Palestinians : The new Guerilla freedom fighters .

[Derar]

Palestinian Ambush Kills 13 Israeli Soldiers
Tue Apr 9,12:04 PM ET

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Palestinian militants killed 13 Israeli reserve soldiers in an ambush in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank on Tuesday, the heaviest single blow to the Israeli army in 18 months of bloodshed.


Israeli military commentators said the Palestinian fighters blew up a booby-trapped building which collapsed on one group of soldiers, after which gunmen opened fire on a second army unit that came to their rescue.

"An army patrol by reserve soldiers was ambushed during operations in the Jenin refugee camp. The ambush included the use of explosive devices detonated against them and gunfire from nearby rooftops," the army said in a statement.

"Thirteen soldiers were killed," it said, adding that seven other soldiers were wounded, one of them critically.

The toll was the highest in a single attack against the Middle East's strongest army since a Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation started in September 2000.

The deaths occurred on Tuesday morning but were not disclosed until the families of the soldiers were notified.

The Jenin refugee camp, in the north of the West Bank, has been the site of the fiercest fighting in a 12-day-old Israeli offensive against Palestinian cities in the West Bank which the government says is intended to root out suicide bombers.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon , who has been under U.S. pressure to call off the offensive, said the operation would continue following the death of the soldiers.

FIGHTING REPORTED OVER

Ron Ben-Yishai, military affairs correspondent for Israeli Channel One television who is regularly briefed by the army, said the fighting in the camp had since come to an end.

He said the attack took place after soldiers entered one of the houses in the refugee camp "and a ring of several explosives were detonated all at once, which killed several soldiers."

In the course of a week of battles, Israeli infantry soldiers had advanced through the crowded camp house by house, backed up by frequent helicopter strikes, residents said.

They said Israeli bulldozers had smashed their way through buildings to clear a path for tanks to pass through the camp's narrow alleys where fighting has raged.

Witnesses said dozens of corpses of Palestinians killed in the fighting remained in the streets and only a few ambulances had managed to enter the camp to evacuate the wounded.

Israeli military commentators have referred to the Jenin camp as the "cradle of the Intifada," or uprising, a stronghold for Palestinian militants behind a series of suicide bombings against civilians in Israel.

Some of the camp's residents managed to flee during the fighting, while those who remained struggled to find food and water during the siege.

[GuerillaTactics]

God willing it will be 18,000 tomarrow

[Guest]

ah, moral relativism, grand aint it.

[Reuben]

great stuff!

[Guest]

18,000? you're sick man... check your head.

[Guest]

Even better than that: 200 Palestinians whacked and counting. Yeeha!!

[deimos]

guest?

[Derar]

today more than 10 israeli soldiers were killed and lots of others were wounded when a palestinian blew himself up in a bus filled with israeli soldeirs .....

VICTORY TO THE INTIFADA ..... THE NEW GUERILLA WARFARE .

[deimos]

@ derar: everytime when i hear that an israeli soldier/terorist was shot i celebrate a party in my mind. But the people in the bus where innocent civilians!Maybe some freedom activists where killed in this bus!

[Derar]

nah , they were all soldiers........ i saw the pictures .

though israel says that only half were soldiers , which is bullshit

[9mm Rebel]

Great news... got any links to pics or anymore articles?

[Maaja]

Death is always sad but some deaths are better than others!:)

[revolutionary]

killing civilians is bad!
kill LOTS of soldiers, they get paid for dying.

[Fires of History]

The Israelis are the terrorists, the ones who make a mockery of human life, degrade people's rights, and murder civilians...all with amerikkkan guns, and in the name of defending a 'holy' state, HA!!!

Down With Israel,
Trance

[Xvall]

As much as I dissaprove of the Israeli occupation. I would have rather heard that the fighters destroyed the leader of these attacks on refugee camps and palestinian civlilians, rather than killing the 'grunts', and allowing the some of the Israeli leaders to have an excuse to expand their campaign of genocide.

