No Palestinian State!!! - Why we cannot allow the foundation

[Anonymous]

At this point and time, we cannot tolerate the creation of an independent, sovereign 'Palestine state, because of the following reasons.

- Ideology
- Current Situation
- Violence

Ideology:
In the Middle East, there is a world full of hatred. This hatred is based on both sides. On the Palestinian side; however, it goes so far, that there (in the moment) will only be satisfaction through the destruction of Israel (I mark: this foolish thinking exists also in certain Jewish circles. The creation of an independent state would result in an active war. The Palestinians might use this possibility to buy tanks and heavy weapons, and then there would be a real war.
A sovereign Palestinian state would appear as an acceptance of terrorism, including suicide bombing. Suicide bombing is obviously wrong. It must not be tolerated. We recognize a very extreme (political) position of the Palestinian; the new state would be guided by this fanaticism, what might create unpredictable global effect ions; crisis’.

Current Situation:
A creation of new (independent and sovereign) state is a huge step. This step can only be taken in a period of peace. Peace is a necessity for such a moving change. Now there is no discussion that the Middle East faces a situation similar to war.
The situation is even worse: Families of Palestinian suicide bombers receive unbelievable benefits; they all get a new house and huge amounts of money. These benefits are supported or even taken by Arafat and his ‘committee’. They brain wash the people and lead them astray. We cannot give these evil persons (Arafat & Co.) the powers a sovereign government possesses.
The acknowledgement of a Palestinian state would be a ‘yes’ to terrorism, that is unacceptable.

Violence:
The violence must stop; that is the highest priority. We must not commit too rash steps. Now, ways to halt the violence must be found, then we will talk about an independent Palestinian state.

That is not a decision against Palestine, but it is obviously the only possible solution for a long term period of peace in the Middle East.


CanJe

[STALINSOLDIERS]

fuck you mother fucking pro isrealie........i hope you live down here in miami so i can whoop you sorry ass......infact i kill you with pleasure.........the isrealie are the terrorist and america is supporting it..

(Edited by STALINSOLDIERS at 3:14 pm on April 17, 2002)

[elizquierdista]

As you may already know, this topic will cause much contraversy. I for one do not share the same idealogy as you. I believe a Palestinian state is a huge step towards peace. The Palestinians want a state and peace more than anyone. Let me remind you that it was the Israelis who stopped the peace that was to when those extremists killed Rabin.

What about Israeli terrorism?
They unlike the Palestinians don't cause terror through suicide bombers. They cause terror with tanks and troops. Have you not seen the news? Have you not heard about Jenin?

[Anonymous]

elizquierdista,

I can see your point.
I agree with you that an independent Palestinian state is the best solution. However, in the moment we find ourselves not in a situation where this issue is an option.

Of course, I do not agree with the brutal acts of the Israeli, but there is one big difference:
I can understand why the Israeli do what they do (I still do not agree with them), but the Palestinian suicide bombing against the ordinary people I can not understand. There is no excuse for such actions.

I side clearly with the Israeli, because their action are aimed against terrorist, against evil persons. The Israeli act this way to protect their wifes and children. I do not agree with their actions, but I can understand them totally.
On the other side, the Palestinian suicide bombers, who receive the support of the Palestinian people, try to kill as many persons as possible. Their actions are aimed to kill, not to protect. This brutal deeds go against innocent human beings.

(Some people here seem to side with the Palestinian because the US side with the Israeli and because it is 'cool'. Such acting shows how intelligent these people are. The use of the language and the lack of self-control (or virtues in generall) gives the rest.)

[CheGuevara]

Yes, we know, killing 12 year olds who are shopping for used cars with their dads is an absolute justified protection of the landstealer's state of israel.

[Anonymous]

Why can you not argue with the arguments itself, but instead you try to find little mistakes, which do not question the basic meaning of the argument.

The Israeli made mistakes, that is right. There is also a certain amount of revenge and hatred included in their actions. But the media only bring these mistakes, because of the greed for cruelty and blood of our society. This sad event occur, that is unfortunate, but that changes nothing on the basics.

[MJM]

Ideology. So it's fair for the Zionist terrorists to own tanks etc. but the Palestinians (who have been killed at around a 1:4 ratio) can't defend themselves and when they try to get weapons to fight against tanks they're invaded. I wonder why they blow themselves up? Maybe if they had guns they would fight fair eh? I mean it's just aint right to blow yourself up, it's just not cricket old boy.

