The Socialist Worker Party

[Frederick_Engles]

Hi all,
I recently joined the SWP. Does this make me less of a communist, or is it up to me to say what I am?
Thanks

[Kez]

*puts head into his hands*

Engels will be turning in his graves if he knew what you were doing....

Comrade,

*Do you think the USSR was the same as the USA? Or do you think it was a deformed workers state (ie its gains should be defended, buts its faults critisized)?

*Do you believe in participating in the workers parties and their organisations (unions) or in a secterian party?

*Do you believe in a class independence, or working with bourgeoise politics?

[T_SP]

I would have to say, not such a good idea! I have a link to a lengthy article that is well worth a read, it basically covers the differences between the SWP and the SP ( my party) and it may make you re-consider your position.

a comrade of mine said this in regards to the differences:



I would say that while we agree on the need for socialism, their methods (SWP)
piss people off rather than win them to socialism. They are both
sectarian (ie put the interests of their party before the interests of
the working class/movement) and opportunist (hide their socialist
policies in an attempt to get support or elected)

More recently there is the issue of political opportunism-

Eg 1. "Unite Against Fascism" which they play a leading role in for
example which is a campaign so broad it includes not only the
parliamentary labour party but also right wing tories such as Teddy
Taylor.

This means that it has no political programme with which to fight the
BNP, merely to say they are "Nazis". The problem is that to undercut BNP
support you need to address the reasons they are getting it. i.e. the
anger over underfunded services, low pay, poor housing etc. In order to
counter the BNP's arguments you have to put forward an alternative
solution to those issues, ie a socialist programme. Being in a campaign
that includes the very people responsible for making these conditions
worse stops you from doing it.

This doesn't mean we don't join UAF demos or rallies, or don't support
the maximum possible unity in action against the BNP etc. Of course we
do. But we have to raise socialist ideas!

Eg 2. the need for a new mass workers party. The swp do not support that
call. As a small step towards a new workers party, we set up the
Socialist Alliance and supported it because it brought together
different groups of socialist in a structure that allowed us to co
operate on issues we agreed on, but didn't allow one group to dominate
or tell others what to do.

Unfortunately the SWP later on joined it, and turned it into a
centralised structure in which they called the shots and pissed a lot of
people (including us) off.

They then unceremoniously dumped it (having effectively destroyed it) to
form RESPECT. RESPECT is not a democratic organisation.They also dropped
socialist policies/arguing for socialism in order to get some muslim
organisations on board. So here we see both the opportunism and the
sectarianism!


Article on the SWP. (http://www.marxist.net/ireland/anti-swp/index.html)

Hope this helps mate if you want to visit our website and maybe reconsider your party visit here:Socialist Party Website (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk)

[Frederick_Engles]

*I think the USSR was a fine country, apart from the mass killings obviously, there was virtually no social inequality there

*For the unions!

*class independance all the way!

[Kez]

all your choices (which are correct) are against the SWP line, who believe the USSR was state capitalist (in that it shouldnt have been defended in 1992)

they believe they can build a new party from fuck all without unions and working inside Labour Party

and they believe its ok to work with bourgeoise and islamic fundamentalists and not keep class independence.

[T_SP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 05:29 PM
all your choices (which are correct) are against the SWP line, who believe the USSR was state capitalist (in that it shouldnt have been defended in 1992)

they believe they can build a new party from fuck all without unions and working inside Labour Party

and they believe its ok to work with bourgeoise and islamic fundamentalists and not keep class independence.
You are right, but I don't believe the Labour party is a good base for a new workers party which is what's required. The Labour party is the MOST openly Capitalist party ( other than Tory) at the moment and the quote from Blair himself " We are the party of big business" says this clearly.
Are you a Socialist Appeal member Kez or are you Scargills lot? I think the latter is most likely, it stands out a mile.

[BOZG]

He's a Grantite.

[Kez]

The former, comrade ;)

Let us not mince our words, the LP at the moment is more or less empty of the working class correct? Nobody is saying this is where the workers are currently active in now. Fuck no.

However, who do the workers turn to today? Nobody, Labour Voters either vote Labour, or dont vote "Labour Strikers". This is what ive found.

Lets look at the elections, respect pompously declared it would win 2 MEP's, the BNP declared 2-3 MEP's. They both got bollocks all. Why? Because these 2 parties are not the parties which the workers turn to in a time of crisis.

