Free Tibet?

[elijahcraig]

I know this has been a large debate for some time among the left, so I thought I'd post a good analysis of the situation:

FREE TIBET?
By Liam O'Ruairc

In Western countries, the movement to 'Free Tibet' from Chinese
occupation is very popular among the 57 different varieties of
liberals and human rights campaigners. The media generally presents a
very positive image of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama is hailed as a modern
saint, and an idealized image of Tibet before the Chinese take over
is given. However, it is worth examining what sort of place Tibet was
before the Chinese intervention, who benefited and who lost from it,
and who the people campaigning for 'Free Tibet' are (1).

In Tibet, prior to the Chinese take over, theocratic despotism had
been the rule for generations. An English visitor to Tibet in 1895,
Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the Tibetan people were under
the "intolerable tyranny of monks" and the devil superstitions they
had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon
described the Dalai Lama's rule as "an engine of oppression" and "a
barrier to all human improvement." At about that time, another
English traveller, Captain W.F.T. O'Connor, observed that "the great
landowners and the priests . . . exercise each in their own dominion
a despotic power from which there is no appeal," while the people
are "oppressed by the most monstrous growth of monasticism and priest-
craft the world has ever seen." Tibetan rulers, like those of Europe
during the Middle Ages, "forged innumerable weapons of servitude,
invented degrading legends and stimulated a spirit of superstition"
among the common people. (Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely
Rain: Travels in New Tibet (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1964),
123-125) In Tibet, slavery was the rule. The following account was
written by Sir Charles Bell, who was the British administrator for
Chumbi Valley in 1904-05: "Slaves were sometimes stolen, when small
children, from their parents. Or the father and mother, being too
poor to support their child, would sell it to a man, who paid them
sho-ring, 'price of mother's milk,' brought up the child and kept it,
or sold it, as a slave. These children come mostly from south-eastern
Tibet and the territories of the wild tribes who dwell between Tibet
and Assam.' (Charles Bell, Tibet: Past and Present, Oxford, 1924, pp.
78-79. Taken from http://www.faqs.org/faqs/tibet-faq/ )

In 1953, six years before the Chinese takeover, the greater part of
the rural population (some 700,000 of an estimated total population
of 1,250,000) were serfs. Serfs and other peasants generally received
no schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time working
for the monasteries and high-ranking lamas, or for a secular
aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 families. They were in
practice owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and
what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent
of their lord or lama. A serf might easily be separated from his
family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs
could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death.
(For more details see http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html )

Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese in
Tibet after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the serfdom system of
unpaid labor. They started work projects, and greatly reduced
unemployment and beggary. They built the only hospitals that exist in
the country, and established secular education, thereby breaking the
educational monopoly of the monasteries. They constructed running
water and electrical systems in Lhasa. They also put an end to
floggings, mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal
punishment under Buddhist rule. Chinese rule in Tibet has often been
brutal, however its extent has often been exaggerated. The
accusations made by the Dalai Lama himself about Chinese mass
sterilization and forced deportation of Tibetans, for example, have
remained unsupported by any evidence. Both the Dalai Lama and his
advisor and youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, claimed that more
than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a result of the Chinese
occupation. This figure is more than dubious. The official 1953
census, six years before the Chinese take over, recorded the entire
population of Tibet at 1,274,000. Other estimates varied from one to
three million. Other census counts put the ethnic Tibetan population
within the country at about two million. (Pradyumna P. Karan, The
Changing Face of Tibet: The Impact of Chinese Communist Ideology on
the Landscape (Lexington, Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky,
1976), 52-53) If the Chinese killed 1.2 million then entire cities
and huge portions of the countryside, indeed almost all of Tibet,
would have been depopulated -- something for which there is no
evidence. The Chinese military force in Tibet was not large enough to
round up, chase, and exterminate that many people even if it had
spent all its time doing this. It is worth examining who is behind
the 'Free Tibet' movement. The former elites lost many of their
privileges due to the Chinese takeover. The family of the Dalai Lama
lost no fewer than 4000 slaves! It is thus not surprising that feudal
lords should campaign against the social gains of Maoism. Their
campaign has found an international echo thanks to the CIA.

Throughout the 1960s the Tibetan exile community received $1.7
million a year from the CIA, according to documents released by the
State Department in 1998. The Dalai Lama's organization itself admits
that it had received millions of dollars from the CIA during the
1960s to send armed squads of exiles into Tibet to undermine the
Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual share was $186,000, making
him a paid agent of the CIA. Indian intelligence also financed him
and other Tibetan exiles. (Jim Mann, "CIA Gave Aid to Tibetan Exiles
in '60s, Files Show," Los Angeles Times, 15 September 1998; and
New York Times, 1 October, 1998) Today, mostly through the National
Endowment for Democracy and other conduits that are more respectable-
sounding than the CIA, the US Congress continues to allocate an
annual $2 million to Tibetans in India, with additional millions
for "democracy activities" within the Tibetan exile community. (See
Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in Tibet
(Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press, 2002) for example).

Also, while presenting himself as a defender of human rights, the
Dalai Lama support more than dubious causes. For example, in April
1999, along with Margaret Thatcher and George Bush senior, the Dalai
Lama called upon the British government to release Augusto Pinochet.
While Chinese rule is resented by many in Tibet, people are also
afraid to loose the social gains of Maoism. A 1999 story in the
Washington Post notes that the Dalai Lama continues to be revered in
Tibet, but "few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt
aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the
bulk of his advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no
interest in surrendering the land they gained during China's land
reform to the clans. Tibet's former slaves say they, too, don't want
their former masters to return to power. "I've already lived that
life once before," said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was
wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one
of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the
Dalai Lama, but added, "I may not be free under Chinese communism,
but I am better off than when I was a slave." (John Pomfret, "Tibet
Caught in China's Web," Washington Post, 23 July 1999)

(1) This article has benefited greatly from much of the information
contained in http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

http://www.morrigan.net/irsm/plough41.htm

[JohnTheMarxist]

These things are all true. The Dali Lama is corrupt scum just like the Pope. organized Religion is the worst corporation there is. Their leaders are ruthless and threaten the poor by telling them if they oppose them they will lose the only relief they have...reward in the afterlife. When you live your life in a third world hell...you have to put your faith in a better future and these capitalist pigs use that desperation to enslave the people.

