I Just Returned From Cuba!! [Archive]

Commie Girl

29th June 2004, 01:59

We just got home on Sunday....We were in Matanzas, Jibicoa, and Havana....Havana is beautiful, bustling historic city. The streets are extremely clean, the people friendly and happy to meet us from Canada!

Old Havana is crowded like any city, full of culture, Spanish architecture, any person we met is more than willing to talk and help if you get lost, like we did! A very safe city, I wouldnt describe it as a hole at all!

Stay posted to our web site, it will be updated in a couple hours with pictures, etc.!

My only regret is that on Monday, June 20th, there were up to a million people in Havana protesting the tightened embargo on their Island, and Castro was speaking! Sadly, we couldnt be there....

New Havana is equal to any other modern metropolis!

We will also be posting a lot of video too. This may take a few days.

Pawn Power

29th June 2004, 02:09

did you stay in a hotel ?
how long did you stay?

:cuba: :cuba: :cuba:

gummo

29th June 2004, 02:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 11:05 PM
:D Hola!!!

Greetings from the Cuban people!

We are currently updating our server and web page from our trip to this glorious, beautiful country!

After spending a week talking to as many people as we could find, I must say that these are the happiest, and most socially conscious people known to humankind!!!

We were graciously welcomed into many homes, you NEVER will find a homeless person in Cuba, everyone is healthy, well fed, clothed and have some form of shelter....when the U$ can begin to even come close to this society, then maybe the rest of the world will respect them and listen to them.....

Patria O Muerte!!!

www.rdab.ca
Please go back and stay there.

Thanks!

Louis Pio

29th June 2004, 02:28

Please go back and stay there.

Now if you are so kind to go back to the hole were you left your brain I think we would all be gratefull. Or alternatively you could maybe learn to argue a point?

Commie Girl

29th June 2004, 03:38

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:09 PM
did you stay in a hotel ?
how long did you stay?

:cuba: :cuba: :cuba:
:) we only had a week, and we stayed in a hotel, but also made friends and stayed at their homes!

gummo

29th June 2004, 03:45

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 02:28 AM

Now if you are so kind to go back to the hole were you left your brain I think we would all be gratefull. Or alternatively you could maybe learn to argue a point?
I think I did make a point. If you enjoy something that much you should stay there.

What the hell is your problem?

Commie Girl

29th June 2004, 03:50

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 09:45 PM
I think I did make a point. If you enjoy something that much you should stay there.

What the hell is your problem?
:) We enjoyed Cuba and can admire Castro and what he has done, without moving there.....

elijahcraig

29th June 2004, 04:09

Hey, Gummo, are you a Harmony Korine fan?

I wish I could go to Cuba.

STI

29th June 2004, 04:10

Hmm. I wonder why no cappies have posted so far... :unsure:

Fidelbrand

29th June 2004, 04:54

sexy, did you try the Lechon Asado? or go to the :a Bodeguita del Medio for a good Mojito?

It's cool to hear from you that the people are doing fine. Right now, i m doing a lot of research on Cuba, probably will go within 6 months or so ~

Louis Pio

29th June 2004, 11:54

I think I did make a point. If you enjoy something that much you should stay there.

What the hell is your problem?

The problem is that I don't think that was the point you were trying to make. But fair enough if it was. Then just remember to stay at Disneyland the next time you go, thanks

Professor Moneybags

29th June 2004, 13:54

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 04:10 AM
Hmm. I wonder why no cappies have posted so far... :unsure:
It's easy to praise any place from the ivory tower, though, isn't it ? Especially when you are only there for a week. Living there might very well be a different story.

Lardlad95

29th June 2004, 14:03

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 29 2004, 01:54 PM
It's easy to praise any place from the ivory tower, though, isn't it ? Especially when you are only there for a week. Living there might very well be a different story.
I suppose the same could be said for any country. THinking about it from an objective standpoint america would seem great. but we know that aint the truth

perceptÂ¡on

29th June 2004, 14:16

Yeah don't get jaded from a one-week visit. Cuba is cool and the people are great, but it's not the workers' paradise you make it out to be. I remember you claiming you were going to be 'objective' in your analysis of the island... but it seems you've thrown objectivity out the window and chose instead unqualified praise.

When I first went to Cuba I expected it to be a sh¡thole; it only took me about a day to fall in love with the place. But that being said, how many times did the 'policia especialazades' stop you and your cuban friends and ask for papers? (cubans and tourists can't walk down the street together or they will be stopped... this is not propaganda, I witnessed it firsthand; in fact I had to bribe a cop with $10 to keep one of my friends from getting locked up). How many times did you get swarmed by people asking for a dollar to buy a sandwich, or asking for a shirt or some clothes cause they can't afford them? How many times did someone try to sell you a box of fake Cohibas? How many pretty young afro-cuban beauties offered to sleep with you for $30?

I love Cuba, but romanticizing it won't fix the problems, only identifying and addressing them will.

Commie Girl

29th June 2004, 14:41

Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 29 2004, 08:16 AM
Yeah don't get jaded from a one-week visit. Cuba is cool and the people are great, but it's not the workers' paradise you make it out to be. I remember you claiming you were going to be 'objective' in your analysis of the island... but it seems you've thrown objectivity out the window and chose instead unqualified praise.

