CHE AND SOVIET?

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
I don't know why this site has a RUssian
symbol?????? Che was by no means
pro Soviet.....they were forced to be friendly
with the Russians as many other new born
governments are in order to battle US imperialism.....
Russia is not much better than America...
Im sure Che would have supported Osama
Ben Laden during the Afgan-Russia war......

[Jesus Sanchez]

Because the Hammer & Sickle has been universally adopted by Communists. :hammer:

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected] 27 2004, 04:47 AM
peace....
I don't know why this site has a RUssian
symbol?????? Che was by no means
pro Soviet.....they were forced to be friendly
with the Russians as many other new born
governments are in order to battle US imperialism.....
Russia is not much better than America...
Im sure Che would have supported Osama
Ben Laden during the Afgan-Russia war......
The hammer and Sickle could represent the USSR prior to 1953, and Che supported the USSR in that period. He opposed the USSR for much of his life however I am not sure he would have supported Bin Laden in Afhanistan since Bin Laden was backed by the Americans. Most people on this site are not pro revisionist Soviet Union.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
yes Che would have defineatly supported Bin Laden....
Whitey(the soviets) was trying to take over Afganistan....
Che always talked about how Indian peasants were
getting their land stolen by whitey.....
i have read Che's speeches and he does label this
as white supremacy....i think alot of people are taking
CHe's good name to further their own derelict cause....
shame....

[elijahcraig]

peace...
yes Che would have defineatly supported Bin Laden....

No.


Whitey(the soviets) was trying to take over Afganistan....

No.


Che always talked about how Indian peasants were
getting their land stolen by whitey.....

Stop saying "whitey."

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I can't believe someone is suggesting Che would support Osama bin Laden!

Firstly, bin Laden used America to further his cause thus he would've been subject to American hegemony and dollar diplomacy had he achieved anything.

Second, Che would not support vile acts of terrorism against so many innocent people of different sorts. Also, bin Laden keeps saying his goals are religious. Che would not have supported religious war.

And, I agree, stop saying whitey. You sound drunk.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
first of all....9/11 was masterminded by rogue
elements in the US government and ZIONISTS....
but you won't learn that until 30 years from now....
In reality Osama Ben Laden was only involved
in Military strikes such as when the US army got
their asses kicked in Somalia......He was never
involved in killing civilians...but you go on
believing the US imperialists(as you say it)
media reports.....
secondly......Afganistan which is a country
of non whites was invaded by Russia......
Now if you ever READ or STUDY Che he constantly
talked about how he was trying to DEFEND INDIAN
PEASANTS from US imperialism....and you will
also find that CHE used the term white supremist
to describe US imperialism......
and yes CHE would have defineatly supported
the Mujahadeen or anybody else who's country
was invaded by Imperialist powers...whoever they may be
CHE stood up for oppressed people and i'm sure he is
rolling in his grave if he ever read the nonsence you people
say....you should be ashamed of yourself.....
as i stated earlier.....until recently the Soviets and
the USA(both controlled by WHITEY) were the two major
superpowers...and yes if the Soviet Union invades your
country then you have no choice except go to the USA
to get weapons.....and if the USA invades your country
FIDEL and them had no choice to run the SOVIET WHITE
DEVILS to get weapons....thats the reality......
and i will say WHITEY all day....even white cubans
and white afgans use the term "whitey"....
anyways...as i said you all should be ashamed of yourself....
keep the word CHE out of your mouth.....or else catch
Che's curse......

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Now you sound even more drunk.

First of all, using the term "whitey" to generalise a mass of people into your definition for "whitey" is something which would disgust most people, including Che.

Osama bin Laden has claimed responsibility for the9/11 attacks and many attacks since. Now unless your telling me the US Government is still in cahoots with him and are "drugging" him into saying these things, then I'm taking that as evidence that he had involvement. The 9/11 and further attacks killed many civilians, not just American but also the people he was claiming to defend; something which would disgust Che Guevara.

He has also created a cult of personality in the Middle East; something which disgusted Che Guevara about leaders.

"whoever they may be
CHE stood up for oppressed people..."

Nobody is denying that. Just that he would not support Osama bin Laden like you idiotically claim.

[Saint-Just]

Afganistan which is a country
of non whites was invaded by Russia......

You're wrong. The socialist government in Afghanistan requested help from the USSR to put down a CIA backed coup undertaken by Islamic fundamentalists.

