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JohnRedDavis
9th July 2004, 00:58
The Anybody But Bush (ABB) sentiment has gripped wider and wider sections of the American Left--including the Democratic Socialists of America, the Communist Party USA, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Michael Moore and beyond who often describe Bush as a modern-day fascist pushing the world to the brink of collapse.

There are two questions to be asked: First, can Democrat John Kerry beat Bush? The answer to this is clearly yes, he can, but he probably won't at his current pace. The second question: Would Kerry's victory signal an end to Bush's agenda? The answer to this is also clear, John Kerry will not repudiate Bush's agenda.

Where Bush calls for unilateral war, Kerry calls for multilateral war. Where Bush openly strongarms weaker countries, Kerry supports quietly strongarming them. Where Bush calls Huge Chavez an authoritarian, Kerry one-ups him and demands his overthrow. Where Bush is uncomfortable with the political ramifications of Israel's apartheid wall, Kerry calls the "security fence" neccessary for peace.

On the domestic front, Kerry calls for restoring civil liberties, but doesn't have the guts to mention the words "Arab" or "Muslim" in connection with Ashcroft's racist witchhunt. Kerry supports "affordable healthcare", partly to be achieved through tax credits for the poor. Kerry promises to create 10 million new jobs--but hasn't yet spent a dime of his $1 billion fortune to fund any of these job creations as a demonstration of his committment to the unemployed.

Ralph Nader's independent campaign certainly has made many missteps--from ignoring the Green Party until the last minute to accepting the support of the racist Reform Party. But each passing day, Nader is directing more left-wing attacks not just as the Republicans but also at the other capitalist party in America: the Democrats. (Take note of campaign spokesperson Kevin Zeese's withering remarks after the Arizona Democratic Party exploited a loop-hole to keep Nader off the ballot in that state...)

From what I know of Nader's positions on the issues (he opposes the occupation of Iraq, but doesn't support an immediate withdrawal; he supports universal healthcare; he's chosen a former socialist Peter Camejo as his running-mate) I think the board left should dump John Kerry and back Nader instead.

Nader offers us the oppurtunity to expose the striking similarities between the two, wealth white-male Yale grads running for President. Two war-mongers with no respect for the common man and woman who share a deep committment to maintaining American power, and within society, the power of a tiny, privileged elite.

Naturally, as socialists, we have to recognize that even if Nader were miraculously elected President in November, the world would still be a messed up place. Only a serious, massive social movement can achieve many of the gains we stand for. A revolutionary socialist party numbering in the tens and hundreds of thousands will be crucial in any serious challenge to American capitalism.

Nader's campaign won't create either a large social movement nor a massive revolutionary left out of thin air. But his campaign holds out the possibility of acting as a stepping stone to a bigger, stronger left that understands are real enemies populate both capitalist parties, not just the more right-wing one.

So who here is going to stand up and be a part of Nader's campaign? Who here recognizes the potential the Nader/Camejo ticket represents in schooling people (in an albeit limited form) the sins of the Democrats and the real shallowness of bourgeois democracy?

Scottish_Militant
9th July 2004, 04:59
Nader and Kerry are a pair of anti-working class bastards, neither should offer any hope to the working class

h&s
9th July 2004, 08:41
Personally I fucking hate Kerry, so I don't give a shit who wins - they'll be a bastard whatever.

cubist
9th July 2004, 11:02
with edwards on board yes kerry will defeat bush, as long as 55,000 members of florida are allowed to vote

h&s
9th July 2004, 12:05
Which they probably won't, but they will probably get round that by stopping a load of democrats from voting in another swing state.

T_SP
9th July 2004, 17:41
I hope Farenheit9/11 will be really damning to Bushes campaign, Kerry stands a good chance especially since he hooked up with that other guy, Edwards is it?
But rather like UK politics it's the best of the worst really! Democracy rules don't it! Iraq look what you have to look forward to with democracy a 2 party system! Yeah!

FatFreeMilk
9th July 2004, 20:47
I'm beginning to see that there really is no hope even if Kerry won this election. I should have realised that sooner, but anyways, it doesn't really matter who wins this election cause in the end we're all gonna be fucked.

Pawn Power
9th July 2004, 22:16
it will be a close election, but it wont matter who wins anyway :(

RedRevolution
9th July 2004, 22:34
If Kerry wins he's still gonna have to clean up all this shit

DaCuBaN
9th July 2004, 22:35
Did you read the first post?