When I first went to Cuba I expected it to be a sh¡thole; it only took me about a day to fall in love with the place. But that being said, how many times did the 'policia especialazades' stop you and your cuban friends and ask for papers? (cubans and tourists can't walk down the street together or they will be stopped... this is not propaganda, I witnessed it firsthand; in fact I had to bribe a cop with $10 to keep one of my friends from getting locked up). How many times did you get swarmed by people asking for a dollar to buy a sandwich, or asking for a shirt or some clothes cause they can't afford them? How many times did someone try to sell you a box of fake Cohibas? How many pretty young afro-cuban beauties offered to sleep with you for $30?

I love Cuba, but romanticizing it won't fix the problems, only identifying and addressing them will.
We were stopped ONCE by the 'policia' when we accidentally drove through an intersection....otherwise, we never even had our passports or any papers with us in all our trips around the country. We made friends with an Afro-Cuban family and they went everywhere with us and never were stopped. I was pleasantly surprised that they could swim with us at the beach at our hotel! Too bad you had those experiences...

The policia even posed for photos and, as you will soon see on our website, they enjoyed being filmed also!

Noone asked us for money, but we were hustled in a market in Havana to buy cigars! We did by a box of 25 Montecristo #2's for $50 from some 'shady' guys, but in all fairness they did provide the requisite stamps and papers.

You can't question our objectivity because we had great experiences wherever we went!

We brought with us alot of our kids toys and t-shirts to give to people. I know life is harder for them, but they truly seem happy with their lives and they CANNOT understand why the U$ wont just let them be themselves....you know, mutual respect.

Our wedding coordinator, Vivia, studied University in Russia and her husband is an engineer with oil and Gas...He has been offered many times to work in Canda and make alot more money but they have chosen to stay in their own country that they love.

perceptÂ¡on

29th June 2004, 14:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 02:41 PM
We did by a box of 25 Montecristo #2's for $50 from some 'shady' guys, but in all fairness they did provide the requisite stamps and papers.

They are fake. Yes, the stamps and papers too.

Did he tell you his brother works in the cigar factory?

Commie Girl

29th June 2004, 15:53

I dont want to debate this endlessly, but we also bought cigars from a store,my husband KNOWS his cigars and these are not banana leaves, they are all the same. Everything passed inspection coming through customs....even the hologram on the stickers are real!

gummo

29th June 2004, 16:31

My mother in law lives in Miami and has been to Cuba on 2-3 different occassions. She loves to visit but doesn't pretend she would want to live there.

gummo

29th June 2004, 16:40

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 04:09 AM
Hey, Gummo, are you a Harmony Korine fan?

I wish I could go to Cuba.
Yes

Eddie999

29th June 2004, 20:15

Sounds like you had a good time. I hope to go myself someday. Also, a question to anyone who knows. What trade embargoes/restrictions, if any, does the US have in place against Cuba? Thanks.

perceptÂ¡on

29th June 2004, 21:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 08:15 PM
What trade embargoes/restrictions, if any, does the US have in place against Cuba? Thanks.
You probably want a link, but just off the top of my head: No US company or its subsidiaries(i.e. Coca-Cola Mexico) may trade with Cuba except eligible foodstuffs (which must be paid with cash). Even Medicine is excluded thanks to Helm-Burton, and the 'subsidiary' part is particualry damaging considering that most corporations are multi-national in scope.

Lardlad95

30th June 2004, 01:08

Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 29 2004, 02:16 PM
How many pretty young afro-cuban beauties offered to sleep with you for $30?

30 bucks for sex? Well damn...and you say Cuba isnt better than america...

Commie Girl

30th June 2004, 01:42

:) An interesting essay on Cuba-U$ relations (http://www.ianchadwick.com/essays/cuba.html)

You can check out our work-in-progress site at our web site (http://www.rdab.ca) and see the Commandante film by Oliver Stone!

Eddie999

30th June 2004, 10:20

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 01:42 AM
:) An interesting essay on Cuba-U$ relations (http://www.ianchadwick.com/essays/cuba.html)

Wow. I've just read that essay and it just re-affirms my belief that the US government is evil. Luckily, like all empires, the US will eventually fall and die.

Also, who is most likely to replace Castro when he dies? Will Cuba become a US puppet state or will a leader rise who is anti-US as Castro is? What are people's views on this?

Raisa

30th June 2004, 11:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 01:08 AM
30 bucks for sex? Well damn...and you say Cuba isnt better than america...
You know, you could just be nice and get it for free <_<

gummo

30th June 2004, 11:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 11:30 AM
You know, you could just be nice and get it for free <_<
I think you just got an offer lardlad.

Tiki Man

30th June 2004, 11:55

"I think you just got an offer lardlad"

Please be more helpful in your future posts. I'll set a following example.

I fully agree with Raisa, sex should be something simply intimate.

Commie Girl

30th June 2004, 16:12

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 04:20 AM
Wow. I've just read that essay and it just re-affirms my belief that the US government is evil. Luckily, like all empires, the US will eventually fall and die.

Also, who is most likely to replace Castro when he dies? Will Cuba become a US puppet state or will a leader rise who is anti-US as Castro is? What are people's views on this?
People I talked to in Cuba are very confident that Castro has picked a successor and they seem to feel comfortable about the future. I had always heard it would be Raul Castro, Fidel's brother, but they think it is someone else!

Reading that essay is interesting, so is his page on the chronology of events....

