Log in

View Full Version : To Cure the Anarchists



elijahcraig
12th June 2004, 10:36
Particularly like this part:


Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't
know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing
but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the
movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.


Entire Text:


ON AUTHORITY

by Frederick Engels


written 1872
published 1874 in the Italian
_Almanacco Repubblicano_


Transcribed from Robert C. Tucker, editor,
_The Marx-Engels Reader_; New York: W. W. Norton and Co.,
second edition, 1978 (first edition, 1972), pp 730-733


A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against
what they call the _principle of authority_. It suffices to tell them
that this or that act is _authoritarian_ for it to be condemned. This
summary mode of procedure is being abused to such an extent that it has
become necessary to look into the matter somewhat more closely.

Authority, in the sense in which the word is used here, means: the
imposition of the will of another upon ours; on the other hand, authority
presupposes subordination. Now, since these two words sound bad, and the
relationship which they represent is disagreeable to the subordinated
party, the question is to ascertain whether there is any way of dispensing
with it, whether -- given the conditions of present-day society -- we
could not create another social system, in which this authority would be
given no scope any longer, and would consequently have to disappear.

On examining the economic, industrial and agricultural conditions which
form the basis of present-day bourgeois society, we find that they tend
more and more to replace isolated action by combined action of
individuals. Modern industry, with its big factories and mills, where
hundreds of workers supervise complicated machines driven by steam, has
superseded the small workshops of the separate producers; the carriages
and wagons of the highways have become substituted by railway trains, just
as the small schooners and sailing feluccas have been by steam-boats.
Even agriculture falls increasingly under the dominion of the machine and
of steam, which slowly but relentlessly put in the place of the small
proprietors big capitalists, who with the aid of hired workers cultivate
vast stretches of land.

Everywhere combined action, the complication of processes dependent upon
each other, displaces independent action by individuals. But whoever
mentions combined action speaks of organisation; now, is it possible to
have organisation without authority?

Supposing a social revolution dethroned the capitalists, who now exercise
their authority over the production and circulation of wealth. Supposing,
to adopt entirely the point of view of the anti-authoritarians, that the
land and the instruments of labour had become the collective property of
the workers who use them. Will authority have disappeared, or will it
only have changed its form? Let us see.

Let us take by way if example a cotton spinning mill. The cotton must
pass through at least six successive operations before it is reduced to
the state of thread, and these operations take place for the most part in
different rooms. Furthermore, keeping the machines going requires an
engineer to look after the steam engine, mechanics to make the current
repairs, and many other labourers whose business it is to transfer the
products from one room to another, and so forth. All these workers, men,
women and children, are obliged to begin and finish their work at the
hours fixed by the authority of the steam, which cares nothing for
individual autonomy. The workers must, therefore, first come to an
understanding on the hours of work; and these hours, once they are fixed,
must be observed by all, without any exception. Thereafter particular
questions arise in each room and at every moment concerning the mode of
production, distribution of material, etc., which must be settled by
decision of a delegate placed at the head of each branch of labour or, if
possible, by a majority vote, the will of the single individual will
always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled
in an authoritarian way. The automatic machinery of the big factory is
much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have
been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the
portals of these factories: _Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate!_
[Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]

If man, by dint of his knowledge and inventive genius, has subdued the
forces of nature, the latter avenge themselves upon him by subjecting him,
in so far as he employs them, to a veritable despotism independent of all
social organisation. Wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry
is tantamount to wanting to abolish industry itself, to destroy the power
loom in order to return to the spinning wheel.

Let us take another example -- the railway. Here too the co-operation of
an infinite number of individuals is absolutely necessary, and this
co-operation must be practised during precisely fixed hours so that no
accidents may happen. Here, too, the first condition of the job is a
dominant will that settles all subordinate questions, whether this will is
represented by a single delegate or a committee charged with the execution
of the resolutions of the majority of persona interested. In either case
there is a very pronounced authority. Moreover, what would happen to the
first train dispatched if the authority of the railway employees over the
Hon. passengers were abolished?