If Kerry gets in, it's quite probable that your glorious nation will spiral further down the plughole.

JohnRedDavis
12th July 2004, 19:56
Two observations:

1. Is Nader anti-working class?

I don't think that its quite true to say that Nader is anti-working-class. Nader is a middle-class reformer who wants a sort of "capitalism with a human face" free of large corporations (pretty utopian). Unlike socialists, he doesn't recognize the power or centrality of workers.

But because he isn't a worker doesn't make him anti-worker, just as Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky were not workers, either. And Nader, unlike a lot of labor leaders, calls for repealing the Taft-Hartley Act (the anti-union legislation that hobbles many strikes by restricting picketing activities.)

2. Are we screwed either way?

Definetly. The question, as Howard Zinn put it once, isn't who's sitting in the White House, its who's sitting in (protesting, demonstrating, etc.) Whether its the millionaire Bush or the billionaire Kerry, we'll have to fight back for our rights and dignity.

The only way we will repeal the Patriot Act, secure funding for jobs, stop the spiraling cost of education & healthcare, etc. will be to create a social movement that forces the government to act in our best interests.

Afterall, nearly every right achieved by women, minorities and workers in the 20th century came as the result of struggle. Women had to fight for the right to vote, workers fought for their unions and people of color fought long and hard to topple legal segregation. None of these advancements came because movements elected "good politicians"--abortion rights, OSHA and the Environmental Protection Agency were won under Nixon!!

My two cents, at least.

IPkurd
14th July 2004, 15:24
bush is probably gona win, i would want that kery ude to win but it dont bother me much no more, we are still gonna get our 9/11 part 2 some time in the future

AliasHandler
14th July 2004, 15:31
I'm proudly voting Nader.

He's clearly the best choice.

Sabocat
14th July 2004, 15:49
Can Kerry defeat Bush?

Who cares? It will make no difference. A billionaire battling a millionaire. I'm sure the working class is their top priority. :lol:


I wonder if it's too late to seek political asylum somewhere else.

VukBZ2005
14th July 2004, 20:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 03:49 PM
Can Kerry defeat Bush?

Who cares? It will make no difference. A billionaire battling a millionaire. I'm sure the working class is their top priority. :lol:


I wonder if it's too late to seek political asylum somewhere else.
I Agree Disgustapated - it's basically a Celebrity Contest between Capitalists -
It is better to not care about these elections and don't vote at all - a vote does
not make a difference in a Capitalist Society.

Stapler
15th July 2004, 00:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 03:31 PM
I'm proudly voting Nader.

He's clearly the best choice.
obviously.

socialistfuture
15th July 2004, 01:05
the question is not can kerry defeat bush but can we beat the both of them?

when will there be a leftest leader of the unites snakes of amerika? maybe that will be the final battle of a world revolution. i know there are socialist candidates running in the election and there are greens but they are too few - and u have kerry posing as a leftie or liberal - its sickening. i respect nader, but dont totally trust him - he is better than the other two.. but still he is no commie.

Abajo con el imperialismo
15th July 2004, 01:17
I dont belive in the U.S voting system it can be a complete fake,there was alot of corruption on the elections that got bush elected.

Guerrilla22
15th July 2004, 01:17
Nader isn't any better than Kerry. He accepts campaign contributions from Bush supporters, pro-lifers even from the Bush-Cheney camp themselves. Nader is absloutely a hypocrite for criticizing the dems for being corporate sell outs, when he's accepting help from the far right.

Leninist thug
15th July 2004, 01:48
Whoever thinks Kerry is the Godsend to Amerika or the world is deluding himself/herself. You should hear what Kerry's rich-***** of a wife is saying. She said shit like, (I'm paraphrasing her) "I know the horrors of communism. My family suffered when they took all our property." Boohoohoo. Doesn't she still own the whole Heinz ketchup fortune valued at $500 million -- $1 billion?

refuse_resist
15th July 2004, 02:27
Whether Kerry wins or not, it wont make a difference in what happens. For all we know, he'll probably try to attack Cuba or Venezuela, and who knows what that may lead too. Bush might try to put the entire country under marshal law within the next few months too, since they constantly say on the media that "terrorist might try to delay the elections". He will use this as a pretext to give himself another 4 years in office, henceforth making this country an official totalitarian dictatorship/monarchy/fascist state.