STI

30th June 2004, 16:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 11:30 AM
You know, you could just be nice and get it for free <_<
I've been nice for 17 years and all I've ever gotten is a breastfeeding :(

redstar2000

30th June 2004, 16:56

When discussing different countries, we often hear at least one snide remark to the effect of "well, have you ever been there? How the fuck would you know what it's really like? Blah, blah, blah, etc."

The interesting thing about this thread is that two different people went to Cuba, both favorably disposed...and one returns with unstinting praise while the other returns with "mixed opinions" (shall we say).

I think it illustrates an important point: be wary of all "first-hand" accounts...they could be "true" and still be misleading.

Skepticism is always in order.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Commie Girl

30th June 2004, 18:32

gummo

30th June 2004, 19:20

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 06:32 PM
Update on U$ Economic Terrorism (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3849419.stm)
If the old bastard would just die we could extend US1 to Cuba and they would get a good financial shot in the arm. Just make sure you fill up before getting on the 90 mile bridge ;)

Why should the US support a country that is against our way of life. Fuck 'em.

DaCuBaN

30th June 2004, 20:03

Why should the US support a country that is against our way of life. Fuck 'em

There are very few nations left on the planet who wholly endorse the 'American way of life'

That aside, is it not pretty obvious that by helping them you could perhaps show that you are not the 'bad guys' after all?

Wait... no... it's an irrational fear combined with bigotry... right? ;)

gummo

30th June 2004, 20:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 08:03 PM

There are very few nations left on the planet who wholly endorse the 'American way of life'

That aside, is it not pretty obvious that by helping them you could perhaps show that you are not the 'bad guys' after all?

Wait... no... it's an irrational fear combined with bigotry... right? ;)
Name a nation that is "wholly" endorsed.

That aside, is it not pretty obvious that by helping them you could perhaps show that you are not the 'bad guys' after all?

Tell that to the people that had to flee to other countries, losing everything they had, when Castro came to power.

See, to me dictatorship is "bad" and not liking the Cuban government doesn't make me a "bad guy".

I have zero fear of the Cuban goverment. The Boy Scouts in the US could take case of Castro if he ever gets out of hand. When it comes to communism or socialism I am a bigot. I hate it in all forms. I hate social security, I hate socialized medicine, etc. I love freedom, I love opportunity, I especially love all of the opportunity that is available in the US!

DaCuBaN

30th June 2004, 20:19

When it comes to communism or socialism I am a bigot. I hate it in all forms. I hate social security, I hate socialized medicine, etc. I love freedom, I love opportunity, I especially love all of the opportunity that is available in the US!

Bigotry is an irrational fear - I would ask that you do some reading. I don't want you to necissarly change your mind, but I'd rather you were here with some knoweldge of that you wish to refute.

Name a nation that is "wholly" endorsed

By another nation? Well in the case of the US, the UK does a pretty good job (on a government level) of endorsing the country both policially and culturally. I believe that Fidel Castro also endorses Chavez in Venezeuala...

These are just two examples... there are countless more.

to me dictatorship is "bad" and not liking the Cuban government doesn't make me a "bad guy".

But by not helping the people of Cuba, you make the entire country look entirely heartless and self-serving. The US is supposed to be the 'champion of freedom and democracy' for the rest of the world, so why not act like it?

Tell that to the people that had to flee to other countries, losing everything they had, when Castro came to power.

You mean those who supported Batista?

Do some homework buddy, I don't know anyone who supports that man ;)

Commie Girl

30th June 2004, 20:27

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 01:20 PM
If the old bastard would just die we could extend US1 to Cuba and they would get a good financial shot in the arm. Just make sure you fill up before getting on the 90 mile bridge ;)

Why should the US support a country that is against our way of life. Fuck 'em.
Have you tried reading some of the FACTS on Cuba - U$ relations?

gummo

30th June 2004, 20:27

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 08:19 PM

Bigotry is an irrational fear - I would ask that you do some reading. I don't want you to necissarly change your mind, but I'd rather you were here with some knoweldge of that you wish to refute.

By another nation? Well in the case of the US, the UK does a pretty good job (on a government level) of endorsing the country both policially and culturally. I believe that Fidel Castro also endorses Chavez in Venezeuala...

These are just two examples... there are countless more.

But by not helping the people of Cuba, you make the entire country look entirely heartless and self-serving. The US is supposed to be the 'champion of freedom and democracy' for the rest of the world, so why not act like it?

You mean those who supported Batista?

Do some homework buddy, I don't know anyone who supports that man ;)
Are you tolerant of Capitalism?

I know that the people of the US are not heartless and self-serving. The money that is spent by the US to help people all over the world can attest to that. Are we not acting like it in Iraq right now? Surely you wouldn't say we need to be champions of freedom and then turn around and say we shouldn't be in Iraq.

Not all people that fled were supporters of Batista and your a fool if you think otherwise.

gummo

30th June 2004, 20:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 08:27 PM
Have you tried reading some of the FACTS on Cuba - U$ relations?
Throughout the years I have read all kinds of stuff on Cuba. But I still believe that the Cuban people submitting to a dictator is the root of their problems. One man should not have the power that Castro has. The Cuban people have adopted policies that are incompatible with the US. As a result they should not expect our help at all.