I believe, when the crisis does hit us (and it has already started to do so), we will see return of workers to Labour. This was the case while Callaghan was in power and he betrayed the workers, until Foot came in, that time, our and your lot were doing the correct thing, and when the workers were active in the LP, we (Militant) won 10,000 members, this is because we took the non-secterian approach and worked ALONGSIDE the workers.

Apart from this, it is difficult to ignore the obvious Trade Union links, who have 50% of the votes in the Party, as well as the grassroots members (who i hope you will agree, are on the majority, honest lefties, for example at my last branch meeting last night, a Labour comrade died and as his wish we sang "The Red Flag" at the branch, this is just an indication of how left the grassroots are).
You know as well as i do the Trade Unions are making a clear shift Left, in T&G and Amicus in particular.

On top of this, the CBI has left Labour, and so have the right wing press, the right wing in the Party are becoming smaller and smaller, and with less power and influence.

Anyway, there is a Labour Party thread we can discuss this about.

The Labour party is still a Left Party, and this means we should have supported it in the elections, against the Tories, the LD, the BNP and so on.

Ive always maintained good debates with CWI members, i hope we can do the same also.

fraternally,

PS im a youth member, so im quite offended at being with Scargills lot!! :P

[James]

They are very annoying. They STILL phone me! I've sent another email to them now, asking for them to remove me from their data base

[T_SP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 05:55 PM
They are very annoying. They STILL phone me! I've sent another email to them now, asking for them to remove me from their data base
Who James? SA or SP?

[T_SP]

Kez, I hope we will have some good exchanges, I have alot of respect for Ted Grant ( although not Rob Sewel) I have met a few of your ex-members who have joined us because, " you are going in the wrong direction" and " The Labour party cannot be reclaimed for the workers" were just two comments I heard.

[James]

SWP

[Kez]

well hombre, weve also had ex-SP comrades, some of whom have even given Taffe a lift to meetings, so... ;) 1-1

[T_SP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 06:07 PM
SWP
They'll hound you till your dead man! That is their only priority, recruit, recruit, recruit, fuck the workers just recruit!!! HA HA HA

[T_SP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 05:50 PM
He's a Grantite.
Ah a fellow member, where do you hail from BOZG's?? Is that name from the Rage song Calm like a bomb???

[Bazza]

I joined the SWP as a 14 year old way back in 1984. It was the SWP band the Redskins that first got me interested in politics. It took me a few years to realise my mistake and I left the SWP in the late 80's.
I still love the Redskins though and I recently released a Redskins tribute record featuring 5 tracks by my band and 4 American bands.

[Kez]

I was a SWP member a few years ago, it took me approximately 1 month to leave.

[toastedmonkey]

Grr

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 07:16 PM
Ah a fellow member, where do you hail from BOZG's?? Is that name from the Rage song Calm like a bomb???
I'm from Dublin. And yeah, you guessed right with the name, was listening to it at the time of registering. It's remained by online handle for everything, ever since.

[T_SP]

Walk thru the shanties and the cities domain same bodies very hungary but with different last names! I love that tune! One of my faves they put it in Charlies Angels 2 and the 2nd Matrix!

Anyhew! Anyone read the lengthy article? Any thoughts?

Hey BOZG, how's Joe Higgins and Clare Daly? They're fucking heros man!!

[Louis Pio]

I have met a few of your ex-members who have joined us because, " you are going in the wrong direction" and " The Labour party cannot be reclaimed for the workers" were just two comments I heard.

Hmm I have seen the opposite. Normally because you never corrected you analysis of "going from victory to victory" and that it would be "the red 90'ies".
We all know this never happened, and correcting mistakes is a cornerstone in political work.

On the SWP, if they behave anything like in Denmark I wouldn't join them. Just remember not to get disillusioned with politics if you get tired of SWP. I have seen it happening to many good people.

[Kez]

which schvitz moved this thread...

anyway, wheres that SP chap gone?or indeed anyone who wishes to defend the SWP

[socialistfuture]

I am a member of the New Zealand SWP (SWO).
I joined earlier this year. They were the first socialist group I saw taking part in the anti war marches that were going on. They had stalls and handed out leaflets.

I used to occasionally go to meetings and went to the national conference. There are some real great people in the organization over here. People who are commmited.

Most here dont support the labour party but the left is not strong enough to provide an alternative - its the same in Britian.

RESPECT was worth doing - it was never going to take labours place in one election - it was to provide a platform for a left wing alternative that slowly must build itself.

