Infinity

[7189]

Well?

Personally I think its wonderful! The fact that I can't, and probably never will grasp it is at times frustrating, but even when I begin to think about it I am filled with an overwhelming feeling of happiness and calmness. It is truly incredible! The fact that the universe is infinite in all dimensions! So much space! So many possibilities.

That got me thinking. Infinity surely includes possibilities? OK, you can't prove that, but at the same time it is impossible to disprove that! So it's quite possible therefore, that dragons exist somewhere in the great infinity of the universe, that there are aliens like those from the movies. EXACTLY the same! Even characters from books and movies! Like Ripley from the Alien films, or Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings! Or Alex from A Clockwork Orange! I mean, if some minds here could think them up, surely infinity has too!

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Its beautiful and the basis for the fundamental reason for existence, art.

[Gunman]

I think its a good thing that infinity exists, otherwise, life wouldn´t make very sense

[apathy maybe]

Infinity is blue. It is also only a mathematical construct that does not exist in real life.

[Roses in the Hospital]

That got me thinking. Infinity surely includes possibilities? OK, you can't prove that, but at the same time it is impossible to disprove that! So it's quite possible therefore, that dragons exist somewhere in the great infinity of the universe, that there are aliens like those from the movies. EXACTLY the same! Even characters from books and movies! Like Ripley from the Alien films, or Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings! Or Alex from A Clockwork Orange! I mean, if some minds here could think them up, surely infinity has too!

That also means that God must exist...

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Why? How did you get Gods existence from the idea of infinity?

[7189]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 3 2004, 05:35 AM
Infinity is blue. It is also only a mathematical construct that does not exist in real life.
Infinity exists. If you say that it does not exist then you are implying the universe is finite and therefore has limits. I ask you friend...what is outside those limits? Nothingness? DEFINE NOTHINGNESS!

It is a mathematical construct, that is true. No human can fully visualise and comprehend infinity, nor can we express such a thing completely in words. We have to give it names and symbols, like 'infinity' and 0. Both of these are utterly wrong though, because they are both singular items, and therefore do not truly represent infinity. This is where the limits of our knowledge and our inability to express ourselves completely come into play.

[7189]

Originally posted by Roses in the [email protected] 3 2004, 08:49 AM
That also means that God must exist...
What is God? Is God an entity which encompasses everything? If this is the case...then infinity is God.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Ugggh, nothing worse than the age old if we cant explain it Add God formula. How is it that twice in this thread God has been absurdly used to justify two things which do not in any requite his existence?

[7189]

Geist, I don't believe in God. I am an atheist. Read my post properly.

I am not justifying God's existence by saying that infinity is God, I am actually proving that he does not exist by saying that infinity is the only 'entity encompassing anything', for a lot of people do believe that their God is such a thing. I'm surprised you could misunderstand it so.

[7189]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 05:32 PM
Ugggh, nothing worse than the age old if we cant explain it Add God formula. How is it that twice in this thread God has been absurdly used to justify two things which do not in any requite his existence?
Excuse me... no offence, but I really don't understand your English.

[Pawn Power]

7189, you are obssesed with the unknown going from full comprehension to infinity.
very interesting subjects though. I agree that infinity is a mathmatical contruct, infact mathmatics is the mother of all sciences and can be used to explain things that words cannot :huh:

[elijahcraig]

Infinity exists. If you say that it does not exist then you are implying the universe is finite and therefore has limits. I ask you friend...what is outside those limits? Nothingness? DEFINE NOTHINGNESS!

Space-time could help to explain away the "infinite" length of the universe.

And why do you use the concept of nothingness to justify the concept of infinity?

[Roses in the Hospital]

Why? How did you get Gods existence from the idea of infinity?

