Suicide Bombers, USA - What would you think about this?

[I Will Deny You]

I've noticed that some people on this site have sympathy for the suicide bombers in Israel. So I was wondering: If a Native American went into a grocery store and blew himself (and five other people) up, what would you think?

[revolutionary spirit]

5 random civilans?The that is wrong.Maybe if it was a police station in Texas or something,and it was 5 pigs that got roasted then it would be ok.

[flames of the flag]

Native americans have the right to kick ass, we have been for centuries and still are opressing them, but if they really wanted their demands met that would just get them labelled as terrorists and not really accomplish something, i think that they would be better off to do kidnappings flq style, but in the middle east i dont think they care as much about their government personel as they do here.
-flames

[Xvall]

Well, I think the people have 'sympathy' for the bombers, but do not aprove of the bombings themselves. They feel sorry that the people are raised in war-bound countries and end up having to resort to killing random people, but I don't think many people here like the fact that they are sacrificing themselves to destroy other's lives.

- Drake Dracoli

[Reuben]

I think the important distindtion that has to be made is between something being understandable and something being justifiable.

Suicide bombs may be very understandable but are never justifiable

[Reuben]

I think the important distindtion that has to be made is between something being understandable and something being justifiable.

Suicide bombs may be very understandable but are never justifiable

[Fires of History]

If anyone is brought to the brink of suicide bombings, there is something truly wrong with the situation that person is forced to live in.

But what would I think about a Native? I don't really know. It hasn't happened.

However, I fully support the Palestinian suicide bombings. How else is a 'unofficial' nation of people supposed to fight against the tyranny of Israel? How else does one stop genocide? How else does one fight U$ tanks, helicopters, jets, and guns?

Because they already tried the rocks...

If the suicide bombings aren't justified, well then neither is the state of Israel, which has systematically taken, and taken, and taken since 1948, killing Arabs has just sort of become the Israeli national pastime...

[sabre]

fuck that if it was in a police station it would be okay

thats fucking garbage.

try to tell the families of the policemen that it was justified, you do know all cops arent corrupt and bad.

causing violence will onyl provoke violence

[CheGuevara]

When the Palestinians try to get a shipment of conventional weapons so that they would at least have a chinaman's chance of fighting the Israelis conventionally, the Israelis led the world in crying bloody murder.

[munkey soup]

I don't agree with suicide bombing innocents, but Israel would much rather have suicide bombers killing their people so the can point at the Palestinians and scream "Terrorists, bloody savages!" than have to deal with a well armed urban-guerilla force, ready to fight to the last man.

[Fires of History]

Quote: from munkey soup on 1:29 am on April 2, 2002
I don't agree with suicide bombing innocents.

At some point you have to ask: How 'innocent' are you if you support a tyrannous state?

[I Will Deny You]

I never said that I agreed with the Israeli army's actions--I don't. Don't think for a second that I do, because I am apalled by plenty of the things that they have done. And while I certainly understand what would drive someone to become a suicide bomber, there's a big difference between understanding that and justifying it.

I'm not sure that going to a nightclub or taking a young child to a cafe is the equivalent of supporting a tyranous state. My point is that you, Fires of History, like many of us, are living on land that did not originally belong to your ancestors. Like my two Jewish grandparents who had no choice but to leave Europe because otherwise they would be killed, the 1948 settlers of Israel had no choice--before living in refugee camps for three years, they had been in ghettos and concentration camps. (The settlers before 1948 lived in peace with the Palestinians.) The suicide bombers hardly ever kill Israeli soldiers. They usually kill people who do nothing more than vote in elections. I vote, and I'm guessing you vote. Are we supporting tyranous states?

[ZaPaTiStA SoCiAlIsTa]

Why doesn’t the word 'terrorism' ever come up when Israel sends in its tanks and military? The suicide bombers are a result of Israeli oppression and the discrimination they deal with in their own land. The Israeli actions against Palestine are 10x worse than the suicide bombers. You always hear that “ the evil Palestine terrorist have killed more innocent ppl“ , but when do you ever hear about the Israeli terrorism? They justify their actions by stating that Palestine doesn’t want peace, but Israel does... So they feel compelled to kill more Palestinians, in order to stop terrorism!?!??! what kind of logic is that? I don’t support suicide bombers, but I don’t condemn them.