[Louis Pio]

Here's a really good article on the subject of Afghanistan:
Afghanistan: Why the Russian bureaucracy invaded (http://www.marxist.com/Asia/tgrant_on_afghan1980.html)

In my oppinion it is quite strange that some left groups supported Islamic fundamentalism and CIA on that matter.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
Osama denied involvement.....of course the CIA
doctored some videos to make it seem like he
admitted involvement......
and to the other person....i am well aware that
there was a socialist government in Afganistan
before the Taliban and it was actually not that
bad.....i will give respect to Socialist governments
when they deserve it..CUBA...NORTH VIETNAM.....
these were good grassroots movements aimed
at destroying the pale skinned invaders....
regardless....when the soviets invaded Afganistan
they were raping women and killing civilians.....
it was just another example of whitey trying
to oppress colored people....
and yes Che would have loved me saying whitey....
if you read his speeches he clearly states that
white supremacy is his enemy.......
if you read his biography's he clearly was trying
to free BROWN SKINNED indian peasants
from white oppressors.......
but you believe whatever you want.....
but its funny you believe what the US imperialist
media says about Osama.....

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
oh and while we are at it to the Mao fan.....
tell me what did Red CHina do to the
Buddist Monks in tibet?????????
i don't believe the US imperialist media
as you all do....so you tell me the story......
tee hee

[Guerrilla22]

[QUOTE]Che was by no means
pro Soviet.....

At one time he was.

[refuse_resist]

Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected] 27 2004, 04:47 AM
peace....
I don't know why this site has a RUssian
symbol??????
The hammer and sickle is a Communist symbol, the Russians weren't the only ones who used it.


peace...
yes Che would have defineatly supported Bin Laden....
Whitey(the soviets) was trying to take over Afganistan....
Che always talked about how Indian peasants were
getting their land stolen by whitey.....
i have read Che's speeches and he does label this
as white supremacy....i think alot of people are taking
CHe's good name to further their own derelict cause....
shame....

Hmmmmm, someone sure doesn't know what they're talking about.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
yeah someone sure doesn't know
what they are talking about....

[BOZG]

Hail Red Army in Afghanistan!

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Why do you keep saying peace at the start of your posts? It doesn't fit into a sentance.

And write properly, not as if you're writing a poem with ......'s everywhere. It's annoying for people who read it.

In Bolivia, Che was fighting to free the peasants and the proletariat from the dollar diplomcacy of America. The peasants happened to be "brown skinned Indians", but are you suggesting Che didn't want to free white people? And if you aren't suggesting that, which you surely are not, do you think he'd appreciate those white folk being labelled "whitey" like you are? No, he wouldn't. And nor do straight thinking people on this site. It's a racist, generalising term, so don't use it.

As your clearly on first name terms with this man you seem to think is a hero, "Osama" did not deny involvement. You're suggesting the tapes on Al-Jazeera were fiddled with? If you do think that, then good luck in decyphering everything you've ever read and seen on TV before and since then. He has claimed responsibility (on Al-Jazeera tapes) for 9/11, and of course the US Embassy bombing. If you think anyone like Che Guevara would support these attacks, then you need to read a book about Che Guevara. Or maybe "whitey's" media will have fucked with that too and Che actually fully subscribed to Islamic Fundamentalism and brutal terrorism.

And, my oh so wise friend, if we believe what "whitey's" media says about your friend "Osama", then what is the truth about him? Because you know it of course. He is a peace loving, law abiding man? No. He is a good spokesperson and representative for the opresssed? No. He is a freedom fighter? No.

Osama bin Laden comes from a rich family and had a rich business I believe before the Afghan war. He is a multi-millionaire if my book about him by a very good writer of Arab history is correct. And, before you think about it, the writer is Arab, not "whitey". Bin Laden sends young men and women, who he has manipulated with absurd lies about their religion, to do things which they believe are in the name of God, good and peace.

What he's also doing is giving Islam a bad name and, thus, around one billion people a bad stigma upon their heads. Oh yes, a representative of the opressed indeed.

He teaches these people that what they are doing will please God. But is suicide not a mortal sin in Islam? Yes, it is. Therefore, in the Qu'ran, he who commits suicide, thus not being thankful for the life God has given them, is disrespecting God and shall burn in "hell".

Now I'm not a religious person, but I mention that so you see that he is a manipulative man who desires power only. He also desires the brutal murder of anyone who doesn't believe in what he does: Islamic Fundamentals. Fundamentals which 96% of all Muslims say should not be adhered to due to the progression of Islam in the modern world.

Do not claim for one second that a man like Osama bin Laden is fighting for the opressed people of this Earth. He fights for nobody but himself. His own gain and his own vendettas.

He is killing the very people you and he claim he is standing up for.

