Judas Trot

[Hate Is Art]

What exactly is it about being a Trotskist that makes Stalinists call me "Judas Trot" did Trotsky sell the revolution for a bag of silver?

I saw a user called Judas Trotskariot (sp?) What exactly is that meant to mean?

[Scottish_Militant]

Because Trotsky refused to 'accept' the party line because it was alien to Marxism

[elijahcraig]

Good lord...

[Hate Is Art]

what exactly?

[elijahcraig]

I've never used that phrase in reference to Trotsky, but I think that the reason so-called "Stalinists" dislike Trotsky is because he caused a major fracture in the world communist movement when he came out against the USSR, called for civil war in the midst of a Nazi invasion, among other things he did which can be considered "opportunist". He has the entire Western world believing that Stalin "betrayed the revolution," when any real Communist will tell you that it just ain't the truth.

[Subversive Rob]

At the Plenary Meeting Judas Trotsky made a big show of fighting liquidationism and otzovism. He vowed and swore that he was true to the Party. He was given a subsidy.

After the Meeting the Central Committee grew weaker, the Vperyod group grew stronger and acquired funds. The liquidators strengthened their position and in Nasha Zarya[1] spat in the face of the illegal Party, before Stolypin's very eyes.

Judas expelled the representative of the Central Committee from Pravda and began to write liquidationist articles in Vorwärts.[2] In defiance of the direct decision of the School Commission[3] appointed by the Plenary Meeting to the effect that no Party lecturer may go to the Vperyod factional school, Judas Trotsky did go and discussed a plan for a conference with the Vperyod group. This plan has now been published by the Vperyod group in a leaflet.

And it is this Judas who beats his breast and loudly professes his loyalty to the Party, claiming that he did not grovel before the Vperyod group and the liquidators.

Such is Judas Trotsky's blush of shame.

Said Lenin in 1911.

Judas Trotsky's Blush of Shame (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/jan/02.htm)

[Ortega]

I've always heard (and read) that Lenin was a supporter of Trotsky. It's hard for me to believe that he would say that.

[Scottish_Militant]

Lenin had a few political battles with Trotsky pre-revolution, if I was sad enough I could find you quotes of Lenin praising Trotsky from around 1917 to his death, we all know how boring those threads are though don't we? ;)

But what would that mean? That Lenin still considered Trotsky a 'judas' in 1917? Yet he would also call him a great Marxist? You try to make Lenin out as a gibbering fool

[Judas Trotskariot]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 12 2004, 01:43 PM
What exactly is it about being a Trotskist that makes Stalinists call me "Judas Trot" did Trotsky sell the revolution for a bag of silver?

I saw a user called Judas Trotskariot (sp?) What exactly is that meant to mean?
I picked this name because (1) I like how it sounded and (2) it denoted a meaning of rebelliousness from Stalinism. I do not like Stalin. I know that Trotsky was like Goldstein in 1984.

[Salvador Allende]

The reason Marxist-Leninists call Trotsky a traitor is that he began to betray the immortal ideas of Lenin after his death. Most Trots nowadays want a more open and more long-lasting NEP. Thus, when combining that with the need for international revolution before focusing on your own country....you spread Capitalism and never actually fix the problems of your nation. Trotsky himself felt the urge for international revolution, however, his strategy's for revolution outside of Russia was based on Lenin's idea which turned out to be a total failure when trying to spread revolution across Europe. As we all know, Comrade Koba (Josef Stalin) had the greatest success in spreading the revolution across the world.

Also, because Trotsky caused a split in the movement and caused Marxism-Leninism to now be considered very wrong by many people. His ideas were not too scientific and more based on a dream world than anything else, while Koba's ideas were nearly all unprecedented successes.

[Scottish_Militant]

As we all know, Comrade Koba (Josef Stalin) had the greatest success in spreading the revolution across the world.


No he didn't!!

He disolved the international, he said that he never had any intentions for a world revolution, if you really think this was 'Leninism' then you have certainly never picked up a single book or pamphlet by the man himself I'm sorry to say :blink:

[Scottish_Militant]

And whats with this 'Koba' anyway, sounds like something out Star Wars (that was perhaps the best place for Uncle Joe...)

