Stalin

[h&s]

This is an early quote from Che:

Once more I could convince myself how terrible the capitalist octopuses are. I swore on a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin, I swore not to rest before these capitalist octopuses are destroyed."
Was he a Stalinist?
Did he know what Stalin had done?

[Hate Is Art]

No and Probably, he was a Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist would call Stalinism Marxist-Leninism, everyone else would call it hell!

[boško buha]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 14 2004, 04:12 PM
Was he a Stalinist?

[QUOTE]i think that somebody should try to explain this(i consider myself not worthy discussing the possibility) and we should not turn our back on this question.

[h&s]

I have been told that Che did not believe the Trotskyist "lies" about Stalin.
I suppose that it does not matter if he looked up to Stalin because at the end of the day I can't think of anything bad that Che did (I don't know that much about him, so someone is now bound to tell me!), and his good points far out-weigh his bad ones.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 15 2004, 02:57 PM
I have been told that Che did not believe the Trotskyist "lies" about Stalin.
I suppose that it does not matter if he looked up to Stalin because at the end of the day I can't think of anything bad that Che did (I don't know that much about him, so someone is now bound to tell me!), and his good points far out-weigh his bad ones.
Let us see.He created labor camps for homosexuals,the mentally handicap, and AIDS victims.He ruined Cuba's economy.He sent many humans to their deaths in his petty revolutions in Bolivua and Congo.Just to name a few.

Ernesto was known more as having views which would please the Chinese.

[Wiesty]

Well he might of not known all of what was going on in Europe, But nethertheless, Stalin was a "Comrade" Of Che's. He fought for Communism as did Castro and Che (who was more solocist then communist but w/e)

Its like choosing who was better between Rommel and Hitler. To use they were both baddies, but Rommel was the better man

[Essential Insignificance]

There have been vast amounts of opinions and viewpoints on what Che actually was, in regards to his "ideology"…many proclaiming him as a Stalinist, Leninist, Marxist, Maoist, Castroist, and some claming that he was a amalgamate of every one of the declared above.

And then on the direct opposite, others are suggestive of the implied fact, that Che was not a Communist at all.

And in further, some Che biographers and the alike arewilling to put forward that Che was a ''devoted'' Trotskyist.

Most of all these assertions are but forward with feeble evidence to pay testimony to themselves.

For instance; very succinctly-

Che was a Leninist-because he believed that the vanguard was paramount in the overthrow of the existing social conditions.

Che was a Stalinist-because he wanted to "unconditionally" industrialize Cuba from the outset of the "second part" of the revolution.

Che was a Trotskyist-because he wanted to start revolutions in South American countries, that would inturn, spark an South American mass, continent, revolution.

And then there are those whom propose that Che was incontestably not a communist but rather; was chiefly influenced by Freud, Jung and particularly Adler.

But I guess it’s all up to you.

[Wiesty]

i say there should be a column for that where u have all of the qualitites like che you should be called like a

Cheist or a Guevaraist

[bluerev002]

Its really not that big of a deal. I myself like Hitlers ingenious military tactics, although I hate his ideas. He was a genious when it came to military tactics, AND NO I AM NOT A FOLLOWER OF NAZISM.

Who knows why Che said that, but he was a complex man. Maybe he didnt follow Stalin and his ideals 100%. He was a bit more totalitarian in his actions, and like what was already stated a bit homophobic.

I think i read somewhere that he was also liked Napolions military tactics also.

It doesnt matter. Were not here to follow Che in every single thing he belived, just take the good ones.

[Guerrilla22]

Earlier on in his life, before and maybe even during the Cuban revolution he definitely bought into the concept of one policy for all, which Stalin embraced, but It's obviously impossible to tell if Che consideered himself a Stalist. Later on in his life, I'd say Che was closer to being a Maoist than anything else.

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 03:48 PM
Let us see.He created labor camps for homosexuals,the mentally handicap, and AIDS victims.He ruined Cuba's economy.He sent many humans to their deaths in his petty revolutions in Bolivua and Congo.Just to name a few.