[RedAnarchist]

China is a corrupt, totalitarian and capitalist place, but at least they treat the Tibetan better than Tibetan traditions, religion and society did.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 06:45 AM
These things are all true. The Dali Lama is corrupt scum just like the Pope. organized Religion is the worst corporation there is. Their leaders are ruthless and threaten the poor by telling them if they oppose them they will lose the only relief they have...reward in the afterlife. When you live your life in a third world hell...you have to put your faith in a better future and these capitalist pigs use that desperation to enslave the people.
How is Dalai Lama a corrupt scum? :o

[JohnTheMarxist]

The Dali Lama wants the CHinese to leave so that he can reinstate the old fuedal society that he grew compfortable with.

[Wiesty]

the dalai lama is a man of peace and strong words and he justs wants whats best for his country like ; kicking the chinese out so they stop burning down monastaries and rapeing the nuns.

[Fidelbrand]

I concur with Wiesty.

[JohnTheMarxist]

well i don't want to argue about it or have people getting mad..but if that is the case then why did the dali lama and th emonks treat the people like they were lower in dirt before htye lost power? Do you really think they have changed?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

That's a really excellent article.
I'm tired of folks calling themselves leftists and condemning the Mao's liberation of Tibet.

The fact that the United States condones the seperation of Tibet from China, so that it can return to its traditional ways "free of China's intervention", should make it pretty clear what these seperationists really want.

The Dalai Lama is a reactionary ****. I doubt that any of you liberals can give me proof that Tibet is worst off today than it was 50 years ago.

It is never the best course of action for the people of any given country to be "freed" by American interests. People who campaign for this Free Tibet crap are blind to the facts that the people of Tibet will only be subdued by bourgeois exploitation if the Dalai Lama is given any influence in its government. What else do you think that this guy who was Bush I's and Marge Thatcher's little ***** will do except whore out his country to for corporate raping?

[pandora]

This is a complex situation, the situation with the monasteries was better for Tibetans than the current adminstration, however high lamas have told me that their was corruption of officials and this was not good.

A foreign ruler is not the answer in Tibet, if the people were to elect a leader despite the concern over the lose of voice of certain religious minorities the Dalai Lama would win. He is the political leader of Tibet, but not always the spirtual one for all branches of Buddhism let alone religious communities.

Tibet was an isolated country with it's own government for many years with strong discipline, we can't judge it by our standards, as everyone had option to live in the monasteries and study, in a way they had public education thousands of years prior to the rest of the barbarians in the :P western world, and doctors, so who are we to judge?

[JohnTheMarxist]

RedZeppelin I completely agree with you...the Dali Lama running things is no different than that Hypocrit capitalist pope in charge of a country would be. This is why organized religion is so dangerous..it is one of the main pillars that upholds the capitalist system but the oppressed are too afraid to confront it.

[praxis1966]

The Dali Lama wants the CHinese to leave so that he can reinstate the old fuedal society that he grew compfortable with.

The level of ignorance about this subject from both dectrators from and supporters of Tibetan independance never ceases to amaze me. The Dalai Lama never wanted a seat at the head of the Tibetan government, rather, he was coerced into it by his advisors. He has maintained throughout the entirity of his stay in India that he will only remain as such while the government is forced to operate in exhile. Once Tibetan independance has been reinstated, he has said he will step down to allow for a secular authority to take over.

Furthermore, because I might from time to time say "Free Tibet" is by no means an endorsement of theocracy. I oppose the union of religion and government in any form, be it Judaism in Israel, Islam in Iran, Hinduism in India, or Christianity in the United $tates. To say that imperialistic rule in Tibet by the Chinese is permissable on the one hand and condemn Amerikkkan imperialist occupation of Iraq on the other is not only folly but hypocracy as well. Although, I am quite certain that this logic will only fall on deaf ears.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 06:59 PM
the dalai lama is a man of peace and strong words and he justs wants whats best for his country like ; kicking the chinese out so they stop burning down monastaries and rapeing the nuns.
The Dalai Lama is a right-wing bastard and a rich former warlord. He led a slave society and ruthlessly controlled a peasant army.

He also supports the Supreme Truth Cult of Japan, who prepetrated the Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo underground.

I am not defending the Chinese though, I think they are more evil than the feudal lord Dalai Lama.

[Comrade Marcel]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 14 2004, 09:45 PM


I am not defending the Chinese though, I think they are more evil than the feudal lord Dalai Lama.
I disagree with that part Comrade. Even state capitalism is better that thoecratic fuedalism.

My Linux box has a hardware problem right now, so I don't have my regular bookmarks, otherwise I would post a asswad of links to some great articles from the RCP-USA, Lalkar (Indian Maoist group's newspaper), Worker's World, and Parenti.

I have a Comrade who is in China right now teaching English, and he tells me that most of the shit we here about China from the Trots and the bourgeois is bullshit.

-Marcel.

[praxis1966]

Marcel, I'm not sure if you are aware, but there are these things called logical fallacies. There are many different kinds, including false cause, hasty generalization, ad hominem, etc. The one you are guilty of is fallacy of authority. In your argument you state the following:


I have a Comrade who is in China right now teaching English, and he tells me that most of the shit we here about China from the Trots and the bourgeois is bullshit.

Accepting at face value the Chinese version of the situation in Tibet is like asking a nuclear power executive whether uranium reactors are dangerous. The answer from the executive would most certainly be a resounding no, as I'm sure the Chinese are more than willing to gloss over or outright lie about any misdeads that may or may not have occured.

To use an even closer analogy, you could compare that situation to the one in Northern Ireland. Ask any English authority and I'm quite certain that they will tell you that the IRA and Sinn Fein are the responsible parties for the violence in the area and for the failure of the Good Friday Agreement. When, in fact, it was English occupation that started the whole mess in the first place and Baptist fiction that keeps people from thinking otherwise.

Of course I'm probably wrong. The Chinese claim to be communist, so I'm sure whatever they say after that must be true.