If the universe is infinite, then there are infinite possibilities within it . Like 7189 says, all of the famous aliens from movies must exist somewhere within it, as must literary characters such as Aragorn. This idea was used with humoureous conseqences by Douglas Adams who claims that in the universe nothing needs to be manufactured because absolutely everything grows naturally somewhere, the example he used being a species of mattresses which would be slaughtered by humans to be used for their own comfort. Therefore something approaching the Christian idea of God must also exist within an infinite universe. It's a version of the Ontological argument I think.
By the way, I'm not using this argument to try and proove God's existance, I'm just saying it can be used to proove God's existance, if your that way inclined...

[7189]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 06:41 AM

Space-time could help to explain away the "infinite" length of the universe.

And why do you use the concept of nothingness to justify the concept of infinity?
I am merely asking for a definition of nothingness. Something which I am still waiting for.

[elijahcraig]

I am merely asking for a definition of nothingness. Something which I am still waiting for.

Are you speaking of nothingness in the sense that Sartre or Heidegger used it?

[7189]

I am speaking of nothingness. Full stop.

He or she who sets out to prove that the universe is finite, should at least define nothingness.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 06:05 PM
Excuse me... no offence, but I really don't understand your English.
Sorry, that post was made in a bit of a haze, ignore it, its not a valid point and there's a word in there that actually makes no sense.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Based on what i know from studying A level physics, the universe isn't infinite.

[elijahcraig]

I am speaking of nothingness. Full stop.

He or she who sets out to prove that the universe is finite, should at least define nothingness.

"Nothingness" doesn't need to be defined because it has nothing to do with the argument against infinity.

Time is a finite system of measurement which will change in the universe of space-time.

The poster above me has it right.

[percept¡on]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 07:17 PM
Based on what i know from studying A level physics, the universe isn't infinite.
I suppose it is the way a circle is infinite

[elijahcraig]

I suppose it is the way a circle is infinite

Ah, cyclic time. I love it.

[Vinny Rafarino]

The universe is finite, not infinite.

[sanpal]

I think three things are interrelated. They are infinity, second thermodynamic law and God.

If infinity is exists then 2-nd thermodynamic law isn't applicable to the universe as the whole, so objective reality has no beginning and no ending and there is no sense to use the idea of God.

Modern physical paradigm proclaims 2-nd thermdynamic law as the absolute but it means that all things have the beginning and the ending including the universe. The question what was before the beginning generates the idea of God. I'm not surprised why so many scientist-physicists believing in God there are in science. :lol:

[7189]

The universe is infinite in all dimensions. To say that it is finite is completely and utterly ludicrous if you cannot define nothingness. Here's an example. If the universe is finite, as you say it is, then you are implying that it is like a singular object. I ask you, what is outside of this object? If the universe is for example 500 light years by 500 light years by 500 light years, then we have a universe that resembles a cube. This is the finite universe you speak of. I ask you again...what is outside of this? The only answer to that question is 'nothingness'. Therefore, I ask you to define nothingness, something which you seem to think is irrelevant for some bizarre reason.

[elijahcraig]

The universe is infinite in all dimensions.

Why are you measuring non-temporal things with time-centered words like "finite" or "infinite"?


To say that it is finite is completely and utterly ludicrous if you cannot define nothingness. Here's an example. If the universe is finite, as you say it is, then you are implying that it is like a singular object. I ask you, what is outside of this object? If the universe is for example 500 light years by 500 light years by 500 light years, then we have a universe that resembles a cube. This is the finite universe you speak of. I ask you again...what is outside of this? The only answer to that question is 'nothingness'. Therefore, I ask you to define nothingness, something which you seem to think is irrelevant for some bizarre reason.

What the fuck does "500 light years by 500 light years" mean?

[Raisa]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 5 2004, 01:58 AM
The universe is finite, not infinite.
I am interested in what brings you to this conclusion. Would you please expand on why you think that, I'd aprieciate it.

[anjali]

Firstly, one cannot yet define infinity. Until now it is mathematically defined in a very obscur way. There have been many definitions according to phlosophy but only one through mathematics, which is applied to physics.

Secondly ther is no use for u people to ask wheather the universe is infinite or finite, because u have to determine what u mean. For example u might mean infinite in termas of TIME but finite in terms of SPACE (this type of universe can exist, it ihas been proven by Stephen Hawking). So if our universe is of the above type how would you characterize it?