Nothing Human Is Alien
15th July 2004, 02:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 03:49 PM
Can Kerry defeat Bush?

Who cares? It will make no difference. A billionaire battling a millionaire. I'm sure the working class is their top priority. :lol:


I wonder if it's too late to seek political asylum somewhere else.
Agreed.

Ziggy
15th July 2004, 04:32
kerry has a good shot of winning with edwards (especially because edwards is a better speaker)

i see kerry as the lesser of two evils, and as far as nader goes i just cant see him as a good president. He has great ideas, stands for many good things but i just think he wouldn't be that great of a president.

Guerrilla22
15th July 2004, 05:28
Kerry is an elitist and his policies really aren't any different from those of Bush, but Nader is not equipped to be prez, he knows lebout foreign policy than Bush and really just spouts out ideas, without ever explaining how he'd pull them off. The truth is he doesn't know. I guess the best route is to get Bush out of office and then rip on Kerry.

Sabocat
15th July 2004, 13:09
Originally posted by Leninist [email protected] 14 2004, 08:48 PM
Whoever thinks Kerry is the Godsend to Amerika or the world is deluding himself/herself. You should hear what Kerry's rich-***** of a wife is saying. She said shit like, (I'm paraphrasing her) "I know the horrors of communism. My family suffered when they took all our property." Boohoohoo. Doesn't she still own the whole Heinz ketchup fortune valued at $500 million -- $1 billion?
I think one of her most revealing quotes was when asked about Chavez in Venezuela. She responded... "He's a problem"

It also happens that she is heavily invested in oil stocks. Big surprise.

This is a great article along the lines of this thread...

Kerry vs. Kerry-lite

By Stephen Gowans

Some advice to politically Left Americans. Most of you will cast a vote for John Kerry in November. There's not much doubt about it. And the reason you'll be backing Kerry is (a) you assume nothing could be worse than Bush, (b) the Democrats must be marginally better, because…well, because they're Democrats, © pressuring elites doesn't seem to be working and you can't think of anything else to do to stop "Bush's" drive to war, and (d) all those people who keep warning you about lesser evilism, can't seem to come up with anything better. So Kerry's your man. Oh sure, some of you admire Kucinich. Others even think well of Nader. But you know Kerry's going to be your go-to-guy come November.

Okay, fine. Leave it at that. When the time comes, head down to the polling station, and cast your vote. But in the meantime, shut up about it, because, just between you and me, you're starting to look a little silly, twisting yourself into knots to explain why it is that all the things you used to say about the Democrats being the same as the Republicans, no longer apply.

Of course, you're not going to give up talking the talk, even if you'll be miles away walking smack dab in the middle of your comfort zone. There will be no going cold turkey on all the leftist shibboleths you've been spouting for decades. Like Noam Chomsky, you'll still point to the Democrats as nothing more than the second business party [1], kind of like Thing Two to the Republican's Thing One. And you'll dismiss your go-to-guy as nothing more than Bush-lite, but hey, a lite beer's still better than the real thing when you're trying to get rid of those love handles, right?

Except I'm trying to figure out why everyone keeps saying Kerry is Bush-lite [2], rather than Bush in a different suit, or that Bush is Kerry-lite. Look at Kerry's record.

For one thing, as much as Bush, Kerry's part of the ruling class – that privileged, hyper-rich stratum of the population that organizes the domestic and foreign policy of the United States in its own interests. Not only have corporations showered more contributions on Kerry than on any other member of the millionaires' club that doubles as the Senate, he's also the richest millionaire in the club. He and his wife Teresa Heinz Kerry, boast a net worth of between $200 and $840 million [3].

But Kerry's wealth and his fitting into corporate circles like a CEO into an oversize corner office, isn't all that makes him, at best, a dead ringer for Bush. His policies do, too. Kerry proposes "a bold vision of progressive internationalism," a "tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership" in the tradition of such renowned peaceniks as Woodrow Wilson (WWI), Harry Truman (Hiroshima) and John F. Kennedy (Vietnam and the Bay of Pigs) [4].