By the way, if you are at all interested in logical fallacies you may want to check out this site: http://www.philosophy.eku.edu/Williams/HON.../falsec-web.htm (http://www.philosophy.eku.edu/Williams/HON102Web/falsec-web.htm).

[Ziggy]

i think tibet should be free. Tibetans should have self rule, even though there will be problems it is their problems to deal with and handle and they should be able to hold that responcibility and not some government that barely considers them people. a self-ruled government is better than a country ruler over another



http://www.meninhats.com/comics/20040206.gif

[Stapler]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 02:44 AM
RedZeppelin I completely agree with you...the Dali Lama running things is no different than that Hypocrit capitalist pope in charge of a country would be. This is why organized religion is so dangerous..it is one of the main pillars that upholds the capitalist system but the oppressed are too afraid to confront it.
Do you know ANYTHING about buddhism???

[JohnTheMarxist]

do you know anything about the real world you idiot? The catholic church is supposdely peace loving, anti war, all accepting, anti capitalist and anti death penalty...IN THEORY ONLY...obviously we see that is lie. The rank and file catholics or rank and file bhuddists may be good people but their organized leaders are part of the capitalist system. I get the feeling that most peopleposting here are 7th graders who have no clue what they are talking about. Either that or liberals.

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 03:04 PM
do you know anything about the real world you idiot? The catholic church is supposdely peace loving, anti war, all accepting, anti capitalist and anti death penalty...IN THEORY ONLY...obviously we see that is lie. The rank and file catholics or rank and file bhuddists may be good people but their organized leaders are part of the capitalist system. I get the feeling that most peopleposting here are 7th graders who have no clue what they are talking about. Either that or liberals.
If that's the case then why don't you make an honest attempt at elevating the level of debate instead of resorting to petty name calling? I just love it when newbies like you come around and insist on telling us all how little we know. I've an idea. Why don't you start the 40,000th "get off the internet and into the streets" thread so that you might motivate us?

[Stapler]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 09:04 PM
do you know anything about the real world you idiot? The catholic church is supposdely peace loving, anti war, all accepting, anti capitalist and anti death penalty...IN THEORY ONLY...obviously we see that is lie. The rank and file catholics or rank and file bhuddists may be good people but their organized leaders are part of the capitalist system. I get the feeling that most peopleposting here are 7th graders who have no clue what they are talking about. Either that or liberals.
There's a small difference between The Roman Catholic Church and Tibetian Bhuddism. Emperor constantine adapted christianity as a way of subduing the masses with an organized religion, as a way of making himself look like an intermediary between himself and god. As a result, the Roman Empire survives today as the Catholic Church. Bhuddism, however is completely decentralized, it focuses on the attainment of enlightenment through careful self-observation and meditation. The beleif that all religion is a negative influence is a relic of the old party line.

Your ignorance makes me sick, you should learn something about a topic before you debate it. You might as well write about string theory.

[Urban Rubble]

It is never the best course of action for the people of any given country to be "freed" by American interests.

But it is the best course of interest for China to "liberate" whoever they want ? Hypocrite.

I'm certain the Chinese have committed many attrocities in Tibet, but I would agree with the article. Tibet is still quite a shithole, but it was much worse before.

[JohnTheMarxist]

The leaders of organized religion are servants ot the capitalist system. We see this in almost every situation, the Dali Lama wa sno different. Sorry, look it up anywher eand you will see monks, feudalism, and the dali lama all together. I never said China was a paradise...in fact I think it is a hell hole. My debate wa smerely that the Dali Lama is a good person. Agree or disagree I really don't care.

[Archpremier]

Religion, religion... Hey! I have a great idea! Let's all convert to Hindu!

[Stapler]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 10:12 PM
The leaders of organized religion are servants ot the capitalist system. We see this in almost every situation, the Dali Lama wa sno different. Sorry, look it up anywher eand you will see monks, feudalism, and the dali lama all together. I never said China was a paradise...in fact I think it is a hell hole. My debate wa smerely that the Dali Lama is a good person. Agree or disagree I really don't care.
How is the dalai lama a servant to the capitalist system? other than a few documentaries aired on television (with commercials) I know of nothing to support that argument. The fact is, the dalai lama fled tibet at the age of four, meaning that he had no chance to exploit his power or opress the poor people of tibet.

Dalai Lama for Adidas!

[LuZhiming]

Sorry, I just had to revive this topic.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAS...open&of=ENG-CHN (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170152004?open&of=ENG-CHN)

Despite the release of several high-profile Tibetan prisoners of conscience before the end of their sentence, suppression of political dissent and restrictions on religious freedom continue throughout Tibetan areas of the PRC. For example, a popular singer was detained in March 2004 because of the political content of his songs, and in February, a young monk was arrested at his monastery for possessing a photograph of the Dalai Lama. Such detentions and arrests have been increasing in recent months, but the Chinese authorities refuse to divulge any information on the status or whereabouts of the people being held.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAC...open&of=ENG-CHN (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGACT500072004?open&of=ENG-CHN)

In January Lobsang Dhondup, a Tibetan from Sichuan province, was executed after being convicted in an unfair trial of "causing explosions" and other offences. The authorities stated that his trial was held in secret because it involved "state secrets", without providing further clarification. He was executed hours after his sentence was passed, without his case being referred to the Supreme Court as required under Chinese law, and despite official assurances to the USA and the European Union (EU) that his case would receive a "lengthy" review.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAS...open&of=ENG-CHN (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170122004?open&of=ENG-CHN)

Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche, a Tibetan Buddhist cleric who was given a suspended death sentence following a blatantly unfair trial and a summary appeal procedure which saw his co-defendant Lobsang Dhondup executed on the day the sentence was passed.

