Nelson Mandela

[The Feral Underclass]

I was having an argument with my project leader today about Nelson Mandela. She was going on about how great this man was, and it really pissed me off. I tried to break it down and see what this guy actually did to end aparthied, which, in my opinion, wasn't that much.

Nelson Mandela, who was born and still remains a Prince, son of an extremly wealthy tribal King, had been western educated and was a member of the bourgeois elite. He was arrested for being a member of a movement and spent 25 years behind bars...What could he actually have achieved?

The answer I was given was that he had a dream. He led a movement and that he held an ideal... <_< I was further told that if Nelson Mandela hadn&#39;t come along aparthied would never have ended.

What it seems to me is that people have become so immersed in the icon that they cannot see the trees for the forest. He became the poster boy for the ANC which has led everyone to believe that this guy single handedly defeated aparthied. He didn&#39;t. He spent 25 years, right up until the end of apartheid sitting in a prison cell, sometimes writing letters that may or may not have inspired people. It also was competely impossible for Mandela to lead anything, when in fact he wasn&#39;t actually the leader of the ANC. He was just a member of the central committee. The real power layed with other people, outside and not in prison. He was only turned itno the leader of the ANC after he left prison because he was so popular.

Conditions are not created by people, people are created by conditions. Had it ont been Mandela, it would have been someone else and in actual reality it was the thousands of young black men and woman in the slums and on the streets who fought and attacked the aparthied regime, many times losing their lives, who should be respected and admired. They are the people we should be idolising, because in reality, it was them who defeated aparthied. Not a rich Prince who sat in a prison for 25 years "believing in the ideal."

He was a capitalist, a bourgeois perpetrater. He maintained class distinction and capitalist control and actually, if you go to South Africa not that much has changed. White people still own the means of production and black people work in them. The only difference is South Africa has a black President, and a 90 year old freedom fighting poster boy Prince god......If I were a black South African, i&#39;d feel ripped off.

[Danton]

Well your not, and specifically your not black. First of all, Mandela&#39;s social backgound has no significance in the context of what he achieved. By no means single handedly but he represented the voice of rebellion on a world wide scale for the South African people..

There were thousands of heroes in that (ongoing) struggle but it was Mandela&#39;s plight which drew international attention, he became the embodiment of not only the national fight against the tyranny of aparthied.. but an international symbol in the larger battle against racism, people from the Us, from Britain identified with this man.. What purpose do you, as a white man hope to serve by assassinating his good charachter?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 02:29 PM
Well your not, and specifically your not black. First of all, Mandela&#39;s social backgound has no significance in the context of what he achieved.
But on the context of this thread it has a great deal to do with "it."


By no means single handedly but he represented the voice of rebellion on a world wide scale for the South African people..

Why?


There were thousands of heroes in that (ongoing) struggle but it was Mandela&#39;s plight which drew international attention,

There were many people imprisioned for the same period of time. Mandela&#39;s story seemed all the more poignant...why? because he was a prince?


he became the embodiment of not only the national fight against the tyranny of aparthied.. but an international symbol in the larger battle against racism, people from the Us, from Britain identified with this man

But that I have admitted. Although I do not think that this particular person should have ever been the embodiment of something so complex. Racism and tyranny exist in a larger political context. Wider than South African aparthied and imbedded in the system of capitalism itself. A system Mandela perpetraed when he came to power.


What purpose do you, as a white man hope to serve by assassinating his good charachter?

A poster boy he is, the emodiment of a struggle he maybe, but to accept him, and idolise him as a great leader for freedom and justice is hypocritical. Behind the facade there is a man who had the same class interest as the people he was trying to overthrow. The ruling class.

[Louis Pio]

I agree wit Anarchist Tension on this one.
Also we have to remember that Mandela could have done so much more.
A big part of the fight against apartheid was also a fight for better conditions, Mandela accepted capitalism and today much ain&#39;t changed for the big majority of blacks in SA.
The reason the bourgiosie is so happy about him is that he&#39;s like Ghandi is a safe "rebel" for them. He never intended to change society drastically by changing the ownership of production etc.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

yeah...I mean, capitalism is bad n&#39; all...but we shouldnt stigmatize those rebels who wanted to represent the ppl, at the same time trying to maintain the same social structure.

As in India&#39;s independence plight, there were many rebels without much attention in the common history book. Each rebellion needs its &#39;posterchild&#39;. Mandela in South Africa, Gandhi in India, etc. The other rebels are never really talked about...dont ask me why.

[Louis Pio]

yeah...I mean, capitalism is bad n&#39; all...but we shouldnt stigmatize those rebels who wanted to represent the ppl, at the same time trying to maintain the same social structure.

I think we should. These people are a safetyvalve for imperialism.
In Indias case they got indeoendence because of the social unrest not because of Ghandi. He had quite good relations with the imperialists.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 9 2004, 03:38 PM
but we shouldnt stigmatize those rebels who wanted to represent the ppl
Mandela wasnt a rebel, he was a rich Prince. His interests was to get rid of the aparthied ruling class and create a new ruling class. The people have not been effected by it except that they have new leaders.

[Danton]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 9 2004, 12:48 PM
There were many people imprisioned for the same period of time. Mandela&#39;s story seemed all the more poignant...why? because he was a prince?


Mandela is no prince, he was groomed for chieftainship but instead chose to become a lawyer... The movement which lobbied and eventually changed the ANC from a token organization into a real mass rebellious force was started by him and fifty nine other men in underground conditions..

You tell me why people identify with his story? With Biko&#39;s story It&#39;s not about status. Princes and kings are two-a penny in Southern Africa.. Some people have charisma, like Che and Fidel they become the movement personified, his incarceration became a symbol for the incarceration of a whole people.. A victim of circumstance maybe but perhaps one of the most inspiring icons black people ever had.. A third world country cannot go from total segregation and virtual slavery to a model socialist society in one small step.. Judge Mandela not on what he comes from, but what he represents - Struggle...