Current Situation. Israeli troops invading your territory, killing civilians, executing people without any trial, you try to get guns you get get attacked. How can you say they don't want peace when they're under attack? Just label everyone evil- not a US citizen by any chance- would you say this if Palestine was a xian country?

Violence. Yes stop the Zionist aggressors and the violence may have a chance at ending. But instead of looking at the cause of the Suicide bombings you'd rather just say ' They hate us'.

P.S What gives you the right to say who can and can't have a country of their own?

[Anonymous]

There is no legitimization for suicide bombing. That goes against any philosophy, even Karl Marx would detest it.
You have to get your facts right. If you call the Israeli terrorists, what are then the Palestinians?
There is war. War is evil. So easy. Therefore, in war, happens evil and detestable things like the suicide bombing and that some soldiers disobey their officiers and kill civilians. But it occurs not very often that an Israeli soldier goes through.
What would you think if some manics go around and sacrfice everything to kill you and your family? Are in such a situation such sad events predictable?
By the way, most people (world wide) agree that the Palestinian must make the first step, because of their unhuman deeds. Not even the Germans in WW2 blew themselves up.

I support the idea of a Palestinian State, but that is way in the future. In the moment, we cannot tolerate it, because it would be a step away from peace.

[Son of Scargill]

I'm sorry CanJE56,But I personally can't see any difference between a suicide bomber and a mortar,or missile being used.The results are exactly the same,with the exception that in the case of the suicide bombers,the perpetrator gets it too.Instant justice in a way.
Also you say some soldiers disobey their officers sometimes,and kill civilians.This is true in most conflicts,but the destruction of civilian areas,and civilians with it has been Israeli Govt. policy for the past 20 months.Yes,soldiers(even officers)have disobeyed orders,by refusing to serve in the occupied territories beyond the green line.If they think that these present policies are wrong then surely you must at least question the validity of those policies.
http://hrw.org/wr2k2/mena5.html

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

(Edited by Son of Scargill at 7:06 am on April 18, 2002)

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Dear CanJE56,

Obviously my friend you have come to that great conclusion of yours based on the facts given to you by the media. Well, first of all, the western media on which you base a lot of your facts and opinions is not as independent and neutral as you might think. I don't want to go into this argument, so I'm just gonna advice you to read a book by Noam Chomsky called 'manufacturing Consent' it explains all it very clearly.

Now considering your points one by one.

'In the Middle East, there is a world full of hatred. This hatred is based on both sides. On the Palestinian side; however, it goes so far, that there (in the moment) will only be satisfaction through the destruction of Israel.'
I don't disagree with in the fact that there is more hatred from the palestinian side, but it is more than understandable. Let's take this analogy for example. Someone comes into your house while you're watching a football game, kicks the crap out of you for no reason, then kills your wife and children while your forced to watch. Not content with that, he decides to throw you outside the house and threatens to kill you if you come back. Some how, you manage to control your anger and rage and decide to go the police station (let's call them the U.N.). However, the police officer advices you that they can't do anything because that person happens to be a very good friend of a very powerful politician (The US) that you do not wish to enrage.
Now are you telling me that that person (the palestinians) do not have the right to express rage and indignation at this travesty of justice. Furthermore, contrary to your belief, there are many palestinians who are willing to live in an Independent Palestinian State NEIGHBOURING THE STATE OF ISRAEL, as stated by one palestinian in the 'Independent' newspaper "First, I believe in your right to exist in peace and security. I also believe in a palestinian state next to Israel, not instead of Israel. You think I'm a scarce commodity? You're wrong. The vast majority of Palestinians truly believe in this scenario. Don't believe anyone who tells you anything different. We are people who aspire to a national identity, a good job, a cool drink, a hot meal, a nice car, and a safe home just like you."