- Drake Dracoli

[Guest]

you celebrate death? you celebrate destruction? you call israel a mockery of human rights? LISTEN TO YOURSELVES. the majority of these posts are absolutely sick and wrong.

[El Che]

What they need is guerrila tactics, they need to atack the army, get organised work together to fight ocupation targeting they isreali military forces in whatever way they can. Leave the civilians alone its bad press and it gives the enemy a pretext to continue to avoid the real issues. Like the ilegality of the Isreali state.

[Guest]

you guys are in a dream world. WAKE UP.

[Fires of History]

"Guest 207..."

You say the majority of these posts are sick and wrong, yet you have yet to say WHY!!!

We don't celebrate death here. We do not celebrate destruction here. We celebrate the oppressed striking back at the oppressors! Do you know nothing about the situation in Israel!?!?!?!?!?!?! THANK YOU FOR YOU CNN/STATE PROPAGANDA OPINION WITHOUT SAYING WHY!!!

You say we live in a dream world. Well, there was a time when those who thought blacks should have equal rights, even those who thought planes flying in the air, was impossible, just crazy ideas of those living in a dream world. WAKE UP YOURSELF GUEST!!!

Thank you for sharing your comfortable amerikkkan opinion. Thank you for sharing your limited mind!

[BOZG]

I agree with militant action by Palestine against the zionist oppressors but the death of any person, military or civilian should never be celebrated. As that guest said, you cannot criticise Israel's human rights record and then go on and say that you find the death of people good. As long as the Palestinian people are oppressed I will agree with the Intifada but I will never see death as something good.

[El Che]

Its not a matter of celebrating, its a matter of war. This is resisntence against foriegn invasion and ocupation, military targets are perfectly legitimate.

[Guest]

As Salaamu Aleikum, comrades and brothers!

Che is probably the most popular non-arab symbol in Palestine, when I was there a couple of weeks ago I saw posters, t-shirts, wallets, just about anything you could think of adorned with his face and immortal words. The PFLP has done much to keep his memory alive in the territories.

The Palestinian people will NEVER give up, they will use any method available to them to fight the Zionist oppressors.
It is the Zionists that fortify their illegal military outposts in the occupied territories up to the point that they are not viable targets, you get shot for approaching them. All that is left is to take the fight to their civilians, just like they did when they massacred Palestinians in the pre-1948 terrorist campaign waged by the jews.

Let us read our history and remember who is oppressing whom and who used terrorism first. Let us also not lose sight of the fact that a human life is a human life, and civilians rights should be respected in any warfare, but it cannot be respected by one side and not the other without giving an unfair advantage to the morally ambivalent side.

Maha Salaama



Hasta la victoria siempre!

[Guest]

Let's cheer for the Palestianians who are murdering conscripted Israeli youth. This means will surely achieve their aims. Get real people, both sides are as bad as each other.

[Guest]

As a Latin American I sympathize with the Palestinian people. Palestinian people were and are today being pushed off their own land by a US-backed state which receives military aid through US taxpayer $$$.
How fair is it of Israel to push their weight around in shantytown refugee camps with people who have less than equal military capacity.
Israelis are privileged that they are the only place in the world where because of your religion you have a right to your own country. Ariel Sharon is a repugnant pig who thinks he can do whatever he wants while killing innocent children with US taxpaying money on his bloody hands.
I hope that the Palestinians have the endurance, pride, and never-ending resistance to take people off their land who do not belong there.
By the way, I also think Vicente Fox is a corrupt son of b----! Another US-backed pig!

[Guest]

holy shit!! you guys are pretty dumb!!

[munkey soup]

Holy Shit!! Guest 207 is a pussy who's too afraid to join and argue his point because he doesn't really have one!!

[Guest]

as a latin american I can't sympathize with the palestinians. Moreover why should a critical guest join, you'd just corral them into the socialism vs capitalism forum.

[RedCeltic]

This thread is an example of why the Guest Feature is soon to be turned off.

