T_SP
9th July 2004, 21:20
Here is a transcript of an interview of Nick Griffin (BNP Leader) Know you enemy!!
NB: THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT
RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT: BECAUSE OF
THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES
OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS
ACCURACY.
.................................................. ......................
PANORAMA
EXTRACTS FROM INTERVIEW WITH NICK GRIFFIN
DATE: 22:10:01
.................................................. ......................
Immigration/Repatriation:
N.G. So we're still the party which opposes the imposition of a multiracial
society on this country. Where we have changed is that the British
National Party say 3 years ago had what was.. had become a wholly
unrealistic policy of compulsory repatriation of all non-whites and
their descendants. We've looked at that and feel that's neither
possible nor fair nor achievable. But we still believe that the British
people don't want mass immigration which is still happening at the
present rate... at present. There's approximately 10 times the level of
immigration into Britain now than there was when Enoch Powell
became famous for talking about the problem, and we think that
should be stopped. So we're here to stop immigration, to dismantle
the various ways in which the British people are discriminated
against and made second-class citizens. We believe everybody
should be treated equally in this country and we'd like to see a
significant number of non whites go back to the lands of ethnic origin
if they want to. If they want to we'll help them.
INT So it's voluntary repatriation. You've left behind your old policies of
compulsory repatriation?
N.G. Yes, completely.
.................................................. ......................
FAIR:
INT Well we've looked at FAIR and it's operation in Tower Hamlets.
We've spoken to Dave Hill, your organiser there. But the problem is
that Mr Hill claims that he's helping all these people but he doesn't
seem to have any records and he can't actually give us any evidence.
N.G. No, indeed, he is helping a lot of people.
INT A lot of people?
N.G. Yes, a lot of people.
INT Well he couldn't actually tell us who those people were.
N.G. Yes, and I'll tell you why in a moment. FAIR is embryonic. As with
most of the things we're doing at present, it's a very small scale
operation.
INT But it's been going for about 8 months.
N.G. Yes, and we have a lot to do and we're feeling our way as to how to
do these things. So with all our community politics operations by the
standards of the other parties where they're doing similar things we're
very small, but we're learning and we're growing. The key thing with
something like FAIR in particular is it's impossible for us to find in
an area like tower hamlets or some of the bad areas of somewhere
like Bradford. We've tried. We've tried to find people that we have
helped who are prepared to be shown on television and talked about
and their case is talked about. White people in those areas feel
themselves under a reign of terror quite literally. They are two scared
and if they are seen as being there with us talking about this issue,
they're literally afraid of having their houses petrol bombed. That's
why we can't give you people.
INT But it's very convenient to say to journalists we can't provide you
with any proof because people are too afraid. We ask for the proof,
we never see it.
N.G. Yes, but we can't help that. It's obviously from the reaction that we
got from journalists to FAIR and so on, and the reactions we get from
the local people, we know that we're onto a winner with it and we
know that it needs to grow. We're not.. having come up with the
idea, you're trying to imply that perhaps these people aren't really
there. Having come up with the idea, we're not then going to just sit
on the idea and not work with it because it is a winner for us.
INT But you're see we're not the only ones that think it isn't there because
the town hall in Tower Hamlets has never had anybody approach
them who Mr Hill has put in touch with them through FAIR. So if
the town hall is supposed to help people, and these reports are
supposed to be reported, they're not being reported, so the council
hasn't heard about them either.
N.G. The council in Tower Hamlets is a fanatically anti white left wing
council, so for one thing they're not going to ask any favours in any
cases.
INT But I think if they're asked if they've actually had anybody come to
them as a result of FAIR they would tell us, they would not lie and
say nobody had come to them.
N.G. Left Wing Labour and Liberal Councils lie through their teeth all the
time.
INT So you think the Council is lying.
N.G. Oh absolutely.
.................................................. ......................
Ethnic Liaison Committee:
INT Now you appointed onto your ethnic liaison committee, a Mr Rustem
who is half Turkish. That must have proved a bit of a problem for
you because your constitution says that nobody of non-British ethnic
descent can be a member of the party.
N.G. Yes. Lawrence was allowed to join about ten years ago by my
predecessor as an absolute special one off case for a lot of work he'd
done for the party. He's been a member ever since. So therefore it
doesn't present a problem.
