The Chinese System

[apathy maybe]

I have been asked to describe what is currently the system in China. Reference to what they are claiming to be and also what is happening in Hong Kong would be good.

Please keep the jargon to a minimum.

(Yes I do know what it is, I just can't explain it very well)

[scrap metal]

I have a close, personal friend who is from (and on the 23rd going back to) Hong Kong. He says that Hong Kong was a thriving capitalist city, mand that they were supposed to be able to pick their own leader, but now the rest of China is getting complete controll back.

Personally I think it will destroy the city if it is forced to go basck to communism. That many people in that small of a place, all being forced to give up capitalism in an abrupt fashion is never good.

[Daymare17]

The social system in China is an unfinished process so we can't apply either one or the other preconceived label. Of course, it is not socialist (which it never was). In short it is a Stalinist command-economy with a large private sector. A comprehensive analysis is found here

Where is China going? (http://www.marxist.com/Asia/china94.html)

[Revolt!]

It has become rich through private capitalism, it joined the WTO in 2002 for goodness sake!

It can never be called socialist at its present state in my opinion, it is authoritarian.

[antieverything]

Read the book China's New Political Economy. Very enlightening on the topic.

[apathy maybe]

Thanks people.
(This is something I'm not too sure on) How are the leaders selected? Who can be a member of the 'Communist' Party?

[Fidelbrand]

I am the only Hong Kong resident here (I guess.)

For Hong Kong, the democrats are stirring up big shits in Hong Kong, destablising the capitalistic economy (Condemning the june 4th massacre, and organized a 1/2 million people parade to condemn the HKSAR Government because of its incompetence in dealing with SARS, political accountability and the handling of the economic crisis). One point to be noted is that it is rumoured that thesedemocrats are financed by U.S. to destabilise / bring more democracy to HK. I believe so too.

PRC relaxed their iron grip in enduring these outrageous (in PRC's eyes). Stressing on solidarity and harmony, also , made some economic measures to alleviate the economic situation, e.g. allowing the "solo tours" (meaning mainlanders can come to Hong Kong freely without much restrictions) in order to revitalise the trough of HK's economy.

A recent event: Some democratic radio hosts were alleged to be threatened by the PRC, they left the radio programmes, and this incidence is rocking HK big time..... The radio hosts were bullied because they kept barking on the faults of the HKSAR and PRc government at 8am every morning. 2 hosts has abdanoned their jobs and 2 of them is in U.S. right now , they said they are afriad of secret assinations and threatenings to their family members.

Leader , the chief executive in Hong Kong is elected by a 800 membered comittiee which is quite restrictive. All the ruling classes who aspires to kiss PRC's ass is in this comittee. We do not have universal suffrage. The democrats are striving for it in 2007/08, but PRc just ammended the "Basic Law" saying that it is not the time to hold it yet.

Hope this little information can help, actually, what specfic info. u need? i am most happy to help to tell more. ^_______^

Extra info: Personally speaking, i wish to say that Hong Kong is really capitalistic and selfish.... scums everywhere, but during the crisis we had last year on SARS, people start to be compassionate and sensitive to each others, which is something very valuable in my opinion.

[elijahcraig]

Three words: Monopoly State Capitalism.

[antieverything]

Three words: Monopoly State Capitalism.

Three words: think for yourself!

Really, do you do anything but spew the same tired crap you read on some Marxist internet archive?

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:18 PM
Three words: Monopoly State Capitalism.
What the hell does this mean? It's just that - three words. It tells us nothing about the real class nature of the regime.

[elijahcraig]

What the hell does this mean? It's just that - three words. It tells us nothing about the real class nature of the regime.

Since we are on a Marxist message board, I assumed everyone would know this term.

Just three words?...are you intentionally trying to make yourself like a moron?

I suggest you read Lenin's Imperialism, State and Revolution, and Marx's Das Kapital if you are going to act like a Communist and post Trot quotes in your signature (a combination of ignorance and Trotskyism...that's never happened before here!).


Three words: think for yourself!

Really, do you do anything but spew the same tired crap you read on some Marxist internet archive?

What the fuck is your problem, you little ****??? This isn't "not thinking for myself," this is following a Marxist analysis of economic systems. We can't all live in the fantasy world of vague analyses and "creative thinking" when it comes to these issues.

What "thinking for yourself" has to do with analyzing an economic system is beyond me.

[elijahcraig]

Oh, and I see you are really "thinking for yourself"--
Read the book China's New Political Economy. Very enlightening on the topic.

Very enlightening to see that your creative mind agrees with the analysis of another. Damn you, you dogmatic fucker.

[Saint-Just]

If you read Hu Jintao and Deng Xiaoping (which you should be able to find on the internet), they say that China is socialist and follows the ideas of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. They say that they are applying MLM ideas to current circumstances. They point out that the difference between their economy and that of the Americans is that in America 10% of people benefit from the nation's wealth where as they say in China everyone benefits and that these market reforms and distributing wealth equally rather than creating a rich elite.


Personally I think it will destroy the city if it is forced to go basck to communism. That many people in that small of a place, all being forced to give up capitalism in an abrupt fashion is never good.

That would be wonderful and it could be easily done but it would be quite violent as a social revolution. But, there are many cities in China similar to Hong Kong. China is more likely to adapt to the economic system in HK rather than HK being forced to adopt the policies of China (which aren't socialist in any sense).

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 10:50 AM

Since we are on a Marxist message board, I assumed everyone would know this term.

Just three words?...are you intentionally trying to make yourself like a moron?