'The Palestinians might use this possibility to buy tanks and heavy weapons, and then there would be a real war.'
What on Earth do you think this is? This is a war. However, it is a very uneven war, the Israelis on one side have F-16 fighter jets, Apache helicopters, Merkava tanks and nuclear weapons (although it's supposed to be a secret so hush hush). On the other hand, we have the palestinians who are armed with nothing more than a handful of rifles and home-made explosives. Like I said many times before, I do not consider those who kill innocent civilians to be revolutionary heroes, but they are desperate and furious people who have given up on the option of peace. Not because they are 'terrorists' as we are supposed to believe, but simply because the only thing that more than thirty years of peace and negotiations brought them was more death and exile. They saw their houses destroyed, their parents, brothers, and children killed; all that while the world was supposed to be watching. I have NOT been in that position, and NOR have you I believe. Until then, I suggest that you do not 'ignorantly' label them as you wish.

'The acknowledgement of a Palestinian state would be a ‘yes’ to terrorism, that is unacceptable.'

So you are suggesting that returning a land (or part of it) to its indigenous people is an acknowledgement of terrorism; that those living in refugee camps for more than thirty years do not deserve a life where they don't have to worry about the Israeli army coming in and out whenever the wish to demolish their homes on a regular basis; that the numerous UN resolutions including the one demanding Israel to withdraw to its pre 1967 borders should not be pursued.

Frankly my friend, I find your opinions to be largely unjustified, neither politically nor morally. And may I suggest that instead of reciting what you just saw on CNN or FOX News, you should seek to improve your knowledge of the political situation in the middle east, rather than giving us 'ill-advised' opinions. Perhaps the following books might help you to achieve that:

1. Manufacturing Consent (Noam Chomsky).
2. Pity the Nation (Robert Fisk).
3. A land without a People (NurMasalha).
4. The Battle for God (Karen Armstrong).

[Angie]

My current view is a very definite No to the present Israeli actions, and Yes to an independent Palestinian state.

And I would go so far as to take the following statement:


CanJE says:
"On the Palestinian side; however, it goes so far, that there (in the moment) will only be satisfaction through the destruction of Israel"And I would replace the word "Palestinian" with "Israeli Government", and the word "Israel" with "the Palestinian people".

[chupacabra]

All I have to say is WHO are you to say that there shouldn't be a Palestine state. How can there be peace when the Israelis keep invading refugee camps. How can you deny these people the chance to give them their own land, dignity, and hope for the future. Do you know WHY there are suicide bombers because they are children who grow up poor, humiliated, and shoved around by the israelis and the way they see it, suicide bombing will push back the israelis and give them back THEIR land. The Jews have no right being there. Would you like it if someone threw you out of your home/country built useless settlements then killed your brother/sister, father/mother? I have no respect for these Jews and hope Israel gets what it deserves. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth!

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 5:25 am on April 17, 2002
I side clearly with the Israeli, because their action are aimed against terrorist, against evil persons. The Israeli act this way to protect their wifes and children.

I disagree. Maybe you should check the "What happened in Jenin" thread on this forum, as it will tell you different. There is strong evidence to show that Israeli soldiers have held several massacres. I'm not talking about one-off mistakes (or even collateral damage), several hundred soldiers have refused to fight (including a senior General) out of objection to the Israeli actions. Israelis have been responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent civilians (someone else give statistics please, they're not my strong point) and have invaded a state. I do not condone suicide bombing (on the contrary, I think it is terrible), but I think the Israelis are the greater of the two evils. I did a long post on suicide bombers about three weeks ago and i can't be arsed to repeat it.


(Some people here seem to side with the Palestinian because the US side with the Israeli and because it is 'cool'. Such acting shows how intelligent these people are. The use of the language and the lack of self-control (or virtues in generall) gives the rest.)


True. A certain name called Stalin Soldiers springs to mind...

[chupacabra]

Isn't it suicide for me to pick up a rifle and go fight against an army that has twice my capacity. In war, we all do not have the re-assurance of coming back alive.

Listen, I don't condone suicide bombing but I blame the israelis for pushing these kids to the brink. If I had to live in their shoes I can understand why they do it.

[Edelweiss]

I recently discussed with a friend weather to go to a Palestinian solidarity demo. I didn't wanted to go because I have a huge problem with certain Palestinian groups from which I knew they will be represented at the demo. So I didn't went to the demo, although I'm totally against Sharons inhuman and racists policy. later I found the following picture from another pro-palestinian demo in Berlin that day on the Net, and I knew I was right not to go there:

http://www.krasse-zeiten.de/foto/pali020413/images/pali022.jpg

This is no fake! There are several whitnesses who reported at Indymedia that paroles like "Judenschweine" (jewish pigs) and also "Heil Hitler" where shouted by some Palestinian groups. Paroles which were shouted at the same places by the SA in 1933. That fucking bastards! There are also reports that there were even German neo-nazis represented at the demo, protected by the symathiszers of hisbollah etc.
It's so fucking depressing to see that, because I want to show my solidarity with the Palestinian people, but I can't when the Palestinians are represented by such fascists pigs here .