INT So you had this one off case conveniently in the party, the only
ethnic member who you were able to make the head of your
committee. And why is it then that he didn't turn up at the Red
White and Blue Rally earlier in the year? I mean there is some
indication that your members aren't terribly happy about the fact that
Mr Rustem is a member of the party.
N.G. There's still a small proportion of the party which weren't happy
about this and they didn't know before he was a member, even
though he's been a member for 10 years. And basically I think they're
being daft about it and taking a point of principle to a totally illogical
extreme.
INT So you did have problems with people.
N.G. We had a few problems from that, from a tiny minority, yes. But
that's not why he didn't turn up. He didn't turn up because he was
working at the time. He's putting himself through college. He had
college work and particularly the summer time, he's got a job, and he
was put on a shift which he couldn't get off or lose the job, lots of
people have this. If you're in low paid bad temporary employment,
the employer says come here, and you have to come here or lose your
job and that was Lawrence's position.
INT You see we were told that we could also speak to Mr Rustem but
suddenly he wasn't available. Why was that?
N.G. As you'll know, if you've done your research, Lawrence features..
quite a major feature in the Guardian and Observer. He's happier
talking to the press, but again he's at say university which has a got a
quite a strong left wing presence in particular. He's in his last 6-9
months a 4 year university course. He doesn't want to foul it up and
have demonstrating left wing students at his final exams. So he's
reluctant to appear on Television until October.
INT So although we were told we could speak to him, and there really
didn't seem to be a problem, suddenly at the last minute there was.
N.G. He changed his mind. That's his prerogative.
.................................................. ......................
Branch Work/Stafford:
INT Going back to the Red White and Blue rally, you made a speech that
day and you made reference to Stafford as a place where the BNP
were gaining support. You talked about the plight of the homeless
and asylum seekers. Now what was your message then?
N.G. That in Stafford and many other places, even if we didn't have
asylum seekers there would be a homeless problem. But
nevertheless, when this country is playing host to tens of thousands,
scores of thousands, hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers and
new immigrants. Naturally that places a burden on the housing stock
which means that if they are in houses, some of our people are not in
houses.
INT We went down to Stafford and we met a BNP member who was
working with some of the homeless. He told us that there were 147
asylum seekers being housed by the local council. Is that the case as
far as you know?
N.G. I don't know.
INT Well that's what he told us. He told us very clearly there were 147
asylum seekers being housed by the local council, but the local
council said there was actually only one family being housed. I mean
these are just lies.
N.G. I think he probably felt, I don't know the circumstances but I think
you'll find.
INT Well the circumstances are he said 147 and there was just one.
N.G. I think you'll find for instance that the local authority will classify
people as asylum seekers until they've been accepted for residence
whereupon oh, all of a sudden they're not asylum seekers anymore.
As far as the council's concerned, as far as ordinary people, they are.
INT Well the council was quite specific, only one family had sought
asylum.. So where is the 147?
N.G. I don't know where the figure came from.
.................................................. ......................
Oldham:
INT: Why were you in a pub in Oldham when the riots were going on? I
mean why did you turn up at a pub? What was the point of that?
N.G. We turned up there because we had a call. We were campaigning in
the constituency. We had a phone call from someone local saying
there was a lot of white youngsters in this area who are being
harassed by the police which is very common in all multiracial areas.
The people who get harassed by the police most of all are young
whites. Of course the Liberal media aren't interested when it's young
whites. Nobody gives a damn because they're only whites. They're
working class white trash to you people so nobody goes along and
helps. We get a call saying that there's young whites being pushed
around for no good reason by the police. So we went down there to
see what was going on to be able to report on it, and also because if
Nick Griffin, who is moderately articulate and wears a suit and tie,
turns up and has a word with the police there's at least some chance
that they will back off a little bit and leave the kids alone. Now that's
1) good community politics and 2) it can defuse a situation.
INT But you turned up at...
N.G. So that's why we turned up.
INT But you turned up at a pub full of Combat 18 thugs and hangers on
and hooligans spoiling for a fight.