I suggest you read Lenin's Imperialism, State and Revolution, and Marx's Das Kapital if you are going to act like a Communist and post Trot quotes in your signature (a combination of ignorance and Trotskyism...that's never happened before here!).
I'm sorry if I seemed harsh and I think we should have a comradely tone. We don't really get anywhere with insults and denunciations.

If you would like to explain your theory of "Monopoly State Capitalism" in detail then I'm willing to listen. It's just that I've never heard of this theory.

[elijahcraig]

It's not "my theory." It was developed by Lenin mainly, at least in the last century.

I would advise you to read Lenin's "Imperialism" for a good explanation.

[Daymare17]

Originally posted by [email protected]Jun 22 2004, 02:56 PM
It's not "my theory." It was developed by Lenin mainly, at least in the last century.

I would advise you to read Lenin's "Imperialism" for a good explanation.
Lenin's theory of imperialism dealt with the concentration of private capital and the political effects of this.

How can this apply to modern-day Stalinist China, where capitalism (private ownership of the means of production) has been abolished for some time, and is only now being reintroduced in the form of privatisation of the nationalised economy, not nationalisation of the private economy as was/is usually the case with imperialism?

Again I would prefer if you posted some real theoretical text as you're not really giving me much of a basis for polemic...

[elijahcraig]

Look, you should, even though you are a dogmatic trot, be able to figure this concept out...even by just looking at the three words "State monopoly capitalism."

It is the monopoly by the state of the capital in the nation. Lenin said that socialism was merely state monopoly capitalism which embraces the entire people--in China, they have an economy which is not for the entire people, but for the elite in the state, through which the profit is channeled.

"Stalinist China."

No, China was once Marxist, now it is revisionist.

Please show me how a revisionist state capitalist country is in any way Marxist.

[Daymare17]

"Stalinist China."

No, China was once Marxist, now it is revisionist.

OK, I'm not going to argue with you. Call it a retreat or whatever you like, I'm not going to waste my time debating when it's clear that we have totally different starting points.

[antieverything]

Just so you know, China's New Political Economy is over 300 pages long and is simply an in depth analysis of China's economic system. Telling someone to read it in no way makes me a dogmatic person.

I've read Lenin and I've read Marx...I've also read a ton of other things that give different interpretations. That tends to happen to you when you get an education, after all!

[elijahcraig]

I don't like being told to "think for myself" when I am probably one of the least dogmatic Marxists you will find on this site.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by scrap [email protected] 15 2004, 05:29 AM
I have a close, personal friend who is from (and on the 23rd going back to) Hong Kong. He says that Hong Kong was a thriving capitalist city, mand that they were supposed to be able to pick their own leader, but now the rest of China is getting complete controll back.

Personally I think it will destroy the city if it is forced to go basck to communism. That many people in that small of a place, all being forced to give up capitalism in an abrupt fashion is never good.
Hong Kong is not forced to practice communism at least for the next 40 years , as stipulated in the Basic Law and Joint Declaration... :D

[Postteen]

Whatever the political situation in China is,i think(or i want to think)that chinese people still like Mao.I've seen some documentaries for China(maybe it was the one with Meg and Ian)and that's what i assume...I don't know..(the only thing i do know is that chinese-and korean-people are so beautiful!!.....awww.... :wub: =D :lol: yes they are!

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Beatle [email protected] 24 2004, 09:58 PM
Whatever the political situation in China is,i think(or i want to think)that chinese people still like Mao.I've seen some documentaries for China(maybe it was the one with Meg and Ian)and that's what i assume...I don't know..(the only thing i do know is that chinese-and korean-people are so beautiful!!.....awww.... :wub: =D :lol: yes they are!
The older generation indeed remember and love the hell out of Mao.
But the sad fact is : younger generation generally tied him as a tyrant and a dictator.

You know in book stores, books related to "how to be rich?" and other business management books far outsold those political books, such as Mao. Books on Mao stake up a huge stake where no one pays attention in the corner of the store.

This is capitalist China, as a Chinese , I do feel sad, I hope I was born few decades before.

[Postteen]

yes but the chinese still go to Mao's Mausoleum!I didn't know if there were only the old people,but there were too many i think.Unfortunately as you said the new generation has a different opinion. :(

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Beatle [email protected] 25 2004, 09:22 PM
yes but the chinese still go to Mao's Mausoleum!I didn't know if there were only the old people,but there were too many i think.Unfortunately as you said the new generation has a different opinion. :(
yes, mostly tourists and some Chinese who reminescent / wish to give a mental touch to the past glory of the Mao-led CCP . I contend that student who major in politics will have many opinions to say about Mao, to my knowledge, they are really scattered and polarised.

Doesn't matter, I believe the current CCP would stick to the four cardinal paths set by Deng Xiaopeng. China is surely running capitalism but its concern for the workers and the unpriviledged is closely operating realistically in the walks of the people's life. But whether fullblown communism will occur in China, I think that might take a little more time, since it jumped out of the "circle" with Deng's open door policy that led to state capitaliism.

[__ca va?]

The main cause for the Chinese government opening towards capitalism is that they are not stupid. At present time communism is not achievable. The other problem is that it can't be reached in one country (as the example of the USSR shows). It ruins the economy.

My opinion's that China was lucky, because the socialist regime took power 32 years after in Russia. It takes the economy around 50 years get at the state of collapse so in 1989, when Russian socialism failed, China still had plenty of time to reform. The leaders didn't want to lose power, so they slowly opened for capitalism. Since then China's economy is developing, though the country itself can't be called socialist any more. It is now only a capitalist dictature under the cloak of socialism.