[ZaPaTiStA SoCiAlIsTa]

Here is another question, If you were born into oppression, all your life, you have never known freedom and you must deal with an unlimited amount of humiliation in your own land, and you encounter discrimination every hour of every day, would you not resort to such terrorist tactics? (answer truthfully)

[Fires of History]

"My point is that you, Fires of History, like many of us, are living on land that did not originally belong to your ancestors."

I know it would be splitting hairs, but I am part Cherokee and part Blackfoot as I mentioned in Lounge.

"Are we supporting tyranous states?"

Yes, we are. All of us are. Everyday. We give our tacid consent by going to work, we give our tacid consent by paying taxes, we give our tacid consent by everything we do that supports the status quo. None of us are innocent.

You asked about a suicide bombing in the U$? Then don't also forget to mourn the "innocents" of September 11, that being perhaps the best example of a suicide bombing in recorded history.

Yes, I do think that every citizen is responsible for the actions of their country. And, more importantly, doing everything they can to stop it, if they happen to disagree. And if they can't effect change, that's the torment of the progressive, and the personal hell of an activist. It's too simplistic to call all civilians such blanket, black and white terms as 'innocent' and 'guilty.' Why do you think I moved to Canada? I still owe Uncle Sam tax money out the ass and will never pay it. There was no way I could live in the U$ with a clear conscience.

If the people of Israel were really that concerned about suicide bombings, perhaps more would done about why they are happening. Instead, like in the U$, the citizens of Israel are, out of fear and ignorance, supporting a regime that quite seriously makes a total mockery of human rights...and human life...everyday, and makes a joke of their own claims to be 'blessed of God.'

Israel truly is the last, and perhaps worse, mistake made by the British Empire. You can thank the incompetency of British imperialism for your front page headlines tomorrow about Israel. Had the British not foolishy issued the Balfour Declaration, then got itself in such an exhausted and pathetic political state after World War II, perhaps the transition after the expiration of the British Mandate of Palestine would have been a smoother transition. Once it expired, Israel basically invented what is now known as Israel. For the record, this was never part of the plan (don't expect an Israeli to say that though), and was in direct violation of decades of promises and concessions the British made to the Palestinians (Why do you think the Arab League declared war right away?). And once the 'official' state was set up, hence came the floodwaters of immigration. With time, Israel would find support from the U$ (because by that time at least the British knew to get out, this was a keg of gunpowder about to blow). The U$ supports Israel, for reasons that are still not clear (at least, every 'reason' I've read is flimsy and see through).

My other point is that the war brewing, and slowly boiling over, in Palestine is yet another reason why imperialism DOESN'T WORK and is worse than a joke, it's a plague (something to think about in terms of U$ claims, promises, and commitments all over the world). Israel, as hard as it might be to fathom, should never have been brought about the way it was. Some professors I've had mention that perhaps it shouldn't have been formed at all. Leave it to the imperialism to keep the wars coming and coming.

And Zionism was popular. Why? Because Europe and the U$ were not very excited about letting so many Jews stick around. Many politicians at the time jumped at the chance to dump their problem right back where it all began: Palestine. I mean, you can't support Hitler's plan, but, but, said the politicians of the time, but, but we just can't have all these Jews here either! (Western anti-semitism is also key in all this). If anything, the Jews were tempted by religious sentimentality into moving back into a sitution that was a recipe for disaster, after all none of the politicians in the West were looking out for their best interests. The Jews should have stayed put! After World War II, if so many people wouldn't have run off to Israel under the propaganda of Zionism, then we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

'God gave us this land, we are tied to this land, we deserve to live in the Holy Land that God has provided us......' and so on and so forth. Well, no modern state with such an enlightened preface had much hope anyway. Especially with so many people around you who so vehemently disagree.

Do you think the existence of Israel is justified historically? Why or why not?

People Over Profits,
Trance

P.S. A great quote about 'tacid' consent: "The genius of any slave system is found in the dynamics which isolate slaves from each other, obscure the reality of a common condition, and make united rebellion against the oppressor inconceivable." -Andrea Dworkin

(Edited by Fires of History at 9:53 am on April 2, 2002)

[Fires of History]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 6:28 am on April 2, 2002
(The settlers before 1948 lived in peace with the Palestinians.)


I'll agree with you there, the British mandate set up a peace of sorts, perhaps better described as a tenuous peace.

However, do you think the Palestinians expected 6 million more Jews in the neighborhood any time soon? With tanks and guns to boot!

