africa itself, trained numerous armies in other nations in tactics of torture and terror, and backed over 80 dictatorships. The U.S. record against primarily the Third World during the period we ridicolously call the Cold War was horrendous.

All this information has been floating around my head, and now someone has actually articulated it.

[DaCuBaN]

Yeah, great post Lu. Close thread, nuff said to be honest.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 08:51 PM
Yeah, great post Lu. Close thread, nuff said to be honest.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Saint-Just]

You really need to be educated further. The article is irrelevant. Communists subscribe to Marxist philosophy i.e. a specific world view. The Marxist world view is different to that of the bourgeois-liberal world view. Therefore, one can declare Iraq democratic but that does not give any credence to a positive state-of-affairs in Iraq since Marxists have a different idea of what democracy is and reject the liberal notion of democracy as an ideal.

The article that you gave a link to is not required reading for a communist at all. It is not propaganda, it is all truthful. However, the writer of that article had an entirely different perception on societies and humanity.

[RedCeltic]

Oliver North Is a fucking tool, and a joke&#33; He is lucky not to be in prison for war crimes. Capitalist Imperial may still be wet behind the ears, yet I remember and I&#39;m sure Comrade RAF and others still remember him sitting in front of the Iran Contra investigation chanting "I plead the fifth" over and over again for hours like it was going out of style.

A person has to be completely ignorant of the history of US Foreign policy from 1980&#39;s to today to take anything that man has said seriously... and the fact that something this tool has written was published by FOX... reflects quite poorly on Rupert Murdock.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Plead the fif..

Clap, clap.

Plead the fif..

Clap clap.

On, two, three, four....

Feeeeeeeeif&#33;

[dopediana]

luzhiming, that would be tough for howard zinn to top.

but to claim there&#39;s no spin...... honestly, just the imagery and word selection of oliver north is wishy washy enough to make me want to vomit.

[DaCuBaN]

might I suggest you copy and paste that and then follow this link (http://mailto:[email protected]) ? I would be intruiged to see if they just ignored it.

[Xvall]

Lmfao. Olliver North?

Lol. I say that C.I. gets the award for the funniest post ever.

Olliver North&#33; You crazy kids&#33;