[Mary Poppins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 04:54 AM
And whats with this 'Koba' anyway, sounds like something out Star Wars (that was perhaps the best place for Uncle Joe...)
Koba Fett. :lol: Stalin does not appreciate being 'pooped on':

[Salvador Allende]

Koba only said he didn't have goals for revolution to protect the interests of Socialism. At that time he gave the US and the West enough to relax while Koba himself helped spread Socialism into East Europe and help spread it in Asia. You are lucky I stopped calling him Soso.

[Louis Pio]

As we all know if we actually studied the history of the socialist movement the history of the communist international is one of betrayals.
After ww2 we saw "socialist" states in eastern europe. This is always used by the stalin appologists as a sign that stalin spread socialism. Now if we examine this we can see that stalin only allowed socialism in states were he had a strong red army presense. In other countries like Greece he totally abandoned the communists and let the british murder them. In yougoslavia there was a break with the "communists" there precisely because Tito had his own powerbase ie. no Red Army presense. The same goes for China.
Now according to most stalinists this is because some mythical thing called revisionism. Were I see it as a break between different beurucrats.


Koba only said he didn't have goals for revolution to protect the interests of Socialism.

But the thing is that we saw the opposite, Stalins paranoia endangered the Soviet Union. He got rid of most officers and even large parts of the petty officers. Also his naive dealings with Hitler made the Soviet vunerable to the point were it took the lives of millions to protect it.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Trostsky was a pain and threat to Stalin's power so its quite simple.

[Invader Zim]

Stalin was mad as a hatter, who gives a shit what his kiddie supporters think?

[Hate Is Art]

while Koba's ideas were nearly all unprecedented successes.


Love it!! "Koba" Agricultural policies where so great weren't they, I guess that famine was just western propoganda? And the huge short-comings in agri-cultural output was a load of western lies as well.

How about his policy of purging over 1,000,000 party members and sending millions of workers into work camps in Siberia? Another sucsess I spose!!

[redstar2000]

I see the interns at the Museum of Failed Revolutions are still throwing old bones at each other. :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Salvador Allende]

The famine was nature, Koba was great, but obviously wasn't a god with the power to miraculously heal the land and control the weather. The people and the land recovered from the droughts and famines thanks to Koba. As for the purges, if you actually look, many of them were not done by Koba, but rather by the Soviet of Nationalities. Blaming every wrongdoing in a 30 year span on one man is ridiculous.

[elijahcraig]

immortal ideas of Lenin after his death

You're just tossing free passes to the far left.

[Daymare17]

Everyone interested in learning the Trotskyist side of the story should read this (http://www.marxist.com/russiabook/)

[Our Trust and Provider Matt]

What a drab read that was. On a serious note though, i don't really care what Trotsky thought of his actions. He was just doing what oppertunists do. Oppertuning? Well, you catch the drift i suppose. And by the way, i love putting an "ist" on the end of words, makes me sleep easier at night, you know?

[bobby]

OTPM, nice avatar.

[bobby]

On Trotsky, I mainly agree with the view of non-Leninists, who say that Trotsky was really no better than Stalin, and that Leninists who support Lenin should also support Stalin on the basis that they are hypocrites if they do not.

[Our Trust and Provider Matt]

Yeah, Velvet Underground rules, you should get Peel Slowly and See, (just 'cause it has white light white heat in it, with everything else) But seriously people, Trotsky did too much oppertuning for his own damn good. He was an oppertunist and reactionary. Woah, "ary" at the end of worlds, a whole new world is open before me........

[bobby]

Do you have the 3-cd bootleg bob quine made? 38 minute version of Sister ray will blow you down.

[Kaan]

Geez, 38 minutes of sister ray? sounds interesting.

I honestly don't see how someone can support Lenin and not support Stalin. Trotsky would have probably done the same things Stalin did. the whole feud between the groups seems to be based mostly around mud slinging. Why exactly are people still arguing over the actions of two dead men? seems like time to move on.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 11:47 PM
On Trotsky, I mainly agree with the view of non-Leninists, who say that Trotsky was really no better than Stalin, and that Leninists who support Lenin should also support Stalin on the basis that they are hypocrites if they do not.
I agree. Trotsky was an ideological anonoly i.e. his ideology meant nothing, I have read a lot of Trotsky as my mother had a Trot b/f who had a lot of his books. I think Trotskyism is popoular amongst those who believe that Stalin was oppressive.