N.G. We turned up where we'd got a call to say that there's youngsters
being harassed by the police. We turn up there, we talk with them for
about 15 minutes. Two senior members of Combat 18 were there,
very hostile to me, one was very keen to put a bottle in my face. We
talked with a few of the actual local people there, the local lads, and
after that we left and carried on campaigning.
INT Why did you make no attempt to calm the situation?
N.G. We did.
INT Well you see the people who were there, the Combat 18 people and
the hangers on, say that they took from the conversation you had with
them, the message that you were tacitly encouraging them. "We're on
the same side" was the message basically.
N.G. Most definitely not.
.................................................. ......................
Race:
INT So it's important, obviously, the issue of race. Well you have
actually talked in private speeches about the importance of this to
you. I mean we've seen some speeches that you've given, for
example to extreme right wing nationalists in America, a St
George's Day speech. Now in that, you made it very clear to
those American extremists that you are trying to make the BNP's
message more saleable. You haven't given up on your principles
you were just concerned to present it in a different way.
N.G. We haven't given up on our principle that mono racial countries...
mono ethnic countries are more stable, it's far easier to preserve
human rights and freedom within those whereas multi-racial
societies always end up going right down the road of tyranny,
that's a matter of fact and it's a matter of our principle therefore
we wish to see, as near as possible, a mono-racial country. What
we have said, and it's a genuine change, is to say that that can't be
done by compulsion or by force and that the key factor to
preserving Britain as an overwhelmingly British nation with it's
own traditions and values is the stopping of any further
immigration. That alone would do the trick because the present
trend which is going to make us an oppressed minority in our land
within 60 years is largely a matter of continued mass
immigration... British people don't want... which British people
don't want and so we want to stop that. Now it's far better from a
publicity point of view and a P.R. point of view to say "all we
want to do is to stop immigration and encourage significant
numbers to go back home if they want to. That obviously is more
saleable than saying "every last one has to go".
INT So I mean you're clear, you are making your message more
saleable, you're not denying that.
N.G. Of course we're making our message more saleable, yes.
INT But your real policy is eventually to make them all go home.
N.G. No.
INT Because actually in that speech you say that perhaps one day the
British people might change their minds and say 'yes, every last
one must go'. That's what you're after isn't it, at the end of the
day?
N.G. Perhaps one day they would but as a matter of fact I don't think
they ever will actually.
INT But you see you make it clear in this speech that that's what
you're aiming for.
N.G. I would like to see, at the end of the day, that there are none here
at all.
.................................................. ......................
The Holocaust:
INT What is your position on the Holocaust then?
N.G. My position on the Holocaust is that it's a matter for debate
between historians, shouldn't be finished up in court, it should be
debated by historians, and that it's got nothing whatsoever to do
with politics in the 21st Century. It's entirely wrong that again
here come the BBC, you've got a party which is growing in
popularity because it stands on many race related issues where the
majority of British people stand, so therefore lets throw some mud
and lets pull out this thing. Let's forget that Nick Griffin's father
fought in the RAF during the Second World War against Hitler
and the Nazis, forget that, and just try to imply oh these people
they want to deny the Holocaust and that means, which is
incredible legal logic, that means they want another one and they
want to gas people. It's utter nonsense.
INT I'm simply asking you what is your position on the Holocaust. Do
you believe that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis.
N.G. I've no doubt that very large numbers were killed. No one
specifically says six million. It's described as a symbolic figure.
INT So you don't accept six million were killed. I mean would you
care to put a figure on the number you believe were killed?
N.G. No, I wouldn't' because I'm not a historian.
INT So you're not prepared to say how many but you don't believe it
was 6 million.
N.G. Nobody believes... no one who has actually studied it and none of
the official historians of the Holocaust, the..
INT I think that is an accepted figure actually, 6 million.
N.G. .. It's as a general figure. But fundamentally I regard it as quite
irrelevant and wrong that at a time when the British people are
going to be a minority in their own homeland in 60 years, in other
words we're going to be genocided because that's what it is, at that
time along come the liberal media with this big club marked
"Holocaust" and bash me over the head with it.
INT Yes, but you're not prepared to say how many you believe did die.
N.G. Because I don't know.
INT You see I think it's a yard stick for a lot of people when they're
judging whether a party is racist or not, or indeed has a problem
over the Holocaust, there's a yard stick that people use. What do
you believe.