DaCuBaN

30th June 2004, 20:47

Firstly, I'm of the ilk that says you should help regardless of the situation. There was a quote I once read about a man treating a sick dog... the dog kept biting him, trying to maul him and generally just wanted the man to leave - yet he continued to treat it and eventually once fit again let it go

My point is that you as an individual shouldn't count yourself so highly that others count less than you. In fact the opposite should be true - you should hold everyone above you.

Are you tolerant of Capitalism?

I live in it don't I? Yes, I am tolerant of the system - I'm also not a 'mass protester' as many on this site are - I simply believe it aides the capitalist cause by allowing them to 'have their cake and eat it too'. I severely disapprove of it, but that wouldn't stop me from giving aide to anyone... regardless.

I know that the people of the US are not heartless and self-serving. The money that is spent by the US to help people all over the world can attest to that

My point is that the US allows it's political and military goals to get ahead of the altruism of it's people. My sister is raising her family up in Oregon right now, so I'm quite aware that the 'Amerikkka is evil' argument is pure rot.

Surely you wouldn't say we need to be champions of freedom and then turn around and say we shouldn't be in Iraq

I don't say that you are the champions of freedom and democracy. Certainly not with things like the Patriot Act in, you don't have an awful lot of 'freedom' and you are living in a representative democracy - meaning elected representatives are selected rather than a democracy where it is rule by the people

True democracy is considered inefficient and implausable, as it would amount to the entire populous having referendums all the time. Sounds great to me! :D

As for being in Iraq, well I would say now is the time to get out. I don't believe we needed to go in when we did, I believe that the UN would've handled the situation acceptably. But now we're in I think the time has come to get out.

Not all people that fled were supporters of Batista and your a fool if you think otherwise.

No, quite true. A lot feared what was going to come.

What history has now shown us though is that they really didn't have an awful lot to fear - provided they toe'd the line. I'm not going to start defending Fidel Castro - he's just another man and I firmly believe that power should NEVER be concentrated as it is there, but they are not the evil country they are made out to be, nor is Fidel an especially evil man.

fuerzasocialista

3rd July 2004, 10:25

If only the people of my country were better educated in order to understand the importance of the '59 revolution in Cuba and how that is an example to us all of what could be accomplished if there would be unity amongst us. How beautiful it would be to swiftly cut the hand of U$ intervention in Latin America and take control of our own destinies instead of having the U$ rape us of all our resources and money.

Una revolucion Socialista es una evolucion del espiritu nacional.

Commie Girl

3rd July 2004, 17:38

:) Our website has been updated with videos of Havana and some pics as well

www.rdab.ca

Postteen

3rd July 2004, 22:04

Bueno...

bobby

4th July 2004, 23:42

Thanks for the pics.

I've never been to Cuba, but I know a few people who have been. They had good reports to tell.

Touchstone

8th July 2004, 17:45

Gummo, are you taking shots at Boy Scouts?? Besides the fact that they promote nationalism and right-wing thinking, they are a good organazation. I am a Life Scout. I mean, i'm probably one of the only coummunist Scouts out there. Do you have firsthand experience in Cuba gummo?? No, you dont. These guys (and girl) do.

Sabocat

8th July 2004, 18:05

I hate social security, I hate socialized medicine, etc. I love freedom, I love opportunity, I especially love all of the opportunity that is available in the US!

You realize that Social Security is the only thing keeping a lot of elderly and infirmed people alive in the U.S. don't you? So you advocate the working poor, the janitors, maids, construction laborers, etc. just work till they die? A lot of these people will never have enough money to "put away" for retirement. At least Social Security keeps some (not all) of them from starving to death.

With regards to a national health plan, I guess you think only the wealthy should be entitled to healthcare. The rest can go fuck themselves right? American corporations have been continually cutting back on providing health care for workers. Do you have any idea what something like Blue Cross Blue Shield charges for self insurance for a family? Do you think you could afford 1400 dollars a month for medical coverage for your family if you worked at a place for 7 dollars an hour? You might, but you'd have to give up the little things like food, clothing, housing.

In the same breath, you make this stupid statement....

I know that the people of the US are not heartless and self-serving.

...And yet you hate providing for the poor, sick and disenfranchised. Make up your fucking mind, cracker.

gummo

8th July 2004, 18:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 06:05 PM

You realize that Social Security is the only thing keeping a lot of elderly and infirmed people alive in the U.S. don't you? So you advocate the working poor, the janitors, maids, construction laborers, etc. just work till they die? A lot of these people will never have enough money to "put away" for retirement. At least Social Security keeps some (not all) of them from starving to death.

With regards to a national health plan, I guess you think only the wealthy should be entitled to healthcare. The rest can go fuck themselves right? American corporations have been continually cutting back on providing health care for workers. Do you have any idea what something like Blue Cross Blue Shield charges for self insurance for a family? Do you think you could afford 1400 dollars a month for medical coverage for your family if you worked at a place for 7 dollars an hour? You might, but you'd have to give up the little things like food, clothing, housing.

In the same breath, you make this stupid statement....

...And yet you hate providing for the poor, sick and disenfranchised. Make up your fucking mind, cracker.
You realize that if they were allowed to invest the money that they were forced to give to Social Security they would be doing a lot better than just being kept "alive".
Why is Social Security meant to keep people from starving to death? Isn't that what wellfair is for. If people want to pay into social security and have the government run their retirement plan then so be it. I would rather take the money I pay into Social Security and invest it in actually money making plans.