Stalin was oppressive, to the oppressive people.

[bobby]

Geez, 38 minutes of sister ray? sounds interesting.

You should look it up, might change your mind. Unless you're not being sarcastic.


I honestly don't see how someone can support Lenin and not support Stalin. Trotsky would have probably done the same things Stalin did. the whole feud between the groups seems to be based mostly around mud slinging. Why exactly are people still arguing over the actions of two dead men? seems like time to move on.

There are problems even with the image of communism in the west that have resulted from this feud, not only in communist circles, but in the general populace.

Of course, even if there was no feud, it still would have been generally opposed amongst the masses of the capitalist US.

[Our Trust and Provider Matt]

Why exactly are people still arguing over the actions of two dead men? seems like time to move on. Because, sir, we are the unappreciated elite of the whole entire world. And besides that, i am a retrospectivist. Oh, and does this 38 minute long Sister Ray song include any new lyrics or anything or it it just a whole LOT slower. 'cause i can see the appeal in both. To enlongate a song that much would just be MONUMENTAL. Oh, and have any of you tried calling someone a Trot in real life? I highly suggest it.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

On Trotsky, I mainly agree with the view of non-Leninists, who say that Trotsky was really no better than Stalin...
If Trotsky was "no better" than Stalin, then he should have argued that Stalin's policy was essentially good but badly implemented. This is not what happened. Trotsky didn't argue against Stalin's efficiency (or lack thereof) at doing things - he argued against Stalin's agenda. Thus proving that he had a different agenda. And judging from the way Trotsky condemned Stalin for his crimes and oppression, we can reasonably conclude that Trotsky's agenda was far more humane and freedom-loving.


...and that Leninists who support Lenin should also support Stalin on the basis that they are hypocrites if they do not.
The whole notion of supporting people is idiotic. We support IDEAS and principles, not people.

I am a Leninist because I agree with MOST of Lenin's ideas. However, I do not, by any means, agree with ALL of them. Lenin, like all people, said his fair share of stupid things. And unfortunetaly, those were the only things Stalin later expanded on...


He has the entire Western world believing that Stalin "betrayed the revolution"
In the mean time, the Eastern world, who doesn't even know Trotsky ever existed, believes that stalinism is communism and concludes that communism is shit, because stalinism was shit.

By the way, as a native inhabitant of Eastern Europe, I can testify that stalinism really was shit. It was still a little better than capitalism, of course, but not by much.

[bobby]

Oh, and does this 38 minute long Sister Ray song include any new lyrics or anything or it it just a whole LOT slower. 'cause i can see the appeal in both. To enlongate a song that much would just be MONUMENTAL. Oh, and have any of you tried calling someone a Trot in real life? I highly suggest it.

I'm not sure if it has any new lyrics. I know the Waiting for the Man song does. Possibly the 3rd cd's version of Sister Ray has new lyrics.

It is not slower, just elongated with a louder and somewhat different guitar solo.


If Trotsky was "no better" than Stalin, then he should have argued that Stalin's policy was essentially good but badly implemented. This is not what happened. Trotsky didn't argue against Stalin's efficiency (or lack thereof) at doing things - he argued against Stalin's agenda. Thus proving that he had a different agenda. And judging from the way Trotsky condemned Stalin for his crimes and oppression, we can reasonably conclude that Trotsky's agenda was far more humane and freedom-loving.

You're overlooking the fact that Trotsky was viewed within the party as the most authoritative of all. "Administrative."

I view Trotsky as an opportunist, so don't agree on "what he criticized",....therefore, arguments. Sorry.


The whole notion of supporting people is idiotic. We support IDEAS and principles, not people.

I am a Leninist because I agree with MOST of Lenin's ideas. However, I do not, by any means, agree with ALL of them. Lenin, like all people, said his fair share of stupid things. And unfortunetaly, those were the only things Stalin later expanded on...