N.G. I'm saying it's quite irrelevant. I don't know. I don't know.
NB: THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT
RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT: BECAUSE OF
THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES
OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS
ACCURACY.
.................................................. ......................
PANORAMA
EXTRACTS FROM INTERVIEW WITH NICK GRIFFIN
DATE: 22:10:01
.................................................. ......................
Immigration/Repatriation:
N.G. So we're still the party which opposes the imposition of a multiracial
society on this country. Where we have changed is that the British
National Party say 3 years ago had what was.. had become a wholly
unrealistic policy of compulsory repatriation of all non-whites and
their descendants. We've looked at that and feel that's neither
possible nor fair nor achievable. But we still believe that the British
people don't want mass immigration which is still happening at the
present rate... at present. There's approximately 10 times the level of
immigration into Britain now than there was when Enoch Powell
became famous for talking about the problem, and we think that
should be stopped. So we're here to stop immigration, to dismantle
the various ways in which the British people are discriminated
against and made second-class citizens. We believe everybody
should be treated equally in this country and we'd like to see a
significant number of non whites go back to the lands of ethnic origin
if they want to. If they want to we'll help them.
INT So it's voluntary repatriation. You've left behind your old policies of
compulsory repatriation?
N.G. Yes, completely.
.................................................. ......................
FAIR:
INT Well we've looked at FAIR and it's operation in Tower Hamlets.
We've spoken to Dave Hill, your organiser there. But the problem is
that Mr Hill claims that he's helping all these people but he doesn't
seem to have any records and he can't actually give us any evidence.
N.G. No, indeed, he is helping a lot of people.
INT A lot of people?
N.G. Yes, a lot of people.
INT Well he couldn't actually tell us who those people were.
N.G. Yes, and I'll tell you why in a moment. FAIR is embryonic. As with
most of the things we're doing at present, it's a very small scale
operation.
INT But it's been going for about 8 months.
N.G. Yes, and we have a lot to do and we're feeling our way as to how to
do these things. So with all our community politics operations by the
standards of the other parties where they're doing similar things we're
very small, but we're learning and we're growing. The key thing with
something like FAIR in particular is it's impossible for us to find in
an area like tower hamlets or some of the bad areas of somewhere
like Bradford. We've tried. We've tried to find people that we have
helped who are prepared to be shown on television and talked about
and their case is talked about. White people in those areas feel
themselves under a reign of terror quite literally. They are two scared
and if they are seen as being there with us talking about this issue,
they're literally afraid of having their houses petrol bombed. That's
why we can't give you people.
INT But it's very convenient to say to journalists we can't provide you
with any proof because people are too afraid. We ask for the proof,
we never see it.
N.G. Yes, but we can't help that. It's obviously from the reaction that we
got from journalists to FAIR and so on, and the reactions we get from
the local people, we know that we're onto a winner with it and we
know that it needs to grow. We're not.. having come up with the
idea, you're trying to imply that perhaps these people aren't really
there. Having come up with the idea, we're not then going to just sit
on the idea and not work with it because it is a winner for us.
INT But you're see we're not the only ones that think it isn't there because
the town hall in Tower Hamlets has never had anybody approach
them who Mr Hill has put in touch with them through FAIR. So if
the town hall is supposed to help people, and these reports are
supposed to be reported, they're not being reported, so the council
hasn't heard about them either.
N.G. The council in Tower Hamlets is a fanatically anti white left wing
council, so for one thing they're not going to ask any favours in any
cases.
INT But I think if they're asked if they've actually had anybody come to
them as a result of FAIR they would tell us, they would not lie and
say nobody had come to them.
N.G. Left Wing Labour and Liberal Councils lie through their teeth all the
time.
INT So you think the Council is lying.
N.G. Oh absolutely.
.................................................. ......................
Ethnic Liaison Committee:
INT Now you appointed onto your ethnic liaison committee, a Mr Rustem
who is half Turkish. That must have proved a bit of a problem for
you because your constitution says that nobody of non-British ethnic
descent can be a member of the party.
N.G. Yes. Lawrence was allowed to join about ten years ago by my
predecessor as an absolute special one off case for a lot of work he'd
done for the party. He's been a member ever since. So therefore it
doesn't present a problem.