You are not owed anything. Nothing. Zero.

Sabocat

8th July 2004, 18:38

You realize that if they were allowed to invest the money that they were forced to give to Social Security they would be doing a lot better than just being kept "alive".

Unless of course you invested in the last bubble that wiped out most small investors. Try using that logic on the people who worked for Enron, and put their life savings into the company stock, thinking that it would be a nice retirement account. A lot of the older employees now have working 'til death to look forward to. Also most working class people do not have the time, skill or money to research stocks and/or pay for a broker. So your theory of "investing the money that they were forced to give" is shit.

If you're making 7 bucks an hour, how much social security do you think you pay per week? Do you really think that extra 20 bucks per week is going to set you up for retirement? Do you think that if they had that extra 20 dollars in the check per week, that they wouldn't use it to better feed, cloth, insure themselves?

Why is Social Security meant to keep people from starving to death? Isn't that what wellfair is for.

Well, seeing as you are only entitled to recieve Welfare for 2-5 years now in your entire life, I guess that wouldn't work out too well would it. On top of having a lifetime limit, you have to subsidize it with work.

You are not owed anything. Nothing. Zero.

Then I guess we can expect full repayment of Social Security benefits from your father and mother (if they're old enough, or in the future), grandfather and grandmother then. I'll tell the GAO to be on the lookout. :lol:

gummo

8th July 2004, 19:43

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 06:38 PM

Unless of course you invested in the last bubble that wiped out most small investors. Try using that logic on the people who worked for Enron, and put their life savings into the company stock, thinking that it would be a nice retirement account. A lot of the older employees now have working 'til death to look forward to. Also most working class people do not have the time, skill or money to research stocks and/or pay for a broker. So your theory of "investing the money that they were forced to give" is shit.

If you're making 7 bucks an hour, how much social security do you think you pay per week? Do you really think that extra 20 bucks per week is going to set you up for retirement? Do you think that if they had that extra 20 dollars in the check per week, that they wouldn't use it to better feed, cloth, insure themselves?

Well, seeing as you are only entitled to recieve Welfare for 2-5 years now in your entire life, I guess that wouldn't work out too well would it. On top of having a lifetime limit, you have to subsidize it with work.

Then I guess we can expect full repayment of Social Security benefits from your father and mother (if they're old enough, or in the future), grandfather and grandmother then. I'll tell the GAO to be on the lookout. :lol:
People that invested everything they had in IT during the boom were stupid and probably should pay social security.I don't invest any of my money in my company. All of my 401k is spread out over various national and international funds. It's not my fault that the don't have time, are to lazy to pick up a book and learn, and can't put aside small amounts of money. I don't use a broker. If you think it's shit why then go look up Galveston County, Texas,Brazoria and Matagorda. They opted out of SS and have privately ran retirement funds. The money is still taken out of their paychecks but the government doesn't handle it and their return is much higher.

If your making $7 an hour you need to reevaluate your life and work on improving it.

gummo

8th July 2004, 19:46

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 06:38 PM
Then I guess we can expect full repayment of Social Security benefits from your father and mother (if they're old enough, or in the future), grandfather and grandmother then. I'll tell the GAO to be on the lookout. :lol:
What do my parents have to do with this? They have their own beliefs and they are not inline with mine. As far as my future goes I started putting money in 401k back when I was making $10 an hour in my early twenties. I am not counting on SS at all.

So sad that someone has so little self confidence that they can come on a web to argue about how others should take care of them cuz they can't do it themselves.

Capitalist Imperial

8th July 2004, 19:49

Sabocat

8th July 2004, 20:35

All of my 401k is spread out over various national and international funds

Another Gordon Gecko. What a player! :lol: :lol:

People that invested everything they had in IT during the boom were stupid and probably should pay social security.

Are you implying the bubble only affected IT companies? And to think I thought Enron was an energy company. How about Biotech? Is that IT?

What you're referring to in Galveston County is a priviitzation of Social Security. What it really does is make the investment houses wealthier, and cut liability to the employer. It does play very well into Reaganomics and trickle down though and we all got to see how well that worked. What happens when those people move, or become unemployed?

A Deal Privatization Can't Beat

by Dean Baker

The most common argument for privatizing Social Security is that workers would enjoy a higher rate of return on their money if they could invest it in the stock market. Privatizers argue that Social Security gives workers a low, or even negative, rate of return. They assert that the stock market, on the other hand, would give workers a 7 percent annual rate of return even after adjusting for the effect of inflation. These claims fundamentally misrepresent the facts by exaggeration privatization's return and discounting the return Americans receive from Social Security.

Privatizes, understate Social Security's return because they base their calculations exclusively on the retirement benefits that individual workers receive. They ignore the other aspects of the program, such as disability benefits and survivors' benefits for dependent children and spouses. Social Security is more than an investment vehicle. It is an insurance policy against disability, premature death and an impoverished old age after a lifetime of low earnings. Any insurance company that charged its customers, on average, a dollar for each dollar in benefits it paid out would quickly go out of business. In the real world, insurers actually charge customers approximately $1.18 for each dollar in benefits they pay out. Any fair comparison of Social Security to the private sector must include this premium in its calculations.

But Social Security is an insurance policy against something else: inflation. Its retirement payments take the form of a real valued annuity: a payment that continues as long as the worker (and/or spouse) lives, and is adjusted for inflation. It is difficult if not prohibitively expensive to buy in the private market an annuity that is protected against inflation, and workers typically pay premiums of 15 percent to 20 percent to purchase an annuity that is not indexed to the cost of living.