[Guest]

To Guest 160 and 207:
You are obviously a Fox supporting right winged hypocrite supporting the oppressors of Latin America!
I still believe that the Palestinian people should fight to the death to get rid of all Israeli foreign invaders. Why become clowns to the US-backed infidels like so many latina america perdida countries like Mexico, Nicaragua, Bolivia, etc..
Always fight for what is yours for only with the blood of the fighter will you overcome the enemy! Viva la revolucion and death to the US-backed right winged pig!

[Guest]

ok, i'm accused of being a pussy because i wont join. ok, that's logical. it doesn't fucking matter if i join or not. so what? does joining make me higher on the human species list? secondly, i'm too afraid to argue my point because i don't have one? not very logical either. i dont agree with the whole bit over there. it's none of our business. i'm a strong proponent of self-government and peace. i'm not exactly sure why i keep coming back to this site. guess i'm trying to get a grain of truth from you guys, haven't seen it yet. people are dying over there, crazy shit that nobody really understands but apparently some of you do. some of you "know it all" but i dont see the logic yet. shits hitting the fan over there big time. i dont think any system can really regulate the human race totally and absolutely fairly, even self government, not completely anyways. it's just all kinda fucked up. nobody really knows for sure,we think we do but we honestly don't. we like to think we do but we're only deceiving ourselves. i figure the best things that can work for us are peace and just minding our own business. just to be clear, i do not think socialism is self government, not even close (taxes, living wage, big government). anyhow, there's my 2 or 3 cents. i dont claim to know it all... just seeking like the rest of you... shits fucked up over there... celebrating death is wrong, that's fucked up... i think there can be some other positive outlet there. respects, nameless guest...

[CPK]

*yawn*



*zzz zzz zzz*

[Fires of History]

Fuck 'guests,' they post with a nameless anonimity that is their cowardly cover. They argue from the shadows. They make points from who-know-where because they will not join and be counted. They will not argue with a name and ACCOUNTABLILITY here.

But all that is soon to end, bye bye 'guests' :-)

*YAWN*

Does any 'guest' have anything more to say than 'you're fucking sick and wrong'!?!?!?!?

*YAWN*

[Guest]

Gee FoH you are so big and tough because you are a "member". Get your head out of your [email protected]#. Just because we haven't registered that doesn't make our opinion any less than yours. We don't preach the murder of innocent Israeli conscripted youths. You do because your hero Che Guevara another murderer had the same inhumane murdering technique. It is disgusting. You act all tough on an internet forum. Why don't you go out there and go in the line of fire??? Be a guerrilla and overthrow the Israeli government.
I wonder who is the "pussy" now?


Forever yours, a proud, unregistered "guest"

[Guest]

I have registered, I just forgot my password! Anyway, I agree with the creation and liberation of the Palestinian state. I don't agree with you on what you said about Che. Unless you were born in a country where the US always tried to rule you through mindless puppets would you understand what he stood for. Che was born in privilege. Through his travels in Latin America did he realize and see the corruption of governments being basically run by the USA. Look at today, Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia, all governments run through corruption. Colombia's ex-presidents were in on the drug cartels. Mexican police are linked to the death of a left-wing human rights lawyer.Please travel through Latin America and ask yourself why do these campesinos do not own the land they toil on, why is there such a drastic line of poor and rich? why are children of 5 years old carrying food and making tortillas to eat to survive? Che saw all this and wanted to change the lives of so many who did not have a voice. He wanted education for all, not for a privileged few. He wanted to give everyone the opportunities that the rich had. Before you insult Che as a murderer please read more about Latin American history and politics. When you have a solid understanding then please speak your mind.

-Latin American Che Supporter!!!

[Guest]

do i need a name to argue? my name is brian, i'm a strong proponent of self government. if one becomes a member how shall this make them more accountable? your logic brothers... just doesn't add up. the shit is hitting the fan over there in the mideast, it's getting worse.