Which may be why "Bush's" drive to war, which we're told, must be stopped by voting for Kerry, seems to be Kerry's drive to war, too [5]. After all, he voted for the war on Afghanistan, and supports the occupation [6]. He voted for the war on Iraq, and says "we now have a solemn obligation to complete the mission" [7]. He promises to add 40,000 troops to the Army and to spend more on defense than the Republicans, and more on homeland security [8]. Yeah, he sure sounds different from Bush, though not in any better way.

What's more, not only is he prepared to use military force unilaterally, ("People will know I'm tough and I'm prepared to do what is necessary to defend the United States of America, and that includes the unilateral deployment of troops if necessary," [9] he's prepared "to target and capture terrorists even before they act" and says he "will not hesitate to order direct military action when needed to capture and destroy terrorist groups and their leaders" [10] -- his own doctrine of preventive war.

Plus he says he will spend more on the National Endowment for Democracy [11], an organization that does openly what the CIA used to do covertly -- meddle in the affairs of countries like Haiti, Venezuela, Serbia and Cuba, that put the interests of the domestic population ahead of those of corporate America and investors who can boast net worths of hundreds of millions of dollars, like, let's see...well, like Kerry.

And in case you thought Kerry draws his advisors from a different stratum of the population than Bush does, you should know that his national finance chair, Louis Susman, is vice-chairperson of investment banking for Citigroup [12], and that his foreign policy adviser, Rand Beers, worked for Bush's National Security Council until about a year ago [13].

So explain to me how there's anything lite about Kerry?

My favorite Kerry quote is, "I could never agree with those in the antiwar movement who dismissed our troops [in Vietnam] as war criminals or our country as the villain in the drama" [14].

As for Iraq, if Kerry has a problem with Bush, it's that he didn't drag France, Germany and Russia into the war, preferring to strike a grabby, it's all mine, pose, rather than the "let's divide up the loot" approach the Democrats favor. Apparently, a gang rape is better than a rape carried out by a lone assailant, which, I gather, would make a gang rapist a rapist-lite, and therefore more worthy of our backing than a rapist who goes it alone.

But, for the record, Washington hasn't gone it alone in Iraq, managing to cobble together a coalition, though one lacking France, Germany and Russia, whose backing, in some perverted twist of reasoning, is supposed to have invested the rape of Iraq with legitimacy. Apparently, if you can lure other renowned rapists into a gang rape, it gives the whole sordid affair moral weight.

So, you'll have to excuse me, but I don't see any redeeming difference between Kerry and the current Kerry-lite occupant of the White House, not even a razor-thin one, at least not one that would lead me to conclude that Kerry's better, if only marginally. And if there's any logic in the Chomsky claim -- which he's been making for a while now -- that a minuscule difference can make a big difference (because the president has so much power, Kerry being even a little better than Bush can have fairly substantial implications), I'm afraid it has eluded me, as well. Is it just me, or is Chomsky staring to sound like those corporate PR flaks, who rather than not even trying to claim black is white, figure their forensic skills are so finely honed, that they can pull it off?

And has Michael Parenti, another high-profile American leftist, joined the club? Of course, he has. He, along with Chomksy and a gaggle of other left luminaries, wrote a "letter to the left" sometime late last year, that attributed the drive to war to Bush [15], as if wars of aggression haven't been a fixture of US foreign policy, and have suddenly sprung to life fully formed under the Bush administration's careful nurturing. They coyly avoided saying that the Left should vote Democrat in the next election, but the message was plain, and odd, coming from a number of people who say they're radicals, but then, maybe the meaning of radical changes in "times when you have to pursue coalition politics against the forces like the kind we're facing in the White House today" [16].

Not so many years ago -- four to be exact -- pursuing coalition politics wasn't deemed to be so important. Back then Michael Moore was directing a Rage Against the Machine video that depicted Al Gore as a clone of George Bush, and he, and a whole bunch of other US Left luminaries, were exhorting people to vote for the anti-clone, Nader, none more zealously than Moore himself. But what made impeccable sense back then, now seems to make no sense at all. Nader's been dumped faster than a date with active genital herpes, and Moore slunk back to the Democrats soon after the election, his self-imposed estrangement from his political home passed off as temporary insanity. Eventually, he decided to back the real Butcher of Belgrade, Wesley Clark, for a run at the Democratic nomination, touting a war criminal, on record as supporting the rape of Iraq, as the peace candidate the anti-war Left could really get behind.