Now if you believe that is the way to fight for the oppressed then that is your own problem. But I can assure you that no straight thinking person believes in that, and one of them is Che Guevara. Killing those you claim to be fighting for is not forgivable. Not in Che Guevara's book, not in mine and I doubt in many other peoples.

If it is in yours, you belong in the mountains with your friend "Osama".

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
your rebuttle is so weak...you have already said all that in the last post....
come up with something new or i will ignore you skunk....
"British imperialism used every means within its reach to place power in the hands of the white minority, who, at the present time, unlawfully holds it"--CHE G.
i don't have much time and thats the only example i could find
where Che specifically called out WHITEY as the enemy....
but i have read every biography possible of CHe and he uses
the term white supremacy quite a few times.....
US imperialism is white supremacy....everyone knows this....
if you cannot admit it then you are a lying son of a *****....
so let me address your weak weak weak weak grafted rebuttle....
PEACE is a universal greeting......its like saying hello......you dummy....
I know white Afgans white CUbans white Puerto Ricans white
Dominicans who all say WHITEY...HONKEY...WHITE DEVIL.....
BLUE EYED DEVIL....etc etc....and this is white people using this word....
enlightened WHITE people call devilish white people WHITEY......
furthermore i have read Che's biography as i said and he is quoted
as using the word "Gringo" and i asked my MEXICAN friend today
what gringo means and he said WHITE BOY.......moving on...
and the next four paragraphs u wrote i ALREADY addressed
but i will type it one more time for you skunk boy.....
OSAMA NEVER EVER KILLED CIVILIANS....HE ONLY WAS INVOLVED
IN MILITARY STRIKES SUCH AS SOMALIA.....OSAMA WAS SET UP
BY WHITEY'S MEDIA JUST LIKE LEE HARVEY OSWALD EXCEPT
OSWALD WAS AN ACTUAL CIA AGENT....OSAMA IS A MILITANT
MUSLIM WHO DEFENDED BROWN SKINNED PEOPLE FROM WHITE
SKINNED INVADERS SUCH AS THE SOVIET UNION......
if i don't reply to your weak weak rebuttle just know its
because i am not near a computer....

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by Che Guevara+--> (Che Guevara)British imperialism used every means within its reach to place power in the hands of the white minority, who, at the present time, unlawfully holds it[/b]

He didn't single out WHITEY (God, I hate that word) as the enemy. He just noted, correctly, that whites controlled the British empire.


Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected]
furthermore i have read Che's biography as i said and he is quoted
as using the word "Gringo" and i asked my MEXICAN friend today
what gringo means and he said WHITE BOY

Actually, gringo usually isn't said with any malice: it's like calling an American a Yankee. The term is used almost everywhere in Latin America, it's nothing special.


Micah EL Layl
OSAMA NEVER EVER KILLED CIVILIANS....HE ONLY WAS INVOLVED
IN MILITARY STRIKES SUCH AS SOMALIA.....OSAMA WAS SET UP
BY WHITEY'S MEDIA JUST LIKE LEE HARVEY OSWALD EXCEPT
OSWALD WAS AN ACTUAL CIA AGENT....OSAMA IS A MILITANT
MUSLIM WHO DEFENDED BROWN SKINNED PEOPLE FROM WHITE
SKINNED INVADERS SUCH AS THE SOVIET UNION......

And Micah's credibility flies out the window.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace.....
good comeback skunk.....

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I didn't deny Che pointed out that white imperialism and white supremicy existed. I was saying that them being white was not what Che was fighting against.

You make Che's fight sound as if it was a race war when it clearly was not. The imperialists happened to be white. That's all.

Yes, whites controlled American Imperialism.
Yes, whites controlled the British Empire.

But it was not the "white" from those sentances that Che was fighting against. It was the last two words of those two sentances.

As for your pal Osama. Even the most anti-American skeptics would not argue such nonsense like you; probably because they can think intelligently and rationally.

I repeated what I said about him because I would like you to proove the evidence that he has been involved in attacks on civilians wrong. Oh, and don't forget that the evidence is actually himself admitting to being involved.

You describe your friend Osama as:

A MILITANT
MUSLIM WHO DEFENDED BROWN SKINNED PEOPLE FROM WHITE
SKINNED INVADERS SUCH AS THE SOVIET UNION......

Do "Militant Muslims" just defend brown skinned people? If so, he deserves no credibility whatsoever as he calls himself Muslim yet only defends brown skinned people eventhough millions upon millions of white people are Islamic.

Obviously, I knew bin Laden has no credibility anyway, but I was just putting your argument into a rational perspective.