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 04:08 PM
but what he represents - Struggle...
Who&#39;s struggle?

[Danton]

The struggle of the oppressed..

[Louis Pio]

The struggle of the oppressed..

Which he betrayed by letting people&#39;s horrible living conditions continue...

[Danton]

In as much as you claim one man cannot bring down aparthied, you seem to blame him singlehandedly for not ceating some kind of utopian wonderland, shit, these people couldn&#39;t even vote 15 years ago, they had as much rights as a dog.. but I guess that&#39;s not enough..

So let&#39;s demonize Nelson Mandela because he came from a comparativley wealthy background - comparative to the rest of his enslaved race, because he hasn&#39;t performed some kind of utopianist miracle his hands tied by internal ANC wrangling and international pressure from all corners, South Africa is undergoing a process of rehabilitation, black people were an underclass, they are now the working class along with the white working classes whom the ANC did not isolate like Mugabe has done in Zimbabwe. Nelson Mandela&#39;s primary motive was the destruction of aparthied, the people achieved this and he is symbolic of that..

[Comrade Raz]

I think it is important to understand that Mandela was important in the struggle against apartied, and he did contribute to its downfall (though by no means sigle handedly), and we should respect him for that.

But its important not to ignore that he had time to change South Africa, not to create a utopia, but to improve living conditions, and make more of an effrot for land and wealth redistribution.

So he was important in the removal off an evil system, but he has been instrumental in creating a less evil one, that is still evil in principal though.

[Louis Pio]

In as much as you claim one man cannot bring down aparthied, you seem to blame him singlehandedly for not ceating some kind of utopian wonderland, shit, these people couldn&#39;t even vote 15 years ago, they had as much rights as a dog.. but I guess that&#39;s not enough..


They used socialist phrases but betrayed it. Of course he could have taken it further with the mass support he had. But he and others didn&#39;t want too.
Hey cool they can vote, just not much use when your starving and living in poverty.


So let&#39;s demonize Nelson Mandela because he came from a comparativley wealthy background - comparative to the rest of his enslaved race, because he hasn&#39;t performed some kind of utopianist miracle his hands tied by internal ANC wrangling and international pressure from all corners,

No but let&#39;s not close our eyes for his big failures as you do.
People are getting more and more dissattisfied with the ANC because they haven&#39;t improved their lives economicly.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 06:58 PM
In as much as you claim one man cannot bring down aparthied, you seem to blame him singlehandedly for not ceating some kind of utopian wonderland
I think that&#39;s very naive if you think that. No one expected Mandela to create some kind of "utopia" what ever that means.


shit, these people couldn&#39;t even vote 15 years ago, they had as much rights as a dog.. but I guess that&#39;s not enough..

No, it isnt enough.


So let&#39;s demonize Nelson Mandela because he came from a comparativley wealthy background

Nobody is attempting to dehumanise him. What I am trying to demonstrate is that Nelson Mandela was not the freedom fighter of the people as many, including you, are trying to portray him. He was a prince, who spent the years of struggle inside a prison. The only freedom fighting he did was being elivated to a position of poster boy and wrote some letters every now-and-then. He wasn&#39;t even the leader of the ANC. He was just a symbol.


comparative to the rest of his enslaved race, because he hasn&#39;t performed some kind of utopianist miracle his hands tied by internal ANC wrangling and international pressure from all corners

What has utopianism got to do with this? And can you explain the relevance of the rest because I can&#39;t see it.


South Africa is undergoing a process of rehabilitation, black people were an underclass, they are now the working class

I think you should go to South Africa. There are very rarly white people without while if you travel 50 miles out of Joburg you will see what poverty really is. None of the people living in those huts without running water are white. None of them.


Nelson Mandela&#39;s primary motive was the destruction of aparthied, the people achieved this and he is symbolic of that..

I agree, he was symbolic of that struggle, but look at the facts. What was the struggle for? what has it achieved? You claim it was for the end of aparthied. Ok, so the aparthied regime was destroyed but white people still own the means of production, the are still the economic ruling class, and infact that was embrassed after Mandela came into power because, unlike Mugabe, Mandela didn&#39;t want to upset the former rulers, the rulers who previously had supported the aparthied regime. Getting rid of the aparthied government wasn&#39;t enough to lead the oppressed to liberation, and this Mandela should have known that. Or maybe he did and just didn&#39;t care. For a man as clever as him, I would say the latter.

[DaCuBaN]

What I am trying to demonstrate is that Nelson Mandela was not the freedom fighter of the people as many, including you, are trying to portray him. He was a prince, who spent the years of struggle inside a prison. The only freedom fighting he did was being elivated to a position of poster boy and wrote some letters every now-and-then. He wasn&#39;t even the leader of the ANC. He was just a symbol.


This is dead on the button I think. One thing we should respect the man for is that even when inside prison - away from apartheid - he still continued his &#39;struggle&#39;.

From that itself, it is evident that regardless of his background, he is not an inherintly selfish man - something worth of our respect in my eyes.


I think you should go to South Africa. There are very rarly white people without while if you travel 50 miles out of Joburg you will see what poverty really is. None of the people living in those huts without running water are white. None of them

This is unfortunately true. The attitude in south africa (and of the 4 south african colleagues I have - all white) kind of intimate that the Black man is equal... so long as, like Nelson Mandela, he shows he&#39;s &#39;white inside&#39;.

[Hampton]

Not a rich Prince who sat in a prison for 25 years "believing in the ideal."