Thirdly, Infinity has to do with qauntum theory and duality mechanics, which means that it will never be difined in a clear way. People thought for example that atoms are the smallest amount of material in the unverse and then found out that there are smaller particles called quarks. So they thought that they would be able to break every new particle they find into smaller particles, thus making the procedure INFINITE and Material CONITNUOUS. But now it has been proven that the samllest scale of division in space and time is planck measures. That is: planck length
planck time
Which means That material and time is NOT CONITNUOUS thus for every small amount we find there must NOT be some smaller amount of length or time. Which means that the procedure does not continue infinetely but is FINITE.

SO let me ask you this: How can we knowing the aove facts define infinity. Only by mathematics. (My reasearch now is on these things: particle enrgies, hologram theory and mathematical physics in quantum field theory) Infinity is reached when x in the function f(x)=1/x tends to reach 0. => lim(x->0) f(x)=infinity

The last thing is that in order to determine infinity one must also know how to determine 0. One poet of greece ones wrote:Let us become friends with 0 and infinity. If one is determined the other is determined. Because WHAT IS 0???
What is INFINITY???? WHo knows............We just know that they are very closely related.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 10:38 AM
The universe is infinite in all dimensions.
Sorry but that's utter bullshit, do you have any qualifications in physics?

If as you suggest the universe is 500 light years by 500 light years then there is nothing outside that cube. "Nothing" doesn't mean an absence of material, that's what space is, nothing means and absence of time and space. Just because you can't comprehend this that doesn't make it any less true, it's natural that you can't imagine an absence of space and time because those are the two premises that all our thoughts are built on.

Of course the universe is not 500 light years squared, it's continually expanding so it's just about impossible to measure although some physicists believe that it will reach a "critical" stage at which point it will stop expanding, other believe that it will start contracting eventually resulting in the "big crunch" but most believe it will continue to expand, it's all dependent on the total mass of the universe which is unknown because the mass or dark matter is unknown.

[7189]

Before I reply to what has been mentioned so far, I would like to condemn the rude posts of elijahcraig and Misodoctakleidist as being immature and pointless. An argument should never become acrimonious, let alone insulting.


Based on what i know from studying A level physics, the universe isn't infinite.

What can A level physics teach you about something as vast (infinite) as the universe?


"Nothingness" doesn't need to be defined because it has nothing to do with the argument against infinity.

Please explain to me why.


Time is a finite system of measurement which will change in the universe of space-time..

What? Why is time a finite system of measurement? Please explain.


I suppose it is the way a circle is infinite

Excuse me, but a circle is a circle. It is a shape. As I said before it is a mathematical symbol to compress the universe into a more tangible, understandable form. However, that form is completely, and utterly wrong! How on earth can you liken something infinite in all dimensions to a circle, which is clearly finite! It's completely and utterly ludicrous. The circle is but a symbol, nothing more.


I think three things are interrelated. They are infinity, second thermodynamic law and God.

If infinity is exists then 2-nd thermodynamic law isn't applicable to the universe as the whole, so objective reality has no beginning and no ending and there is no sense to use the idea of God.

Modern physical paradigm proclaims 2-nd thermdynamic law as the absolute but it means that all things have the beginning and the ending including the universe. The question what was before the beginning generates the idea of God. I'm not surprised why so many scientist-physicists believing in God there are in science.

This is completely irrelevant. How can scientific laws drawn up on this tiny little planet possibly explain something so vast as the universe? It is pure arrogance to assume something like that.


Why are you measuring non-temporal things with time-centered words like "finite" or "infinite"?

Why are 'finite' and 'infinite' time-centred words? Infinite and finite can be used for anything!


it ihas been proven by Stephen Hawking

How on earth could anyone even begin to prove something like that! Has he been to the very 'edges' (things you think the universe possesses!) of the universe? HE HASN'T EVEN LEFT PLANET EARTH! I refuse to believe the word of a man who has deduced such a thing using a pencil! To use a pencil to define the universe is INSULTING THE UNIVERSE!