People Over Profits,
Trance

[deimos]

I agree with sabre. Remeber Ghandi:
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind!
But i also agree with Zapatista socialista. Her in austria you'll never hear about zionistic terrosism because then the jewish say that we're antisemite. Its particularly easy in austria because hitler was austrian. I think the best thing would be when the other arabian countries would say that they won't support a miltary action against the iraq as long as the israelis attack the palestinians.Or better: They won't export any oil!!
(were these sentences correct english?)

[Derar]

IWDY , i understand that the jews that survived from the holocaust had no choice ...... probably it's the allies fault , but what happend after they settled in palestine is the bad part ........ they expelled the original citizens and kicked them from their homes , who had nowhere to go except to the neighbour countries and live in refugee camps all their life , and then raise their children and 2 more generations in these refugee camps .
Not only that , but also massacres were committed against the palestinians , rape ...... and torture , all this made the palestinians leave their homes ...

honestly , how would u feel if a guest comes to ur house , and after a while he started destroying ur house and beating u...... and then kicked u from ur house !!

[Angie]

Suicide bombers are like individual candles on a birthday cake - it's pointless blowing them out one at a time. Either you leave everyone alone, or you hit them all at once. There's no effective middle ground when such violence comes into it.

[Valkyrie]

Suicide Bombing and war as I think of it, is like the little kid in school who has been bullied and oppressed his whole school life and comes to school with a shotgun and proceeds to pluck off his teacher and everyone in eyeshot, before turning the gun on himself ( ala Columbine, Colorado.)
The former is just done in the name of national defense.

It's futile -- because when it's all over with -- all there is, is a bunch of dead bodies and body parts-- and the song remains the same -- their problem is still there.


(Edited by Paris at 3:52 pm on April 2, 2002)

[Markxs]

i read somewhere in this topic that we are all guilty because we are part of society. i kind of agree with that. but when we leave this society, are we still able to help the ppl then ( without resorting to violence ). i think we need to find the middle path between living outside society and helping the ppl who cant go away from it ( homeless pppl etc ).

could someone tell me what would be a good path ?

[I Will Deny You]

I'm part Native American as well . . . but a very little bit and that's beside the point anyway.

Lots of you mentioned that what the Israeli army is doing is even worse, and I agree, as I've said before. Sheesh. My point is, on this board it doesn't seem acceptable to defend the Israeli army and it shouldn't be, but sympathizing with the suicide bombers is okay. Yes, Israel shouldn't have existed in the first place. Something had to be done, but the Allies should have been responsible and let more than two refugees into their countries.

How would these suicide bombers know if the people they were killing were adamant Zionists or pro-Palestine peace activists? The older people in Israel never had a chance to live anywhere else after World War II and probably haven't given much thought to moving elsewhere now. The younger people are usually the ones who are peace activists. The fact is, it's very hard to tell whether you're about to kill an asshole or a saint.

I live in the US, which you hate so very much, because a) I was born here and I have a strange fondness for the people here--where else could I find such great soul food? B) I'm sticking around, in part, to actually change things. I'm involved with lots of activist groups and I'm up on all sorts of conferences here in the DC area (which has lots of conferences). It's easier to make a difference in US policy if you're in the US. c) I don't know where else to go--Austria-Hungary doesn't exist anymore, Russia is almost awful as, and in some ways even worse than, the United States and Africa just isn't my kind of place. I doubt I'd be welcomed at an Indian reservation beacuse I'm only 1/8 Indian and they need all of the space for themselves. Tell me where to go and I'll go there! I'd go to Khazaria if I could, but that hasn't been an option for the last thousand or so years.

[Valkyrie]

Hi IWDY, I am Native American also;( Mohawk and Blackfoot. & Irish too. ) Because of the spectacular genocide upon the Native American Indian population in North America, the regulation on acceptance into a Tribe, to claim Reservation Lands or to waiver US taxes is quite broad-- all you have to do is prove 1/32 percent blood line.

I agree, Both sides need to de-escalate this bloodbath NOW. Surely they can negotiate some kind of acceptable deal.




(Edited by Paris at 9:24 pm on April 2, 2002)


(Edited by Paris at 10:00 pm on April 5, 2002)

[Markxs]

yes i agree they can de-escalate this problem. but listen to their leaders from either hamas or sharon ( the extremist of both countires i think ). isnt going to work at all. these ppl want chaos to remain in power.

i watched a few days ago the movie schindlers list with tears in my eyes( yes again :) ). but i kept wondering how those ppl who were once opressed could do the same trick to others. and no i dont mean all the jews i mean the zionists or whatever they are called.

it grieves me bad that ppl can fight over such minor difficulties. (skincolor,faith,money). i think though that opression is a good thing to fight against though. sourcide bombings no. peace demonstrations yes !