[Xvall]

Conscriptable Youths? Oh no, can't kill those good old Conscripatble Youths who NEVER barge into refugee camps and shoot up civilians! I see that when an American soldier or Israeli Soldier is killed, it is remembered honorably, and there is no doubt some sort of huge service for their 'heroic deeds', but if an opposing civilian city is massacred, and dozens of children are killed, you seem to think it is 'progressive' in the war on 'Terrorism'.

- Drake Dracoli

[skrak]

altough a lot of people think im sick, but i agree with the palestinians , they fight for there freedom that they have lost since WWII, when the united fucking states of america kicked them of there land and gave it to the jews, wich a lot of money was given, the palestinians were poor compaired to the jews, they became outcasts. of i was a palestinians i would certainly fight back against there power altough i don't aprove there method of kamikaze attacks, i have symphaty for them. the holy land is theirs not from the jews.

[Dhul Fiqar]

As Salaamu Aleikum comrades, brothers and sister,

I posted on page 3 as a guest (probably the only guest that wasn't slamming you guys in this thread) and just wanted to show my good intentions by registering. Point well taken about the poultry-feces like nature of using the anonymity of a guest login.

I just wanted to say that I was pleasantly surprised at this community's stance on the whole Palestinian issue and hope to become a regular here in the future. The fact that I'm a socialist and living in the PRC doesn't detract from my enthusiasm either.

Any way, see you guys around, Hasta La Victoria Siempre!

--- G. Raven

[Guest]

You dumb asses are all anonymous whether you have a registered FAKE name or not! Call me Joe if you want. Who gives a fuck? Internet nerds.

[Guest]

Quote: from Guest on 9:40 am on April 13, 2002
You dumb asses are all anonymous whether you have a registered FAKE name or not! Call me Joe if you want. Who gives a fuck? Internet nerds.


LOL

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Guest on 12:46 pm on April 12, 2002
Gee FoH you are so big and tough because you are a "member". Get your head out of your [email protected]#. Just because we haven't registered that doesn't make our opinion any less than yours. We don't preach the murder of innocent Israeli conscripted youths. You do because your hero Che Guevara another murderer had the same inhumane murdering technique. It is disgusting. You act all tough on an internet forum. Why don't you go out there and go in the line of fire??? Be a guerrilla and overthrow the Israeli government.
I wonder who is the "pussy" now?


Forever yours, a proud, unregistered "guest"


Like I have said, most of the 'guests' here have yet to say anything with content except "Che's a murderer" and "You guys are nerds" and "Who's the pussy now" and the like.

The point I was trying to make was that by coming in as a 'guest,' nobody here has any reason to listen to what you have to say. No reason! You haven't spent any time introducing yourself, letting your thoughts be known over time and over a broad range of topics, and given anybody here ANY reason to give a flying shit what you have to say.

Sure, I'm a member. But I don't think that makes me anything 'special' or 'cool.' I have simply spent a good bit of time here since I gratefully found this site in February, and because of that, it has raised my sense of accountability to this community. Because I have spent so much time here, I cannot simply drop in, say some stupid pointless shit, disrupt the community conversations, then leave as anonymously as I came. That is counterproductive to the community in my opinion, and that is what I meant about accountability.

The fact that you support Israel, in my opinion, shows not only your ignorance of the situation, but your defiance of the self-governance of an entire people. So, why would I care what you had to say about the situation!? Do you think I come here to listen to opinions based on amerikkkan comfort/laziness and CNN!?

But hopefully, 'guest' posting will be ended soon. And I will continue to use this thread as a great example of why such a decision would be beneficial to this great community.

Sure, the internet is anonymous, but those that join and make themselves known here are the one's lifting this community up, strengthening this community. 'Guests,' as such, have no place here because they are counterproductive to any sense of community.

You're the 'pussy' for dropping into a community that you are not a part of, as well as supporting the status quo through your lame assaults on pro-Palestinian opinions.

I think I know who is the bored internet nerd in this equation....

EDIT: I forgot:

DOWN WITH ISRAELI AGGRESSION!!!

POWER TO THE PALESTINIANS!!!

RAISE THE PALESTINIAN STATE!!!