[socialistfuture]

as to the sectarian thing, some people are guilty of it. People love to belong to groups. I stay clear of it - ill talk with anyone. its the only way we can go forward - fighting together not each other

[Hiero]

When joining any group you should really anaylise the group. I joined resitince which is the youth wing of the Democratic Socialist Perspective or Party im not sure which one it is and it ist part of the Socialist Allience. Well after some thinking and my own political devoloping i deciede it wasnt for me. There oppurtinistic, pacifist and have a really crap plan of selling newspapers and protesting which wraps it up.

[chebol]

A ha ha ha.
Sorry, I just had to laugh, neonate. You just proved your own point.
You obviously didn't analyse anything very much.
Resistance, which is a socialist youth organisation that was founded during the anti-Vietnam War movement in Australia, is firstly, not a "youth wing" of anything. It gave rise to the Socialist Workers Party (of Australia- no connection to the British SWP), which later changed it's name to the Democratic Socialist Party (DSP). Resistance remained in a position of 'political support' (you might want to call this 'youth wing', but it's a misleading term) towards the DSP.
At their last National Congress (Dec. '03) the DSP decided to change it's name to the Democratic Socialist Perspective in accordance with it's aim of helping to create a Multi-tendency Socialist Party (ie, following the general principle of left regroupment). What is the name of this party they've been trying to create for the past 4 years? Well, at the moment it's called the Socialist Alliance, and the main force behind the regroupment process that gave rise to the Alliance was- guess who? The DSP!
Resistance has ceased it's formal affilliation with the DSP and has affilliated to the Socialist Alliance, but is not the "youth wing" because it is not the specific 'youth' organisation of the Alliance.

The DSP has a lot of critics, and a lot of friends. I'm not going into all of them, because it would take most of the week (ain't that always the story?).
The criticism about the paper? Well the DSP, apart from breaking from the Fourth International (as the SWP) and from a lot of "Trotskyist" (or should that be 'trotskyite'?) analysis, has something of a J. P. Cannon-ist heritage. But when your paper is the most popular political website in the country, and was ranked around 50,000th on the web a few months ago, I don't think the criticism here stands up to much. The paper, Green Left Weekly, is currently in the process of becoming the paper of the Socialist Alliance.

Pacifist and opportunist??? I'd like to know why you use these terms. (Care to elaborate?)
If by pacifist you mean we don't go around advocating immediate armed uprisings, or police bashing, sure, we're pacifists. But when it comes to the barricades, comrade, we'll be there. ;) (NOTE: caricature of 'revolutionary' violence = ?).
Opportunist? I suppose this ties in with pacifist. If we don't go about rhetorically 'smashing the state', but rather make use of the openings as they occur in politics- sure, opportunist. But we hang around in between the openings too, and not to take advantage of them when they arise would be stupid.

What's wrong with protesting?
:o
It's a good way of meeting people you don't agree with and having a bit of a chat.

Finally, the DSPerspective and Resistance both maintain very good relations with Cuba and Venezuela, as well as other movements and organisations around the world. :rolleyes:

Sorry to hear that you didn't like us and left. Would you care explain any of the reasons?

[chebol]

socialistfuture; I agree. That's why I joined the Socialist Alliance, and that's why I'm here, too. The tendency of the left, especially when it's small and isolated, is to strengthen the ideological and personal barriers between them and the rest of the population. Unfortunately, this tends to reinforce popular disenchantment with the left, and "justifies" the narrow mind-view of the smaller sects.
Of course, talking with people doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with them- that would kind of defeat the point. :blink:

[T_SP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 01:17 PM
which schvitz moved this thread...

anyway, wheres that SP chap gone?or indeed anyone who wishes to defend the SWP
Got thrown cause the thread was moved! P.S if you knew your Labour history, you would know I would never 'stick up ' for the f**king swapies!!!
Where's the SWP chap gone?? Fredrick engles the guy who started this? Maybe he left the SWP??!?!?!?

[socialistfuture]

i think the other good thing about socialist worker (desides the literature and regular mettings/events) is the network it is international and well set up in may countries. overhere in new zealand we sometimes have comrades come from britian or australia (or elsewhere) and people from here catch up with comrades when they go overseas. we gotta work together not against each other or were doomed to infighting forever

[Louis Pio]

network it is international and well set up in may countries.

SWP is not the only international socialist organisation in the world.