My logic isn't infallible, but it seems to me if we accept Moore's claim that Al Gore is a clone of George W. Bush, then Gore as president would have been like Bush as president. In other words, there would have been a war on Afghanistan, which seems pretty likely given that 99 percent of the establishment, plus a fair number of liberals, think the whole affair was a pretty good thing. And we can be sure Gore would have carried out some kind of hostility against Iraq aimed at regime change, since, after all, this had been the policy of two administrations, one of which Gore belonged to. All of which makes one wonder why Moore has decided, along with Chomsky and Parenti, that coalition politics - - that is a vote for the Democrats -- has suddenly become vitally important. It's as if they're all kicking themselves for not voting for Gore when they had the chance -- even if he is a clone of Bush. Figure that one out. Maybe it's a poor grasp of logic. All of them talk about the necessity of voting for the candidate most likely to defeat the dangerous and repellent Bush, assuming quite unjustifiably that his successor won't be equally or more dangerous and repellent.

Radical, if it means anything, should refer to the root of a problem, and given that aggressive foreign policies have been pursued by every administration, and elsewhere in the world, by governments of various political hues, it seems highly unlikely that the drive to war is an anomaly of a group of people in power. It seems far more likely to be systemic, and therefore, the means to stop the drive to war must be systemic, as well. And yet the word, radical, it would seem, now means acting to replace one group of people drawn from the ruling class, who seek to shape the international security order in line with US export and investment interests, with another group of people drawn from the same ruling class, who aim to exercise US power boldly in the tradition of Wilson, Truman and Kennedy, to do the same.

Parenti, who talks a militant leftist line, says elections matter, but boasts that he coined the phrase "two-party monopolies" when he wrote, "Democracy For the Few," [17] which would kind of suggest Parenti was thinking that elections don't matter and a vote for the Democrats equals a vote for the Republicans, or if you extend the logic, that the drive to war does not belong uniquely to the Republicans but is owned by the monopoly. So you see elections don't matter, but they do matter. Figure that one out. I can't decide whether Parenti's starting to remind me of a guy who writes cryptic fortune cookie fortunes, or a retired Sprite salesman who's been claiming for the last four decades that Coke and Pepsi are the same, but has just put in a call to the regional Pepsi sales office demanding a Pepsi machine be installed outside his local public gym, because all that's there now is a Coke machine, and he can't stand the taste of Coke.

If the US, in Parenti's words, is a democracy for the few, dominated by the super rich like Kerry and Kerry-lite, what difference do elections make? At this point the exponents of the view that elections matter (well, at least this election matters) step forward and say, "Yes, but the Bush Republicans are a particularly vicious wing of the ruling class, and while the Democrats are only marginally better, they are better all the same, and therefore any project that seeks to put a Democrat in the White House is meliorative."

Let's ignore the reality that this is like saying death by guillotine is better than death by hanging, because a hanging death can be long, drawn out, and gruesome, whereas the guillotine is swift and certain and marginally more humane. By this reasoning we're supposed to support death by guillotine and believe we've accomplished something if we thereby avoid the hangman's noose. Either way, you end up with a nasty neck-ache, though on the bright side, it only lasts for a fraction of a second. But I'm not at all sure that the premise -- that the Democrats are marginally better -- is sound.

It's a canard, really -- part of the mythology of the Democrats. It may have been true seventy years ago, but you'd be hard pressed to show how any Democrat in power has differed from Republicans in power on economic or foreign policy since, and certainly now. And yet the fairy tale lives on, invulnerable to the facts. But then it serves a useful intellectual function - keeping Americans of the political left from wrestling with a vexing and troubling question: What the hell can we do, if we can't vote Democrat? Join the Communist Party? No, they're voting Democrat too.

What can be done, is to start to ask why it is that no matter who's in power, Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, and overseas, conservative or Socialist, foreign and economic policy always seems to head in the same direction: foreign policy is aggressive, and economic policy abets profit-making at the expense of wages, working conditions and social security, as it must. It doesn't seem to be the greed or ignorance or viciousness of a group of people in power that accounts for this uniformity of direction, any more than the greed or ignorance or viciousness of CEOs account for layoffs, which isn't to say that some CEO's aren't greedy or ignorant or vicious, only that it doesn't matter whether they are.

It's like baseball. It doesn't matter what the players think of the game, what their aims are, how they feel. All the matters is how many runs are scored. If they underperform, they're benched, sent down to the minors, or sent packing [18]. Imagine a CEO who decides to keep workers on, at the expense of his company's profits. He won't last long, suffering the corporate equivalent of being pulled from the game, banished to the minors, or cut loose from the team.