INT So you had this one off case conveniently in the party, the only
ethnic member who you were able to make the head of your
committee. And why is it then that he didn't turn up at the Red
White and Blue Rally earlier in the year? I mean there is some
indication that your members aren't terribly happy about the fact that
Mr Rustem is a member of the party.
N.G. There's still a small proportion of the party which weren't happy
about this and they didn't know before he was a member, even
though he's been a member for 10 years. And basically I think they're
being daft about it and taking a point of principle to a totally illogical
extreme.
INT So you did have problems with people.
N.G. We had a few problems from that, from a tiny minority, yes. But
that's not why he didn't turn up. He didn't turn up because he was
working at the time. He's putting himself through college. He had
college work and particularly the summer time, he's got a job, and he
was put on a shift which he couldn't get off or lose the job, lots of
people have this. If you're in low paid bad temporary employment,
the employer says come here, and you have to come here or lose your
job and that was Lawrence's position.
INT You see we were told that we could also speak to Mr Rustem but
suddenly he wasn't available. Why was that?
N.G. As you'll know, if you've done your research, Lawrence features..
quite a major feature in the Guardian and Observer. He's happier
talking to the press, but again he's at say university which has a got a
quite a strong left wing presence in particular. He's in his last 6-9
months a 4 year university course. He doesn't want to foul it up and
have demonstrating left wing students at his final exams. So he's
reluctant to appear on Television until October.
INT So although we were told we could speak to him, and there really
didn't seem to be a problem, suddenly at the last minute there was.
N.G. He changed his mind. That's his prerogative.
.................................................. ......................
Branch Work/Stafford:
INT Going back to the Red White and Blue rally, you made a speech that
day and you made reference to Stafford as a place where the BNP
were gaining support. You talked about the plight of the homeless
and asylum seekers. Now what was your message then?
N.G. That in Stafford and many other places, even if we didn't have
asylum seekers there would be a homeless problem. But
nevertheless, when this country is playing host to tens of thousands,
scores of thousands, hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers and
new immigrants. Naturally that places a burden on the housing stock
which means that if they are in houses, some of our people are not in
houses.
INT We went down to Stafford and we met a BNP member who was
working with some of the homeless. He told us that there were 147
asylum seekers being housed by the local council. Is that the case as
far as you know?
N.G. I don't know.
INT Well that's what he told us. He told us very clearly there were 147
asylum seekers being housed by the local council, but the local
council said there was actually only one family being housed. I mean
these are just lies.
N.G. I think he probably felt, I don't know the circumstances but I think
you'll find.
INT Well the circumstances are he said 147 and there was just one.
N.G. I think you'll find for instance that the local authority will classify
people as asylum seekers until they've been accepted for residence
whereupon oh, all of a sudden they're not asylum seekers anymore.
As far as the council's concerned, as far as ordinary people, they are.
INT Well the council was quite specific, only one family had sought
asylum.. So where is the 147?
N.G. I don't know where the figure came from.
.................................................. ......................
Oldham:
INT: Why were you in a pub in Oldham when the riots were going on? I
mean why did you turn up at a pub? What was the point of that?
N.G. We turned up there because we had a call. We were campaigning in
the constituency. We had a phone call from someone local saying
there was a lot of white youngsters in this area who are being
harassed by the police which is very common in all multiracial areas.
The people who get harassed by the police most of all are young
whites. Of course the Liberal media aren't interested when it's young
whites. Nobody gives a damn because they're only whites. They're
working class white trash to you people so nobody goes along and
helps. We get a call saying that there's young whites being pushed
around for no good reason by the police. So we went down there to
see what was going on to be able to report on it, and also because if
Nick Griffin, who is moderately articulate and wears a suit and tie,
turns up and has a word with the police there's at least some chance
that they will back off a little bit and leave the kids alone. Now that's
1) good community politics and 2) it can defuse a situation.
INT But you turned up at...
N.G. So that's why we turned up.
INT But you turned up at a pub full of Combat 18 thugs and hangers on
and hooligans spoiling for a fight.
N.G. We turned up where we'd got a call to say that there's youngsters
being harassed by the police. We turn up there, we talk with them for
about 15 minutes. Two senior members of Combat 18 were there,
very hostile to me, one was very keen to put a bottle in my face. We
talked with a few of the actual local people there, the local lads, and
after that we left and carried on campaigning.