Link (http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_viewpoints_deansocsec)

If your making $7 an hour you need to reevaluate your life and work on improving it.

Yeah, because there are infinite resources for bettering yourself on a $7 an hour salary. Especially after all you "compassionate conservatives" eliminate all the public social programs and privatize everything.

So sad that someone has so little self confidence that they can come on a web to argue about how others should take care of them cuz they can't do it themselves.

Yeah, I'm looking for someone to take care of me. LOL. So are you saying that after you pay into the Social Security system your whole life, when you receive disbursements from it upon retirement, that it's charity, but yet if you put your money into a privatized form of Social Security and receive disbursements from that upon retirement that that isn't? :blink: You're really not that bright are you?

gummo

8th July 2004, 21:05

No, it's charity because people that make good money and pay more SS never get all of it back. Part of their SS payments goes to deadbeats that can't take care of themselves. If you put it in a privatized fund the money is still YOURS. It's called income redistribution. I don't like the government forcing me to give my money to other people. I can chose to give to charity but I shouldn't be forced to do it.

There are tons of resources for bettering your self if you have the drive.
It's not easy and it shouldn't be. My aunt dropped out of high school and became a friggin drug addict. She went back to school in her late 30's and now she is an ER Doctor making serious money.

Are you implying that the IT crash wasn't the main cause of the market adjustment we just went through?

Sabocat

8th July 2004, 21:29

No, it's charity because people that make good money and pay more SS never get all of it back. Part of their SS payments goes to deadbeats that can't take care of themselves.

The maximum you can pay into Social Security for one year is about $5500. It doesn't escalate infinitely with the more you make. :rolleyes:

I'm sure the cooks that cook food for you in restaurants, waitresses, janitors, general construction workers, farm help that pick the vegetables and raise the cattle that you eat, all appreciate being referred to by the likes of you as deadbeats. The sad part about it, is that their Social Security witholdings go to people like you.

I know that the people of the US are not heartless and self-serving.

You're right. Apparently it's just you.

My aunt dropped out of high school and became a friggin drug addict. She went back to school in her late 30's and now she is an ER Doctor making serious money.

I'm sure with the assistance of public & social programs which you would advocate getting rid of.

DaCuBaN

8th July 2004, 21:57

You are a small contingent, and don't reflect world opinion

In your own locality there is no strong anti-american feeling... yet half of your most vehemont supporters - the UK - strongly oppose the alliance between us. In fact most of Europe seems to hold the US in disdain. The middle east? Only Israel backs you...

'World Opinion' is a meaningless rhetoric of course, but if we do try to analyse it your statement does simply become false.

America is respected... much more than Cuba

America is feared much more - I guess this could be taken as a kind of respect.

If people want to pay into social security and have the government run their retirement plan then so be it. I would rather take the money I pay into Social Security and invest it in actually money making plans

You've missed the point entirely, and I'm not about to start defending the welfare state as I believe it horribly flawed anyway.

Welfare is based on the idea that we all pay in a little, and this is 'shared' out amongst us. It's a very simple idea, but because people are trained to look out for #1, there are a high incidence of fraudulent claims, and the system starts to fall down.

I think technocracy is the only way the US could succesfully apply socialism - not through some proven flawed welfare state.

fernando

8th July 2004, 22:03

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 8 2004, 07:49 PM
America is respected... much more than Cuba.

I see few people trying to row rafts from the USA to Cuba. On the other hand, Cuba to USA? Hundreds every day. What does that tell you?

Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone feels the same way that you do about the USA. You are a small contingent, and don't reflect world opinion.
And how many people in Nazi Germany resisted Hitler? How many people in the occupied lands? Holland nowadays is portraying itself as if they had resisted the Nazis vigilantly, but the resistance was no more than a few thousand men <_<

Not reflect world opinion? Is that why the US trains terrorists and para militairy juntas to take out left wing people back in the day? Is that why the US wants more influence in the Middle East...no the US knows they are not liked by the world because they and their Western European lapdogs are exploiting the Third World Nations, sure they like you if you pay them, but deep inside they almost all hate you for exploiting them. But ok the US would only listen to a pro US opinion...which is by a very small elite group of these countries

Daniel Karssenberg

8th July 2004, 22:26

And how many people in Nazi Germany resisted Hitler? How many people in the occupied lands? Holland nowadays is portraying itself as if they had resisted the Nazis vigilantly, but the resistance was no more than a few thousand men

1) Are you Dutch?
2) Do you know/knew ANYONE in your family or friends that was part of the resistance?
3) Do you have any data that this number was really a few thousand men?

If one or more of these 3 above are answered by no you shouldn't be judging this.

My grandfather was brought to concentration camp by Nazis, now what did my grandmother had to do? Resist against this arresst and shoot one of the Nazis? What do you mean by resistance, when my grandfather was cought, my grandmother still "resisted" the way of Nazi thinking.