[GuerillaTactics]

Hey Malte......... I am assuming you are from Germany(correct me if I am wrong) ........ anyways that is besides the point........ the man in the photo is obviously an ignorant bastard.......... Any one who believes that the palestinians were wronged should remeber that it was the Nazis fault for what is happening right now........ if it weren't for the holocaust .......... the chance of a state in Palestine would have been much slimmer........ the Nazis are noones friends....... and that guy in the picture is an embassment to all the brave freedom fighters he is supposedly at that rally to show solidarity for......... but by the way malte............ you have to understand that you have clout on this website........when you speak......people listen..........so just make sure you dont generalize .........not saying you did it on purpose......but maybe it just came out that way........i dont know.......thats just my opinion

[Edelweiss]

hey, I didn't generalized! Please don't get me wrong! Of course I don't think that all Plaestinians are Nazis!!! But, it's a fact that it wasn't just a single person who did the Hitlergruß and shouted anti-semitic shit , it was a whole bunch of people side by side with German neo-nazis.

[GuerillaTactics]

i dont think you understood what i was getting at......... what i was saying is this was one event........... a one in a million type of thing......... so when you broadcast it like this...........it sounds that the palestinians are in cahoots with the nazis in germany......... Any real Palestinian living in germany.........knows it is the fault of the third reich that they are in diaspora in germany and not in their native palestine.......... so malte........all i was saying is maybe when you say something you should put a disclaimer that this was an isolated event and not a mainstream view of palestinians............. there is a big differece between the jewish faith and zionist israel......... Palestinians are anti-israel..........not anti-jewish........... if a few nuckle heads in europe cant make that distinction.........i dont think it should be put out there like it is a mainstream view.

[chupacabra]

malte, I think because there is no support shown here in the US, people are taking extreme sides! I don't hate Jews, I feel bad for WWII and I have said before that I know very good Jewish people. But being pro=palestinian to me means pro-people who are being oppressed every day. I don't believe in extremism. But you always have to get to the root of the problem. Why do you think extremism comes from? DOn't attend anything that you don't fully support!

[Edelweiss]

Sorry, GuerillaTactics, but I think you are a bit naive in this point. I actually do think that certain Palestinian groups, also in Palestine itself, have a very fascist and anti-semitic ideology. And it were just the representors of this certain groups who did the Hitlergruß and shouted Heil Hitler.
I just posted this beause I think that it's important to denunciate this groups and to show what ideology is actually behind them.

[munkey soup]

I am for a Palestinian state, but don't fool yourselfs, there are many people in Palenstine who would love to see Israel destroyed along with all the Jewish citizens there. I don't think they're the majority, but they're there.

Of course, theres plenty of people in Israel who would love to see all the Palestinians disappear as well, except that Israel is funded by U$ and has tanks and attack helicopters instead of rocks and homemade AKs like the palestinians.




(Edited by munkey soup at 9:35 am on April 17, 2002)

[Anonymous]

LeonardoDaVinci,

Thanks for your comments; it is good to hear different, but still issue-oriented oppinions.
However, you consentrate very much on the Palestinian point of view. You forget the Israeli perspective totally.
How is it, if, whatever you do, wherever you walk or are, you are in danger of being murdered. Your children are in huge danger, because school-buses are a prefered aim of the suicide bombers.

Please also regard the fact, that Israel is a working country. In his short history, Israel managed to become a future-oriented democracy with a strong economy. It accomplished a lot. I strongly believe that the foundation of Israel after WW2 was a good decision.

How do you want to know where I got my sources from?

The lecture you recommended is only a one-point-of-view lecture. You have to know both sides (including situation, worldview etc.), then you can make a decision.