Nobody was denying Che's use of the word "gringo" or that fact that he denounces white imperialism and colonialism. But the way you were throwing the word "whitey" around was sugesting a raicst element to your argument. You muist also remember Che was speaking in the 50's and 60's. This is 2004, attitudes have changed. It was fine to use the word "nigger" then, but I don't think you'd go slinging that around would you?

[elijahcraig]

9/11 was masterminded by rogue
elements in the US government and ZIONISTS....
but you won't learn that until 30 years from now....
In reality Osama Ben Laden was only involved
in Military strikes such as when the US army got
their asses kicked in Somalia......He was never
involved in killing civilians...but you go on
believing the US imperialists(as you say it)
media reports.....

The real question is…do you have any proof of this?


secondly......Afganistan which is a country
of non whites was invaded by Russia......
Now if you ever READ or STUDY Che he constantly
talked about how he was trying to DEFEND INDIAN
PEASANTS from US imperialism....and you will
also find that CHE used the term white supremist
to describe US imperialism......

The USSR did not invade Afghanistan unprovoked. The US had a massive campaign there.

And there is a large muslim population in the USSR.


and yes CHE would have defineatly supported
the Mujahadeen or anybody else who's country
was invaded by Imperialist powers...

But the US supported the Moujahdeen and opposed democratic socialism which was building there.


as i stated earlier.....until recently the Soviets and
the USA(both controlled by WHITEY)

Go shoot yourself you little *****.


tell me what did Red CHina do to the
Buddist Monks in tibet?????????

Put them in the ground where they belong.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Apart from the last point, I must say:

exactly.

Whereas we have the best proof possible that bin Laden was involved in civilian attacks (a confession), you, my friend, have nothing except a blind desire to sound radical.

Again, my point about bin Laden fighting against white Muslims has been backed up by elijahcraig. So, Micah, is Osama fighting for Muslims or brown skinned people? You suggest both, and that is clearly not the case. Infact, it is neither as he has killed innocent members of both groups.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
well to socialism or muerte...those last 2 post
was peace.....but i still think you need
to think about Osama a little more......
they called Che a terrorist who killed
innocent civilians....i just wouldn't
believe all that but i guess i will have to
agree to disagree....
and to the one who says that
Buddist Monks belong in the ground?
.......ok....then you are an oppressor too.....

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Yes, it is true what you say about the Western media lying about even Che. But there are millions who know otherwise. Millions who share the same beliefs and values as Che.

People know that anything like that said about Che is just anti-communist propaganda. Let's face it, the left wing and previous Communist states often lie in their propaganda too. It's all about swaying people's attitudes slightly despite the fact that the majority of the people being told the lies know they are being told lies!

Quite a confusing point I know, but I think it gets the point across.

Further to that, and completing my point, we KNOW about bin Laden. We know what he and Al-Qaeda stands for and they are a blind, extremist minority who are NOT SUPPORTED BY THE PEOPLE THEY SAY THEY ARE DEFENDING.

That is the difference between propaganda about Che and what the media says about bin Laden. I'll admit this only; he has been turned into a devil like, mythical, anti-human person by the media when there have been many like him in the past and still living today who don't suffer the same treatment.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve that status, because he does. But others do also.

And, what I will say is that people in the West need to listen to what he is saying. People need to know why he and his disciples have resorted to this horrific means of protest. Because despite the fact that his methods are outrageously disgusting, his reasons are understandable to a point. Forget the abrasive Islamic Fundamentalism for a second and what do we have in his explanation?:

- Russian Federation .vs. Chechnya
- Zionist Israel/America .vs. Palestine
- American worldwide hegemony and brutality

These three things are the intelligent stuff to come amidst bin Laden's sacreligious preachings that he claims are religious.

We need to know why he does these things in order to stop them happening. Not the where, who, when and how; To use the recent words of Saddam Hussein, "That's all theatre"

[Wiesty]

ya
The hammer and sickel was the symbol of the U.S.S.R and all worldly communists
Che was more socolist but he still supported the communists in their fight against capitlism

this site is leftist so it focuses on socolism, communism, anarchy, alagarchy etc.

[Hiero]

Micah EL Layl nobody likes you, your talking crap and you are twisting your idol Che Guavara to fit your ideology.

[Wiesty]

ahahaha
lol

so harsh

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
people here do like me....
all i did was set the warm milk in the glass...
and the snakes came out the grass......
and a few of you snakes popped up.....
my original point was that Che did eventually
split with the Soviets....so why use a Soviet
Symbol......this past week i have re-read
Che's biographies and he did clearly split with them.....