Ernesto was known more as having views which would please the Chinese.
AIDS patients? people didnt even know what AIDS was back in the day...

Ruined Cuba's economy? Cuba greatly improved after Castro came to power...if you would compare it when Batista was in power...Cuba was one giant casino back then were the maffia could gamble. People can read now, education and medical care have gone high, iliteracy is about as much or even less than in the US.

[Hate Is Art]

Any sources for those Columbia or did you just make it up?

[fernando]

Ernesto was known more as having views which would please the Chinese.

Note that Che could have gotten his more pro chinese views later in his life. Probably just before or after the Cuban Revolution.


"Once more I could convince myself how terrible the capitalist octopuses are. I swore on a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin, I swore not to rest before these capitalist octopuses are destroyed."
Che said this after he was travelling again after he just became a doctor if I recall correctly

[Saint-Just]

Did he know what Stalin had done?

Yes, lies about Stalin and Lenin were around since 1917. Collectivisation was reported on as it happened and so on. People who say Che did not know about it are ignorant of history.

[fernando]

Yes, lies about Stalin and Lenin
Are you saying that Stalin didnt do all the things we are taught that he did...like being responsible for 100 millions deaths?

[Wiesty]

of coarse he did, he caused the great ukrainian genoicde, which killed an equal ammount of people as the Holocaust, if not even more.

Go to history and read the crimes of stalin
And whats this lies about lennin?
Lenin didnt kill no 5 million people
lenin is famous becaused he helped commies without lethal force

[h&s]

Yes, lies about Stalin and Lenin were around since 1917
So you think that what Stalin was said to do to people was a lie?

Anyway, don't class Stalin in the same category as Lenin.
While Lenin supported Stalin in his early days and helped him a lot, in the last year of his life he realised what a mistake it would be to give Stalin the power, and really changed his mind about him.
By that time though it was too late. :(

And Columbia, just how much shit do you make up?
AIDs only came into the human race about 20 years after Che died.

[Wiesty]

Its like Stalin and Lenin were playing good cop bad cop.

Lenin was out there talking to the people and writing documetns and going to meetings,
Well stalin was out there making the people slave and killing anyone who opposed him

[h&s]

Apparently Stalin was good at organising worker's demonstrations though..

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:57 AM
Its really not that big of a deal. I myself like Hitlers ingenious military tactics, although I hate his ideas. He was a genious when it came to military tactics, AND NO I AM NOT A FOLLOWER OF NAZISM.


:D Hitler was not a great military tactician, sure he thought of blitzkrieg but he made many mistakes on the eastern front and the western front. On the eastern front his mentality of never giving an inch or withdrawing cost him many battles, his whole invasion of Russia is questionable. In the battle of Stalingrad he refused for the 6th army to withdraw while there was still a chance and then they were slaughtered. On the western front he made several operations where he gambled everything. The battle of the bulge for example he could have made a smaller encirclement and won and halted the allied advance for a bit maybe but no he always has to mkae gambles.

[fernando]

I would say Hitler was a good politician to a certain extend...if he was shot just before the war started, well some time before that, so when Germany was doing well again economically, I think he would have gone in the history books as a great man and statues would have been made for him and bla bla

[Saint-Just]

Are you saying that Stalin didnt do all the things we are taught that he did...like being responsible for 100 millions deaths?

Yes, although he is not accused of being responsible for 100 million deaths. People were killed in the USSR, however they were not killed in artificial famines, murdered because Stalin was paranoid and so on.


lenin is famous becaused he helped commies without lethal force

You are right, but, Lenin was accused of needlessly massacring people and ordering many other atrocities. For example, Lenin is accused of an artificial famine in 1921 that apparently killed up to 5 million people, not to mention numerous other accusations.


great ukrainian genoicde, which killed an equal ammount of people as the Holocaust

The Ukranian famine is said to have killed half that died in the Holocaust, of course its untrue.