You make it sound so easy, "25 years in prison? No biggie&#33;" It&#39;s like you forgot what he was doing when he went to jail and what he was fighting for, which was overthrowing the current system of government. Him staying alive for that long was a symbol for the people that if he was alive in hell breaking rocks everyday then they would be capable of the same. And Mandela was national vice-president of the ANC when he was put in jail.

He dedicated his life, despite whatever background he may have had, to try and end apartheid. His background gave him the opportunity to go to law school and with Oliver Tambo, started a law firm and they defended the victims of the system when they had no money to hire a lawyer.

Of course he did not single handily end apartheid but he was one of the architect of what the post-apartheid system would look like, the idea of a democratic South Africa and one man one vote. He also created a new South African Constitution, there as also the Reconstruction and Development Program and the South Africa and Mental Health of Children Plan.

If all Mandela did was sit in prison of 25 years I highly doubt that 62% the people would have voted him to be President of the country. They obviously did not care what kind of background he had, whether he was wealthy or not, he went to prison fighting for the people.


What I am trying to demonstrate is that Nelson Mandela was not the freedom fighter of the people as many, including you, are trying to portray him.

Look at what Mandela did before going to prison before you say he wasn&#39;t a freedom fighter. He formed the Youth League, a branch of the ANC with more radical approaches to fighting for rights, he led the "Spear of the Nation", and the Defiance Campaign which used nonviolent civil disobedience and underground fighting. He was just as much a fighter for freedom than Steve Biko or anyone else was.

Even if he ws just a symbol what did that symbol do? It gave people hope for a better future, inspiration for people to continue to fight what else can you expect of a man who is in prison? Of course he isn&#39;t going to be on the front lines, he can&#39;t be, these letters "that may or may not have inspired people" were letting them know that he was alive and still, in heart, there with the people fighting.

"I am mindful that I am the mere medium for an honour that rightly belongs to the people of our country."

Letter from Nelson Mandela to Mrs. Manorama Bhalla, Secretary of the Indian Council for Cultural Relations (http://www.africawithin.com/mandela/letter_0880.htm)

I do think that one of the main reasons why he did not just take back the means of production was that he did not want to start a civil war. Before the voting began, bombs apparently set off by white extremists killed 21 people in Johannesburg and Pretoria, imagine if he were to nationalize the industries and boot out the wealthy white, they would not have gone quietly into that good night.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 09:58 PM
You make it sound so easy, "25 years in prison? No biggie&#33;"
There were and are many people who spend that amount of time in prison for being black.


It&#39;s like you forgot what he was doing when he went to jail and what he was fighting for, which was overthrowing the current system of government.

I understand that was the case.


Him staying alive for that long was a symbol for the people that if he was alive in hell breaking rocks everyday then they would be capable of the same.

I understand that.


Mandela was national vice-president of the ANC when he was put in jail.

When he went in?


He dedicated his life, despite whatever background he may have had, to try and end apartheid.

One of many.


Of course he did not single handily end apartheid but he was one of the architect of what the post-apartheid system would look like,

A former-aparthied appeasing capitalist system.


the idea of a democratic South Africa and one man one vote.

That&#39;s not democracy.


He also created a new South African Constitution,

Which is there to defend the interests of the capitalist ruling class.


there as also the Reconstruction and Development Program and the South Africa and Mental Health of Children Plan.

There is unemployment benefit and free health care in the UK.


If all Mandela did was sit in prison of 25 years I highly doubt that 62% the people would have voted him to be President of the country.

But you readily admit that he was the symbol of the struggle against aparthied. He was the poster boy, the symbol of the fight against oppression. Of course people voted for him, the propoganda machine made sure of it.


They obviously did not care what kind of background he had, whether he was wealthy or not, he went to prison fighting for the people.

The people? Who has really benefited from the end of aparthied?


Even if he ws just a symbol what did that symbol do? It gave people hope for a better future, inspiration for people to continue to fight what else can you expect of a man who is in prison?

Again, I understand all that, but for what was the fight. The end of aparthied? It could be argued that it hasnt ended? Was the aparthied about allowing "every man one vote" or was it about bringing the country under the control of those it belonged to. Because that hasnt happened.


I do think that one of the main reasons why he did not just take back the means of production was that he did not want to start a civil war.

Fighting capitalism will rarely be peaceful.


imagine if he were to nationalize the industries and boot out the wealthy white, they would not have gone quietly into that good night.

By fearing capitalism, you allow it to win. The ANC should have continued to fight until the means of production were wrestled from their oppressors hands and given to the people. The oppression, exploiation and persecution did not end when the aparthied government was destroyed.

[Hampton]

There were and are many people who spend that amount of time in prison for being black.

I know but hat&#39;s not the point, the point is you make it sound like it was a piece of cake, it surely was not.


When he went in?

According to this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1454208.stm) he was vice president after 1960.


The ANC was outlawed in 1960 and Mr Mandela went underground.....It was the end of peaceful resistance and Mr Mandela, already national vice-president of the ANC, launched a campaign of sabotage against the country&#39;s economy.


A former-aparthied appeasing capitalist system.

What did you expect it to be? Mandela is a good man, but, he&#39;s not a socialist or communist but that means we have to write him off anyway.


That&#39;s not democracy.

So take it back and go back to the old system.


Which is there to defend the interests of the capitalist ruling class.

It also outlaws slavery, allows freedom of expression, the right to start a union, the right to an education.


There is unemployment benefit and free health care in the UK.

"Free health services are now offered at public primary health care clinics and community health care centres."

"Free health care for children under six, and for pregnant or breastfeeding mothers, is also available at these clinics."

Link (http://www.southafrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/social_delivery/govthealth.htm)


Free health care for the disabled

3 July 2003

Certain categories of people living with disabilities will from now receive free health care at public health centres, Health Minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang said this week.

