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The Sloth
20th June 2004, 15:56
Yesterday, I was driven back to the southern tip of New Jersey to visit a few of my friends, considering that I've been back in New York City for over a year now.

Anyway, so one of them was having a party (or, at least, some sort of social gathering)...mostly high school seniors that are graduating this month were attending. Needless to say, I was the youngest person there, which seems to happen wherever I go. In this past year, however, since I have been back in New York City, I've went through serious changes, especially my involvement in politics and intellectual and artistic pursuits. Of course, after some music and some eating, I got into a discussion about socialism and communism....

...wow!

I could not believe how thoroughly these students from A.P. and honors classes have been closed off to everything BUT capitalism! When I was giving facts, the responses were usually lukewarm rebuttals or totally irrelevant proclamations and ideas...the most common "criticism" of socialism was the "profit = incentive" argument. Of course, mentioning the fact that there are lazy bums in capitalism that get paid just as much as individuals that work twelve times as hard generated the response, "this does not happen under capitalism because the individuals will be fired!" Such a response is ignorant.

Of course, when I mentioned that much of Europe has been socialist for over fifty years already, this both generated surprise but, unfortunately, no change of mind. Someone actually said that the "dollar" is worth more than the "euro"! And, unsurprisingly, they constantly pointed to the "immense wealth of America" and attributed it to the "greatness of capitalism." When I informed them that 50% of NYC kids live in poverty, they said...."well, what about the kids in the suburbs, right here?" as if the fact that a bouregois elite cancels out the failings of capitalism in the cities of America! Is a lack of sympathy a product of capitalism, too?!

They also didn't grasp the fact that our wealth is generated at the expense of other nations, and, usually, entire continents. They seem to be misinformed of the fact that Africans are slaving away at gold mines while Americans are being brainwashed into spending all their money on impractical things. When I asked some of them whether they wanted to get rid of the Third World and at least bring about some form of equality, I asked them how the world can eliminate the existence of a Third World without adopting socialist reforms. In other words, how can you get rid of the Third World within the framework of capitalism? Unsurprisingly, my request to make a plan like this went unanswered.

Keep in mind that I was the lone liberal going against a huge number of devoted conservatives that never even attemped to study socialism and Marxism on their own. Their knowledge of the subject goes no further than the garbage in school textbooks and the media. I believe that, when arguing with conservatives, it is important to outnumber them because conservatives don't exactly like the concept of "logic" and "rationale." However, since I didn't have anyone but myself as a liberal, I had to go to it alone. There was a sense of ignorance of politics, and a naive sense of "the government tries to help everyone equally" kinda garbage. What especially frightened me is that the party was thrown by my friend, a black man that previously lived in some housing projects in South Carolina! And since his transfer to the bourgeois environment, it seems as if he forgot that not everyone has such a great life....or maybe he still remembers this, but still doesn't understand that "greater equality" cannot be reached through capitalism.
Everyone that preaches equality but refuses to connect exploitation with capitalism and equality with socialism is a hypocrite, and is illogical!

It was even worse when an immigrant from "communist" Vietnam told me, "yo, trust me, I lived under communism...it's not nice!" When I informed him that he was living under a fascist pig police state, he brushed it off because very few people actually wonder whether a government is really communist or merely holds the name but acts on fascist tendencies. Thus, what I said was foreign to everyone that heard it, and they effectively put it in the back of their minds. When I explained that the failures of "communism" can be attributed to the Leninist paradigm of "professional revolutionaries" and a vanguard party, I wasn't surprised when they refused to even discuss this issue because they were ignorant of anything and everything socialist.



But how do you change this? I almost gave up (haha, not really!!!!) trying to teach others the merits of socialism. I think we need something much more effective than simply discussions with other communists, hoping that an ignorant capitalist just happens to pass by and get interested. We need to hit them individually, one by one, so they could discard whatever bullshit has been given to them by the media and such and such. I was thinking about going door-to-door and establishing a select few relationships with people that I can interest completely...and if someone really gets dedicated, they can go about educating others as well, and those others can do the same, too.