[bluerev002]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 08:46 AM
:D Hitler was not a great military tactician, sure he thought of blitzkrieg but he made many mistakes on the eastern front and the western front. On the eastern front his mentality of never giving an inch or withdrawing cost him many battles, his whole invasion of Russia is questionable. In the battle of Stalingrad he refused for the 6th army to withdraw while there was still a chance and then they were slaughtered. On the western front he made several operations where he gambled everything. The battle of the bulge for example he could have made a smaller encirclement and won and halted the allied advance for a bit maybe but no he always has to mkae gambles.
True, the bastard did get pretty cocky around the middle of his Euro invasion which lead him to thinking he could take on the Russians and his non withdrawl tactics.

When he was starting out and before major war broke out he didnt gamble so much- maybe there wasnt so much to gamble I guess is way.

Hm, maybe its just my fasination with blitzkreig.

Only a crazy sonuva***** like Hitler could have thought of that...well not really..

[Colombia]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 16 2004, 10:45 AM
Any sources for those Columbia or did you just make it up?
Did you really think I would come empty handed?

Companero: The life and death of Che Guevara.

I don't have the book with me so I cannot tell you the page.Even if I did though I wouldn't bother to check cause I'm too lazy but anyone with a common sense can figure out which chapter it is in. :lol:

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:37 AM
AIDS patients? people didnt even know what AIDS was back in the day...

Ruined Cuba's economy? Cuba greatly improved after Castro came to power...if you would compare it when Batista was in power...Cuba was one giant casino back then were the maffia could gamble. People can read now, education and medical care have gone high, iliteracy is about as much or even less than in the US.
Again people do your research.Look up AIDS and see what you find.

No Cuba's economy improved only after Ernesto left Cuba. I can't figure out how Ernesto improved the economy when all the people did was "voluntary" work.

Now let us take a look at Cuba and Puerto Rico shall we? In Puerto Rico people can read and write.Puerto Rico has the highest standard of living in all of Latin America( although that isn't saying much).Education and medical are high as well thanks to the US.Unlike Cuba though Puerto Rico has less refugees fleeing to the US than the Cubans.Understand ese?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I didnt read all of this but of course Che was a Stalinist. A better word would be Stalin supporter, he supported Mao aswell and any communist movement at the time of the revolution and his life. They were Cuba's life support machine remember but remember Stalin didnt have the horrble associations it does now.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 09:49 PM
I didnt read all of this but of course Che was a Stalinist. A better word would be Stalin supporter, he supported Mao aswell and any communist movement at the time of the revolution and his life. They were Cuba's life support machine remember but remember Stalin didnt have the horrble associations it does now.
Yes he was. All atrocities Stalin was accused of were reported at the time they happened, by William Randolph Hearst's media empire. Similarly (as I mentioned above) supposed atrocities of Lenin were reported at the time they occurred.

Evidence: http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...936-frameup.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1936/1936-frameup.htm)

http://colley.co.uk/garethjones/published_...ed_articles.htm (http://colley.co.uk/garethjones/published_articles/published_articles.htm)

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1988/038822.shtml

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/jones11.htm

Since you called me stupid, can I call you a liar?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

No it was a guess, by the way that was me being sympathetic your kind of view on things.

By the way you need to calm down and go prove to me in that other thread all about how nihlism can be equated with fascism.

[redstar2000]

A very "disorderly" thread...


Unlike Cuba though, Puerto Rico has less refugees fleeing to the US than the Cubans.

Ever been to New York City? There's an enormous number of Puerto Rican refugees who live there...probably far exceeding the number of Cuban gusanos living in Miami.


All atrocities Stalin was accused of were reported at the time they happened, by William Randolph Hearst's media empire.

What communist would take seriously anything reported by the Rupert Murdoch of that era? Hearst was well-known in his time as both an insatiable imperialist and a quasi-fascist. Indeed, even among bourgeois journalists, the status of the Hearst papers was approximately equal to the status of today's tabloids...or Fox News.


Hitler was not a great military tactician, sure he thought of blitzkrieg...

No, actually it was not his idea. There was a young German general in the late 1930s who wrote in a military journal that no one had really understood the power of a massed tank offensive for encircling an enemy army, cutting off its supply lines, and forcing it to surrender. Oddly enough, the young Charles De Gaulle had the same idea.