And a big cheer for any success of Palestinian guerillas!

(Edited by Fires of History at 12:54 pm on April 13, 2002)

[Guest]

cut the bologna...

[Guest]

trust a communist like FoH to curb freedom of speech

[Dhul Fiqar]

Trust a chicken-shit "guest" to make a hit and run, one-sentence attack with no discernible argument ;)

-- G. Raven

[Guest]

ooohhhh, good reply dhul fiqar, first let me open with a qoute " i'd rather fight to spread some tolerance and unity, than buy into your natonalistic brainwashing, killing mothers fathers sisters brothers common human beings, not savages but people like you like me."-Justine Sane (anti-flag), second of all, i'm not very sure how long ago this was all i know that sometime in the past hebrews occupied the holy land (how else do you explain jesus being jewish) and they were a fairly oppressed people, and at some point in time, the all powerful islamic empire (who's power was comparable to the u.s. today) slaughtered the jews and sent the of them to try to live in the desert, now we see the flipside of it today, so those of you who think your so fucking holy for taking a side get the facts first, people who celebrate the death of other human beings should not be associated with communism, and regarding guests, people should be free to speak their minds, especially in a leftist site like this, and they shouldn't have to join a club just to speak their mind, as if defining people by class , ESPECIALLY IN A COMMUNIST WEBSITE!!! and to that guest that says communism curbs freedom of speech, GUESS WHAT ASSHOLE!! i'm a communist and i'm here lobbying for your freedom of speech, i'm giving everyone in this thread a much deserved cock-smacking, member or non-member, pro palestine or pro israel i don't give a fuck, they both kill with hate and with terror, they limit the freedom of human beings which is exactly what we are ALL fighting against.

[filimarxist]

by the way to the people who think the guy above me is another piece of shit guest, that was me, i just want to see the look on the member's faces when they realize that it was said by a member, by the way for those who think i'm some asshole right winger that's just here to *****, i've been here long before most of you kids even back in the days of the old community.

p.s. red-celtic rocks

[Derar]

U r a fucking idiot .......

in the past , jews where living with the muslims peacefully , specially in the andulus lands ( Spain ) ... until the crusaders came and masscred thousands of jews , and after the jewish ppl escaped to the muslim lands for protection .....
So next time before u ***** , get ur facts right ....

And u idiot , by supporting israel , u r supporting the killing of children and women and innocent civilians , as well as violation of human rights ...
So how can u accuse us of supporting Death !!

and ....... FOH thank u for the lovely posts ..... u rule man .

also before i leave ,

DEATH TO THE ISRAELI ARMY AND GOVERNMENT.

DEATH TO THE ISRAELI FACSISTS AND SUPPORTERS .

VIVE THE INTIFADA , VIVE PALESTINE .

[Anonymous]

Well said comrades, some of these guests need to get there facts right before they go supporting the israeli army, they are oppressors guests , get it into your head, you couldnt possibly support the israelis if your anybit normal, coz you guys are coming off as filthy facists and i know you guys really arent. I also do not support killing any innocents and do not agree with these suicide bombings.

[Dhul Fiqar]

I think our "guest" has been corrected, if he even meant it to begin with, I'm a little confused 'cause I don't know him.

However, I'd just like to make the additional point that Muslims did obviously NOT take Palestine from the Jews, this is High School stuff, they were a minority at the time Islam took root there, and were traditionally tolerated as "people of the book", since Judaism is remarkably similar and related to Islam.
And it's also a myth that Islam was mostly spread by the sword, a fantastically huge majority of the Muslims on this earth trace their people's religion back to merchants, travelers or sometimes simple geographical proximity to Islamic countries.

Whatever your intentions by the post, you stand quite thoroughly corrected.

--- G. Raven

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Guest on 6:16 am on April 14, 2002
trust a communist like FoH to curb freedom of speech


Uhm...you're always free to join. Did I say anything to the contrary? Or is that too complicated for you? You'll be gone soon 'guest.' Then you can join if you really want to talk with the community.