[flames of the flag]

is suicide bombing considered a guerrilla tactic?
anyway i don't think that we can go around talking about this (or anything) as terrorism because nowadays the average american considers che a terrorist. Everything is terrorism in the post 911 world, anybody kills anybody their a terrorist, israel is terrorist palestine is terrorist obl is terrorist and to most of us the cia is terrorist. All this talk about terrorism in the news really takes the piss out of it when pretty much anybody of any importance on a global scale is a terrorist, so we need to A, define terrorist then decide if suicide bombing is a terrorist act, or B, take terrorism out of our vocabulary because it is too misunderstood because of the idiocy of the mainstream media.
-flames

[Markxs]

terrorism.

the killing of ppl who dont support the leaders of the country or cannot change the country on their own, or who dont hold any weapons in the name of the country.

so killing civialins is terrorism to me.

but the killing of anyone is an act of hate and that will bring only more hate so, in the end you are killing youreslf and your ppl... you are fighting for.

[Pneuma]

It's easy to project subjective morality, labels, and judgement. However, we are all human, and there is some sort of objective standard of ethics that should transcend this. Imagine the impetus requisite to drive one to become a human bomb. It is not logical or morally quantifiable, but an act of sheer desperation. I cannot fathom that there are individuals, let alone masses, supporting these Zionist bastards. I am so sick and weary of hearing about how the Palestinians refuse to come to some sort of terms with what they have been left-handedly offered. It's like someone approaching you, stealing your wallet, comandeering your home, and slaughtering your family before your very eyes. They offer you ten percent of what you had in your wallet and expect no retribution for the shedding of your family's blood and the outright theft of your property. If you attempt retaliation in any form, you are considered a terrorist. How can any human being observe this and not see the injustice? I do not advocate violence, but in a situation like this I find it difficult to view any Zionist as a civilian. How many Jews, who suffered and perished at the sick hands of pure evil, roll in their graves every night viewing their very own progeny garbed in the robe of the tyrant they thought deposed?

[Reuben]

Hey fires of History, no one on this topic has espoused zionism, least not me so I do not know who you are arguing with when you say "Suicide bombbs aren't justified but neither is Israel.

I know people who went to Israel sepecifically as pro-palestinian activists in the same way that many fight people stayed to fight apatheid south Africa.

Finally I think you are very mistaken when you say that the Jews "Should have stayed put" and settled in Israel after the war out religious sentimentality. After the war wthere were masses of displaced people and the only country nthat offered to take in Jews was Peru.. In places like poland the situation was even wors than before as people blamed the jews for the invasion of poland.

Furthermore a huge proportion of the jews were secular atheists so to say that it related to religious sentimentality does not work.


I have never been a zionist and am constantly involved in pro-palestinian action but find it impossible to justify the killing of civilians without knowing their allegiance etc..

[bleed3r]

Where to begin... Well I'm at school and limited on time as well as the degree of politics involved in my reply... However, i think both lindsay and fires have written excellent posts on the issue. One thing that interested me in particular is where and why the US stands on this issue. Obviously they support Israel, and obviously for transparent reasons. A few theories, racism for one? "The only good paki is a dead one", or so says my disgruntled war-veteran of a neighbor. Or maybe it would seem too hypocritical and even more suspect if they supported palestine... The US performing mass genocide on the native people of their own land, and then condemning another country for doing the same? Not that hypocrisy would be anythign new. It also seems a bit ironic to be bombing Afghanistan while helping Palestine... It's the simple fact that the US doesnt consider official political terrorism as such, no matter how tyrranical. Maybe dubya figures he can gain more support through Israel. Or how about this one, maybe he's taking religious favor into consideration when deciding upon his seemingly random and illogical decisions on foreign policy?? We already know bush is a jesus freak and that he has no problem showing that he's willing to do all it takes to "preserve the important bridge between church and state", and that "faith is very important in a good leader"... I guess the idea of supporting one side just disgusts me... Efforts should be made to make reparations and stop the war, though with the radical groups i know that has a very slim chance of happening. The war can be stopped but the feeling wont disappear. History can't be erased as easy as the US thinks it can.