What Hitler did was listen to his young general; the French government of the time did not listen to De Gaulle.

Hitler himself was a poor tactician and no better as a strategist. Allowing the bulk of the British army to escape at Dunkirk was sheer ineptitude. Invading Russia before finishing off the British in North Africa was unbelievably stupid. The Russian invasion itself was poorly planned (no winter uniforms!!!) and far too broadly conceived to produce useful results. Stalingrad was the logical outcome of "strategy" as megalomania.

Finally, it should be noted that Che admired Stalin as "a great revolutionary"...many people did in the period 1953-1975. Stalin was contrasted to Khrushchev and later Brezhnev to the detriment of the latter two individuals. That never implied that Che wished to emulate Stalin in any particular way.

Che was not a "Stalin-groupie".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[MiniOswald]

isnt raul castro a stalinist, and didnt he and che be the major players in the missile crisis. I seem to rememver it was those 2 who went to the soviet union to discuss the plan.

[h&s]

I thought the missile crisis was just a ploy from the USSR to get U$ missiles out of Turkey. Castro and Che just claimed responsibility afterwards to look good.


Hitler was not a great military tactician, sure he thought of blitzkrieg...
Hitler was probably the WORST military tactition of all time.
He ordered the Luftwaffe to stop the bombing of British airfields and to bomb London instead, when just a few more days of bombing would have wiped out the RAF and paved the way for a German sea-invasion.
He also ordered his forces to stay put in Stalingrad when a retreat could have made a pincer attack on the Red Army easy.

[Wiesty]

any ways
Stalin was the Allied Hitler
and Hitler
was the axis Stalin

[fuerzasocialista]

Now let us take a look at Cuba and Puerto Rico shall we? In Puerto Rico people can read and write.Puerto Rico has the highest standard of living in all of Latin America( although that isn't saying much).Education and medical are high as well thanks to the US.Unlike Cuba though Puerto Rico has less refugees fleeing to the US than the Cubans.Understand ese?

Okay, this is just flat out bullshit. First off, Puerto Rico is a U$ colony. It was acquired by the U$ in 1898 after the Spanish-American war. In response to WWI, the U$ congress passed the Jones Act of 1917 granting citizenship to Puerto Ricans thus making them eligible for the draft so they can go a fight for the "Man" and their new "country". There is no such thing as Puerto Rican refugees. They weren't fleeing anything other than they were just looking for jobs. Even though Gov. Luis Muñoz Marin's Operation Bootstrap in the 1940's played a large part in industrializing Puerto Rico, there was a mass migration to New York, Dominican Republic and Cuba. Why? Looking for jobs. I don't think you would call the rural farmers that came to the big cities looking for jobs during the U$ Industrial Revolution in the late 1800's refugees. As for the levels of education and healthcare in Puerto Rico; Puerto Rico is probably one of the biggest userpers of welfare and federal assistance from the U$. The majority of the people resident in the island simply don't work. And many of them have no problem collecting from the government and not move an inch in order to better educate themsleves or take on a trade in effort to actually find of job.



Ever been to New York City? There's an enormous number of Puerto Rican refugees who live there...probably far exceeding the number of Cuban gusanos living in Miami.


I don't even call them Puerto Rican. They are Nuyoricans. The majority of them are nothing more than a disgrace to Puerto Rico. They can't tell you shit about Puerto Rican history and can't even speak a lick of spanish. They, along with the lazy bums in Puerto Rico, are the reason as to why out of all the Latino groups, Puerto Ricans are at the bottom of the barrel as far as standards of living go.


By the way, my Father is from Mayagüez, Puerto Rico just in case you were wondering what my qualifications are.



As my independent activists brethren would say:

¡Muerte Al Imperialismo Yanqui Y Que Viva Puerto Rico Libre!