These are but a few of the multitude of ridiculous lines in this thread! They have no solid proof! The universe can only be one thing : INFINITE!

NO SCIENCE CAN EVER EXPLAIN THE UNIVERSE FOR IT IS INFINITE. IT WILL NEVER BE CHARTED AND EXPLORED ENTIRELY! THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE...EMBRACE IT! THESE THEORIES HAVE NO PROOF!

Oh and Misodoc : your definition of nothing is actually something. Therefore, it is not 'nothing'. Oh, and how on earth can you say that the universe is expanding? It doesn't need to expand anyway! It's infinite in all dimensions, TIME, SPACE, and all the others our small brains cannot begin to conceive of.

[DaCuBaN]

There's a very good chance both the infinite and finite theories of the universe are incorrect, take a glance at this (http://www.geocities.com/newastronomy/Index.htm)

[sanpal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 10:21 PM




This is completely irrelevant. How can scientific laws drawn up on this tiny little planet possibly explain something so vast as the universe? It is pure arrogance to assume something like that.



"It is elementary, Watson" :-)You can see milliards of stars which have been created on the similar laws through all directions of universe

[7189]

You should not always trust what the scientists tell you. Always question!

And as for those stars...how can you be sure they are stars? What if they are but pinholes in the velvet of night?

Don't trust anything until you have seen it for yourself! That's my philosophy.

In my mind, it would seem illogical for the universe to be finite, simply because nothingness, no matter which way you define it, will always be something.

[Chips]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 04:16 PM
What is God? Is God an entity which encompasses everything? If this is the case...then infinity is God.
Brilliant.

[Vinny Rafarino]

The universe is infinite in all dimensions. To say that it is finite is completely and utterly ludicrous if you cannot define nothingness.


You have no idea what youa re talking about. I suggest you do some research in astro physics regarding the finite universe. .


If the universe is finite, as you say it is, then you are implying that it is like a singular object.

Your problem is that do not understand astro physics.


If the universe is for example 500 light years by 500 light years by 500 light years, then we have a universe that resembles a cube. This is the finite universe you speak of. I ask you again...what is outside of this? The only answer to that question is 'nothingness'. Therefore, I ask you to define nothingness, something which you seem to think is irrelevant for some bizarre reason.

Once again, you are thinking in layman's terms. Please do some research, the internet is at your disposal.


NO SCIENCE CAN EVER EXPLAIN THE UNIVERSE FOR IT IS INFINITE. IT WILL NEVER BE CHARTED AND EXPLORED ENTIRELY! THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE...EMBRACE IT! THESE THEORIES HAVE NO PROOF!


You are absolutely and 100 percent wrong.

I'm glad you feel you know more than the Astro Physics department at NASA. (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/universe_soccer_031008.html)

Read and learn something. (http://www.fact-index.com/u/un/universe.html)


It's infinite in all dimensions, TIME, SPACE, and all the others our small brains cannot begin to conceive of.

Perhaps your brain cannot conceive it (a scenario that is appearing to be closer and closer to fact as this thread grows) but there are most definitely brains that absolutely can.







There's a very good chance both the infinite and finite theories of the universe are incorrect, take a glance at this

You do realise this cat is a quack right Dacuban? He is not a scientist, a professor or a doctor. He is just an average Joe quack.

[DaCuBaN]

Yes, I admit the theory unlikely. The only thing he speaks of that interests me is his ideas on redshift theory - that is, that what we currently believe doesn't hold up to simple mathematical analysis in regards to Einstein.

I mentioned in the first thread I posted in regard to this individual that he was no more than an enthusiast, but he's got some interesting points to make...

here (http://www.geocities.com/newastronomy/outrageous_things_astronomers_wo.htm)

Some of what he says does follow up, but I agree most of it is quite incredulous.

*EDIT*

Also, qualifications do not 'make the man' any more than his profession.