I am happy to always say that there are quite a few closet socialists out there in high schools. The economics and government/law teacher in my school admitted to socialism, one of my history teachers did the same, and so did another history teacher (the latter putting up numerous fights before finally admitting to his socialist tendencies).

Does anyone have any real ideas for organizing? Because I realize that it is rare that anyone, in today's society, would ever just "get into" socialism by reading something because all of the propaganda they have swallowed would be working against them indefinitely. Although it has happened to me, and most of the people here, we are such a small fraction...and why werent we introduced to socialism earlier? Propaganda.

DaCuBaN
20th June 2004, 16:09
Propoganda: according to kez that'd be telling the truth :lol:

Simply 'converting' someone to a socialist doesn't actually have the desired effect... I'm beginning to think some people either have it in them or don't...

Still, the method you are using is the one I would advocate: you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Don't expect instant results - but I think that more of what you said may have sunk in than you think. The change is a gradual one... you don't wake up one morning and turn around to your spouse and declare 'Cripes! I've been a bastard my entire life!'

The idealist
20th June 2004, 16:38
You know. I think I knew a guy who did that once. ;)

dark fairy
20th June 2004, 16:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 04:09 PM

have the desired effect... either have it in them or don't...


I think you are right because seriously, some people have the desire of having everyone be equal, but won't give up the capitalistic way of life and way of living... i've come across a few of those people they would like communism but probably want to be a dictator and that is not communism

plain and simple you were eighter meant to be a commie or have commie thoughts or you just weren't build for that

The Sloth
20th June 2004, 21:54
So, does anyone have any ideas for types of organizing and effective ways of spreading propaganda?

redstar2000
21st June 2004, 01:38
Download a good picture of Che. Above or below the picture, in large print, put the words FUCK AUTHORITY!...at the bottom, put the che-lives url. Print out the result and take it to a jiffy printer; have a few hundred copies printed on heavy stock. (Colors should be red and black, of course.)

Put them up with a staple-gun near high schools or other locations where kids hang out...just a half-dozen per location. When you run out, print some more and go back and hit the same spots.

And when our new guests arrive, we'll see what happens then.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Nyder
21st June 2004, 02:02
I hate to break it to but the reason that the third world countries are poor is because of socialism.

synthesis
21st June 2004, 02:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 07:02 PM
I hate to break it to but the reason that the third world countries are poor is because of socialism.
I suppose this is true if you look at it in the libertarian sense that all governments which intervene in the economy are socialist. With that said, I don't see how you could argue that "capitalist bloc" politicians are any better for the Third World working classes than the "socialist bloc" politicians.

elijahcraig
21st June 2004, 08:04
"immense wealth of America"

This sounds like the phrase of a British history professor.


I hate to break it to but the reason that the third world countries are poor is because of socialism.

Why are you here?

fernando
21st June 2004, 12:52
I hate to break it to but the reason that the third world countries are poor is because of socialism.
And how is that? Cuba has a better health and education system than most Latin American countries, and they are not very capitalistic I think...

The idea of capitalism is "high profit with low costs" which means that Third World countries will be exploited by the richer nations, there is capitalism in many Third World countries, but I still dont see them getting richer <_<

cubist
21st June 2004, 17:40
FUCK AUTHORITY SIDE THE MAJORITY RAISED BY THE SYSTEM AND ITS TIME TO RISE AGAINST THEM,

WERE SICK OF YOUR TREASON, SICK OF YOUR LIES FUCK NO WE WON&#39;T LISTEN WERE GONNA OPEN YOUR EYES.

i am used to being the only socialist in my area i have a few sympthatisers who understand my concept but most are blind, its hard.

cormacobear
21st June 2004, 21:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 04:09 PM
you don&#39;t wake up one morning and turn around to your spouse and declare &#39;Cripes&#33; I&#39;ve been a bastard my entire life&#33;&#39;
I grew up in a small city there ewre poor but no homeless. One of my best friends was as far right on the spectrum as a person could be. He was an avid follower of Anton LeVey&#39;s fascist ideology.