That's just being annoying. If you support the government of Lenin, as leader of the party, you simply say "I support Lenin" and so on.

Supporting "principles" etc, comes along with that. This isn't heroworship, it is saying you support the revolution, and oppose certain people's opportunism.


In the mean time, the Eastern world, who doesn't even know Trotsky ever existed, believes that stalinism is communism and concludes that communism is shit, because stalinism was shit.

By the way, as a native inhabitant of Eastern Europe, I can testify that stalinism really was shit. It was still a little better than capitalism, of course, but not by much.

I'm not going to debate this as I don't know what the eastern world knows of the subject collectively, and neither do you, and I also don't debate "personal experiences" as they are easily created to justify political positions.

[Kaan]

You should look it up, might change your mind. Unless you're not being sarcastic.


No dude, I love the Velvet Underground. Sister Ray is actually my favorite of their songs

[bobby]

Actually, the song is slower.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

You're overlooking the fact that Trotsky was viewed within the party as the most authoritative of all.
He was viewed that way by whom? And during which period of time?

Trotsky's opinions changed significantly from the early 20's to the late 30's. He was certainly authoritarian in 1920, but in the period when he wrote most of his books (the 1930's) he was very much a libertarian communist.


I view Trotsky as an opportunist, so don't agree on "what he criticized",....therefore, arguments. Sorry.
Pissing off the big boss and putting your life in danger is not exactly opportunistic, is it? An opportunist would have tried to please Stalin and gain a position of power within his administration.

Besides, have you actually read any of Trotsky's books? Have you ever looked at his ideas instead of his personal life?


That's just being annoying. If you support the government of Lenin, as leader of the party, you simply say "I support Lenin" and so on.
A government usually does a lot of things. I agree with some of what Lenin's government did and I disagree with the rest. You'll find very little people who either agree or disagree with everything he did.


I'm not going to debate this as I don't know what the eastern world knows of the subject collectively, and neither do you, and I also don't debate "personal experiences" as they are easily created to justify political positions.
By all means, you can believe whatever you like. You may also come here and see for yourself.

[Our Trust and Provider Matt]

Slower song, eh? I will check it out, and will make a new thread sometime to discuss how great the Velvet Underground was. Personally, i like the song Heroine the most, 'cause i'm out of control. I thought this judas trot nonsense was over with, we're all agreed that he was totally lame. But, this is what we do here at this site it seems, rehash old arguments about old dead people in hopes of what? I'm not sure, but i'm enjoying my stay i must say. Oh yeah, bobby, do you hate Nico like everyone else?

[bobby]

He was viewed that way by whom? And during which period of time?

The “administrative” quote is taken from Lenin’s personal notes that Trotskyists love to use in “condemnation of Stalin.”

He was generally viewed this way in the party as he wanted to send in the military to put down the workers union.


Trotsky's opinions changed significantly from the early 20's to the late 30's. He was certainly authoritarian in 1920, but in the period when he wrote most of his books (the 1930's) he was very much a libertarian communist.

He always supported Lenin, and Lenin was no “libertarian communist.” Actually, he always claimed support after the revolution. Before, he wrote against Lenin.


Pissing off the big boss and putting your life in danger is not exactly opportunistic, is it? An opportunist would have tried to please Stalin and gain a position of power within his administration.

Besides, have you actually read any of Trotsky's books? Have you ever looked at his ideas instead of his personal life?

Who is the big boss? You need to provide evidence of your claim that Stalin was a complete dictator, etc by this point.

I have read Trotsky. You should also know that I am not a Stalin-supporter, by the way, just to avoid being called one.


A government usually does a lot of things. I agree with some of what Lenin's government did and I disagree with the rest. You'll find very little people who either agree or disagree with everything he did.

I’m not talking about agreeing or disagreeing with all policies. It’s highly unrealistic to think you will ever find a completely good government, you simply have to support those that are doing the most for the workers.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Edric [email protected] 5 2004, 01:35 AM
By all means, you can believe whatever you like. You may also come here and see for yourself.
I have been to East Germany, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic and Slovakia. I generally good a good impression although these regions developed as socialists nations primarily in the post-Stalin era.