Until then, fuck you for being such a one-line wonder.

[filimarxist]

hey derar, ur the one who's an idiot, i never said that i was on the side of israel so ur arguement is obviously useless against me , my arguement that islam was once tall and mighty and the hebrews were the little people in their land is just to point out that back in time things were the other way around, i for one am not an advocate for israel nor palestine, i'm an advocate for peace, "We must also say that it is not only in relations in which sovereign states are involved that the concept of peaceful co-existence must be clearly defined. As Marxists we have maintained that peaceful co-existence among nations does not encompass co-existence between the exploiters and the exploited, the oppressor and the oppressed..." -che guevara, this means that peaceful co-existence is often obstructed by oppressive rulers and that it is actually in the hands of the common man, people like civilians killed by israeli guns and palestinian suicide bombers, blue-collar soldiers killed in the field of battle are cheered on by people in this thread, unbeknownst to them that these soldiers are working class men, indoctrinated by oppressive leaders like sharon and arafat since their birth, che was a man who sided with peace and the masses, unlike the people here who side with oppressive leaders and spew out their terrorist rhetoric

[filimarxist]

"At the same time, there must clearly be established the obligation of all states to respect the present frontiers of other states and to refrain from indulging in any aggression, even with conventional weapons." -che at the u.n.

[Derar]

i have a question , will u be happy when u hear about a death of a nazi soldier ? i think the answer would be yes !

so there is no difference between the israeli soldier , and the nazi soldier ........ both of them r racists .... both of them r blood thirsty .......
These soldiers that take out children with their riffles every other day , by their own choice , not with orders , coz they r free to do in palestine whatever they want , kill , rape , murder , destroy ! coz they r in control ........ coz they have a gun , and the palestinian kids dont , but when a 17 year old kid steps out with a gun , the whole army shakes up , they send tanks , helicopters , tens of troops to hunt for him , and bomb the whole city for days , just to make sure he is dead ..... coz they r cowards ...... and the boy is a lion that smells fear coming out of these soldiers ...... and i shall remind some ppl here that in january this year ...... a single 21 years old fighter , with a normal riffle took out 9 soldiers , and wounded 5 ....... until they filled him with bullets , that it was so hard to recognise who he was ...

With every freedom fighter that is a father they kill , 5 of his sons become the father , and even more powerful ....... u dont know how it feels when u see a kid standing with a rock infront of a tank ........ making the soldier inside the tank shit his pants from fear ....
And fear shall kill them all , And then glory will be to the ppl that lived under humiliation and accupation for more than 65 years ......

That day will be a gift to mankind.

[Reuben]

derar, many jews did flea european persection to go to the Arab world and the church in the crusades that you mentioned has always attacked jews on a scale that they were not attacked in the arab world.

Amongst jews the period of the moorish occupation in spain is known as the golden age as it was the only time jews in europe had to be allowed to flourish.

Having said that, film marxist is right in that for a long time there was institutional and legal discrimination against jews throughout the arab world and lybia in 1945 there were pogroms. This existed prior to Israel. Although it was not nearly as bad as what happened in Europe.

[chupacabra]

I am not anti-Jew to first say. As a matter of fact I have met many good Jewish people who also believe it is about time that Palestine was a state and that what Sharon is doing is basically going to amount to "0". I believe that each side has to be willing to give up something. In Latin America, we are a majority of Catholics but we have co-existed with Muslims, Jews, black, white, brown, yellow.
I think the unfortunate part of this war is that so many innocent people are displaced, dead or in despair.
But I also believe that 1.) There should be no more building of Jewish settlements in the West Bank 2.) US taxpayer money should not go to Israel (Being a minority I have seen all too well the poverty, shantytowns in this own country) Kids who turn to selling dope because they see it as the only way out of the poorness.