But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will
nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas.
There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and
absolute obedience of all to the will of one.

When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid
anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the
following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority
which we confer on our delegates, _but of a commission entrusted_! These
gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have
changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock
at the whole world.

We have thus seen that, on the one hand, a certain authority, no matter
how delegated, and, on the other hand, a certain subordination, are things
which, independently of all social organisation, are imposed upon us
together with the material conditions under which we produce and make
products circulate.

We have seen, besides, that the material conditions of production and
circulation inevitably develop with large-scale industry and large-scale
agriculture, and increasingly tend to enlarge the scope of this authority.
Hence it is absurd to speak of the principle of authority as being
absolutely evil, and of the principle of autonomy as being absolutely
good. Authority and autonomy are relative things whose spheres vary with
the various phases of the development of society. If the autonomists
confined themselves to saying that the social organisation of the future
would restrict authority solely to the limits within which the conditions
of production render it inevitable, we could understand each other; but
they are blind to all facts that make the thing necessary and they
passionately fight the world.

Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out
against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that
the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a
result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions
will lose their political character and will be transformed into the
simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of
society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be
abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth
to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social
revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever
seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing
there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its
will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon --
authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party
does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means
of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris
Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority
of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the
contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't
know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing
but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the
movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.

I really would like everyone passing through this site to read this. If you are an Anarchist or "anti-authoritarian", I would gladly see you attempt to refute Fred's points.

redstar2000
12th June 2004, 16:46
A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned. This summary mode of procedure is being abused to such an extent that it has become necessary to look into the matter somewhat more closely.

From the date and place of publication alone, I would surmise that this was intended to be a polemic against Bakunin and his followers.

Did Engels give a "fair hearing" to the Bakuninist position in this pamphlet? I think it's pretty questionable.


On examining the economic, industrial and agricultural conditions which form the basis of present-day bourgeois society, we find that they tend more and more to replace isolated action by combined action of individuals.

Thus, the material basis for modern authority.

However, it should be noted that the truly enormous factories that were characteristic of modern capitalism c.1850-1950 have "gone out of fashion". The trend that Engels took note of has been going the other way for quite some time. (The invention of the electric motor made it possible to disperse production in a way that Marx and Engels had no way of anticipating.)


But whoever mentions combined action speaks of organisation; now, is it possible to have organisation without authority?

I believe this is rhetorical; what are the rational limits of authority?


All these workers, men, women and children, are obliged to begin and finish their work at the hours fixed by the authority of the steam, which cares nothing for individual autonomy.

This is no longer the case, of course. Electric power means that work can, in principle, be done at any time, day or night.


Thereafter particular questions arise in each room and at every moment concerning the mode of production, distribution of material, etc., which must be settled by decision of a delegate placed at the head of each branch of labour or, if possible, by a majority vote, the will of the single individual will always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled in an authoritarian way.

Here Engels says that even a majority vote is nevertheless "authoritarian"...and there are, as it happens, quite a few anarchists who agree with him. They think decisions should only be reached by consensus...giving each participant effective veto power over the collective's decisions. This, of course, is also "authoritarian".

I think this is word-play on Engels' part...he's gathering all forms of decision-making under the "authoritarian" umbrella. There may be a linguistic sense in which that is justified; but this is a political article and the political dimension of authority is exactly what is in dispute.


If the autonomists confined themselves to saying that the social organisation of the future would restrict authority solely to the limits within which the conditions
of production render it inevitable, we could understand each other...

I also agree...but let's check and make sure that it really is "inevitable". We should not just assume "in favor" of authority "because it's always been done that way".

There may be a better -- less authoritarian -- way to accomplish the goal.


...but they are blind to all facts that make the thing necessary and they
passionately fight the word.

With good reason, don't you think? Given all the horrors associated with the word "authority", could you blame some people for "knee-jerk" anti-authoritarianism?


But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority.

No, I think that's pretty misleading...and I am by no means a "Bakuninist".

