The next step in Israeli stupidity

[monkeydust]

In a renewed effort to end all their problems, specifically, transport of arms through underground tunnels to Palestinian militants, Israel have decided to build a giant moat along the Egypt-Gaza border. Yes...a moat. ;)

Admittedly it will be an impressive feat of engineering, maybe even more impressive than their 'wall'.

Personally, however, I believe it to be another step in the wrong direction, yet another idea designed to tackle their problems whilst ignoring the cause and, in the long term, exacerbating the issue.

Any other thoughts on this?

Link 1 (http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/WireFeed/WireFeed&c=WireFeed&cid=1087365772487)

link 2 (http://www.contumacy.org/bbs/index.pl?noframes;read=30882)

Link 3 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720121.stm)

[fuerzasocialista]

I always wanted to build a moat around my house :lol:

[Stapler]

Why don't they build death-camps like the fascists they are.

[Urban Rubble]

Why don't they build death-camps like the fascists they are.

Personally, I disagree with this moat idea and most other things the Israeli ruling class thinks up, but to call them fascists is idiotic. I suppose you're one of those "Israel are Nazis and Palestinians are angels" type kids. It isn't that black and white.

So how far along is this moat ? I mean, are they doing this like for sure ?

[Pawn Power]

the problems their are getting worse and worse. I really dont see any solutions. Except of course revolution and change to a communist society! :hammer:

[ParanoidHumanoid]

This is just another stupid ploy used by the media-to help trick all of the ignorant masses in the world into saying, "Man, look at what the Isrealis have done! First the wall and now a giant moat! Those Palestinian's must be really savage! ZIONISM FOREVER!"

[DaCuBaN]

They're building a WHAT?!?

Afriad that King George might come-a-wandering again?

DOWN WITH ZIONISM!

Nationalism and Racism are the scum of this earth, and 'zionism' is BOTH. This makes it the most despicable idea on the face of the planet.

YES - THAT'S RIGHT! WORSE THAN CAPITALISM!

Why don't we take an Objective look at Israel/Palesitine conflict (http://radar.ngcsu.edu/~jsommers/IPCONFLICT/Chronology.html)

It speaks volumes, and shows the Zionists to be the thoughtless swines that they are. The palestinians are no 'angels', but you must ask, who is the aggressor? Who started the problem?

It sure as hell wasn't the palestinians.

Now fuck off you intolerant prick before I force you to eat pig guts.

[life beyond life]

whoa! DaCuban ain't no joke! =D

and thanks for the link, i'll be sure to check that out. it's nice to see that people are truly beginning the call the Zionists out, as they should be.

and also, for the record, we can put the so called palestinian and israeli conflict into perspective by looking back to 1948 and seeing just who were the original peoples of that land, and who forcefully immigrated.

the palestinian people have a right to defend their land and ideology if necessary. and that goes for not only muslim natives, but christian and jewish as well. because that is one thing that the maintream news won't disclose-that there is a palestinian christian resistance movement there. it is unreported in the US press and under-reported in israeli press.

and also, as DaCuban pointed out, nationalism and racism aren't the way for palestinians to gain their liberation. therefore, organizations that only represent a nationalist cause aren't going to be successful. the palestinian resistance groups need to take this to an international platform, one that encompasses all of human suffering and not just the Arab reality...

[James]

But you must consider how the israelis feel. The wall has actually been a great success: they now feel safer. They claim tourism is returning to those areas protected.
Its not exactly in their interests to now demolish the wall and let more scuicide bombers to come through again.


The moat is following the same logic of the wall.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 02:01 AM
Why don't they build death-camps like the fascists they are.
Thats dumb... try again.

israel is not fascist, not nearly.

[h&s]

israel is not fascist, not nearly
Maybe that isn't true;
-None jewish citizens are not allowed to own or lease land in Israel
-None jewish citizens are made to have different coloured licence plates on their cars for easy identification.
-Israel refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war
-Sharon's coalition government includes a party Molodet: which advocates expelling all Palestinians from the occupied territories

Zionism is the idea that Palestine solely belongs to the Jews, and not the Palestinians. Zionists want all Palestinians removes from Palestine.
This is ETHNIC-CLEANSING, and only fascists do this.

[monkeydust]

Personally, I disagree with this moat idea and most other things the Israeli ruling class thinks up, but to call them fascists is idiotic. I suppose you're one of those "Israel are Nazis and Palestinians are angels" type kids. It isn't that black and white.