[GuerillaTactics]

Malte.....its far from being naive........... the point i was making is this is a chat about whether there should be a palestinian state..............and i was wondering .......why would you take away from that discussion by showing some knuckle-head in germany saluting like a nazi????? does that have anything to do with what the discussion was about? I didnt mean anything against you personally...... but understand....... extreme times breed extreme beliefs........... on another note.........you shouldnt take what i told you about the fact that you should say that that was an isolated incident .....to be an attack on you

[Anonymous]

Let me clearity:

I am not against a Palestinian state, that is probably the only long term solution, but in the moment we cannot talk about it.
The Palestinians have to stop the violence first, then we can negotiate about a sovereign state.

There are suicide bombers among the Palestinians, because the are blinded by hatred and do not have access to true informations. Israelis would never blow themselves up, because their morals are against it and because they have access to media and independent information. They do not get all the facts from a corrupt Arafat. Arafat and other Muslim leaders, abuse the sad situation of the Palestinians for their own wicked aims.

Arafat has to be stopped. He should leave the country, then we (UN) can build infrastructures in Palestine. We can build a country, that whoever wants has access to true informations about any issue. We need freedom of speech and basic human rights in Palestine, all this things are oppressed by Arafat and his corrupt regime.

[Edelweiss]

This was a Palestinian critical topic, so I thought this would fit. I still don't think that this is an isolated incident. Actually I think this is quiet representative for some radical Palestinian groups which gain more and more power in the Palestinian terretories. Just wanted to remember you to avoid a black-white thinking, I'm all for a Palestinian state, but it has to be a human one, and with ceratin groups involved in it, it will be a state of injustice.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Dear CanJE56,

Where exactly in my article did I SUPPORT the killing of innocent Israelis. What I try to do as a rational human being is trying to identify with the roots of the suffering that lead to the current situation. No, I'm not biased towards palestinians, I am though biased towards humanity and justice. I also believe that you hear more than enough of the Israeli perspective from your local media, the palestinians however, don't have access to as many Harvard educated lawyers and generals to reflect on their opinions.

Also, let's not forget that at the end of the day, it was the Israelis that killed Rabin for his willingness to make the slightest concessions to the palestinians, and also that it was they who voted for a war criminal who was found to be directly responsible for the Sabra and Shatilla Massacre by an independent Israeli enquiry.

ANYMORE POINTS CANJE THAT YOU WANT TO DISCUSS.

[chupacabra]

Salaam,There has to be moderate voices so there can be peace in the Middle East. But I symapthize with the Palestinian people. They are living in poverty while the Jews live lavishly> Give back the land to the Palestinians, Israelis have no right there!

[BOZG]

That goes against any philosophy, even Karl Marx would detest it.

*gasp* Karl Marx thought it was wrong. Must blindly follow every single thing he says. The majority of people on this board have a mind of their own and even if though follow many Marxist teachings, they can think for themselves.


And as for a Palestinian estate I am entirely for it. The Israelis need to withdraw from Palestinian land and pull back to the 1948 borders and allow the Palestinian people the right to govern themselves.

[GuerillaTactics]

Malte these factions you talk about........ with the "extremist views"....... do you think that there was a cause for these thoughts............. dont you think that if a palestinian state was established that the views held by some of these groups would fizzle away if they were put in a different situation............dont you think that if they were allowed to live as human beings in their own state that they wouldn't take such a hard line? .....these are things you have to think about......... the enemy to the entire human race is the occupation.........it breeds hate on both sides........ end the occupation...........and you eliminate the hate( naturally after a period of time........but it would still end)........ do you agree?

[guerrillaradio]

To be honest, I'm not that surprised at Malte's pictures. People seem to classify Israel as the only fascsist zealots in the Middle East. The truth is that there is a huge amount of nationalism and xenophobia on both sides. And GTactics can go on all he wants, but the fact remains that he is identifying with those are in solidarity with Nazis. It is quite likely that with the amount of religious and nationalistic fanaticism in Palestine that some will stereotype and therefore become anti-Semitic and Nazi.

[Fires of History]

CanJE56m7x7swCH,

You're not being consistent with your argument.

For example:

You said, "The creation of an independent state would result in an active war."
But then you said, "A creation of new (independent and sovereign) state is a huge step. This step can only be taken in a period of peace."

You admit that war is completely inevitable if a state were to be created, yet you assume that peace is somehow possible in that same tenuous situation. Also, has there ever been a true period of peace in all of Israel's history? Then why would you expect a real and lasting peace now of all times?

You said, "The Palestinians have to stop the violence first, then we can negotiate about a sovereign state."

Ahh, the ol' chicken or the egg dilemma. It would seem if Israel truly wanted peace, they would respect the rights of their neighbors. The Palestinians are reacting, and fighting for the same nationhood that Israel demands for itself.

You said, "I side clearly with the Israeli....I do not agree with their actions, but I can understand them totally."

Do you know how inconsistent you sound? You 'side' with them, you 'understand' them, but you somehow manage to 'disagree' somewhere in the mix? How is that?

You said, "By the way, most people (world wide) agree that the Palestinian must make the first step, because of their unhuman deeds. Not even the Germans in WW2 blew themselves up."

Are you saying the Palestinians are somehow worse than the Nazis?

Also, who are you talking about when you say 'most people'? Any references? Are you quoting something? Who are 'most people'?

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 11:03 pm on April 16, 2002
Ideology:
In the Middle East, there is a world full of hatred. This hatred is based on both sides. On the Palestinian side; however, it goes so far, that there (in the moment) will only be satisfaction through the destruction of Israel (I mark: this foolish thinking exists also in certain Jewish circles. The creation of an independent state would result in an active war. The Palestinians might use this possibility to buy tanks and heavy weapons, and then there would be a real war.The Palestinians are already buying weapons. And it's not as if a world without a Palestinian state would mean a world without enemies of Israel. Exactly how many wars have there been between Israel and Arab nations?


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 11:03 pm on April 16, 2002
A sovereign Palestinian state would appear as an acceptance of terrorism, including suicide bombing. Suicide bombing is obviously wrong. It must not be tolerated. We recognize a very extreme (political) position of the Palestinian; the new state would be guided by this fanaticism, what might create unpredictable global effect ions; crisis’.Fanaticism thrives in desperate environments. Terrorism is far more uncommon among people who feel secure and safe.


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 11:03 pm on April 16, 2002
Current Situation:
A creation of new (independent and sovereign) state is a huge step. This step can only be taken in a period of peace. Peace is a necessity for such a moving change. Now there is no discussion that the Middle East faces a situation similar to war.This is a very "chicken or the egg"-ish matter, because there will also be no peace until there is a Palestinian state. So small increments are what's needed.


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 11:03 pm on April 16, 2002
We cannot give these evil persons (Arafat & Co.) the powers a sovereign government possesses.
The acknowledgement of a Palestinian state would be a ‘yes’ to terrorism, that is unacceptable.The Palestinians should have had their own state before there was any terrorism to begin with! The terrorism started after land was stolen. A Palestinian state would be an acknowledgement that human rights deserve respect. And while I'm no member of the Yasir Arafat fan club, we've got to remember that he hasn't got much longer. This is important because a) When he's gone, he's (duh) no longer a problem, and B) When the Palestinians choose a new leader, I hope that they will choose one who is rational, reasonable and intelligent. Irrational and unreasonable people thrive most in desperate situations. Making life for average Palestinians better will ensure that the next leader they elect will be one who's got his head together.


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 11:03 pm on April 16, 2002
The violence must stop; that is the highest priority. We must not commit too rash steps. Now, ways to halt the violence must be found, then we will talk about an independent Palestinian state.
This violence happens because people feel hopeless that there will never be a Palestinian state. Moving out of the occupied territories would be a sign of good faith. Once the Palestinians have a reason to trust the Israelis (remember, they've been duped before), each side will trust the other and negotiations can begin.


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 12:25 am on April 17, 2002
Of course, I do not agree with the brutal acts of the Israeli, but there is one big difference:
I can understand why the Israeli do what they do (I still do not agree with them), but the Palestinian suicide bombing against the ordinary people I can not understand. There is no excuse for such actions.There's also no excuse for Israeli occupation. There's no excuse for villages being leveled and innocent people dying. I suspect that my problem is just the opposite of yours, because I understand both sides all too well.


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 12:25 am on April 17, 2002
I side clearly with the Israeli, because their action are aimed against terrorist, against evil persons. The Israeli act this way to protect their wifes and children. I do not agree with their actions, but I can understand them totally.
On the other side, the Palestinian suicide bombers, who receive the support of the Palestinian people, try to kill as many persons as possible. Their actions are aimed to kill, not to protect. This brutal deeds go against innocent human beings.This can be argued either way. The Israeli army has killed women and children. Suicide bombers sicken me as well, but suicide bombing isn't simply an act of solidarity or support for a cause but almost always is an act of hopelessness . . . as if there is no other option. Reviving the peace process would make less people want to become suicide bombers. I think that they might commit those horrible crimes for the same reasons that Israeli soldiers massacre civilians: they feel it's the only chance that they have to give their children a better life than what they've got.