Actually there's quite alot, if we just look at the ones coming from the trotskyist tradition there's several. Most don't have many groups though.
http://www.broadleft.org/trotskyi.htm

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 04:44 PM
Hi all,
I recently joined the SWP. Does this make me less of a communist, or is it up to me to say what I am?
Thanks
Of course its up to you to decide what you are man. Dont be a sucka! :ph34r:

[Ian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 01:29 PM
The DSP has a lot of critics, and a lot of friends.
Friends- Freedom Socialist Party
Critics- the rest of the Australian Left

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 01:29 PM
A ha ha ha.
Sorry, I just had to laugh, neonate. You just proved your own point.
You obviously didn't analyse anything very much.
Resistance, which is a socialist youth organisation that was founded during the anti-Vietnam War movement in Australia, is firstly, not a "youth wing" of anything. It gave rise to the Socialist Workers Party (of Australia- no connection to the British SWP), which later changed it's name to the Democratic Socialist Party (DSP). Resistance remained in a position of 'political support' (you might want to call this 'youth wing', but it's a misleading term) towards the DSP.
At their last National Congress (Dec. '03) the DSP decided to change it's name to the Democratic Socialist Perspective in accordance with it's aim of helping to create a Multi-tendency Socialist Party (ie, following the general principle of left regroupment). What is the name of this party they've been trying to create for the past 4 years? Well, at the moment it's called the Socialist Alliance, and the main force behind the regroupment process that gave rise to the Alliance was- guess who? The DSP!
Resistance has ceased it's formal affilliation with the DSP and has affilliated to the Socialist Alliance, but is not the "youth wing" because it is not the specific 'youth' organisation of the Alliance.

The DSP has a lot of critics, and a lot of friends. I'm not going into all of them, because it would take most of the week (ain't that always the story?).
The criticism about the paper? Well the DSP, apart from breaking from the Fourth International (as the SWP) and from a lot of "Trotskyist" (or should that be 'trotskyite'?) analysis, has something of a J. P. Cannon-ist heritage. But when your paper is the most popular political website in the country, and was ranked around 50,000th on the web a few months ago, I don't think the criticism here stands up to much. The paper, Green Left Weekly, is currently in the process of becoming the paper of the Socialist Alliance.

Pacifist and opportunist??? I'd like to know why you use these terms. (Care to elaborate?)
If by pacifist you mean we don't go around advocating immediate armed uprisings, or police bashing, sure, we're pacifists. But when it comes to the barricades, comrade, we'll be there. ;) (NOTE: caricature of 'revolutionary' violence = ?).
Opportunist? I suppose this ties in with pacifist. If we don't go about rhetorically 'smashing the state', but rather make use of the openings as they occur in politics- sure, opportunist. But we hang around in between the openings too, and not to take advantage of them when they arise would be stupid.

What's wrong with protesting?
:o
It's a good way of meeting people you don't agree with and having a bit of a chat.

Finally, the DSPerspective and Resistance both maintain very good relations with Cuba and Venezuela, as well as other movements and organisations around the world. :rolleyes:

Sorry to hear that you didn't like us and left. Would you care explain any of the reasons?
None of that matters, what matters is what the workers think of your party. Last time i was in resistance they sold 4 papers on the weekend.

[chebol]

Ian- be nice. We've a few more friends than that. Anyway, it's not who *our friends* are, it's who is listening to us and working with us, like neonate says, in the working class. And on that level, the issue isn't the DSP, it's the Socialist Alliance.

I think it's indicative that we can work alongside the FSP, as well as less 'friendly' groups such as the ISO, Worker's Liberty and the WPIraq, and still have time to get an audience (and members) amongst workers and unions. There is naturally a long way to go, but that's what being a revolutionary is about- tireless dedication. Watch this space... :D

neonate, I know that there have been problems in Resistance from time to time, so I'm not attacking you, but I am curious to know what you ARE doing for 'the revolution' now, rather than just 'selling papers'? (By the way, how many of those 4 did you sell? :P )
I personally sold 24 last week, and that's with working full-time, and having meetings almost every night- and while selling a paper does not a revolution make, it's an indication of where people's minds are. It also provides an opportunity which much of the left seems to miss out on- talking to ordinary people about politics (shock! horror!).

Maybe you should come along to a Socialist Alliance meeting or event, and see what we're up to, if you're so sceptical. :)

[Ian]

What branch are you in chebol?

[T_SP]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 01:24 PM
Ian- be nice. We've a few more friends than that. Anyway, it's not who *our friends* are, it's who is listening to us and working with us, like neonate says, in the working class. And on that level, the issue isn't the DSP, it's the Socialist Alliance.