[7189]

astro physics...NASA....blablablabla

You're mind is ruled by scientists...government bodies....OPEN YOUR MIND. How can you trust theories drawn up on a planet using glasses and pencils to observe something as huge and marvellous as the universe? To put your faith in earthly theories to explain the universe is pure arrogance (and idiocy).

This is my last post...for it is clear that your closed minds are locked, and will never open.

I started this thread praising the universe and admiring its beauty, and you have to weigh it down with heavy, tedious, ridiculous, arrogant theories drawn up by mere men. Thanks a bunch.

Adieu, vous Connards.

[Misodoctakleidist]

I would rather trust a scientist then you, you obviously havn't got a clue.

I was gonna ask you what makes you so sure that the universe is infinte but apparently you're now refusing to address your arguments.

[DaCuBaN]

I wasn't sure how much credibility you had to start with, but now you have none. Theses 'scientists' aren't giving the answers... they're propogating theories - just like you or I they are guessing what the answer may be.

Difference is, they bothered to spend 4-12 years in education studying the theories of past times to actually give them some kind of foundation on which to base their thought process.


How can you trust theories drawn up on a planet using glasses and pencils to observe something as huge and marvellous as the universe?

How can we trust any theory laid down by the feeble tiny mind of a human? WE CAN'T! But they sure as hell have done a lot more work and put a lot more thought into this than you


I started this thread praising the universe and admiring its beauty, and you have to weigh it down with heavy, tedious, ridiculous, arrogant theories drawn up by mere men. Thanks a bunch

You are more than welceome. If the facts as we know them frighten you, go stick your head back in the sand.

[7189]

I think the truth of the matter is : my facts frightened you.

People who believe the universe is finite : narrow-minded
People who believe the universe is infinite : enlightened

Oh...and what's all this talk of sand? I haven't been to a beach in donkey's years!

4-12 years of research aint gonna tell you jack about the universe my friend...and you still haven't addressed my points...pathetic.

[7189]

Oh and by the way...how did you acquire those groovy member names?

[DaCuBaN]

By being 'groovy members'. Giving Malte head helps too.


You should not always trust what the scientists tell you. Always question!


You shouldn't trust what anyone tells you, but should seek to find if there is a consenus opinion. Given that reality is subjective, we can only define what is really really by the consensus of society, and as such if something appears not to 'bear weight' to the consensus, it is most likely false. I quite deliberately didn't get involved in the topic.

Personally I don't believe the universe can be infinite... we may well be in some form of greater sphere - a macro-universe so to speak, but the idea of an infinite universe is to close to the idea of god being omnipotent, omnicogniscant and omnipresent.

[7189]

I don't see what god has to do with it but never mind. I think this topic is exhausted! Ah well, each to his own. I still believe the universe is infinite.

Oh...and the social consensus in the 20s/30s in Germany was that Jews were bastards. What a load of shite that was...society's the bastard. I don't trust society either... I don't trust anything...not even myself! Although I agree with what you're trying to say : that we should look at many different viewpoints before we form our opinions. I have already, and this is mine :

THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE

[DaCuBaN]

I don't see what god has to do with it but never mind

It's follows pantheistic lines

[sanpal]

And as for those stars...how can you be sure they are stars? What if they are but pinholes in the velvet of night?
Yes, of course they are pinholes after shooting with boy's catapults by angels

[7189]

That's the spirit.

[Misodoctakleidist]

To sum up this thread, 7189 refuses to accept science becuase he can't comprehend it.

[7189]

Pantheism? By Zeus!

[7189]

7189 refuses to accept scientific theories concerning the universe because science will never be able to comprehend the universe.

I think I will call you Mr Snide from now on Misodok you little science ho.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Science has comrehended the universe, isn't you argument based on the fact that you can't comprehend "nothingness?"

[7189]

Can you? Can anyone?