Link (http://www.southafrica.info/ess_info/sa_glance/health/freehealthcare-disabled.htm)

Unemployment Insurance Fund (http://196.25.215.100/)


But you readily admit that he was the symbol of the struggle against aparthied. He was the poster boy, the symbol of the fight against oppression. Of course people voted for him, the propoganda machine made sure of it.

One of many symbols,yes. There were 19 diffrent parties in that election alone running in that race, but, I&#39;m sure it was the propaghanda machine that made eveyone vote of him. It couldn&#39;t be that people loved the man for what he did in the past and wanted him to be their President.


The people? Who has really benefited from the end of aparthied?

It has not been all good nor all bad. There are freedoms for many that they have never had before it also did not change a lot of things that were wrong in the country.


Fighting capitalism will rarely be peaceful.

I doubt Mandela&#39;s goal when getting out of prison was to get rid of capitalism. If you want to judge him on this scale that you would just say Fidel or Lenin or some other revolutionary leader then I think you&#39;re wasting time. This wasn&#39;t a revolution it was a relativly peaceful election that marked the end of apartheid.


By fearing capitalism, you allow it to win. The ANC should have continued to fight until the means of production were wrestled from their oppressors hands and given to the people. The oppression, exploiation and persecution did not end when the aparthied government was destroyed.

I doubt they feared capitalism because they were not out to destroy it if they had gotten elected in the first place. They should have done a lot of things but they did not, placing the blame on one man is hardly fair, if you are going to critique Mandela&#39;s Presidency, critique everyone in it not just one man.

And I doubt anyone said that all those things would be ended when the old government died.

[Louis Pio]

This wasn&#39;t a revolution it was a relativly peaceful election that marked the end of apartheid.


Of course it was a revolutionary situation. People were on the streets against a hated system. Like in Spain, Portugal or countless other places it could have been taken further.
Point is the leaders gave people the impression that if they got "democracy" everything would be honky dory. As far as I remember the South African Communist party also had a bad role in this. And the COSATU leaders for that matter I think (not sure though)

[Raisa]

Give him props for what he helped achieve, but dont go looking for a hero now.
Thats what you get for trying to find the next person to make a statue of. Just take their useful ideas and what they did and be glad.

[elijahcraig]

I think that massively criticizing a guy who stayed in prison for 25 yrs out of political opposition to racialism, and all other fights, is ridiculous...almost shows the stupidity and arrogance of so-called "Anarchists"...little brats assumedly who think they are doing a lot for socialism by spamming on message boards.

The basic thing should be said about Mandela: he fought for what he thought was right, his views are not necessarily to be agreed with on everything, though some are, and his dedication and fight for the cause of ending oppression should be honored. He is not a hero, i don&#39;t believe in heroes.

Pick me apart ****s.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:37 AM
What did you expect it to be? Mandela is a good man, but, he&#39;s not a socialist or communist but that means we have to write him off anyway.
The title of this thread is "how should the left treat him"?


It also outlaws slavery, allows freedom of expression, the right to start a union, the right to an education.

So do most western capitalist nations.


It couldn&#39;t be that people loved the man for what he did in the past and wanted him to be their President.

That&#39;s exactly why the voted for him. Propoganda is very effective.


There are freedoms for many that they have never had before it also did not change a lot of things that were wrong in the country.

Have you ever been in South Africa? If you have you will understand that freedom means jack shit if your starving to death.


I doubt Mandela&#39;s goal when getting out of prison was to get rid of capitalism.

So how should the left treat him then?


This wasn&#39;t a revolution it was a relativly peaceful election that marked the end of apartheid.

Then he should have created that situation, but he didn&#39;t want to. He is a capitalist threw and threw. So he spent 25 years in prison, it must have been hard, but should I support him because of that. No. Tony Blair could have spent 25 years in prison for whatever, it doesnt change the agenda.


They should have done a lot of things but they did not, placing the blame on one man is hardly fair

I&#39;m not blaming anyone for anything. His and his parties actions don&#39;t suprise me in the slightest, and that&#39;s the point.


And I doubt anyone said that all those things would be ended when the old government died.

And they won&#39;t end until the south african exploited have organised themselves and smashed capitalism and the state, and unfortunatly if they want to be liberated, they&#39;ll have to smash the ANC too.

[Hampton]

The title of this thread is "how should the left treat him"

The title should be "How to misjudge a man by his upbringing" because that&#39;s all you have done.


So do most western capitalist nations.

Throw a party&#33; I&#39;ll bring the confetti&#33; It wasn&#39;t there before was it? He wrote down human basic rights down into the constitution it was missing for a couple of hundred years. It&#39;s a big step in the right direction, could he have gone further? Of course, he could have also gone backwards, pick one.


hat&#39;s exactly why the voted for him. Propoganda is very effective.

You seem to have little faith in the people, 64% of the people voted for him and you says it&#39;s only propaganda, that they are so stupid to not make up their own thoughts about the man. They respect the man for what he was trying to do in the past, something that you do not and seem to have no idea about.


Have you ever been in South Africa? If you have you will understand that freedom means jack shit if your starving to death.

Thanks for the lesson but I know, Malcolm taught me that 6 years ago. I don&#39;t need to go to South Africa to see poverty and jails, I can look out my window. Did the poor have free medical care under the old system? Did nursing mothers get free medical checkups? Or the disabled?


So how should the left treat him then?

The left should be able to look past what he was born into and see what he has done in his life, his whole life, not just his life as a statesman nor just his life from before he went to prison and then judge him. Not just on one action but by his entire life. To judge him simply because he spent 25 years in prison and forget the fact of why and what he went to prison for is missing the point.