DaCuBaN

8th July 2004, 22:34

Yes, it's pretty irrelevant if someones pointing a gun at your face. You do what you are told, or you die. Nazi Germany is, I'm afraid, a poor analogy.

fernando

8th July 2004, 22:40

Originally posted by Daniel [email protected] 8 2004, 10:26 PM
And how many people in Nazi Germany resisted Hitler? How many people in the occupied lands? Holland nowadays is portraying itself as if they had resisted the Nazis vigilantly, but the resistance was no more than a few thousand men

1) Are you Dutch?
2) Do you know/knew ANYONE in your family or friends that was part of the resistance?
3) Do you have any data that this number was really a few thousand men?

If one or more of these 3 above are answered by no you shouldn't be judging this.

My grandfather was brought to concentration camp by Nazis, now what did my grandmother had to do? Resist against this arresst and shoot one of the Nazis? What do you mean by resistance, when my grandfather was cought, my grandmother still "resisted" the way of Nazi thinking.
1)Im Dutch
2)I dont know anyone from the resistance, since they would probably all be dead by now
3)History classes! Our teacher showed us a video about it, which we had to learn for an exam (which is made by our government)

Just look at how many people in Holland joined the SS, look at how passive most of our resistance was, same goes for Germany, look how easily we gave away many of the Jews to the Nazis, and how guilty we felt (and still do) about it after the war.

What I mean by resistance is, fighting the nazi regime, directly and indirectly, helping the resistance, maybe even joining the resistance.

Daniel Karssenberg

8th July 2004, 22:54

1)Im Dutch

Okay, I am too.

2)I dont know anyone from the resistance, since they would probably all be dead by now

Yes both my grandmother and grandfather are dead, you’re right the adults are dead. Though my other grandmother –father still live and my grandmother still remembers a lot about the resistance in WWII.

3) Just look at how many people in Holland joined the SS,

Look how many people in modern France became Christian when they could choose between the bible or the axe of the executer. Look how many children become Christian if they’re taught out from the bible ever since they can talk.

look at how passive most of our resistance was, same goes for Germany,

Man, most people in this region. They fought back heavily, by force, by giving extra food. Resistance was major, but what can you do against an army which is superior in man-power, in weapons and equipment?

look how easily we gave away many of the Jews to the Nazis,

That was because we had everyone registered, al lot of communists are registered here, if they’re all gone tomorrow are you going to blame Che-lives? We did what we could, but against a superior army… Many passports were burnt to save the Jews but we just didn’t have enough hands, at least not strong enough hands to help them all.

and how guilty we felt (and still do) about it after the war.

We shouldn’t be, neither should the Germans.

What I mean by resistance is, fighting the nazi regime, directly and indirectly, helping the resistance, maybe even joining the resistance.

In some villages, practically all were in the resistance. This could be is so many ways, keeping back food for people from the cities, allowing rebels to shelter overnight, giving Jews a job at farmers so they would not be noticed. Where do you live if I may be so rude to ask?

fernando

8th July 2004, 22:59

I live in Rotterdam, you? if I may ask? :P

Daniel Karssenberg

8th July 2004, 23:03

Drenthe... 15 kilometres from the German border. Know this area of Germany pretty well. I live in a huge village :D (about 750 people) close to this world-city Emmen (whose community habits about 110.000 people :D). Yeah.. you could quite say I am from the country side :D. Though I do not speak dialect (can undestand, of course :D)

fernando

8th July 2004, 23:05

haha cool, my aunt used to live in Drenten...I think she still does, but I havent spoken to her in ages, she kinda freaked me out when she gave me this book about Tantric Sex <_< oh yah she talks to trees

Daniel Karssenberg

8th July 2004, 23:13

We have a lot of trees... but talking to them. I mean that is kind of,,, well silly. Anyway.. Rotterdam was bombed I think this may result into fear of Nazis and less eagerness to join resistance. In the remote villages here 50 years ago, they had less control.

Capitalist Imperial

9th July 2004, 00:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 10:03 PM
And how many people in Nazi Germany resisted Hitler? How many people in the occupied lands? Holland nowadays is portraying itself as if they had resisted the Nazis vigilantly, but the resistance was no more than a few thousand men
So you concede that Cuba is a brutal. oppresive regime.

Y2A

9th July 2004, 00:13

"Resistance" is not always active fighting. It could be giving jews fake passports and a place to hide. You act as if they could actually do anything. The German army was superior to there forces, that's it, end of story. Most resistance fighter's fought bravely, even those of the Netherlands.

Daniel Karssenberg

9th July 2004, 00:26

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 9 2004, 12:07 AM
So you concede that Cuba is a brutal. oppresive regime.
I'd say mentally corrupted. Even tough we both disagree we Communism, I for one believe the idea was nice for the Cubans at the given time and situation. Fidel's dream, Cuba's dream is just corrupted. Why? Because Fidel Castro is a human.

fernando

9th July 2004, 13:24

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 9 2004, 12:07 AM
So you concede that Cuba is a brutal. oppresive regime.
No I dont, I say that we dont resist Yankee Imperialism, eventhough we all hate it, but what can our people do, when above us a nation who has enough nuclear weapons to destroy several times and enough terrorists to kill us all sucks dry our lands.

The US is scared shit of countries like Cuba, Truman Doctrine: "socialism spreads" That is why they so hardly support the elite opposition in Venezuela, that is why they took out the democratically elected leader of Chile (Allende) and supported Pinochet there.

gummo

9th July 2004, 15:27

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 09:29 PM

The maximum you can pay into Social Security for one year is about $5500. It doesn't escalate infinitely with the more you make. :rolleyes:

I'm sure the cooks that cook food for you in restaurants, waitresses, janitors, general construction workers, farm help that pick the vegetables and raise the cattle that you eat, all appreciate being referred to by the likes of you as deadbeats. The sad part about it, is that their Social Security witholdings go to people like you.