As far as the original prompt, I do not support suicide bombers, nor killing of any kind, however i also do not condemn them on the same scale on which i condemn the oppressive activities of israel, for the same reasons placed down by fires of history. "Because they already tried the rocks... "

Also, revolutionary spirit, you are disgusting. "Maybe if it was a police station in Texas or something,and it was 5 pigs that got roasted then it would be ok"??? What if i said "Oh yeah 5 random civilians is bad, but maybe it would be ok if they went and bombed spirit's family at their work buildings." All police are not oppressive, and i wouldn't wish death upon them regardless. When you give up your regard for life you waive any justifiable respect for that regard. Put more thought into that next time.

[Derar]

i think revolutionary spirit ment to say it in a sarcastic way ........

[guerrillaradio]

I have just watched a BBC documentary on suicide bombers (anyone else see that??) and so I have quite a lot to say about it, but my lack of patience and short attention span means that this post will probably not be as long as it should be...

Markx (I think it was him/her) was right by saying that we (as in the international society) are (at least partly) to blame for suicide bombers and terrorists. The world is to blame. The fact is that TERRORISM IS A SYMPTOM, NOT A CAUSE. You cannot kill every single terrorist (for obvious reasons), and even if you succeed, you have not defeated the obvious injustices that existed in the first place to force people to that point. I'm not saying that terrorists are at all justified, sometimes the cause they're supposedly supporting isn't justified, but we, as a whole must examine the circumstances which have led to such an upsurge in terrorism. Sure suicide terrorists have existed for thousands of years, but it is in the last 20 years that they have really become an international problem. How did we let the world get to this point?? Why do these people feel this way?? What has happened to make them so desperate and nihilistic?? These are the questions that Sharon, Bush et al should be asking instead "how many can we kill today??".

VIOLENCE BREEDS VIOLENCE

Essentially, the violent response to violence is a matter of pure, childish pride. It is the refusal to let brutality go unanswered. If you are punched in a playground as a kid, you punch back. It really is that simple. Sharon is too bloody-minded to be mature and open-minded to even consider any kind of alternative to full-scale invasion. This is a terrible situation, and there seems to be no easy way out of it. Once you start thinking in such a close-minded fashion, then there is little hope for any morality to enter your actions.

This applies to Palestinian suicide bombers too. People call the Israelis right-wing and nationalistic, but many Palestinians are the same. Maybe with justification, but the fact remains that many, many Palestinians are full of hate. hate, as well as singular thinking (or tunnel vision) is another obstacle that prevents rational actions. What can possibly be proved by blowing you and ten other people up in a shopping mall?? How can you possibly help your cause by doing that?? The fact is they aren't, and they know that. The real reason that suicide bombers exist in the Middle East is little to do with Arafat and the infitada:

We should remember that they are called "SUICIDE" bombers for a reason. Suicide is an option usually taken by those suffering depression and desperation, when it feels that there is no way out. That is how most Palestinians feel. However, what keeps the suicide rate both in this country and America low is the fact that the majority of people know someone who will be devastated by their death. That is not a factor for many Palestinians. In fact, the parents, siblings and friends of the majority of suicide bombers are proud of them, as they feel that they are a national hero, a martyr. They feel that their son/daughter (Palestinians started using women suicide bombers in January this year) has died for a cause, that their life has some kinda meaning. They are convinced that s/he will go to heaven, and that Allah will be proud. Therefore, many Palestinians become suicide bombers in an attempt to impress their parents. When self-sacrifice is so inter-woven into a culture, you have to ask how it came about. And the fundamental answer is religion. I am sure that I do not need to expand on the connection between Islam and suicide bombers, so I won't. The fact is that suicide bombers are held up a heros and martyrs for a just cause by their people.

However, that is not the case with all suicide bombers. Many bombers are made that way because they are rejected by society and feel that they have nothing. Nothing to hold onto, noone to love, nothing to like, and nothing to believe in. In the same way that poverty attracts political extremism, poverty of the mind and life attracts religious extremism. Some bombers and terrorists were brought up in what is generally called Western civilisation ie Europe and America. Here they are subjected to racism, discrimination, hatred and poverty, so they respond accordingly. Many Arabs raised in the West hate the West because they think that the West hates them. Of course, the vast majority of Western people are not racists, but to a person living in a foreign country who already feels alienated and out of place, it feels like that. They need something to believe in. For the same reason that some of the less informed kids become members of the BNP, British/American Muslims become terrorists. It's a mixture of boredom and lack of direction. They want to do something that will distinguish them.

I'm sure that I had other points to make, and I'm equally sure that I could have expressed myself better, but hey, I was typing as i think. Some of my points are based on little more than guesswork and common sense btw, so I stand open to correction. I am not an expert on this subject at all, I just have quite strong opinions on it.