Then he should have created that situation, but he didn&#39;t want to.

Someone once told me "Conditions are not created by people, people are created by conditions."


He is a capitalist threw and threw. So he spent 25 years in prison, it must have been hard, but should I support him because of that. No.

I doubt he has denied that he is a capitalist, and it&#39;s a opinion if you want to support him now after what he has tried to do as president, I can only give support to him for what he has done in the past and what he tried to do when he was head of state and hope that Thabo Mbeki is doing a better job.


And they won&#39;t end until the south african exploited have organised themselves and smashed capitalism and the state, and unfortunatly if they want to be liberated, they&#39;ll have to smash the ANC too.

I agree.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 05:40 PM
It&#39;s a big step in the right direction, could he have gone further? Of course, he could have also gone backwards, pick one.
I see your point, as I have seen it all the way threw this thread. He is a capitalist who created concessions. He overcame some tuff obstacles and was apart of a noble and just struggle. But he was a capitalist perpetrator with a ruling class agenda, but I think i&#39;ve made that point already.


You seem to have little faith in the people, 64% of the people voted for him and you says it&#39;s only propaganda,

I think people attached themselves to his personal struggle, because as you say, he sat in prison for 25 years. Was he the leader and epicentre of that struggle. No he wasn&#39;t. He was a symbol, and as such was a prime candidate to get the ANC in power.


that they are so stupid to not make up their own thoughts about the man.

No. The ANC propganda machine was cleverer. Like everyone has said, he was a symbol, not a good one in my opinion. Bourgeois political parties are very good at getting their message across and manipulating the truth, which i&#39;m sure you&#39;re aware of.


They respect the man for what he was trying to do in the past, something that you do not and seem to have no idea about.

No I have no idea what it&#39;s like to be a black South African which I assume you don&#39;t either. I do not respect bourgeois politicians on principle. He spent 25 years in prison, but so do many others, for lesser crimes. It&#39;s nothing new, and thus far your only reasoning for me to "respect" him is because he was a symbol. I don&#39;t buy it.


Did the poor have free medical care under the old system? Did nursing mothers get free medical checkups? Or the disabled?

Concessions are nice, but i&#39;m talking about a wider political perspective.


Someone once told me "Conditions are not created by people, people are created by conditions."

Cute....The conditions were already there. He just calmed everyone down and got the former-aparthied leaders on his side. Once in power the struggle for him ended.


I can only give support to him for what he has done in the past

Fine.


hope that Thabo Mbeki is doing a better job.

he isnt.

[Sabocat]

Mandela considers himself an African Nationalist. However, saying that, this is from a statement he made in court in 1964...


Today I am attracted by the idea of a classless society, an attraction which springs in part from Marxist reading and, in part, from my admiration of the structure and organization of early African societies in this country. The land, then the main means of production, belonged to the tribe. There were no rich or poor and there was no exploitation.

It is true, as I have already stated, that I have been influenced by Marxist thought. But this is also true of many of the leaders of the new independent States. Such widely different persons as Gandhi, Nehru, Nkrumah, and Nasser all acknowledge this fact. We all accept the need for some form of socialism to enable our people to catch up with the advanced countries of this world and to overcome their legacy of extreme poverty. But this does not mean we are Marxists.


http://www.quotesandsayings.com/smandie.htm


I think this sheds a little light as to Mandela&#39;s thoughts for South Africa. Mandela worked tirelessly as an advocate for the Blacks in South Africa. For his troubles and convictions, he got to spend the better part of his life in prison. How should the left treat Mandela? With respect for his dedication and commitment and being a voice and inspiration for generations to come. Much like Che.


South Africa may not have ended up like Mandela had hoped, but the vicious Apartheid system ended. The same could be said for Che&#39;s Cuba. Probably not what he had envisioned for it, but markedly better off than before they started.

[Louis Pio]

Now I agree with anarchist tension on this discussion. I just have one small point.


South Africa may not have ended up like Mandela had hoped, but the vicious Apartheid system ended. The same could be said for Che&#39;s Cuba.

If we follow this strain of thought to it&#39;s logical conclusion we end up in reformism quite frankly. Leaders like Mandela can have good intentions but as a old saying goes "the way to hell is paved with good intentions".
Basically not much have changed in South Africa, true they got rid of apartheid but there is still oppression. Also a part of the black leadership have gotten good economy now so they don&#39;t care about the majority.
And about the free health care, it is my impression that the quality of that or accesability is not as good as you think Hampton.

[elijahcraig]

I think we should make a distinction:

If we agree with his ideas, and if we admire him for what he did.

For example, I admire Malcolm X, while not agreeing with his ideas on Islam and Black Nationalism.

[Hampton]

Like everyone has said, he was a symbol, not a good one in my opinion

Laughable. You are the one who is only focusing on where he was born and then of course his capitalist ruling class attitude when he was president, forgetting everything in-between. He did more for the people and to bring forth the attitude and the opportunity to protest against the rotten system then you care to give him credit for.


He spent 25 years in prison, but so do many others, for lesser crimes. It&#39;s nothing new, and thus far your only reasoning for me to "respect" him is because he was a symbol. I don&#39;t buy it.

Find for me where I have said that the only reason to respect Mandela is because he was a symbol. I respect him for what he did in his life, he was integral in the creation of the ANC Youth League, which is still around giving the youth a chance to change South Africa, he started The Defiance Campaign, which at the time had more than 8,500 volunteers were imprisoned for peacefully refusing to obey apartheid laws, became a lawyer and offered his services for free for those who ran into trouble with the law. I respect him because he was the first black president of South Africa, you can try and take away from that as much as you want but you&#39;re not going to take away from the man&#39;s accolades in life.