He was a fomiddable debating opponent. At 18 years old having dropped out of high school, he still received a full scholarship in Music and advanced Mathmatics, t5o the U of B.C. in Vancouver. Due to it&#39;s moderate climate Vancouver has the most homeless of any Canadian city. Within six months of moving there he did an about face and said exactly that "Wow i&#39;ve been an asshole, i had never comprehended true poverty."

So don&#39;t give up hope it does happen. :D

fernando
21st June 2004, 21:34
He was an avid follower of Anton LeVey&#39;s fascist ideology.
Satanism isnt fascism <_< Fascism is a word that many people mis-use.

cormacobear
21st June 2004, 21:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:02 AM
I hate to break it to but the reason that the third world countries are poor is because of socialism.
So apperrently you don&#39;t think it has anything to do with the fact that 85% of third world business&#39;s and recources are under foreign ownership, and that for 2 hundred years third world recources have been exported at never more than 60% of market value. Nah couldn&#39;t have anything to do with that.

Red Stars idea was a great one (wow never thought i&#39;d say that)

Also while you&#39;re in University you need to make contact with as many of the countries left wing parties and encourage them to unite. Write letters putting preasure on union leaders and left wing academics like Chomsky to put their support behind a new U.S. labour party. And put preasure on people like these and social actvists in your own town to run for office. If there is ever going to be peacefull change in the U.S. it&#39;s going to have to come from a strong grass roots effort at forming a new powerfull left wing U.S. party.

fernando
21st June 2004, 21:39
You think this left wing party in the US will stand any chance against the democrats or republicans?

cormacobear
21st June 2004, 21:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 09:34 PM
Satanism isnt fascism <_< Fascism is a word that many people mis-use.
Anton Levey uses the term satanism, to condone what is word for word the most obvious description of a fascist Ideology.

Even if a powerfull voice for the left never comes to fruition at least you&#39;ll know you tried.

And yes with enough effort, the deplorable living and working conditions of the majority can be pointed out to the majority. I didn&#39;t say it would be easy, the key of course is to get large groups of people from around the country to start backing a single alternative. If you can tell loggers in the northwest that you already have the support of miners and steel workers from the east there more likely to beleive that they wouldn&#39;t be throwing away their vote.

In the last six years 3 conservative parties in Canada have united into one, and now it looks like they&#39;ll win the election. Not an easy task considering the Liberals have controled the gov&#39;t for 80% of the countries history

Saint-Just
21st June 2004, 22:28
I hate to break it to but the reason that the third world countries are poor is because of socialism.

This is entirely wrong. Neo-liberism only ever succeeds where enormous exploitation takes place. Even then it can fail. Neo-liberalism has succeeded in countries such as Japan, where a comparative advantage exists that is far superior to most other countries. In Africa it has not succeeded. In poorer Asian countries it has succeeded to a limited extent where CA is present.

However, your statement is quite ignorant of the economic successes in China and the USSR. Achievements that have exceeded even the British economic innovation and entreprenuership, that tool place under a capitalist system.

Where are those socialists that tell me we shouldn&#39;t execute people? Come and answer this bullshit.


yo, trust me, I lived under communism...it&#39;s not nice&#33;" When I informed him that he was living under a fascist pig police state, he brushed it off because very few people actually wonder whether a government is really communist or merely holds the name but acts on fascist tendencies.

Your friend possesses a bourgeois mentality. He was also likely part of the bourgeois class in Vietnam. Vietnam is a revisionist socialist state where a rich upper class exists, most people in Vietnam have a bourgeois mentality where they view capitalism as superior. Your friend may enjoy living in America, but Vietnam is a much poorer country historically and so incomparable.


In my area I don&#39;t know many socialist. But, the Juche Idea Study Group of England was formed in my city which is positive. There are masses of people capable of becoming socialists if they can realise a socialist consciousness, that is something difficult in all capitalist societies.

Raisa
22nd June 2004, 08:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 04:09 PM
Propoganda: according to kez that&#39;d be telling the truth :lol:

Simply &#39;converting&#39; someone to a socialist doesn&#39;t actually have the desired effect... I&#39;m beginning to think some people either have it in them or don&#39;t...

This is a thing i believe. ALot of people got it in them. Its just a matter of knowing what is and being familiar with it.