[More on the two Buddhists]:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAS...open&of=ENG-CHN (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA170032004?open&of=ENG-CHN)

April 2002 - Lobsang Dhondup detained on suspicion of causing an explosion

7 April 2002 - Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche detained on suspicion of collusion

2 December 2002 - Lobsang Dhondup sentenced to death; Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche sentenced to death suspended for two years

26 January 2003 - Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche's appeal rejected, Lobsang Dhondup executed




Lobsang Dhondup, an ethnic Tibetan from the traditionally Tibetan area of western Sichuan Province, was detained on 3 April 2002 in Chengdu, "within 10 minutes" of allegedly detonating a bomb in the city's main square, according to a report in the official press.(60) Other official reports claim he was arrested 10 hours after the explosion, whereas witness statements claim he was detained as long as two days after the explosions. He was also eventually charged with "causing explosions" on several other occasions since January 2001 in different locations in western Sichuan Province. Again however, official reports give conflicting accounts of the number of bombs he allegedly detonated, and when and where the explosions occurred.(61)
Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche was detained on 7 April 2002 at his monastery in Litang County, Sichuan Province on suspicion of planning and supplying funding for the 3 April 2002 explosion in Chengdu. He was also accused of planning and funding several of the other bombings attributed to Lobsang Dhondup.(62) Both men were also suspected of and charged with producing and distributing "splittist" letters and handbills advocating independence for Tibet, reportedly found at the scenes of the blasts; Lobsang Dhondup was additionally charged with illegally possessing arms and ammunition. Numerous other people associated with Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche have been detained, arrested and sentenced to prison or labour camp terms since his initial detention.(63)

Official reports on the case claim both men confessed to the crimes.(64) Both were held incommunicado for most of the eight-month period between detention and their eventual trial, and it was during this period of incommunicado detention that Lobsang Dhondup is said to have confessed under torture. It is not known when lawyers were allowed access to the men. Official reports claim both were assigned lawyers by the procuratorate, but the presence of lawyers in court for sentencing at least has been denied by members of the men's families who attended the sentencing hearings. Furthermore, Tenzin Deleg Rinpoche is known to have been denied access to lawyers of his choice, possibly due to the stipulation in the Criminal Procedure Law on the need to "seek approval" before gaining access to lawyers in cases involving "state secrets".


http://www.hrw.org/wr2k/Asia-03.htm

At the beginning of the year, authorities announced a three-year campaign to free rural Tibetans from the "negative influence of religion," and to work against the Dalai Lama's "splittist" struggle. They continued to deny access to Gendun Choekyi Nyima, the ten-year-old boy recognized by the Dalai Lama as the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama, the second most important figure in Tibetan Buddhism. No one has seen the child or members of his family since 1995 when the Chinese government recognized another boy, Gyaltsen Norbu, as the reincarnation. On June 17, that boy arrived in Tibet for the first time.

In response to a World Bank proposal to resettle some 58,000 Han Chinese and Hui Muslims in a predominately Tibetan and Mongolian area in Qinghai province, an Australian, Gabriel Lafitte, an American, Daja Meston, and their Tibetan translator, Tsering Dorje, traveled to the area to assess for themselves the feelings of residents in the resettlement region. State security forces detained all three on August 15 but released them within two weeks. Lafitte and Meston, who was severely injured in an escape attempt, were permitted to leave after confessing to wrongdoing.

During the year, security forces detained Tibetans who openly advocated independence. On March 10, the fortieth anniversary of an abortive uprising against China, two Tibetan monks, Phuntsok Legmon and Namdol, demonstrated in Barkor Square in Lhasa. On July 9, they reportedly received three- and four-year sentences respectively, a report that Tibetan officials have denied. In a preemptive move, some eighty people were detained before March 10. Monks from major monasteries could not enter the city, and the Jokhang, the most religious site in Tibet, was closed for "cleaning."

Prison conditions in Tibet remained substandard. In February the official Chinese news agency acknowledged that "quasi-military" training for staff and prisoners had been carried out in Drapchi prison "to improve police officers' managerial abilities and enhance prisoners' discipline and awareness of the law." The use of torture continued, sometimes resulting in death. Legshe Tsoglam, a Nalanda monk who resisted reeducation, died in April, several days after his release from Gutsa Detention Center. A Ganden monk, Ngawang Jinpa, died two months after serving his full four-year term, and Norbu, also from Nalanda, died almost three years after severe prison beatings damaged his kidneys. All three were in their early twenties. Several monks, arrested in 1998 for putting photos of the Dalai Lama on the main altar in Kirti monastery in Sichuan Province, were sentenced in July and August 1999. Ngawang Sangdrol, a twenty-three-year-old nun, severely beaten after a protest in Drapchi prison in May 1998, had her original three-year sentence extended for the third time for a total of twenty-one years.


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/02/06/china7278.htm

At least six of Tenzin Delek’s supporters were sentenced to jail; two received harsh sentences for associating with the lama. Human Rights Watch called for the immediate release of these two men, the monk Tashi Phuntsog and businessman Taphel, who are, respectively, serving seven- and five-year terms.

“This isn’t a story only about Tenzin Delek, it’s about the entire Tibetan community,” said Spiegel. “It’s a snapshot—actually more like a long-running tape—of Chinese attempts to quash Tibetan cultural and spiritual identity in Tibetan areas all over China.”



:lol: I wonder what the China apologists have to say about the environmental destruction in Tibet?

http://www.tew.org/teselphotos/
http://www.123himachal.com/dharamsala/links/tibet.htm

Or the uranium mining and nuclear waste dumping in Tibet?

http://tibet.dharmakara.net/TibetFacts13.html
http://www.motherearth.org/nuke/info.php?art=tibet
http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publicatio...=32&issue_id=28 (http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/csq/csq_article.cfm?id=00000342-0000-0000-0000-000000000000®ion_id=10&subregion_id=32&issue_id=28)



And you have to be an idiot to refer to the Dalai Lama as a servant of the Capitalist system for accepting aid from the CIA. He found an opportuntiy and used it. When the Dalai Lama was actually asked by a CIA offcer in 1995: "Did we do a good or bad thing in providing this support?" his reply was: [though it helped the morale of those resisting the Chinese] "thousands of lives were lost in the resistance" and that "the U.S. Government had involved itself in his country's affairs not to help Tibet but only as a Cold War tactic to challenge the Chinese." (Taken from the Introduction to William Blum's Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower ) So don't give us this crap about him being a "servant." China has no right to have Tibet, nor does it have any right to continue to occupy Taiwan, Inner Mongolia, and Eastern Turkistan.

