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Y2A
2nd July 2004, 02:18
Quite defiant indeed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3855359.stm

Defiant Saddam appears in court

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40335000/jpg/_40335365_saddam_b203_5.jpg

TOP DETAINEES
Tariq Aziz - Deputy PM
Taha Yassin Ramadan - Vice-President
Sultan Hashim Ahmad al-Tal - Defence Minister
Abid Hamid al-Tikrit - Presidential secretary
Ali Hasan al-Majid - "Chemical Ali"
Watban Ibrahim Hassan al-Tikriti - Saddam Hussein's half-brother - Intelligence Minister

PRELIMINARY CHARGES
Anfal campaign against Kurds, late 1980s
Gassing Kurds in Halabja, 1988
Invasion of Kuwait , 1990
Crushing Kurdish and Shia rebellions after 1991 Gulf War
Killing political activists over 30 years
Massacring members of Kurdish Barzani tribe in 1980s
Killing religious leaders, 1974

Iraq's ex-leader Saddam Hussein has made a defiant first appearance before an Iraqi judge, branding President George W Bush as the "real criminal".
He defended Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990, said he was still president and rejected the court's jurisdiction.

He arrived in handcuffs and chains at the court near Baghdad airport to hear charges of war crimes and genocide.

TV pictures of the hearing were released to international broadcasters shortly after the hearing finished.

The images - cleared for broadcast by the US military - were the first of Saddam Hussein since his capture in December. They showed Iraq's former president looking thin, haggard and with a trimmed, grey beard.

Saddam Hussein, described by reporters at the hearing as both defiant and downcast, denounced the proceedings as "theatre" and questioned the validity of the law he was to be tried under.

"I am Saddam Hussein, President of Iraq," he replied when asked to confirm his identity at the hearing, which took place inside one of his former palaces, now a sprawling US base.

The BBC's Arab affairs analyst, Magdi Abdelhadi, says this is the first time an Arab ruler has appeared before a judge to face charges related to abuse of power and the brutal oppression of his own people.

He says it is an historic moment not only for Iraq but for the entire region.

Ousted Arab rulers were usually either summarily executed or forced to flee the country, he adds.

Saddam rebuked

Seven preliminary charges were read out to Saddam Hussein, including accusations over the campaign against the Kurds in the 1980s, which included the use of chemical weapons in Halabja, and the suppression of Kurdish and Shia uprisings after the 1991 Gulf War.

Hearing the charge relating to Halabja, where about 5,000 Kurdish civilians died in a single day, Saddam Hussein said, "Yes, I heard about that."

He became most agitated when he was accused of invading Kuwait in 1990.

"How can you, as an Iraqi, say the 'invasion of Kuwait' when Kuwait is part of Iraq?" he asked the judge, whose face was not shown on the film and whose identity is being kept secret for security reasons.

He said he invaded Kuwait "for the Iraqi people" and referred to Kuwaitis as "dogs", for which he was rebuked by the judge.

Saddam Hussein refused at the end to sign legal papers confirming that he had been read his rights and understood the case against him, saying he wanted his lawyer in court.

He was then taken back to jail, while the charges were read out one-by-one against the 11 other accused.

These include former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz and Ali Hasan al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali" for his alleged role in poison gas attacks, who were formally transferred from US to Iraqi custody on Wednesday.

Defence concerns

Saddam Hussein's lawyers have already challenged the court's legitimacy.

One member of his 20-strong defence team, Mohammed Rashdan, told the BBC's Today programme that they had been denied access to their client.

He also alleged that they had received death threats from the Iraqi government.

Iraq's new national security adviser, Mowaffaq al-Rubaie, has insisted the process will not be a show trial.

"As an Iraqi interim government, we promise our people and the Arab world and the outside world, we promise that Saddam will stand a fair trial," he said in a BBC interview.

The interim Iraqi government has restored the death penalty, which was suspended by the US-led coalition.

Mr Rubaie said Saddam Hussein could face execution if convicted.

The full trials may not get under way until next year as many issues still need to be resolved and could take months or even years.

Witness protection

The BBC's Christian Frasier in Baghdad says there are concerns in Iraq that crucial evidence has still to be gathered.

The Coalition Provisional Authority has identified more than 250 mass graves, but as yet there have been no full forensic exhumations and investigations are being hampered by the lack of security on the ground.

Our correspondent says without a system in place to gather statements and protect those who come forward there are fears that many valuable witnesses will be lost.

But the interim Iraqi government has dismissed such concerns, insisting that the evidence is already overwhelming, as Saddam Hussein's regime was meticulous in recording the most minute details of abuses carried out.

DaCuBaN
2nd July 2004, 02:22
it is an historic moment not only for Iraq but for the entire region.


It would be... if this government was an elected one.

I'd rather the US had just kept him locked away until a proper Iraqi government was in place. I'm sure there's more than enough evidence for the guy to 'swing', and all that happens here is that doubt is cast onto the validity of the court that's trying him

If he's a war criminal, get him to the hague. If they want him tried by Iraqi's, then wait until there actually is an Iraqi government. Right now there isn't, despite what we are 'told'.