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 12:25 am on April 17, 2002
(Some people here seem to side with the Palestinian because the US side with the Israeli and because it is 'cool'. Such acting shows how intelligent these people are. The use of the language and the lack of self-control (or virtues in generall) gives the rest.)
I agree. "Knee-Jerk Anti-Americanism" is stupid. But don't let this stop you from listening to the reasonable people (of which there are many on this board) and figuring out what's really going on.


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 2:40 am on April 17, 2002
There is no legitimization for suicide bombing. That goes against any philosophy, even Karl Marx would detest it.
You have to get your facts right. If you call the Israeli terrorists, what are then the Palestinians?There are terrorists on both sides.

And I'll end with a sidenote:
Quote: from Malte on 11:10 am on April 17, 2002
There are several whitnesses who reported at Indymedia that paroles like "Judenschweine" (jewish pigs) and also "Heil Hitler" where shouted by some Palestinian groups. Paroles which were shouted at the same places by the SA in 1933. That fucking bastards! There are also reports that there were even German neo-nazis represented at the demo, protected by the symathiszers of hisbollah etc.
It's so fucking depressing to see that, because I want to show my solidarity with the Palestinian people, but I can't when the Palestinians are represented by such fascists pigs here .
I know exactly what you mean. There are going to be some pro-Palestinian demonstrations where I live (Washington, DC) this weekend and I'd like to go because I think it's important that Jewish people show their support for total justice everywhere in the Middle East, but I've heard from other Jews that it's not the brightest idea in the world. (If you get my drift.) There have actually been pro-Palestinian groups that have sold literature that says the Holocaust never happened . . . which, for better or for worse, is legal in the United States. Anyway, while the peace movement has been slightly disbanded there are still people trying to organize peace demonstrations around here. I hope that it's the same over there. Best of luck.

[Sasafrás]

Quote: from STALINSOLDIERS on 10:12 pm on April 16, 2002
fuck you mother fucking pro isrealie........i hope you live down here in miami so i can whoop you sorry ass......infact i kill you with pleasure.........the isrealie are the terrorist and america is supporting it..

(Edited by STALINSOLDIERS at 3:14 pm on April 17, 2002)
Every time I read a post made by you, STALINSOLDIERS, I become even less impressed by you. Do you not realize that with using that class of language, you are not only demonstrating how much of a fool you truly are, but you are defeating the entire purpose of debate (and disagreement)? Sure, many people may not agree with what that guy with far too many letters and numbers in his sign-in name thinks about an independent Palestinian State, but your use of profane language and threats toward him does not make you look any better or actually even show that you have a real point.

And, it's extremely depressing that you edited your message and still failed to retract the stupidity that you showed.

What a shame..

[Derar]

Everyone Read this article .......

The only State that should not exist is the israeli state ..... it should have never been there in the first place .

http://electronicintifada.net/diaries/arch.../00000132.shtml (http://electronicintifada.net/diaries/archives/00000132.shtml)

[Raztro]

Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH
No Palestinian State!


Quote: from CanJE56m7x7swCH on 6:34 pm on April 17, 2002
I am not against a Palestinian state


hmmm...Hypocrisy?

[itssoLARGE]

1. Israel is holding certain areas of land illegally (against United Nations mandate)

2. How is using tanks against a militarily helpless people in anyway better than suicide bombing?

3. According to UN mandate Arafat can use "Any means necessary to remove the Israeli's from the occupied territories" (Not that I advocate suicide bombing)

[Fires of History]

Raztro,

Right on Comrade! I missed those gems. As I pointed out as well in my response, CanJE....'s entire argument is flawed and inconsistent.

Glad you saw that too!

[Reuben]

Apart from anything he is talking crap.

Lie number one. He said if there was a palestinian state they would want to destroy israel

well actually, the palestinians made a huge compromise at Oslo when they for some reason agreed to accept israel in 78% of what was originally palestine


zionists really are prone to chatting shit

[Moskitto]

You have to have an Israeli state in the area it's currently in.