[GuerillaTactics]

Quote: from BornOfZapatasGuns on 11:34 am on April 11, 2002
I agree with militant action by Palestine against the zionist oppressors but the death of any person, military or civilian should never be celebrated. As that guest said, you cannot criticise Israel's human rights record and then go on and say
that you find the death of people good. As long as the Palestinian people are oppressed I will agree with the Intifada but I will never see death as something good.


I beg to differ......... it seems the only way the israelis learn is when their children( let me clarify.... the IDF) are killed the same way they kill the palestinians....... let them feel the same mourning the the mothers and fathers of the Palestinian children feel when their children are taken from this world

(Edited by GuerillaTactics at 10:24 pm on April 15, 2002)

[Fires of History]

Jewish State = Aryan State

Isn't it ironic, dontcha think?

POWER TO PALESTINIAN GUERILLAS!!!

[filimarxist]

Quote: from Derar on 2:56 am on April 15, 2002
i have a question , will u be happy when u hear about a death of a nazi soldier ? i think the answer would be yes !



holy shit someone out there is thinking for me i feel so lucky, really derar you're a shining symbol to freedom doing the thinking for others and all that shit, no i won't be happy at the death of a nazi soldier because regardless of what he believes in he is still a human being, if israeli soldiers are the same as nazi soldiers then i don't know why arabs hate jews, cuz some arabs i know loved hitler and the nazis for the holocaust, much like how you are enjoying hearing of the death of israeli soldiers, yeah and FOH " jewish state=aryan state, isn't it ironic don't you think" who's the one-line wonder now? i'm totally against the invasion of israel into palestinian territory and i have nothing against kids defiantly standing against israeli tanks (kinda reminescent of the student protester blocking tanks back in tiananmen) and it's exactly that type of defiance that i support, nonviolence

[RedCeltic]

OK... this isn't exactly on topic... (I think I've stated my opinon on is somewere else however)...

filimarxist Good to see ya 'round dear... pop in for a drink, and a chat I bet...well good to see you again anyway. oh heck... drinking on monday isn't a good tiing is it? :)

(Edited by RedCeltic at 12:54 am on April 16, 2002)

[Reuben]

Regarding the idea jewish state=aryan state.

can i explain that the idea of a jewish state was not raccial purity. it reflected the movement in the twentieth century for national liberation for ethnic minorities. of course when israel itself was formed what happened went beyond that, in the same way that serbs were ethnically cleansed in kosovo.

I am not talking about israel. i am just saying that The idea that jews should have a homeland was more similar to and as legitimate, in theory at least, as the idea that any other people should have a homeland. I am not talking specifically about Israel as that had to be based on the disposeession of another people

What I am saying is that the idea of a jewish state merely an equivalent to those demanding a bangladeshi state or armenian state etc.

I would not support because I do not support the nation state.

Also why is it, when israel reflects elements of many different societies, I only ever see israel is nazi germany nrather than israel = south africa...



P.S. i m not a zionist and never will be.

(Edited by Reuben at 7:49 am on April 16, 2002)

[Pepe]

All Palestinians have the right and duty to fight for the freedom of their land.
Israel it seems to be enjoying all of the situation, making fun of the International Community.
It seems that the 3 billion Dollars coming from U.S.A every year are a good support to keep the conflict. Israel in my eyes are trying in a Criminal way to take palestianians from the map, they try to break the morality of Palestinian people.
They forget the strengh of people when it comes to the point that you must free your own land. Palestina will fight until the end and I can just be happy to see that they don't give up.

Long Live Palestina and it's people.

Pepe

[Reuben]

Great post pepe welcome to the community.

Victory to the intifada

[Fires of History]

Reuben,

I appreciate your response, well said.

But, I still see the similarity. Whether calling back to your Aryan roots and ancestors to fuel a national spirit and create the perfect state, or calling on the religious sentimentality and racial roots of your people to create the perfect state, it's all based on self-righteous, racial-centric thinking. It's all based on the notion that, "We are special, we will have our own state."

And the fact that Israel is so steeped and based in religion is just laughable. Now, there's a 'modern' state for you. Not that any state based on such enlightened thinking had much of a chance for peace anyway.