[Red Equation]

Tibet has been part of China since 1300 A.D. People who say "A Mongolain ruled, so it should be returned to Mongolia then!" are plain wrong, that's like saying if the King of England is French or Finnish, then the UK should be ceded to France or Finland.

Besides, taking away something that has been there for so long is just plain cruel, and it's not fair. It would be like taking away New York from America.

[RedStarOverChina]

How is the dalai lama a servant to the capitalist system? other than a few documentaries aired on television (with commercials) I know of nothing to support that argument. The fact is, the dalai lama fled tibet at the age of four, meaning that he had no chance to exploit his power or opress the poor people of tibet.

Dalai Lama for Adidas!
Gosh there are so many factual mistakes in this entire thread I don't know where to start.


No, Dalai left Tibet in 1959 when he was 20-something. And he actively defended the interest of the slave-owning aristocracy and the lamas.

[Jazzratt]

Tibet has been part of China since 1300 A.D.

Incorrect, as evidenced by the fact it is now. Idiot.

[PRC-UTE]

Incorrect, as evidenced by the fact it is now. Idiot.

why would you call him an idiot?

anyway the original article is a very useful one, I'm actually friends with the author who's also an IRSP member.

[Unicorn]

The claim that Dalai Lama is a US puppet is just PRC propaganda. Dalai Lama was warmly received in the late 1970s in Moscow. I am sure that if the Soviet Union still existed it would back Tibet in this national liberation struggle. China wants to keep Tibet because of Tibet's strategic importance in a possible imperialist war against India. Dalai Lama wants to demilitarize Tibet.



Tsering Shakya says that in the late 1970s the relationship between the Tibetan leader and Moscow appeared to improve in a dramatic fashion (Shakya1999: 376-77). Regardless of the actual substance of this development, Chinese records from this period generally show a high level of anxiety about such a possibility. They also show the manner in which the Dalai Lama/Soviet Union relationship was viewed in Beijing—through the lens of the contemporary memory of Russian “aggression” in the region. This frame lent greater significance to the warm reception the Dalai Lama was given in Moscow than its substance alone merited. Thus when the Panchen Lama reiterated the Chinese request for the Dalai Lama to return to China in the summer of 1979, he did so with direct reference to the Tibetan leader’s recently concluded trip to the Soviet Union and Mongolia. Indeed, the Panchen Lama warned the Dalai Lama not to fall “into the trap of Soviet social-imperialism and much less do anything detrimental to the interests of the Tibetan people and the people of China as a whole.” Such sensitivity was even more emphatically underscored by the Chinese response to subsequent Soviet commentary on Tibet.
http://www.eastwestcenter.org/fileadmin/stored/pdfs/PS004.pdf

[Random Precision]

Tibet has been part of China since 1300 A.D. People who say "A Mongolain ruled, so it should be returned to Mongolia then!" are plain wrong, that's like saying if the King of England is French or Finnish, then the UK should be ceded to France or Finland.

Besides, taking away something that has been there for so long is just plain cruel, and it's not fair. It would be like taking away New York from America.

Ireland was part of Great Britain since the late 12th century. The Irish had no right, therefore, to emancipate themselves from British rule like they did. It was simply cruel to the British.

Dumbass. :rolleyes:

[RedStarOverChina]

Ireland was part of Great Britain since the late 12th century. The Irish had no right, therefore, to emancipate themselves from British rule like they did. It was simply cruel to the British.

Dumbass. :rolleyes:
Dude that's weak!
The English kicked the Irish out of their land and forced them to settle in barren hills. They enforced systematic discrimination against the Irish.

Whereas in Tibet, peasants were given land previously owned by aristocrats and Lamas. There is problems with the conditions of Tibetans but nothing amounts to systematic discrimination--In fact, minorities have more institutionalized privileges than Hans--Such as exemption from Family Planning Policy and easier University entrance.

Right now this "Free Tibet" thing is making things worse. The media coverage suggests that most if not all Tibetans are against Hans and the CCP, whereas that is far from the truth.

I do believe that the Western imperialist powers have been and are actively trying to provoke ethnic conflict between Hans and minorities---That's what they ALWAYS do without exceptions.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Well, as I understand it Lamaist Buddhism is hierarchical, hence the title "Dalai Lama" (Dalai=Great; Lamas=Priests). The obvious result was the huge monasteries and owning of large amounts of land by the higher-ranked monks.
Liberating any nation from feudalism & the exploitation of hierarchy-promoting religion seems like a damn good idea to me.
Don't get me wrong--I'm no fan of the modern Chinese government which has abandoned Maoism in favour of economic reform and still maintains brutal control over the workers. However, I don't believe that a return to feudalism is the solution for Tibet and it's quite naive to believe the West-backed Dalai Lama when he says he'll surrender any such power he stands to have in the region.
Others have pretty much covered the difference in Tibetan life between now and prior to Chinese liberation. To reiterate for those who still plan on lynching me for being a "Chinese apologist"; While I may not agree with the Chinese government as it stands now I certainly don't believe that a return to feudalism is the answer.
What kind of man leaves when things get rough and expects to be regarded as a noble spiritual leader?
I still don't quite understand where the fault is in the logic that martyrdom is a bad choice. How can a man who had the luxury to flee and whose religious position entitles him to much luxury claim to empathize with anyone whose lost family in Tibet?

[Unicorn]

While I may not agree with the Chinese government as it stands now I certainly don't believe that a return to feudalism is the answer.
Dalai Lama says that he has Marxist economic views and he wants to establish democracy in Tibet. Nothing indicates that he wants to return Tibet to feudalism. Workers are better off under left-liberal democracy than PRC non-socialist dictatorship. Besides, Dalai Lama only wants autonomy, not independence.

[Hiero]

The claim that Dalai Lama is a US puppet is just PRC propaganda. Dalai Lama was warmly received in the late 1970s in Moscow. I am sure that if the Soviet Union still existed it would back Tibet in this national liberation struggle. China wants to keep Tibet because of Tibet's strategic importance in a possible imperialist war against India. Dalai Lama wants to demilitarize Tibet.


http://www.eastwestcenter.org/fileadmin/stored/pdfs/PS004.pdf

That shows that the Dalia Lama is an opportunist as well as a CIA puppert.