He only got out after 25 years, he was sentenced for life, he would have given the rest of his life in a jail cell breaking rocks everyday if the people and international community had not caused it to collapse. But that&#39;s not worth respecting either I guess.


Concessions are nice, but i&#39;m talking about a wider political perspective.

Apartheid was nice too. He did not create the perfect society, nobody in their right mind would expect him to, he could only do so much.


He just calmed everyone down and got the former-aparthied leaders on his side.

Did you want him to hang them by their toes and allow people to throw tomatoes at them? He wanted to unite the country not divide it along racial lines and I think if the people wanted to have the radical change that will or will not, should or should not happened they would have done it, regardless of Mandela or not.


And about the free health care, it is my impression that the quality of that or accesability is not as good as you think Hampton.

I never said the system was perfect.


I think we should make a distinction:

If we agree with his ideas, and if we admire him for what he did.

Bingo.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 01:18 AM
Laughable. You are the one who is only focusing on where he was born and then of course his capitalist ruling class attitude when he was president, forgetting everything in-between.
I don&#39;t appreciate your aggressive tone, this is a debate, not a fight. I am not trying to outwit you, merely state my opinion. If you can&#39;t handle that then I suggest you don&#39;t debate with me.

I think you are missing the point, or are missing it on principle, I can&#39;t quite work you out. If you go back threw the thread and pay attention you will see that this is not true. I fully understand abnd respect this fight, I also think he went threw a tuff time, but this thread is about how the left should treat him, and about people creating this icon cult around him. He was just a symbol as you have admitted and his attitude was bourgeois. Although I supported his struggle I do not respect him, simply because he was apart of that struggle. I don&#39;t know how I can explain it to you anymore.


He did more for the people and to bring forth the attitude and the opportunity to protest against the rotten system then you care to give him credit for.

Why are you so angry. Give him credit? I give him credit, but should I give him more credit than all the other black south Africans who fought and died in the strugge?


Find for me where I have said that the only reason to respect Mandela is because he was a symbol.

He was a symbol for a struggle, that you have admitted. Why should I respect him, support him, admire and worship him? The only logical reason that follows is because he was that symbol. Because he spent 25 years in a prison, because he had an ideal. There were many men and women who went threw the same thing for lesser reasons. People who died fighting for this struggle.


I respect him for what he did in his life

Then continue to do that.


He only got out after 25 years, he was sentenced for life, he would have given the rest of his life in a jail cell breaking rocks everyday if the people and international community had not caused it to collapse.

there are thousands of people doing this, right now, for reasons less than the one Mandela went to Prison for. It isn&#39;t suprising is it. Capitalism has created racism on such a scale, something which is so prolific that people can be sent to prison for such huge amounts of time for being in the wrong place while Nazi&#39;s walk free. It&#39;s the nature of the beast.


But that&#39;s not worth respecting either I guess.

Get over yourself.


he could only do so much.

I don&#39;t agree.


Did you want him to hang them by their toes and allow people to throw tomatoes at them?

Or just remove the old ruling class from power.


He wanted to unite the country not divide it along racial lines

I am talking about class distinctions.


if the people wanted to have the radical change that will or will not, should or should not happened they would have done it, regardless of Mandela or not

Possibly.

[elijahcraig]

I don&#39;t appreciate your aggressive tone, this is a debate, not a fight. I am not trying to outwit you, merely state my opinion. If you can&#39;t handle that then I suggest you don&#39;t debate with me.

Stop whining, you whine every time I read a debate or participate in a debate with you. It’s so pathetic. I’m sure Hampton doesn’t appreciate having people he looks up to slandered, and actually, neither do I.


Why are you so angry. Give him credit? I give him credit, but should I give him more credit than all the other black south Africans who fought and died in the strugge?

Through the entire thread you’ve acted as if 25 years (possible life time he could have served) is a mere jerk off into a sock or something…ah, I’m done&#33; That was easy, now I’m going to go set up my evil regime of capitalists.


He was a symbol for a struggle, that you have admitted. Why should I respect him, support him, admire and worship him? The only logical reason that follows is because he was that symbol. Because he spent 25 years in a prison, because he had an ideal. There were many men and women who went threw the same thing for lesser reasons. People who died fighting for this struggle.

Who said anything about worshiping him? You Anarchists are too obsessed with authority, you can’t differentiate between “respecting” someone, understanding his role as a center of a movement, which there has to be to all sane minds, and “worshipping” someone. It just gets really old, and I’m tired of reading the nonsense.


Or just remove the old ruling class from power.

You seem to ignore all historical materialist conditions in the circumstance…one man magically destroying capitalism in a country largely made up of uneducated tribes and small communities? Ridiculous. You have to have education first, class consciousness, and then destroy capitalism. You can’t have one man destroy it magically, as you seem to think, despite being anti-leadership and anti-individuals.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 08:52 AM
Stop whining, you whine every time I read a debate or participate in a debate with you. It’s so pathetic. I’m sure Hampton doesn’t appreciate having people he looks up to slandered, and actually, neither do I.


Then you know what you can do then dont you?


Through the entire thread you’ve acted as if 25 years (possible life time he could have served) is a mere jerk off into a sock or something…ah, I’m done&#33; That was easy, now I’m going to go set up my evil regime of capitalists.

Now I know you&#39;re being argumentative for the sake of it. Pay attention to the thread instead of arguing with me on principle.

I understand how hard it must have been, no infact I dont know that, because i&#39;ve never sat in a prison for 25 years, but I can imagine how fucking awful it must have been. But he is one of many who did that. Many&#33;&#33;&#33;


It just gets really old, and I’m tired of reading the nonsense.

I&#39;ll fetch ya coat...


You can’t have one man destroy it magically, as you seem to think, despite being anti-leadership and anti-individuals.