You're right. Apparently it's just you.

I'm sure with the assistance of public & social programs which you would advocate getting rid of.
The point I am trying to make is that people would benefit from privatized retirement plans. Social Security will fail in the future and I am not going to rely on it for source of income.

Cooks and Janitors have just as any opportunities, although they may have to try harder, than the rest of us. There are night classes you can take and get Government grants or loans. Maybe if people like yourself would help them get into school instead of making excuses for them they would do better.

I am not interested in getting rid of all public and social plans. I am sick of people like yourself demonizing the US when we do have a lot of social plans. We do spend a lot of money trying to help the poor. We do send money to poor countries to try and help them. But jerkoffs like yourself ignore all of the good things we do and just focus on the negative. Fuck you, I am sick of having %30 of each of my paycheck going to various government programs, some good and some bad, only to have pussies like yourself call me selfish. I feel pretty confident that I will contribute more money to this country, this year, than you will.

Daniel Karssenberg

9th July 2004, 15:35

Fernando, does have a point there. American interference in the politics of foreign nations did scare many nations to develop the way the want. Just look at the Netherlands: we need very expensive security systems to protect our harbours, if we dont, the US will stop importing our goods. The problem is that US harbours are leaking and are barely protected at all (a friend from the US told me this, and no this friend was no communist or an US-hater).
But then again, how much didn't Cuba interfere in illegal military actions against civilians in Africa? How much didn't it trade with the former USSR which barely accepted the basic human rights, surely the US' conservative policy is a bad one. But Cuba is by any means not innocent. At least the governments of these nations aren't.

fernando

9th July 2004, 15:48

Arfica? I assume you talk about the Revolution in Congo Che tried to help. It didnt really work out, and still Africa gets sucked out my the Western nations

Cooks and Janitors have just as any opportunities, although they may have to try harder, than the rest of us. There are night classes you can take and get Government grants or loans. Maybe if people like yourself would help them get into school instead of making excuses for them they would do better.
They dont have as many opportunities, study in the US costs a whole lot of money they have ot pay themselves mostly, the rich have opportunity, the poor have almost none

Daniel Karssenberg

9th July 2004, 18:25

Not only Congo, it has been reported Cubans fought in many more countries in Africa. The Soviets "asked" them to, and they would arm them. So basically Cuban boys were fighting in Africa as mercenaries, and Fidel couldn't care less to send many of them to death just to keep up his relationship with the USSR. I can assure you these rebels were not friendly, and couldn't care less about killing an innocent or two to acquire some food.

fernando

9th July 2004, 18:34

where did you get this information?

gummo

9th July 2004, 19:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 03:48 PM
Arfica? I assume you talk about the Revolution in Congo Che tried to help. It didnt really work out, and still Africa gets sucked out my the Western nations

They dont have as many opportunities, study in the US costs a whole lot of money they have ot pay themselves mostly, the rich have opportunity, the poor have almost none
My wife, before we were married, as a single mother of three recieved grants that paid not only all of her school cost but also extra to help for daycare and such. She also recieved low cost daycare from the state. There are opportunities in this country for those the try. Unfortunately a lot of those cooks would rather burn one and talk about how much they hate the man. Fuck'em.

fernando

9th July 2004, 19:36

Arent these things different in each State of the US?

Daniel Karssenberg

9th July 2004, 22:09

Fernando, I've sent you a PM.

fernando

10th July 2004, 08:48

thank you for the Link :)

Daniel Karssenberg

10th July 2004, 12:28

Back on-topic:
According to the starter of this topic Cuba is the best place to live... one question:

As a Classic Liberal, can I just hit the streets and protest the government?
Can I fly to the US or any other country any time I want?

Commie Girl

14th July 2004, 15:07

No, as a classic Liberal you would not be able to do what you want, but if we are comparing freedoms, etc., the citizens of the U$ are not as free as they wish, what with the Patriot Act and the Govt. telling you where you can travel, how much you can spend when there and restricting how much money you can send relatives!

Freedom is defined in many ways.

fernando

14th July 2004, 16:35

Hey you cant say whatever you want in the US, just look what happened to that Sherman guy

Danton

15th July 2004, 08:18

Cuba is opening up, an unstoppable force has been set in motion. The last romantic days of idealism are upon usand the overwhelming tide of change engulfs the Island as I write.

Let us embrace it, no! Don't fight the swelling waves of freedom crashing against the walls of the Malecon.

Pretty young Habanera's wearing D&G sunglasses sell their honeyed bodies to greasy, fat, pale old European liberals - the new gangsterism. The ingenuity of these people, fifty, sixty year old engines purr... These are world leaders in every field, necessity an all that.

The old man is something of a joke to the new breed on the street, a benevolent nay spiritual leader, a figurehead, a throwback? Colonial buildings collapse around me, quiant old Habana vieja, decaying beautifully, rotting so romantically.

Tourism is the boom and everyone wants a slice, from the white clad witches to the spandex Jinetera's, greed pervades. Is there such a thing as compassionate economics? Never mind, keep sipping the rum and remember the good old bands like Habana sextet or Los Van Van.............................