The same applies to leaders of governments in societies integrated into the global capitalist system, dominated materially and ideologically by the business community. If they lean to the Left, chances are they rose to power by progressively bartering away their principles for respectability and votes [19]. They can be counted on to pursue corporate interests at home and abroad. If by some unlikely confluence of events, they have risen to power without first arriving at a modus vivendi with the corporate class, their tenure is likely to be short-lived, and unquestionably rocky. Which means they too will end up like the baseball player who fails to add to the tally of runs -- given a one-way ticket to the bush leagues, or worst.

The news, in recent days, offers three examples of leaders who have been sent, or may soon be sent, to the showers.

South Korea's President Roh Moo Hyun has been impeached for a minor transgression, tantamount to being shot, according to Kim Dong Yune, a Seoul-based political analyst, for a minor theft [20]. Roh's real crime: He "came to power promising to be South Korea's Robin Hood" and "has embraced a left-leaning agenda over his year in office, including carving out a path more independent of Washington, establishing warmer ties with North Korea and China, and enacting new policies to empower the poor and rein in the rich." Roh "levied more taxes on the rich while spending billions of dollars on new government housing for the poor," [21] something that will never secure him a spot in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Haiti's Jean-Bertrand Aristide was forced from power by what was almost certainly a US-engineered coup. He angered the business community by raising the minimum daily wage beyond $1.30, and failed to privatize state-owned enterprises, a definite no-no if you expect to keep your place on the team roster.

Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, once ousted in a short-lived US-backed coup, hangs on to office despite the fierce opposition of Washington and a domestic business class backed by contributions from the National Endowment for Democracy. John Kerry questions Chavez's commitment to democracy, noting that Chavez is a friend of Fidel Castro [22]. By this reasoning, George Bush must be a military dictator because the US government counts Pakistan's Pervez Musharraf as an ally.

Chavez has implemented a program of land reform, imposed a ban on oil privatization, invited Cuban doctors into Venezuela's slums, and is using the state-owned oil firm, Pdvsa, to pursue a social spending program. That's why Washington, and Venezuela's wealthy, are trying to cut him loose from the team.

In a word, the problem -- and you had better send the kids out of the room before I say this -- is capitalism. Yeah capitalism, the C-word. Not neo-liberalism, or globalization, or the Washington Consensus, or corporate rule, or any of the other synonyms dreamed up to protect anyone from really striking at the heart of the problem.

Radical Left groups say they're opposed to neo-liberalism and against globalization. So are social democrats and a whole lot of liberals, even if social democratic and liberal governments have implemented neo-liberal policies. Like baseball players, it doesn't matter what they think of the game, only whether they play it. So, are some radical Leftists social democrats, or nothing but liberals in disguise? Based on Chomsky's and Parenti's support of Kerry, it's difficult to think they're not.

But if capitalism is the problem, rather than the policy choices of Kerry versus those of Kerry-lite -- which are indistinguishable in any important way, anyway -- what can be done? There's nothing that can be done now, but much that can be done on an ongoing basis, most particularly political organization under the direction of a party that has the energy, pluck and resolve to replace the existing system with one that doesn't depend on foreign expansion to resolve its dilemmas and sets the fulfilment of human requirements, not capital accumulation, as the primary purpose of economic activity

In the meantime, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to back a candidate who must, and will, carry on in the tradition of the monopoly (to use Parenti's words), with policies as grim, reactionary and aggressive, or more so, than those of the current occupant of the White House. At best, voting for Kerry is a pointless act, and at worst, a backward act, to the extent it fosters the illusion that change can be achieved by changing the name plate on the Oval Office desk. Contrary to the reigning mythology, doing something pointless is not better than doing nothing, where nothing means refusing to cast a ballot for either Thing One or Thing Two. And calling Emperor Moore's, Parenti's and Chomsky's strutting about without their clothes on, what it is, can't hurt either.

Link (http://www3.sympatico.ca/sr.gowans/kerry.html)

Lacrimi de Chiciură
15th July 2004, 18:18
Interesting thread. But, from 2004 to 2008 either John Kerry or George Bush is going to be the President of the USA. There's no way you could convince a majority of America to vote Green or Socialist so it comes down to Bush and Kerry. Who here likes George Bush? Raise your hands. No one? Might as well try Kerry then, seeing as how Bush has been the worst president in american history.