Marx and Bakunin both agreed that the first act of the social revolution should be the smashing of the old bourgeois state apparatus and the dispersal of its personnel. The dispute was over what should be set in its place. Marx thought that some kind of "quasi-state" was required for the transition to communist society; Bakunin thought that no such institution was required at all -- that such public authority that emerged should take the form of collectives freely and democratically organized "from the bottom up".

I think it would be much fairer to say that the Bakuninists wished to abolish "institutional authority"...not all possible forms of collective decision-making.


A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is...

This is also word-play and is especially misleading when speaking of a proletarian revolution.

The word "authoritarian" does have a "common-sense" meaning: the imposition of the will of a minority upon a majority through the threat or use of violence...or, in short, despotism or tyranny.

To transfer the use of that word to describe the imposition of the will of the proletarian majority upon the bourgeois minority is simply a grotesque misuse of the word.


In either case they serve the reaction.

Pay attention: even Engels could write bullshit!

To suggest that sincere revolutionaries -- even if mistaken -- are "therefore" on the side of the ruling class (consciously or unconsciously) is a really stupid thing to do!

In fact, if carried out consistently, it would make any kind of genuine ideological struggle between revolutionaries impossible. Who will disagree in public if the risk involves being labeled, in so many words, an "agent" of the class enemy?

In fact, it's a short and easy step to the assertion that anyone who politically disagrees with you is "a fucking cop!"

The only people who should ever be attacked as agents of the class enemy are people who clearly and consciously are that.

Engels fucked this one up.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

gaf
12th June 2004, 17:44
1872 just after the paris commune did he get problems there too?
but i can recognised ironie,disrespect and arrogance.

elijahcraig
12th June 2004, 22:51
RS, you pretty much made the typical anarchist points...I'm not impressed. Engels wouldn't have been either.

Guest1
12th June 2004, 23:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 06:51 PM
RS, you pretty much made the typical anarchist points...I'm not impressed. Engels wouldn't have been either.
Just call him a "dirty red" why don't you? :huh:

Is this what you're resorting to? No need to debate the points on their merit, cause he's just a "dirty red", brainwashed by those damn russians. Tsk, tsk, comrade Engels would be disappointed in you redstar. Here that? Engels would have been disappointed in you! :lol:

As for your sig, why? Have I ever given you a warning point? Have I chased you around the board, closed your threads or deleted any of your posts? I didn&#39;t think so, in fact the only thing I have done to you in the past year has been advocating your unrestriction and defending you when you came up for restriction again recently <_<

Power drunk indeed...

elijahcraig
13th June 2004, 00:02
Is this what you&#39;re resorting to? No need to debate the points on their merit, cause he&#39;s just a "dirty red", brainwashed by those damn russians. Tsk, tsk, comrade Engels would be disappointed in you redstar. Here that? Engels would have been disappointed in you&#33;

His points are mainly refuted, or debated, by Engels. There really is no need to go into a circular argument on the subject.


As for your sig, why? Have I ever given you a warning point? Have I chased you around the board, closed your threads or deleted any of your posts? I didn&#39;t think so, in fact the only thing I have done to you in the past year has been advocating your unrestriction and defending you when you came up for restriction again recently

Maybe I’ll put Enigma in your place.


In reference to your signature...have you read Desert Solitaire? Good book, enjoy it?

redstar2000
13th June 2004, 00:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 05:51 PM
RS, you pretty much made the typical anarchist points...I&#39;m not impressed. Engels wouldn&#39;t have been either.
Damn&#33; I so wanted to impress you, Elijah...and the corpse of Engels too, of course. :lol:

I am curious though: for what reason did you post Engels&#39; article if you didn&#39;t want to actually discuss it?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

elijahcraig
13th June 2004, 00:40
It&#39;s not that I don&#39;t want to discuss it, it is that I would basically be rehashing Engels already stated position. There really is not point.