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected] 10 2004, 02:17 PM
peace....
people here do like me....
all i did was set the warm milk in the glass...
and the snakes came out the grass......
and a few of you snakes popped up.....
my original point was that Che did eventually
split with the Soviets....so why use a Soviet
Symbol......this past week i have re-read
Che's biographies and he did clearly split with them.....
Yeah snakes right. The hammer and sickle represent the workers. The sicle was a common tool of the farm in the 1800's and fare beforehand. The hammer was a common tool that the industrial worker used in early 1900's and beofre hand. So the represent the workers. Get it now.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

The Hammer and Sickle is universally recognised at the symbol of Communism.

I don't think you should read too much into it being the logo on this site as "Russian". Communist parties the world over use the Hammer and Sickle as their symbol.

Nobody denies that Che, as you say, "split" with the Soviets. Not that I', sure there was anything to really split up.

He indirectly denounced the Soviet attitude and their imperialistic ways in his speech, I believe, in Algeria.

The reason people are so vehemently criticising you is because you are stupidly drawing parrallels between Che and Osama bin Laden.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
i don't want to repeat everything i just said...
let my past posts speak for themselves....

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

How strange.

There was me repeating myself because you repeated yourself anyway.

It seems as though you are now saying that because you're argument has expired.

The sign that the title of this thread will soon leave the first page.

[Wiesty]

you guys didnt know that? why are we even discussing it, it so obious. its like not knowing what the 50 stars on americas flag mean

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
well.....
i didn't start repeating myself until
yaw psuedo-revolutionaries repeated yourself.....
but i can reply to this thread forever....
and i virtually made you do a back flip....
you swore Che wasn't fighting white supremacy
but then on your post at the begginning of page
two you basically admitted that britan and the US
are white supremist governments....
its just too dam easy....good try though....
its cute how you try to battle me.....

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected] 10 2004, 02:17 PM
peace....
people here do like me....
all i did was set the warm milk in the glass...
and the snakes came out the grass......
and a few of you snakes popped up.....
my original point was that Che did eventually
split with the Soviets....so why use a Soviet
Symbol......this past week i have re-read
Che's biographies and he did clearly split with them.....
Yes, Che did eventually split with the Soviets. However, so did the Chinese, but they never removed the hammer and sickle from their party flag. Che never split with the ideas of Lenin and that of the USSR up until 1953.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
well the flag of CHina has five stars i believe...
so to YOU mister Chairman Mao since you
have been pretty civilized.....i will just direct this
question your way.....and i ask this with no
intention to disrespect you but....
Tell me about (Mao's)China's relationship with
Tibet and what exactly happened there....
i have a friend who is from Tibet and i asked
him about it....he told me that Mao was a good
person but he said that it was CHina's soldiers
who were the ones who did wrong...

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

You really have confused yourself haven't you.

First, dishing out labels such as "pseudo-revolutionary" to people makes you seem a right fool. Especially when the person(s) you are directing it never claimed to be "revolutionaries" of any kind.

Second, nobody said what Che was fighting wasn't white supremecy. We were just wondering why the fuck you kept using that stupid word "whitey". Che was fighting American Imperialism and has a resentment for British Colonialism. Yes, these were essentially white controlled powers, but that is incidental. Che would've been fighting against them if they were as black as the night. It was the nature, not the colour, of these systems he fought against.

And stop trying to use wit when you clearly don't have the vocabulary or language skills to do so. It gets embarrassing.

[Abajo con el imperialismo]

starting all your posts with peace makes you look like a 6 year old not trying to offend you but I am honest.
I dont think che would not agree in going into a religius war.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Micah EL [email protected] 15 2004, 01:08 AM
peace...
well the flag of CHina has five stars i believe...
so to YOU mister Chairman Mao since you
have been pretty civilized.....i will just direct this
question your way.....and i ask this with no
intention to disrespect you but....
Tell me about (Mao's)China's relationship with
Tibet and what exactly happened there....
i have a friend who is from Tibet and i asked
him about it....he told me that Mao was a good
person but he said that it was CHina's soldiers
who were the ones who did wrong...
China's flag has five stars. But the Communist Party in China has always had its own flag, a five pointed star with the hammer and sickle in the centre of it.

I am sure Chinese soldiers did some wrong in Tibet. However, they also did a lot of good. Tibet was previously ruled by oppressive feudal lords such as the Dalai Lama. They used slavery and brutality to govern Tibet. The Chinese got rid of this which was very good for Tibet. They respected Tibetan culture, the langauge and other elements of the culture to some extent. However, Buddhism in Tibet, which was part of the feudal society was destroyed. Monks were forced to denounce the religion whilst monstries and scriptures were destroyed.