China and the USSR were close to war at that time, the Dalai Lama was playing both sides of imperialist agression. The whole USA, USSR and Chinese history is really complicated. There have many cases of China and USA siding with one side agianst another side supported by USSR, then other cases of China against USSR and USA imperialism. And in this case, it is USSR and USA against China through destablising China by supporting the separatist movement in Tibet.

The USA wants to balkanise the world, break up every union so they can control their economic interest through each individual nation-state (where it does suppor their interest, in Iraq this is not the case). In this case they give much support to the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama being far from a socialist acts as a puppert for USA imperialism because he has shown no indication that he would remove Tibet from domination by foreign capital that is present in modern China.

[Unicorn]

That shows that the Dalia Lama is an opportunist as well as a CIA puppert.

China and the USSR were close to war at that time, the Dalai Lama was playing both sides of imperialist agression. The whole USA, USSR and Chinese history is really complicated. There have many cases of China and USA siding with one side agianst another side supported by USSR, then other cases of China against USSR and USA imperialism. And in this case, it is USSR and USA against China through destablising China by supporting the separatist movement in Tibet.
The USSR under Brezhnev was socialist. China under Deng was not. China was basically in league with US imperialists since Nixon's 1972 visit to China (that happened during the Vietnam war!). It's silly to accuse socialist countries of imperialism since only capitalist countries can be guilty of that. It is thus clear that the position taken by the USSR was the correct one and communists should follow that diplomatic tradition regarding Tibet.

[martingale]

This is what this supposed man of peace has to say about US aggression around the world (from Michael Parenti’s article):

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7355

"What of the four years of carnage and mass destruction in Iraq, a war condemned by most of the world—even by a conservative pope–as a blatant violation of international law and a crime against humanity? The Dalai Lama was undecided: "The Iraq war—it’s too early to say, right or wrong."53 Earlier he had voiced support for the U.S. military intervention against Yugoslavia and, later on, the U.S. military intervention into Afghanistan.54″

And this so-called "champion of human rights", unlike other Nobel Peace Prize winners, has never critisize the world’s greatest war criminal - George W. Bush. It seems that the Dalai Lama is against violence except when it comes out of the barrel of an American gun. Face it, the Dalai Lama has throughout his life been a willing pawn for US imperialism. That’s why he is such a darling of America’s ruling elite.

[Wanted Man]

The USSR under Brezhnev was socialist. China under Deng was not. China was basically in league with US imperialists since Nixon's 1972 visit to China (that happened during the Vietnam war!). It's silly to accuse socialist countries of imperialism since only capitalist countries can be guilty of that. It is thus clear that the position taken by the USSR was the correct one and communists should follow that diplomatic tradition regarding Tibet.
Quite an interesting statement by someone who often claims to represent the bulk of the communist movement. It's hard to believe, but it seems we really have a 'dogmatic brezhnevite' on our hands: the USSR's position in the 70s was right, and we should continue to uphold it today, no matter the situation. :rolleyes:

[Unicorn]

Michael Parenti is full of crap on this issue. See this article:

http://www.studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?id=425

The Tibet crisis is an excellent opportunity to destabilize PRC. If the dictatorial capitalist government would be humiliated in the crisis perhaps a workers' revolution could happen. But it must not be led by the the Maoists who (quoting Gromyko) have become open enemies of Communism.

[The Feral Underclass]

I don't think replacing a state capitalist dictatorship with a Buddhist theocratic dictatorship constitutes freeing anything.

At least the CCP dictatorship is progressive in terms of development and education. The Dalai Lama has essentially advocated support for slavery and believes he's the reincarnation of Buddha and demands worship accordingly.

Fuck the Dalai Lama and fuck the Chinese Communist Party.

[Hiero]

The USSR under Brezhnev was socialist. China under Deng was not. China was basically in league with US imperialists since Nixon's 1972 visit to China (that happened during the Vietnam war!). It's silly to accuse socialist countries of imperialism since only capitalist countries can be guilty of that. It is thus clear that the position taken by the USSR was the correct one and communists should follow that diplomatic tradition regarding Tibet.
Let's not go into the arguement about social-imperialism. Whatever we can call it, the USSR had shown aggression towards China. The Dalai Lama sought to take advantage of this aggression.

[Unicorn]

China's Tibet crackdown highlights US rights policy flaws

Mar 15, 2008

WASHINGTON (AFP) — China's crackdown on Tibetan protests has dealt a major embarassment to US President George W. Bush's administration, which removed the Asian giant from a human rights blacklist just three days before the bloody repression, experts say.

Rights groups and some lawmakers were dismayed by the State Department's decision last Tuesday to drop China from its list of the world's worst human rights violators despite what they called Beijing's worsening rights record even as it prepared to host the Olympic Games in August.

As Chinese troops moved Friday to quell the worst protests in 20 years against Beijing's rule in Tibet amid claims of heavy casualties, Bush could come under pressure to restore human rights as top priority in bilateral relations, experts said.

"Clearly the Bush administration has been very, very leery of dealing with the Chinese on the human rights issue," said John Tkacik, a former China expert in the State Department, who feels Washington's Asia policy has been skewed by heavy US reliance on China to end North Korea's nuclear weapons drive.

"So if your only priority is North Korean nuclear weapons, you subordinate everything else to what China wants and that's unfortunately what seems to have happened here," he said.

The Tibet crackdown is a "big embarrassment for Bush, coming just a couple of days after the State Department decision to delist China as a top human rights violator," said T. Kumar, Amnesty International's Washington-based Asia-Pacific advocacy director.

In a move seen by some as kowtowing to China, Bush has pledged to attend the Olympic Games and effectively endorsed Beijing's contention that the Olympics have nothing to do with politics.

Frank Wolf, a senior House Republican lawmaker and human rights crusader, has asked Bush not to attend the Beijing games, comparing it to the Berlin 1936 Olympics at the time of the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party in Germany.