Abajo con el imperialismo
15th July 2004, 19:14
florida will vote against bush, but I think jeff bush has something planned as usual

chichi
20th July 2004, 17:36
Well, I guess he could...did Gore not defeat bush as well if it would not have ben for Georgie's bro Jeb and the Supreme Court? I don't know whether what Kerry would do would be better than what Bush is about to do but at least Dick Cheney wouldnot bevice president anymore...maybe Halliburton would hire him again and he could take Bushy along. However, certainly Kerry will not end big business in the US of A, sinc his wife is the widow of this ketchup guy...

Scottish_Militant
24th July 2004, 10:38
Reality Check: Nader Had Union Supporters Fired - Peter Camejo is a Capitalist - The Greens Will Vote Democrat in 2004
Working People Need a Labor Party!

In 1984, as reported by The Washington Post and the Columbia Journalism Review, Ralph Nader, the perennial Green Party presidential candidate, had the entire editorial staff of Multinational Monitor, a magazine Nader founded and funded, fired shortly after they applied to the NLRB for union recognition. Nader, thanks to his investment portfolio, was worth $2.9 million dollars in 2000.

Peter Camejo, the perennial Green Party candidate for Governor of California, is not just a bourgeois politician from exclusive Walnut Creek, but a politician who is a capitalist. Camejo, described by the San Francisco Chronicle as running a “$1 billion investment firm,” is the sole proprietor/owner of “The Camejo Group,” a brokerage firm with employees. Camejo also draws a salary as the Chairman of Progressive Asset Management, another investment firm, with 29 branches nationwide. Camejo has repeatedly promised to drop out of the California gurnatorial race in favor of his fellow plutocrat, right-wing commentator Ariana Huffington, should she eclipse him in the opinion polls. Meanwhile, Campus Greens are reportedly leaning towards supporting the Democrat Dennis Kucinich for President in 2004. The Green Party, which “fully supports” U.S. troops in Iraq (Green Party webpage, “Greens to Run Hard Against Bush in 2004.” 7/31/03), has said it will run a “strategic” campaign in 2004, i.e., the Green candidate, if there is one, will not campaign in states where there is a close presidential race. A Green Party spokesman in California said that either Kucinich or Dean, both Democrats, would be acceptable, and another California Green commented that “ “There are many ways that Greens can help a Democratic contender beat President Bush” (GPCA Press Release, 6/30/03).

It should be very clear from the above that the Green Party is neither “left-wing” nor “a third party.” The Greens, who repeatedly nominate the rich, are demonstrably becoming just another set of cheerleaders for the Democrats. What working people need is our own party, a mass party of labor based on the trade unions, to fight for power on a socialist program. Under capitalism, the boss picks the worker’s pocket every day: working people receive only a small portion of the wealth we create. The rest of it goes to the members of the boss-class, to capitalists like Nader and Camejo. Only the realization of a socialist program can change this, and that will require class struggle of monumental proportions. If you are tired of being lied to by capitalist politicians and ripped off by the boss-class, then contact us, the Workers International League.

Fyer courtesy of the Workers International League (USA)

http://www.socialistappeal.org/

redstar2000
25th July 2004, 00:23
What working people need is our own party, a mass party of labor based on the trade unions, to fight for power on a socialist program.

No, that wouldn't help either. Once upon a time, the British working class had such a party...it didn't do them any good.

What we really need is to finally put behind us the outmoded notion that bourgeois "democracy" is actually democratic...in any sense.

And, by the way, most trade unions are just as "democratic" as a bourgeois republic...power is firmly in the hands of a self-perpetuating, usually timid, often corrupt, and occasionally thuggish bureaucracy. A political party sponsored by those guys would be little improvement on the Democratic Party.

As "difficult" and seemingly "impractical" as it may seem, the real answer is always active resistance to capitalist hegemony.

There ain't no "easy" ways.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Marxist in Nebraska
26th July 2004, 23:09
Bush or Kerry?

One of those two men will occupy the White House until January 2009, at the earliest. The title of this thread is an easy question to answer: John Kerry does have the wealth, network, and connections to remove Bush from office. There are two other important, but more difficult questions that must be answered:

1. Is there any difference between George W. Bush and John Kerry?

If so, then one should clearly pick the man who will better serve one's own interests and ethics.