INT Why did you make no attempt to calm the situation?
N.G. We did.
INT Well you see the people who were there, the Combat 18 people and
the hangers on, say that they took from the conversation you had with
them, the message that you were tacitly encouraging them. "We're on
the same side" was the message basically.
N.G. Most definitely not.
.................................................. ......................
Race:
INT So it's important, obviously, the issue of race. Well you have
actually talked in private speeches about the importance of this to
you. I mean we've seen some speeches that you've given, for
example to extreme right wing nationalists in America, a St
George's Day speech. Now in that, you made it very clear to
those American extremists that you are trying to make the BNP's
message more saleable. You haven't given up on your principles
you were just concerned to present it in a different way.
N.G. We haven't given up on our principle that mono racial countries...
mono ethnic countries are more stable, it's far easier to preserve
human rights and freedom within those whereas multi-racial
societies always end up going right down the road of tyranny,
that's a matter of fact and it's a matter of our principle therefore
we wish to see, as near as possible, a mono-racial country. What
we have said, and it's a genuine change, is to say that that can't be
done by compulsion or by force and that the key factor to
preserving Britain as an overwhelmingly British nation with it's
own traditions and values is the stopping of any further
immigration. That alone would do the trick because the present
trend which is going to make us an oppressed minority in our land
within 60 years is largely a matter of continued mass
immigration... British people don't want... which British people
don't want and so we want to stop that. Now it's far better from a
publicity point of view and a P.R. point of view to say "all we
want to do is to stop immigration and encourage significant
numbers to go back home if they want to. That obviously is more
saleable than saying "every last one has to go".
INT So I mean you're clear, you are making your message more
saleable, you're not denying that.
N.G. Of course we're making our message more saleable, yes.
INT But your real policy is eventually to make them all go home.
N.G. No.
INT Because actually in that speech you say that perhaps one day the
British people might change their minds and say 'yes, every last
one must go'. That's what you're after isn't it, at the end of the
day?
N.G. Perhaps one day they would but as a matter of fact I don't think
they ever will actually.
INT But you see you make it clear in this speech that that's what
you're aiming for.
N.G. I would like to see, at the end of the day, that there are none here
at all.
.................................................. ......................
The Holocaust:
INT What is your position on the Holocaust then?
N.G. My position on the Holocaust is that it's a matter for debate
between historians, shouldn't be finished up in court, it should be
debated by historians, and that it's got nothing whatsoever to do
with politics in the 21st Century. It's entirely wrong that again
here come the BBC, you've got a party which is growing in
popularity because it stands on many race related issues where the
majority of British people stand, so therefore lets throw some mud
and lets pull out this thing. Let's forget that Nick Griffin's father
fought in the RAF during the Second World War against Hitler
and the Nazis, forget that, and just try to imply oh these people
they want to deny the Holocaust and that means, which is
incredible legal logic, that means they want another one and they
want to gas people. It's utter nonsense.
INT I'm simply asking you what is your position on the Holocaust. Do
you believe that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis.
N.G. I've no doubt that very large numbers were killed. No one
specifically says six million. It's described as a symbolic figure.
INT So you don't accept six million were killed. I mean would you
care to put a figure on the number you believe were killed?
N.G. No, I wouldn't' because I'm not a historian.
INT So you're not prepared to say how many but you don't believe it
was 6 million.
N.G. Nobody believes... no one who has actually studied it and none of
the official historians of the Holocaust, the..
INT I think that is an accepted figure actually, 6 million.
N.G. .. It's as a general figure. But fundamentally I regard it as quite
irrelevant and wrong that at a time when the British people are
going to be a minority in their own homeland in 60 years, in other
words we're going to be genocided because that's what it is, at that
time along come the liberal media with this big club marked
"Holocaust" and bash me over the head with it.
INT Yes, but you're not prepared to say how many you believe did die.
N.G. Because I don't know.
INT You see I think it's a yard stick for a lot of people when they're
judging whether a party is racist or not, or indeed has a problem
over the Holocaust, there's a yard stick that people use. What do
you believe.
N.G. I'm saying it's quite irrelevant. I don't know. I don't know.