Is that what I said? The only way someone could misunderstand me is if they were asleep, stupid or doing it on purpose. Which one is it?

[elijahcraig]

Then you know what you can do then dont you?

I’m offended.


Is that what I said? The only way someone could misunderstand me is if they were asleep, stupid or doing it on purpose. Which one is it?

Explain to me how someone who is not a Marxist is supposed to rally the masses to overthrow capitalism.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 09:27 AM
I’m offended.
Ree-sult&#33;&#33;


Explain to me how someone who is not a Marxist is supposed to rally the masses to overthrow capitalism.

They&#39;re not. That&#39;s the point.

[elijahcraig]

You are a fucking idiot.

[Hiero]

Here we have a classic example of ultra leftism, but what can we expect from a anarchist. Anachist are never happy with anything, they always find something to pick one, why ? their not realistic.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 10:25 AM
You are a fucking idiot.
I&#39;m sorry you don&#39;t understand my point. If you want me to be more clear about something I suggest you ask me, then maybe you can be more clear about what I am trying to say.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 11 2004, 10:37 AM
Anachist are never happy with anything,
Politically, economically and socially, what is there to be happy about?


they always find something to pick one, why ? their not realistic.

I dont see what this has to do with realism. Can you go back threw the thread please and read my posts so that you can understand them. It makes your point more understandable.

Unless you&#39;re just trying to attack me for the fact i&#39;m an anarchist?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 11 2004, 08:45 AM


Unless you&#39;re just trying to attack me for the fact i&#39;m an anarchist?
A bit. I havent read most of the thread.

[DaCuBaN]

I think people attached themselves to his personal struggle, because as you say, he sat in prison for 25 years. Was he the leader and epicentre of that struggle. No he wasn&#39;t. He was a symbol

And if we can accept that some of his deeds are worthy of respect, why can we not use this as common ground to appeal to people for our cause?

Given that he&#39;s admitted &#39;marxist&#39; tendencies, I think it&#39;s a perfect oppertunity to &#39;hijack&#39; a man who is well respected by many in the west to our own cause.

So in answer to your question, I think we should try to make the world see him as a &#39;comrade&#39;, and hence we need to treat him as such, despite his failings.

This is an individual choice however: his faillings may be just too much to swallow for some, but what he did do is undeniable admirable.

[Danton]

Absolutley, what bugs me is that a white man with no real concept of what Racsim entails for it&#39;s victims and the utter despair and misery of those downtrodden by Aparthied - is failing to recognize what a momentous achievment it&#39;s destruction was, it was the first step towards equilibriam in an extremely perverted society..

Go tell a black South African that their vote means nothing, that their bretheren died for nothing fighting for it.. At the very least Black South Africa has a voice..

[Sabocat]

Maybe if Mandela had had a cool user name and avatar on Che-Lives, he&#39;d be more appreciated by the "left".

[Kez]

Maybe if he didnt betray the South Africans he would be more appreciated...

before they were poor, and exploited
now they are poor, exploited, ravaged by aids, but free....free to do what exactly im not sure...
The only people Mandela was good for was the ANC bureaucrats, not the workers

i&#39;d like to see voter turnout actually, wud be interesting

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 04:28 PM
The only people Mandela was good for was the ANC bureaucrats, not the workers


And the millions of oppressed Black people around the world who identified with his story which gave them hope and inspiration, but then to you white folk that just isn&#39;t important.. Shall we chastise Martin Luther King next for not being an agrarian reformist?

How can workers be united when they are segregated by skin colour? The racial barriers had to and have to come down first..

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 04:23 PM
Absolutley, what bugs me is that a white man with no real concept of what Racsim entails for it&#39;s victims and the utter despair and misery of those downtrodden by Aparthied - is failing to recognize what a momentous achievment it&#39;s destruction was, it was the first step towards equilibriam in an extremely perverted society..

Go tell a black South African that their vote means nothing, that their bretheren died for nothing fighting for it.. At the very least Black South Africa has a voice..

:rolleyes:

To make my point again would be rediculous and I can&#39;t be bothered. You&#39;ll just have to carry on thinking this.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:21 PM
Maybe if Mandela had had a cool user name and avatar on Che-Lives, he&#39;d be more appreciated by the "left".
Do you have a problem? Are the debate threads on a debating forum getting to much for you?.....What&#39;s your point?

[Sabocat]

before they were poor, and exploited
now they are poor, exploited, ravaged by aids, but free....free to do what exactly

And I agree. The conditions for the working class are deplorable. The point is, the failings of the ANC today cannot be placed on Mandela or what he was striving for. The ANC has continually downplayed the AIDS crisis, has continually done nothing to ease unemployment, has made concession after concession to the ruling capitalist class, etc. however, I don&#39;t think that what Mandela had in mind for South Africa, and what he was jailed for has anything to do with the conditions today. It&#39;s the ANC that has subverted the original goals.

One of the problems in South Africa I believe is that there is no clear radical left group with any serious organization. But we are not debating the ANC, we are debating how Mandela should be remembered by the left.



i&#39;d like to see voter turnout actually, wud be interesting

They had an awesome voter turnout in 99, and to be honest, 77% voter turnout is only about 12% less than 99. I wouldn&#39;t call it a train wreck, but certainly probably demonstrates apathy towards the candidates.





Do you have a problem? Are the debate threads on a debating forum getting to much for you?.....What&#39;s your point?

Nope. No problem. Just a little sarcasm, but hey, I appreciate the condescension, thanks.

[Hampton]

Although I supported his struggle I do not respect him

That&#39;s fine and I have a right to disagree unconditionally with your opinion because I think your reasons to not respect him are translucent and nonsensical. Hip hop hooray.