However, it should be noted that the truly enormous factories that were characteristic of modern capitalism c.1850-1950 have "gone out of fashion". The trend that Engels took note of has been going the other way for quite some time. (The invention of the electric motor made it possible to disperse production in a way that Marx and Engels had no way of anticipating.)

This for example...the "technological" factors, or the progresses in "types" of authority in the workplace...it doesn&#39;t really alter the points Engels made about the permanent nature of all working conditions.


I believe this is rhetorical; what are the rational limits of authority?

This is a good part of your reply, which I must have missed on reading the first time.

To a large extent, this is what Engels&#39; whole essay is about.

Anarchists often talk about "eliminating all authority", and Engels&#39; attempt to prove this irrational and illogical is more than mere "rhetoric"...he is stating facts about the nature of authority, and the way in which "ultra-leftists" attempt to use "revolutionary rhetoric" (relates to Stalin essay, which I posted in connection, or rather this essay in connection to) to cover up their opportunism, or their irrational standpoints.

Anarchists also go to extreme and ridiculous lengths to "eliminate" authority (military, other such things which require hierarchy), and Engels and Marx I&#39;m sure laughed at this nonsense, or maybe they were just annoyed (as I am).



RS, it&#39;s alright that you didn&#39;t impress me...you have a bright future ahead of you I&#39;m sure.

Engels on the other hand is quite displeased...I don&#39;t know if he&#39;ll ever look at you again the same way.

Robot Rebellion
13th June 2004, 01:38
The equivilancy of cordination and hierachy is absurd. Should there be benifits to be obtained from cordination, then those willing will contribute as they wish to such efforts. With cordination there is freedom of dissent. With hierachy, there is no such thing. The hierachy as a prelude to cordination excuse has been a front to facist movements elsewhere. The king &#39;needs&#39; to have peasent labor, else the castle won&#39;t get built. To which in such case this particular breakdown in &#39;cordination&#39; is a fallacy of hierachy of need, and not cordination per say.

In reality most projects that Engals romantisized are capitalist distortions that we would be better off without. Truely humanity favors a more natural anarco-ludite society. eg The railroad was a system by which the system of super cities and factories could sprout up to make the ruling class rich.

Engels himself was no friend of the state and gave many rebukes to its validity.

elijahcraig
13th June 2004, 01:54
The equivilancy of cordination and hierachy is absurd. Should there be benifits to be obtained from cordination, then those willing will contribute as they wish to such efforts. With cordination there is freedom of dissent. With hierachy, there is no such thing. The hierachy as a prelude to cordination excuse has been a front to facist movements elsewhere. The king &#39;needs&#39; to have peasent labor, else the castle won&#39;t get built. To which in such case this particular breakdown in &#39;cordination&#39; is a fallacy of hierachy of need, and not cordination per say.

That they are both forms of human authority is the point, not that they are similar in structure.


Engels himself was no friend of the state and gave many rebukes to its validity.

Being that Marxists favor the destruction of the state…obviously…

Guest1
13th June 2004, 08:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 08:02 PM
Maybe I’ll put Enigma in your place.


In reference to your signature...have you read Desert Solitaire? Good book, enjoy it?
I&#39;m not asking you to change your sig, nor attack other people instead. What I&#39;m asking you to do is explain why. You obviously have something to say, so say it.

As for the book, no I haven&#39;t. If that&#39;s where the quote came form, I&#39;ll check it out. I just saw a quote I liked, that&#39;s all.

elijahcraig
13th June 2004, 09:04
I don&#39;t know if the quote is from that book, I just remember the name E Abbey and the book he wrote which I read a while back.



Let&#39;s just say I&#39;m not too much for Enigma and others who seem to want me restricted again.

Your name came from a thread in chit chat on holland where I think you warned someone and I made a joke. I liked the joke so put it in my signature. Now I feel Enigma and TAT fill that role better so I changed it.

Invader Zim
13th June 2004, 15:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 01:02 AM
Maybe I’ll put Enigma in your place.

Do what you like, boy.

More fool you, I have no power on che-lives.