2. If there is no difference, does anybody else deserve your support even if they stand no chance of being elected this year?

Supporting a candidate like Ralph Nader or the Green Party, for example, could make them electable in the next several elections. On the other hand, maybe voting at all merely legitimizes our capitalist democracy (an oxymoron, to be sure).

That is the situation as I see it. Now, to answer my own questions:

1. There are differences between Bush and Kerry. There are subtle variations in the world socio-economic-military doctrines held by the two elite candidates. In my opinion, Kerry's policy will lead to a moderately lesser amount of suffering and death in the world. The pitfall to electing Kerry, from a radical perspective, is that it will be harder to demonstrate and propagandize for radical change because fewer people will be aware of Kerry's less-visible, less ruthless imperialism.

There are significant differences between Bush and Kerry on a few issues. Kerry has a much better record of supporting labor unions, the environment, and women's reproductive rights. In my opinion, someone who boycotts the election today saying there is no difference may see a horrific tomorrow, with his union busted with legal blessing, his wife unable to get an abortion that will save her life, and living in a world where a blue sky and drinkable water are a luxury only a few can afford. This hypothetical blue-collar guy will be one of the have-nots.

As for the second question, I still think supporting progressive third parties is of vital importance to us. We must build up now, and hopefully have viable working class-interested parties with electable candidates in... 20 years? Maybe 15? We need to stall neo-liberal and or neo-conservative fascism as long and hard as possible while simultaneously cultivating the remedy for its demise.

I would vote for Kerry in a "battleground" state, but I will vote for Nader because Bush is already counting my state's electoral votes.

refuse_resist
26th July 2004, 23:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 10:38 AM
Reality Check: Nader Had Union Supporters Fired - Peter Camejo is a Capitalist - The Greens Will Vote Democrat in 2004
Working People Need a Labor Party!

In 1984, as reported by The Washington Post and the Columbia Journalism Review, Ralph Nader, the perennial Green Party presidential candidate, had the entire editorial staff of Multinational Monitor, a magazine Nader founded and funded, fired shortly after they applied to the NLRB for union recognition. Nader, thanks to his investment portfolio, was worth $2.9 million dollars in 2000.

Peter Camejo, the perennial Green Party candidate for Governor of California, is not just a bourgeois politician from exclusive Walnut Creek, but a politician who is a capitalist. Camejo, described by the San Francisco Chronicle as running a “$1 billion investment firm,” is the sole proprietor/owner of “The Camejo Group,” a brokerage firm with employees. Camejo also draws a salary as the Chairman of Progressive Asset Management, another investment firm, with 29 branches nationwide. Camejo has repeatedly promised to drop out of the California gurnatorial race in favor of his fellow plutocrat, right-wing commentator Ariana Huffington, should she eclipse him in the opinion polls. Meanwhile, Campus Greens are reportedly leaning towards supporting the Democrat Dennis Kucinich for President in 2004. The Green Party, which “fully supports” U.S. troops in Iraq (Green Party webpage, “Greens to Run Hard Against Bush in 2004.” 7/31/03), has said it will run a “strategic” campaign in 2004, i.e., the Green candidate, if there is one, will not campaign in states where there is a close presidential race. A Green Party spokesman in California said that either Kucinich or Dean, both Democrats, would be acceptable, and another California Green commented that “ “There are many ways that Greens can help a Democratic contender beat President Bush” (GPCA Press Release, 6/30/03).

It should be very clear from the above that the Green Party is neither “left-wing” nor “a third party.” The Greens, who repeatedly nominate the rich, are demonstrably becoming just another set of cheerleaders for the Democrats. What working people need is our own party, a mass party of labor based on the trade unions, to fight for power on a socialist program. Under capitalism, the boss picks the worker’s pocket every day: working people receive only a small portion of the wealth we create. The rest of it goes to the members of the boss-class, to capitalists like Nader and Camejo. Only the realization of a socialist program can change this, and that will require class struggle of monumental proportions. If you are tired of being lied to by capitalist politicians and ripped off by the boss-class, then contact us, the Workers International League.

Fyer courtesy of the Workers International League (USA)

http://www.socialistappeal.org/
The Greens are no different than the Democrats. Nader himself is pro-capitalist, as well as many others who belong to that party.