Bush's presence would be akin to President Franklin D. Roosevelt sitting in the same stands as Germany's Adolf Hitler in 1936, said Wolf, who plans legislation banning US officials from traveling to the Beijing games at taxpayers' expense.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Saturday urged the Chinese government to "exercise restraint" in responding to protests in Tibet and called for the release of detained monks.

"We call on the Chinese government to exercise restraint in dealing with these protests, and we strongly urge all sides to refrain from violence," Rice said.

"We urge China to respect the fundamental and universally recognized right of all of its citizens to peacefully express their political and religious views, and we call on China to release monks and others who have been detained solely for the peaceful expression of their views," she said.

But the perceived softening of the Bush administration's human rights policy on China is also expected to draw broader criticism in the Democratic party-led Congress, where Beijing's repression in Tibet and other Chinese rights abuses have raised concerns.

"The violent response by Chinese police forces to peaceful protestors in Tibet is digraceful," said House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi, noting "disturbing" evidence of Beijing's pre-Olympic crackdown on religious leaders, journalists and lawyers in recent months.

There are already two non-binding resolutions proposed in the House of Representatives calling for a boycott of the Beijing Olympics and Congressional aides said lawmakers were preparing a "comprehensive" binding bill on China's human rights record.

"For example, the bill may compel US officials visiting Beijing to raise human rights issues and have officials specially dealing with human rights issues in key US goverment departments," one aide said.

Human rights groups said Beijing had become numb to US criticism of Chinese rights abuses highlighted in an annual State Department report documenting abuses across the globe.

"US policy is not even remotely reflecting the severity of the abuses that is documented in the report," complained Amnesty's Kumar.

The latest department report, released last week, had a 63-page China section describing alleged brutality against prisoners, executions without due process, religious repression. It also cited examples of torture and forced relocations ahead of the Olympics.

The Bush administration is the PRC's best friend in US politics. Obama criticises China more harshly than Bush and has demanded that Tibet receive autonomy. The PRC apologists have a foreign policy position more similar to that of the Bush administration than the Democratic Party. They should think twice.

[Wanted Man]

So, Obama has the same position as the USSR under Brezhnev. Logically, it follows that we should support Obama's presidential bid! :laugh:

[Unicorn]

So, Obama has the same position as the USSR under Brezhnev. Logically, it follows that we should support Obama's presidential bid! :laugh:
If I were American I'd vote for the guy because he is not as imperialist as McCain.

[RedStarOverChina]

If I were American I'd vote for the guy because he is not as imperialist as McCain.
Oh for Christ's sake.

And you know Bush was the harshest critic of China during his first election campaign, right? You do realize Bourgeoisie politician's election rhetoric will have nothing to do with their actual policy, right?

Above all, you do realize that the Bourgeoisie election is a total sham, right?

[Unicorn]

Oh for Christ's sake.

And you know Bush was the harshest critic of China during his first election campaign, right? You do realize Bourgeoisie politician's election rhetoric will have nothing to do with their actual policy, right?
Politicians should be judged according to their actions. Notwithstanding what he thought 8 years ago Bush is more pro-PRC than Obama today.



Above all, you do realize that the Bourgeoisie election is a total sham, right?
Sham? What do you mean?

[Hiero]

If I were American I'd vote for the guy because he is not as imperialist as McCain.
The United Snakes is an imperialist nation. Different leaders have different ways of committing imperialist crimes. You can't consider someone who is leader of the "center of centers" to be less imperialist.

[Unicorn]

The United Snakes is an imperialist nation. Different leaders have different ways of committing imperialist crimes. You can't consider someone who is leader of the "center of centers" to be less imperialist.
Obama is less imperalist because he will pull the troops out of Iraq during his presidency whereas McCain would like to keep them there 100 years and invade Iran, too.

[RedStarOverChina]

This Tibet thing, the more I think about it the more outraged I get. There's just been a racist riot in Tibet against Han and Muslim Chinese in which at least 20 civilians were killed and hundreds more beaten, just for being their ethnicities.

And the whole world goes out of their way to rationalize it and somehow turned it into Chinese police vs. Tibetan peaceful monks.

Clearly, the life of innocent Chinese victims are of no value.

Under these circumstances how can I keep telling the Chinese people that nationalism is wrong? Nationalism would be wrong if they are already accepted by others as equals.

But they are not. They are clearly considered subhumans.

[Unicorn]

This Tibet thing, the more I think about it the more outraged I get. There's just been a racist riot in Tibet against Han and Muslim Chinese in which at least 20 civilians were killed and hundreds more beaten, just for being their ethnicities.
Without power, racism can't exist. The Han Chinese have the power in China. Whining about the Han killed in the riots is the same thing as whining about whites killed in American race riots. Complaints about "reverse racism" are often used as a justification for racism and oppression. It is regrettable that people have been killed at the riots but Marxists must point out that oppression was their cause. Dalai Lama also does not condone the riots so it is unnecessary to blame him.

[RedStarOverChina]

Without power, racism can't exist. The Han Chinese have the power in China. Whining about the Han killed in the riots is the same thing as whining about whites killed in American race riots.

WTF?

You are damn right I'll "whine" if some innocent Proletariat white bystander gets killed in a racist riot, just for being white.

You actually condone racist violence targeting civilians? What kind of a leftist are you?


The PRC isn't a "Han Chinese thing" anymore than the Soviet Union was a "Russian thing". There are many high officials of various ethnicities in China, both in Tibet and elsewhere (whom, from what I've heard, are just as corrupt as the Han officials).

I have not seen any proof of discriminatory policies against Tibetans, deliberate or else. Until you explain how Tibetans have been oppressed because of their ethnicity, we don't really have a discussion.


And what the hell does "the Han Chinese have the power" mean? That all Han Chinese, regardless of class background wield political power over Tibetans? Is that even possible?

Furthermore, is that how you rationalize the racist murders that occurred? With imaginary scenes of ethnic oppression?

Here's a bit of advice: you know, since you are a Marxist and all, you should do some class analysis of Tibet beforehand. It works, I'm telling ya.

This is ridiculous.

[RedStarOverChina]

Dalai Lama also does not condone the riots so it is unnecessary to blame him.