[fernando]

Now let us take a look at Cuba and Puerto Rico shall we? In Puerto Rico people can read and write.Puerto Rico has the highest standard of living in all of Latin America( although that isn't saying much).

name your source for this <_<

In case you didnt know...a few years after the Cuban Revolution illiteracy rates in Cuba were reduced to a level as high as in the US.
Yes in Puerto Rico people can read and write, so can people in Cuba...but ok if you could decide you would probably still want Batista to rule Cuba...making it one big Las Vegas which would be exploited by the maffia and everybody with left wing ideas would be drowned in the sea of something....

[Romanticar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 03:34 PM
Again people do your research.Look up AIDS and see what you find.

No Cuba&#39;s economy improved only after Ernesto left Cuba. I can&#39;t figure out how Ernesto improved the economy when all the people did was "voluntary" work.

Now let us take a look at Cuba and Puerto Rico shall we? In Puerto Rico people can read and write.Puerto Rico has the highest standard of living in all of Latin America( although that isn&#39;t saying much).Education and medical are high as well thanks to the US.Unlike Cuba though Puerto Rico has less refugees fleeing to the US than the Cubans.Understand ese?
There&#39;s just one thing I can&#39;t understand: why do you have a Che avatar when it is so obvious that you don&#39;t like (hate) neither him nor his ideology?

[DaCuBaN]

I had Ferdinand Marcos for a while.... now I&#39;ve got me... does that mean I have to love both Marcos and myself? :blink: :lol:

[Romanticar]

No, of course not. But does the fact that somebody doesn&#39;t like Che means that he should destroy every discussion on this forum with irrelevant facts?

And what is the point of having an avatar with someone you dislike? It&#39;s the same as if I (or any leftist) put a George Bush avatar. For me that tiny pic should simbolize your ideals and views.

Anyway, the discussion it&#39;s about Josif Visarionovich Stalin so I think we should end this discussion soon. ;)

[Saint-Just]

Why is Colombia not restricted? At best he is a blasphemous socialist, but it seems to me he is a capitalist and an imperialist.

[Guerrilla22]

isnt raul castro a stalinist, and didnt he and che be the major players in the missile crisis. I seem to rememver it was those 2 who went to the soviet union to discuss the plan.

yeah, Raul was/is a Stalinist, however he and Che came into conflict later on, as Che sided more with the Chinese during the Sino-Soviet conflict and Raul of course sided with the Soviets.

[elijahcraig]

any ways
Stalin was the Allied Hitler
and Hitler
was the axis Stalin

How simplistic and pathetic, really.

Look back at the historical situation...and you will regret condemning Stalin for making a pact with a nation to avoid total war from all fronts on the unprepared USSR.


yeah, Raul was/is a Stalinist, however he and Che came into conflict later on, as Che sided more with the Chinese during the Sino-Soviet conflict and Raul of course sided with the Soviets.

But the Chinese were Stalin-supporters&#33;

The USSR at that point was a revisionist state going down the drain.

Come on people, at least make some effort to sound logical.

[fernando]

Again people do your research.Look up AIDS and see what you find.

Ok..I just did, just check out this website: http://www.aegis.com/topics/timeline/default.asp

[Saint-Just]

This is a good quote from Che:

"In the so called mistakes of Stalin lies the difference between a revolutionary attitude and a revisionist attitude.... I have come to communism because of daddy Stalin and nobody must come and tell me that I mustn&#39;t read Stalin. I read him when it was very bad to read him. That was another time. And because I&#39;m not very bright, and a hard-headed person, I keep on reading him. Especially in this new period, now that it is worse to read him. Then, as well as now, I still find a Seri of things that are very good." ~Che Guevara

[elijahcraig]

Chairman, that ends this debate, as far as I am concerned.

And anyone who says different is simply being difficult.

[fernando]

Che read Stalin&#39;s work, but I dont know if that would make him a Stalinist.
But that&#39;s just my opinion. I once tried to read Mein Kampf by Hitler (which is a very boring book) but that doesnt make me a Nazi

[elijahcraig]

Do you call Hitler, "daddy Hitler"?

[elijahcraig]

And you also have to ignore this statement: In the so called mistakes of Stalin lies the difference between a revolutionary attitude and a revisionist attitude....