Couldn't agree more, I dislike Israel, but I feel that insults comparing them to Nazis are wholly undeserved.


So how far along is this moat ? I mean, are they doing this like for sure ?


They're currently looking at plans put forward by several architects, it's not yet a 100% certainty, though I wouldn't put it past them.

The moat's about as long as the border on the South West below.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40159000/gif/_40159221_gaza_egypt2_map203.gif

[JokingClown]

This is ETHNIC-CLEANSING, and only fascists do this.

That is ethnic cleansing, but their is a difference between deportation and genocide.

[Stapler]

The Isreali government have exhibited fascist behaviour for years, isn't their wall proof of this? Isn't deportation still fascist?

[Comrade BNS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 10:34 AM
But you must consider how the israelis feel. The wall has actually been a great success: they now feel safer. They claim tourism is returning to those areas protected.
Its not exactly in their interests to now demolish the wall and let more scuicide bombers to come through again.


The moat is following the same logic of the wall.
YOU FUCKER!!


"The Israeli's feel alot safer and tourism is returning to those areas".

Let's keep those filthy Palestinian terrorists out so big fat tourists from the U$ can come and spend their bucks in touristy places to help fund Israel's land grabs and arms stockpile, whilst they try and remove any chance of armed resistance from the palestinians.

Sorry but i thought this was supposed to bea leftist forum, not some pig's playground

Comrade BNS

[The Children of the Revolution]

Let's keep those filthy Palestinian terrorists out so big fat tourists from the U$ can come and spend their bucks in touristy places to help fund Israel's land grabs and arms stockpile, whilst they try and remove any chance of armed resistance from the palestinians.

Sorry but i thought this was supposed to bea leftist forum, not some pig's playground


Comrade BS, 'James' made it clear that he was explaining the Israeli point of view. He was right to do so - we must never adopt a "one-sided" view when looking at issues such as these. I despise the idea myself as I'm sure we all do; as I'm sure comrade 'James' does.

But... I can see the "logic" of the wall AND the moat. This DOESN'T mean I think it's a good plan - I feel quite passionately about the topic and I offer my support to the Palestinian cause. But, like it or not, "innocent" Israelis are suffering as well as innocent Palestinians. And the Israeli government is acting, in their opinion, to try and prevent further atrocities being committed. There are undoubtedly better options, in the long term... Yet as 'James' suggested, the wall is "working" (for the Israelis) at the moment. Why stop at a wall?

[Reuben]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 10:34 AM
But you must consider how the israelis feel. The wall has actually been a great success: they now feel safer. They claim tourism is returning to those areas protected.
Its not exactly in their interests to now demolish the wall and let more scuicide bombers to come through again.


The moat is following the same logic of the wall.
you know james the israelies and the palestininans might feel even saffer if the Israeli government accepted the Palesitinians demands which are in fact extremly moderate (its been over a decade since arafat went as far as recognising israel is pre 1948 palestine) and stopped perpetuating the consequences of ethnic cleansing by ending their racist immigration policy and letting the palestinian refugees back in.

[h&s]

But you must consider how the israelis feel. The wall has actually been a great success: they now feel safer. They claim tourism is returning to those areas protected.
Yes, they feel safer now those "palestinian scum" can't get to their fields and are now starving to death.

[James]

comrade BNS, i suggest reading lessons/glasses old boy.

Thank you children of the revolution

hammer and sickle;
The wall is to stop scuicide bombers. It stops them.
Remember i was talking from an israeli point of view.

My personal opinion is that everything should be done to stop both sides from committing violence. This includes scuicide bombers.


Reuben;

you know james the israelies and the palestininans might feel even saffer if the Israeli government accepted the Palesitinians demands which are in fact extremly moderate (its been over a decade since arafat went as far as recognising israel is pre 1948 palestine) and stopped perpetuating the consequences of ethnic cleansing by ending their racist immigration policy and letting the palestinian refugees back in.


Oh yes i agree completely - although personally i think alot will need the violence to stop first (to prevent the image of "terrorism works"), before they legislate on such a matter.

And of course i would also like us to all live like friends. And live happily.

I was just pointing out how it seems for many israelis. When one looks it at it from there point of view the moat does seem like common sense.

[Funky Monk]

What i want to know is, will they put crocadiles into the moat, seems rather pointless if they dont.

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 21 2004, 11:29 AM

Comrade BS, 'James' made it clear that he was explaining the Israeli point of view. He was right to do so - we must never adopt a "one-sided" view when looking at issues such as these. I despise the idea myself as I'm sure we all do; as I'm sure comrade 'James' does.