And you believe in every word he says?

This is just sad.


In 2007 Dalai's government (and his Prime Minister) and independence activists met in Brussels where they decided to utilize the Olympics to stir confrontation against the CPC both within and outside of China. They planned this all along with help from the CIA and the German foreign ministry, according to a recent article from German-Foreign-Policy.com.

And hear the Tibetan separatist rationalize the violence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cp6l6yTi9M&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/15/224155/744/780/492483

[Unicorn]

You are damn right I'll "whine" if some innocent Proletariat white bystander gets killed in a racist riot, just for being white.

You actually condone racist violence targeting civilians just for their ethnicity? What kind of a leftist are you?
No, I don't condone such violence and neither does Dalai Lama. But Marxists should examine the riots in Tibet with the same objectivity as the Los Angeles riots of 1992. The underlying cause is oppression.



The PRC isn't a "Han Chinese thing" anymore than the Soviet Union was a "Russian thing". There are many high officials of various ethnicities in China, both in Tibet and elsewhere (whom, from what I've heard, are just as corrupt as the Han officials).
The Han Chinese have same kind of dominant position in the PRC as whites in the United States. There are officials of other ethnicities but this does not prove the non-existence of Han Chinese nationalism since the Han Chinese are dominant. Also the Pan-Chinese identity is a chauvinist construction.



I have not seen any proof of discriminatory policies against Tibetans, deliberate or else. Until you explain how Tibetans have been oppressed because of their ethnicity, we don't really have a discussion.
The PRC has aggressively promoted migration to Tibet for the purpose of causing a cultural genocide and is committing human rights abuses.

The PRC is also letting multinational corporations rob Tibet's natural riches against the will of the Tibetan people. Tibet is in the status of a colony.

http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=983

Cultural genocide should be a crime against humanity and the Soviet Union indeed supported including it to the UN Genocide Convention.



And what the hell does "the Han Chinese have the power" mean? That all Han Chinese, regardless of class background wield political power over Tibetans? Is that even possible?
The nationalist, chauvinist Han Chinese politicians wield political power in the PRC.



Furthermore, is that how you rationalize the racist murders that occurred? With imaginary scenes of ethnic oppression?
No racist murders have occurred. Unless you mean the innocent Tibetan civilians killed by the PRC military and policemen. Tibetans have no racial animosity towards the Han Chinese. If you claim otherwise prove it.



Here's a bit of advice: you know, since you are a Marxist and all, you should do some class analysis of Tibet beforehand. It works, I'm telling ya.

I have done class analysis. The PRC is a national-chauvinist dictatorship with a mixed economic system. Workers have less political power in the PRC than in Western liberal democracies. The PRC is an imperialist state having Tibet as its colony. Tibetans are an oppressed nation and as a Marxist-Leninist I support their national liberation struggle. I furthermore support destabilizing the PRC government and creating unrest there to bring workers' revolution or at least some positive political change there.

[RedStarOverChina]

No, I don't condone such violence and neither does Dalai Lama.

You did, and so does he. But unlike you, he's smart enough to not say it publicly.


The Han Chinese have same kind of dominant position in the PRC as whites in the United States. There are officials of other ethnicities but this does not prove the non-existence of Han Chinese nationalism since the Han Chinese are dominant. Also the Pan-Chinese identity is a chauvinist construction.

So is every other kind of identity. God knows why you are targeting China.



The PRC has aggressively promoted migration to Tibet for the purpose of causing a cultural genocide and is committing human rights abuses.

Not true. Today there are more Tibetans than ever and more literate Tibetans than ever. There are more Tibetan artists, scholars, writers poets than ever. And there are new temples being built every fucking week.


The PRC is also letting multinational corporations rob Tibet's natural riches against the will of the Tibetan people. Tibet is in the status of a colony.

That's what every fucking country does.



http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=983 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.savetibet.org/news/newsitem.php?id=983)

Cultural genocide should be a crime against humanity and the Soviet Union indeed supported including it to the UN Genocide Convention.

Savetibet.org, aka International Campaign For Tibet is funded by National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a CIA front setup during the Regan years.

Nice source.


No racist murders have occurred. Unless you mean the innocent Tibetan civilians killed by the PRC military and policemen.

Geez, What's next? Are you going to claim that no one died on 911, 2001?

http://dailynews.muzi.com/news/ll/english/10064740.shtml

A total of around 20 people died by the hands of the rioters. Some stabbed to death others had gasoline poured onto their bodied and then set ablaze.

This illustrate how utterly ignorant you are about the whole situation and that you are motivated purely by your xenophobic fear of China.


I furthermore support destabilizing the PRC government and creating unrest there to bring workers' revolution or at least some positive political change there.

Get real.

Working in cahoots with the imperialists in sabotaging and undermining China will only lead to a much bigger Chinese nationalist outburst and quite possible lead to a fucking imperialist war.

The Chinese people of all nationalities know better than to be pushed around.

[Ultra-Violence]

First of all JEEZE freakin louise people! ur acting like fucking five ur olds fuck man what happend to DEBATE! god dang

anways tibet and china

To me this is just a terrible mess and a really fucked up situation.
As we all know this whole free tibet movement is ridiculose its nothing but empire games,america and the west want to weaken china and they see this as thier opurtunity. Then u got the lama talking crap about "democracy" and freedom from the chinese goverment etc..Nowthe "left" is stuck fighting ove wich side to chose. Fuck Both of em The Revolutionary left shouldnt Pick either one of those Bastards! We should be one the Side of the Tibetan People and Workers! thats the only side we should ever be on period.

[Post-Something]

I think the Dali Lama is a large ****.

Did anyone notice that just before the election in Taiwan, he comes up and gives this speech about Tibet, and how horrible the Chinese government is. Well, as a result, there was a mass movement of voters who went and voted for the KMT, changing their opinion OVERNIGHT. KMT are now in power. Pretty soon I think they're going to join China again.

I've been to both China and Taiwan. None of them are nice places to live.

[Forward Union]

I support the workers movement occupying tibet,

[Hiero]

I support the workers movement occupying tibet,
What does this mean?