(*
2nd July 2004, 02:24
I liked this part...


The judge, who officials have refused to identify for security reasons, said he represented the Iraqi people and acted under coalition authority.


"So you are an Iraqi representing the coalition forces?" Saddam asked.


"No," the judge replied. "I am an Iraqi representing the Iraqi judicial system."


Speaking in strong tones, as if he was still commander in chief, the 67-year-old Saddam offered a bit of advice.


"The judicial system in Iraq always represents the will of the people," he said. "You should not work according to the law of the occupying forces; these are invading forces."

Y2A
2nd July 2004, 02:29
I agree that war criminals should not be tried by the state of there "crimes" but rather at the international court at the Hague like Milosevic but you must also understand that the U.S would face critizism from Iraqi's if they did not hand him over to the Iraqis for the trial. It would be like handing over Pinochet to the Hague instead of to the state of Chile for a trial.....while it would be for the best, it would also generate anger from those who suffered under the reguime.

Y2A
2nd July 2004, 02:31
So in your anger towards the U.S you'd perfer Saddam?

DaCuBaN
2nd July 2004, 02:31
I agree - but this is not an Iraqi court. That's pretty much the problem. Of course I'd rather he was tried at an international court - it would remain more objective in my opinion - but I accept that the people of Iraq will most likely want to keep it at home, so to speak.

I'm afraid Hussein hit the nail on the head with the quote that Crescent posted.

Y2A
2nd July 2004, 02:51
So if they do have national elections, by October(which I believe is what the Bush Administration said, correct me if I am wrong) then will you still agree with the statement made in your previous post?

DaCuBaN
2nd July 2004, 02:53
I'm not sure when the US plans to give the Iraqi's the chance to decide their own fate, but if and when it happens I would be content with Hussein facing trial in Iraq.

I'd still be happier if it was at an international court (outside the US and UK obviously) but beggars can't be choosers.

Rex_20XD6
2nd July 2004, 04:31
Saddam is looking a lot better now, then when they pulled him out of his hole!

Y2A
2nd July 2004, 04:36
Yeah, I noticed that too. They cut off his arab afro thing he had going on.

RedCeltic
2nd July 2004, 05:04
It is a Kangroo court that Saddam had rightfully called "Theatre" and has more to do with showing that things are truly getting done in Iraq than anything else. It would actually be much better if there was an actual Government set up by the actual people of Iraq through a democratic election before they dragged him into court.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no love for this guy... however some of the charges placed on him are questionable. We all know he's done more than enough to earn his execution, however two of the charges levied against him are pretty weak in my eyes.

The charged him with putting down an uprising, however this seems pretty bogus as he is being charged with doing something that anyone in power would do. Not wanting yourself to be overthrown just doesn't seem like a crime.

The other is the Invasion of Kuwait. If a leader can be tried for a militery action of his government when he was in power such as the invasion of another countery, just think of how many other leaders we could put on trial! The list is pretty long but Bush is the first to come to mind.

(*
2nd July 2004, 05:19
The gassing of the kurds is also questionable According to CIA analyst Stephen Pelletiere, the Iranians did it.

http://www.truthout.com/docs_02/020303C.htm

RedCeltic
2nd July 2004, 05:34
Yes, there are several ways his lawyers could go at that charge. They could argue it was an act of war and use the evidence in that linked website, or they could go at it as Saddam had mentioned in the hearing yesterday, basicly that he can't be held responsible for what the lower ranks do. This is after all what George W. Bush uses to get himself off the hook for the Iraqi Prisoners thing.. possibly one of the main reasons he is being tried by America's Iraqi stooges and not by an international court. (The death penalty is another reason)

apathy maybe
2nd July 2004, 12:48
The reason that Saddam Hussein has to have a fair and open trial (which will drag out for several years), is for facts to come out.

The facts that will already know, about who gave whom what and when. But also the facts we don't know.

Hopefully this will be a big embarrassment for the USA.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
2nd July 2004, 13:10
I wonder how the American Facists justify that Bush sr. Rumsfeld, Powell etc don't have to appear in front of the court and Saddam has. They all took part in the gassing of the Kurds. Well ya, what can you expect from a fake democracy.

monkeydust
2nd July 2004, 19:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 02:51 AM
So if they do have national elections, by October
As far as I was aware the original date was January 2005, apparently this, now, is to be delayed.

Until then, we have to stomach the CIA's old pal, Ayad Allawi.

Loknar
2nd July 2004, 21:26
The UN's mandate says that war crminals must be charged by a crminal court set up by the UN, or be tried in the country where the crimes were comitted.

elijahcraig
3rd July 2004, 03:12
So in your anger towards the U.S you'd perfer Saddam?

Yes.

fuerzasocialista
3rd July 2004, 10:48
THE REAL CRIMINAL IS BUSH


I realize that Saddam has been accused of atrocities against humanity but you have to respect that statement.