Reason. There are quite a lot of Jews who live in that area so creating a "Palestinian" state would do what if the area is majority Jewish and would probably be voting for parties that represent their interests?

If you were to abolish the "Israeli" state you would have to do something about this.

1. Send all the Jews out of Israeli (Genocide under international law)
2. Start oppressing the Jews (like Apartheid South Africa)
3. Bridge the gaps between both communities so that racial tensions are not a problem.

However the Israeli government have no right to force the Palestinians off their land. Sharon has to go.

A secular state needs to be created, that's the only solution.

And yes knee-jerk anti-Americanism is very foolish.

[Pepe Cy]

Dear Friends,

It seems to me that the chapter called “Palestine state” is creating a gap between as. Some of you are right, some other has some mistakes due to luck of information. Please put your self in Che Guevara philospphy.
Companero said that “there is no legitimization for suicide bombing. That goes against any philosophy, even Karl Marx would detest it.” when people has nothing else to loose than their chains, when they left with out any hope and they get blind with hate ness they will seek for revenge. That’s something more than philosophy. That’s life.
Companero also said “A creation of new (independent and sovereign) state is a huge step. This step can only be taken in a period of peace. Peace is a necessity for such a moving change.” there is a phrase that said that “what ever you want, get it by yourself, other wise no one would come and give it to you”. No one is stupid or good enough to give you what you deserve or want. You have to fight for your rights. More nations had been created by struggle and fight that by peaceful means. My country, Cyprus is an example. America is another example. So, what make you believe that the creation of an independent and sovereign state would come only in a period of peace? Actually is the other way around. The creation of an independent and sovereign state would bring the peace.
What does the two sides wants? Please, can any of you ask a Palestinian and an Israel what they fight for?
If they both ask for peace, then there is a way to find a solution. But I believe that Sharon, the butcher has a different opinion. Sharon wants to stop the creation of an independent Palestinian state and create a big and powerful Israel.
Consider the following.
Israel troops withdraw from Israel.
Palestinians are having their independence.
United Nation Troops are controlling the area without allowing the Palestinians to buy heavy weapons. Only light and defense weapons.
Palestine would be heavily depended on Israel for their economic development. Israel can be benefit from the cheap labor force.
Education should be manipulated in such a way that it would not promote hate, but love and understanding between the two communities.
The Israelis are not bad. The Palestinians are not bad. They are human beings like we are. They are teaches how to hate and fight each other. The nationalisms, the religions and the capital are behind all those evil actions.
Several common activities, especially between the young will create the foundations for peace.
Abolish religious and other extreme organizations.
Combanero I don’t consider it “cool” to support the Palestinian. I consider it as a moral and ethical duty as a communist and a human.
The acknowledgement of a Palestinian state would NOT be a ‘yes’ to terrorism. Lets make it be a yes to life. A YES for two nations and two different communities living and working together. And lets make the same YES, sound as a big NO to all those who are war lovers, who make the innocent people getting killed while they are making more money, either by selling weapons, or providing political solution and security.
Unfortunately I can feel the situation. The stupid nationalists and NATO turned by place into another Palestine, another Kashmir so it wont end up as the “Cuba of the Mediterranean” as they called it. Two communities living apart, scaring and hating each other.
Marx has both the explanation and the answer to that.

[Xvall]

Yup. Yup. The only diffirence between the bad Israelies and the bad Palestineans is that the bad Israelies are better equipted for killing.

(By the way, my History teacher made a REALLY racist remark a while back. And I quote "All Muslims Hate Jews with a Vengance..". He's a racist bastard!)

- Drake Dracoli

[Moskitto]

"All Muslims Hate Jews with a Vengance..".

That isn't true, In Egypt the guide told us that the Muslims have respect for the Christians and Jews because they believe they are all worshiping the same god.

Before any Christian fundamentalist anti-Islam nutballs reply to this, In Timothy it basically says that going to the gym doesn't do anything (looks at bulging bicep.)

[queen of diamonds]

CanJE56 -
looks like i don't have to do much, as it seems leo's said most of it anyway, but i'd like to put an interesting question to you - if desperate palestinians blowing themselves up in an effort to win back their land for their people is terrorism, what do you call the US scapegoating one man & bombing a country in order to locate this one man, killing many hundreds of innocent civilians in the process?