Why are you so angry. Give him credit? I give him credit, but should I give him more credit than all the other black south Africans who fought and died in the strugge?

I don&#39;t know, ask one of the 12,237,655 people who voted for him in 1994 why they look up to him so much, ask the people of Lesotho when Mandela in 1994 brought together Mugabe and Masire to solve a dispute if they look up to him, or kids with AIDS who put their fates in hopes that the 46664 organization will help them to see tomorrow.

Why should I respect him, support him, admire and worship him?

Sigh, I don&#39;t care if you don&#39;t respect him, nobody said you have to support him, to not admire him is to ignore everything he has done in his life and sacrifices he has made in his life for the people, past and present, and nobody said you had to worship him, that&#39;s just poppycock.

But if I have to list the reasons why I think you should respect him you should have never made your own opinion while being highly uninformed in the first place.

there are thousands of people doing this, right now, for reasons less than the one Mandela went to Prison for.

Yes, I know, I support them as I have always supported those who are in hell.

Get over yourself.

Right back at ya chief.

Or just remove the old ruling class from power.

It was not his intent so for you to say what he should have done coming from a different position than from where he was hen he was president is pointless. If and what ifs don&#39;t do any good, look to what should be done and what can be done given where they are now.

Perhaps if Mandela had died in prison it would be easier to judge him. We look up to Malcolm, Biko, MLK, Haymarket Martyrs, Kronstadt, but they never got a chance to grow old, get in true positions of power as Mandela has. If they had we might not be singing the praises of them as we do today, Mandela had the fortunate luck of growing old and because of that he gets to make lots of mistakes which we get to be critical of him about, which we should be, but when asked to judge him as a whole and to forget, or not even know, what he did in his youth and to expect things from him that we know he would never do, have done, or will do, we are not giving a fair assessment of the man and his life.

[The Feral Underclass]

I&#39;m not going to reply fully to your post right now. But I just want to say to you Hampton, I have nothing against you. I respect your opinion and I don&#39;t want to have an internet fall out with you. It is wrong for me to say I don&#39;t admire the guy for what he went threw, I do admire him for his sacrifice. For me however, I find it difficult to bestow so much adulation on bourgeois politicians. Maybe that&#39;s just me being over sensitive and I should work on that and I thank you for your posts, they have been helpful and informative.

Disgustapated, I am sorry if I seemed condescending, I hope from past conversations that you realise that wasn&#39;t my intention.

[Sabocat]

Thanks for that. No problem here mate. Forgotten.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 03:40 PM

Someone once told me "Conditions are not created by people, people are created by conditions."

Then aside of nature maybe, what created our conditions?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 09:57 PM
That&#39;s fine and I have a right to disagree unconditionally with your opinion because I think your reasons to not respect him are translucent and nonsensical. Hip hop hooray
Not translucent you mean :P

I don&#39;t respect him because he is a capitalist who&#39;s interest was to maintain a ruling class agenda.


I don&#39;t know, ask one of the 12,237,655 people who voted for him in 1994 why they look up to him so much, ask the people of Lesotho when Mandela in 1994 brought together Mugabe and Masire to solve a dispute if they look up to him, or kids with AIDS who put their fates in hopes that the 46664 organization will help them to see tomorrow.

You didn&#39;t answer my question.

I will answer your statement though. I think that people supported him because he was the symbol of the struggle against aparthied.

The context of this thread was how do we, as the left, treat Mandela.


to not admire him is to ignore everything he has done in his life and sacrifices he has made in his life for the people

I don&#39;t ignore those facts. I dont know how I can say that any differently for you to understand.


But if I have to list the reasons why I think you should respect him you should have never made your own opinion while being highly uninformed in the first place.

What did I get wrong?


It was not his intent so for you to say what he should have done coming from a different position than from where he was hen he was president is pointless.

That is the basis for the lefts attack on him.


If and what ifs don&#39;t do any good, look to what should be done and what can be done given where they are now.

This is an internet message board, designed for the purpose of debate.


Kronstadt

The others I have problems with also. This however, is completely out of context. The Kronstadt workers were fighting in a revolution to regain workers control.


we are not giving a fair assessment of the man and his life.

I undrestand his struggle, I understand his sacrifices, but in the real world, his actions have not elevated the South African working class. In many aspects they have been made worse and they are still exploited and oppressed by a system Mandela supported.

[Hampton]

Not translucent you mean

Translucent in the sense of being clear and see through.


The context of this thread was how do we, as the left, treat Mandela.

And I&#39;ve answered it twice already. Want me to write an essay?


The others I have problems with also. This however, is completely out of context. The Kronstadt workers were fighting in a revolution to regain workers control.

It is in context, I was commenting that all of these people dies before they got to get into true positions of power to effect millions of lives such as Mandela did, and because of that it is easy to say that they did good and praise them because they did not have the chance to fuck up and give us something to hate them for.

The comparison is this, if they had regained workers control and then when in that position of power decided to do things that 85 years later the left doesn?t like they would be in the same position that Mandela is in today, however, since they or Malcolm or MLK never got that chance it?s easier to say they were good and great and have a parade and all this other stuff.

And if they did get that chance and did say when the route that Mandela did would they be treated the same way? Would people not care what they originally fought for and say they did this and this and throw it out the window and say when he he or they were in power they did this and this fuck em.

Or would it be the other way? Would we recognize what they did to bring down the old system, the corrupt, oppressive system of old, thank them for what they did, respect it and appreciate it and recognize that they have to deal with real life and some of the things that we think they could have done could not have been done, not because they might not have wanted them to happen ,but because the country wasn?t ready for it and in ten or twenty years they might be able to take that step. And that when they have to take two bad things to get one advance we can understand that and support the final outcome.