But... I can see the "logic" of the wall AND the moat. This DOESN'T mean I think it's a good plan - I feel quite passionately about the topic and I offer my support to the Palestinian cause. But, like it or not, "innocent" Israelis are suffering as well as innocent Palestinians. And the Israeli government is acting, in their opinion, to try and prevent further atrocities being committed. There are undoubtedly better options, in the long term... Yet as 'James' suggested, the wall is "working" (for the Israelis) at the moment. Why stop at a wall?
What the hell is an 'Israeli point of view'?

And what is the 'Palestinian cause'?

[Funky Monk]

An Israeli point of view is the presentation of facts in a certain way, emphasising some aspects of the debate whilst minimalising others. Perhaps most importantly it considers the situation as it affects Israelis and how the moat will change that.

Although, i do agree with the fact that such generalisations don't actually exist. Perhaps it is possible to define Israeli point of view as "what i would feel were i to put myself in the position of my idea of an Israeli".

[Stapler]

Originally posted by Funky [email protected] 21 2004, 03:36 PM
What i want to know is, will they put crocadiles into the moat, seems rather pointless if they dont.
Pirahnas.

[h&s]

What the hell is an 'Israeli point of view'?

And what is the 'Palestinian cause'?

The Israeli point of view is that they are the sole owners of Palestine, not the Palestinians.
The Palestinian cause is the right to return to the homes they were kicked out of in '48 (or whatever year it was)

[Reuben]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 22 2004, 09:12 AM
The Israeli point of view is that they are the sole owners of Palestine, not the Palestinians.
The Palestinian cause is the right to return to the homes they were kicked out of in '48 (or whatever year it was)
the point being made is that the israelies are not homogeneous - they do not all share the same views and attitudes. If one is to go to a site such as http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html you would see that it is completely inadequate to characterise the point of views of all israelies on the basis of that opinion.

[James]

I think generally speaking, the israeli's in that area are pleased that they no longer get bombed. Wouldn't you?
Of course i might be wrong - but i'm not an israeli. I don't live there. I don't get bombed. blah blah blah


Sorry for trying to be more open minded. I won't try it again.



Down with the nazi zionists!!! freedom for palestine!!!
We all happy now?

[Daymare17]

That's right, there's no such thing as an "Israeli point of view". To even use those words means exposing your Stalinist nationalist creds. I see no "Israelis and Palestinians", only workers and cappies and anyone who lays claim to the heritage of Marx must do likewise.

Without doubt the Israeli working class is the most reactionary in the world. But even this working class is infinitely more revolutionary than any bourgeoisie.

There is a difference between Arafat and his cronies and the average Palestinian. No matter your intentions, whenever you don't make this absolutely clear you become the cheerleaders of Hamas and Sharon.

[James]

lol, so i'm a stalinist now?
Simply because i think alot of israelis (or workers living in the previously stated "israeli" area, if you like) will be happy that the bombs have stopped.
If you were a worker being bombed, wouldn't you be happy if they stopped?

And that is a simple yes or no question.

Why am i being so "zionist"? Or "stalinist"?
Well, i'm not. I'm purely attempting to explain why many "workers" will approve of the wall, and the moat.



Whats wrong with the moat anyway?
I'm all for it, mainly because i support "moral force" over "physical force".

[h&s]

Is James Conservative, Zionist or Stalinist? Make your minds up people [joke!]

James, though the wall does, and a moat would help stop suicide bombers, do you really think that this is the only reason for them being there?
If you look at the path of the wall, it is just there to steal yet more of Palestine from the Palestinians
http://www.nogw.com/images/apartheid-wall.jpg
It is just another Zionist policy to secure their aim of a Jewish only Palestine.


Simply because i think alot of israelis (or workers living in the previously stated "israeli" area, if you like) will be happy that the bombs have stopped.
Yet the Israeli terrorist bombings of the Gaza strip continue....


hammer and sickle;
The wall is to stop scuicide bombers. It stops them.
Remember i was talking from an israeli point of view.


James, I was not arguing against you for putting accross the Israel point of view, I was arguing against the Israelis.

[Funky Monk]

Personally i think you are overplaying the stealing land idea. Perhaps it would be interesting if everyone here voted on what they thought wsa the most important reason for the Isreali fence but i believe that safety is paramount.


Seriously, what do you think would concern them more, taking yet more land or trying to stop those bastards who blow themselves up on buses?