I think it's indicative that we can work alongside the FSP, as well as less 'friendly' groups such as the ISO, Worker's Liberty and the WPIraq, and still have time to get an audience (and members) amongst workers and unions. There is naturally a long way to go, but that's what being a revolutionary is about- tireless dedication. Watch this space... :D

neonate, I know that there have been problems in Resistance from time to time, so I'm not attacking you, but I am curious to know what you ARE doing for 'the revolution' now, rather than just 'selling papers'? (By the way, how many of those 4 did you sell? :P )
I personally sold 54 last week, and that's with working full-time, and having meetings almost every night- and while selling a paper does not a revolution make, it's an indication of where people's minds are. It also provides an opportunity which much of the left seems to miss out on- talking to ordinary people about politics (shock! horror!).

Maybe you should come along to a Socialist Alliance meeting or event, and see what we're up to, if you're so sceptical. :)
I think your head is in the right place, but your parties is not.
What is the Socialist programme of your party?

[chebol]

I'm in Sydney.

I also think my heads in the right place :rolleyes: - but what I just gave is largely where my 'party' stands as well.

[Ian]

Central branch? I probably wouldn't know you then.

[chebol]

Yup, Central.
Where are you located?

[Ian]

Parramatta, I think most of your members from there would be pissed at me however, as I just stopped going to their meetings, didn't explain it or anything.

Oh well who cares.

[Louis Pio]

Any of the SWP'ers wants to comment on this article? http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/535/swp.htm

It seems the RESPECT thing has drained the funds.

Anyway I find this quote quite revealing

“We are building a left reformist party. Yes. We are going to build a party that pulls these people together and it could look like Rifondazione ... I don’t know.” Referring to the Socialist Alliance, he said: “In 2002 it was the SWP and a couple of other Trots. Now it’s 2004 and we are the minority.”

[guerrillaradio]

Mandude.

So gimme a sec here while I paint you a picture:

I'm on my way to some demo (I forget which) and I call a few mates ("comrades", if you will) to see where they are/when they're getting there etc and they're all either incommunicado or bail on me. So I'm looking like heading to a demo alone. Now...shit, I'm not scared but I'm a pretty chatty person and I'd feel fucking lame heading up to that shizzle alone. However, some kindly lady on the train overhears my calls and invites me to spend the day with her. I'm touched. We talk for a while, I explain how I've always wanted to activise but never really had many opportunities, and how my knowledge of the UK left is pretty limited cos of my lack of experience and exposure. She in turn tells me stories about all the demos she's been on, from Seattle to Prague to J18 to whatever else. I'm impressed. She then spins me the traditional "Black Block anarchists are all undercover cops" line and I politely keep my mouth shut.

Anyway, we turn up to the demo and she bumps into some comrades of her own. About 20 of them. All armed with Socialist Workers, membership forms, and other merch. And all this shizzle about them recruiting whatever the cost is proved completely true by this tale. About 10 of them surround me, with membership forms and urge me to join. 10, seriously. I look across at the kindly woman, whose looking at me expectantly. I dunno, I'm not sure i'm really informed enouh to make a choice. No choice at all, they reply. We'll educate you, here, have a free copy of our newspaper. At this juncture I realise that they're actually barring my way from joining in the demo. There appears to be no way for me to escape this situation without signing up the left's answer to Jehovah's Witnesses.

However, I stood by them for a while. Why not?? They had a national profile and a regular newspaper. They always seemed very busy. And most of their literature was anti-American, anti-Blair, anti-something else. And of course, most of the left agrees on those issues, it's our different solutions that divide us. However, the more i learn, the more i read, the more I see, I realise that what they say about the SWP is correct.

Sides, I'm basically an anarchist now anyway.

[socialistfuture]

i live in New Zealand so i havent taken part in things with the British SWP or respect.

I think the socialist review is a real good magazine. sounds like there are some problems going down. if u look at photos of marches there are usually tonnes of socialist worker ones - they put in the time and effort. i think the sectarian thing goes way beyond SWP. all these parties trying to compet with each other - its sad.

[guerrillaradio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 11:15 PM
if u look at photos of marches there are usually tonnes of socialist worker ones - they put in the time and effort.
If you look at a photo of an English street you'll see a lot of English football shirts.

The fact that the SWP has the numbers and capabilities to overrun demo after demo after demo doesn't add to their benevolence.

[socialistfuture]

i know here we want socialism to beyond sects, there has been a new party here called the maori party - that was created in direct response to the government trying to put through legislation to confiscate native lanf rights on the foreshore. the amount osupport showed that so many are discontent with the so called labour party and the opposition.
what is your suggestion to the SWP organisation? do u think a broad front is good? one socialist party that can grow in size and take the left vote with the intention of democratically installing socialism? do u think that can ever work?