What you say is 'nothing' is an absence of certain things...but what you outlaw is the presence of other things. Thus, if everything outside the realm of what you define as 'the finite universe' is nothing (absence of light, matter, time blablabla) there will still be a presence of something (you cannot comprehend) therefore proving that the universe is infinite. Even the term nothing and the implications attached to it is 'something'.

Anyway, how can you say its finite...have you been to its edges? Our telescopes can only see stars very close to us...so how on earth can scientific theory state that the universe is finite?

If you are bloody annoying and say 'how can you say it's infinite?' I reply asking you the question which has been at the core of this damn discussion : what is nothing? Then you give an answer which is not sufficient, and which does not truly define nothingness, for it is still something...proving the universe is infinite.

Until a scientist manages to actually define nothing properly (which is impossible by the way), and also manages to see to the 'edge' of the universe (a construct of your closed minds) I will continue to believe that the universe is infinite.

[GoaRedStar]

The universe is finite,in fact it is expanding very fast because of something call Dark Energy and something call Dark Matter.

In a couple of billion years from now it going to be harder to see other galaxy.

If something is expanding that means its not infinite.



If you like to know more about the Universe,Infinity,Dark Energy,and Dark Matter.

Go to Space.com

or search for a astrophysic website.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 07:48 PM
I think the truth of the matter is : my facts frightened you.

People who believe the universe is finite : narrow-minded
People who believe the universe is infinite : enlightened

Oh...and what's all this talk of sand? I haven't been to a beach in donkey's years!

4-12 years of research aint gonna tell you jack about the universe my friend...and you still haven't addressed my points...pathetic.
I suppose the lat one was not "your last post"; too bad for us.

This one is even more laughable than the rest.



7189 refuses to accept scientific theories concerning the universe because science will never be able to comprehend the universe.



The Comrade RAF will have to advise 7189 that 7189 will indefinitely remain
ignorant to reality.

Comrade RAF feels sorry for 7189.

[Hiero]

7189 if you beleive that we cant explain nothingness then wouldnt it be more logical to say that we cant know if the universe is finite or not.

I dont think there is a technique in science, that if one thing cant be explain we assume the other to be true.

[Anti-Prophet]

Do any of you know how many Angles can dance on the point of a pin?

[Misodoctakleidist]

Is that Angles as in the northern european tribe?

[Subversive Pessimist]

You mean hells angels? :unsure:

[Anti-Prophet]

When i asked "Do any of you know how many angels [i know i said angles but i meant angels] can dance on the point of a pin?" i was making the point that trying to prove wether the universe is infinite or not is as meaningless as the time the monks had a debate about how many angels could dance on the point of a pin at the same time.

Even the "Space Seen as Finite, Shaped Like a Soccer Ball" article doesn't prove that the universe is finite or infinite at all. Even if the article is correct it does not mean the universe is finite. The article says "The new idea involves blocks of space with opposite faces abstractly glued together, the researchers write in the Oct. 9 issue of the journal Nature. An object sliding off an edge of one block will instantly slide into view at the edge of its opposing block." This could mean that there is an infinite number of identical "blocks of space" all side by side and one on top of the other. The result would be the same and there would be no way to prove it wrong. For example: if a spaceship travels threw the edge of this "blocks of space" he will reappear at the opposite edge not because it is the same spaceship but because the identical "block of space" connected at that opposite edge has also sent an identical spaceship into this "block of space". The universe could be finite in the sense that it is the same "blocks of space" over and over as you travel across the universe, therefor it is one "blocks of space" but infinite in the since there is no limit to the amount of identical "blocks of space".

The universe is infinite and finite at the same time. What the universe is at this moment is very different than what it was a few seconds ago since everything is always in motion. therefor the universe that existed a few seconds ago has ended. Everything that existed a few seconds ago still exists but in a different for so in this sense it didn't really end.

[7189]

Hence, I am right.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 08:34 PM
Science has comrehended the universe, isn't you argument based on the fact that you can't comprehend "nothingness?"
Science might not know everything about the universe but it has to have comprehended it if we are descussing the universe right now. :rolleyes: