Am I a communist or a socialist?

[Frederick_Engles]

I used to think i was a communist, then i read today that under communism there is no state, which kind of confused me as i thought it was just a government that was run by the people with all public service etc., but it turns out it is actually anarchism :blink: . Am i a socialist for thinking that the workers should own the means of production and so on, or am i a communist? Be nice please!

Joe

[Hate Is Art]

Hmmmm, If you don't completly agree with the demolition of the state I would suggest Socialist!

[James]

Simple. You are left wing.

Don't let names and labels distract you mate.

[DaCuBaN]

Considering a communist is a socialist, if you must brand yourself simply call yourself the latter.


Don't let names and labels distract you mate.

Never submit to another mans ideology either - make up your own mind.

[James]

Never submit to another mans ideology either - make up your own mind.



Don't listen to him!



(joke...)

[Hate Is Art]

Communist isn't Socialist! ;)

[DaCuBaN]

Communism is a socialist ideology. If you can disprove that you are a better man than I.

[VincentValentine]

Communism and socialism is not the same thing.

Socialism is the transitional phase from capitalism to communism.

[DaCuBaN]

Communism is a socialist ideology

can be held concurrently to


Socialism is the transitional phase from capitalism to communism

I've never said that socialism = communism or the inverse, but it's perfectly valid to assert that Communism is a socialist ideology.... because it is!

[VincentValentine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 10:22 PM
Communism and socialism is not the same thing.

Socialism is the transitional phase from capitalism to communism.
Communism is further left wing than socialism.

[Individual]

Considering a communist is a socialist, if you must brand yourself simply call yourself the latter.

Let me ask you this...

Is Michael Jackson African American or Caucasion? :unsure:

What is the difference between communism and socialism?" (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/commievssoc.html)

What is the difference between socialism and communism? (http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm) ...MarxMail.org

What are the differences? (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/1903)

I may be a communist and not a socialist. And I may be a socialist and not a communist.

I am not necessarily both, therefore they are different. The differences may not be extreme, but there are surely differences.

Socialist: From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds.
Communist: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Sure socialism may be the transition period, but does that make it communism?

When making spaghetti; you would not call the noodles and sauce individually spaghetti. Spaghetti would be the final product.

Some socialists and socialist nations do not wish to come upon communism, and the order of "business" is surely different.

[DaCuBaN]

When making spaghetti; you would not call the noodles and sauce individually spaghetti. Spaghetti would be the final product

Eloquent analogy, and this is what I've been trying to point out (despite the fact that everyone is taking it the wrong way)

Socialism to me is what is traditionally refered to as 'the left' - the old l-r scale has been shown as hugely flawed, and as such I try to avoid using it.

So Socialism is Pasta, Communism is spaghetti, State Capitalism is tagliatelli etc etc

They are sub categories if they are categories at all.

Or how about we avoid all the confusion and just say what we think rather than hiding behind names ;)

[redstar2000]

You may find these two items helpful...

What is Socialism? An Attempt at a Brief Definition (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082900868&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

What is Communism? A Brief Definition (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082898978&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[DaCuBaN]

I have to laugh at that rs...

Socialism an attempt :lol:

Noone really knows do they? We all use the word but ask someone to put a firm definition down and you'll get a peculiar look...

There is one quote within it that I'd like to pay specific attention to, and one you discounted quite quickly....


'Socialism' without any clarfying prefix or suffix means to me a society run for the people

This isn't particularly well phrased, but with a little bit of tweaking...


'Socialism' without any clarfying prefix or suffix means to me a liberal society with public ownership of the means of production, and with the intent to improve the quality of life for all

In other words, it's a broad definition - hence why you yourself said you had such difficulty in pinning it down. I believe it to be a blanket term that covers communism, anarchism, and the various smaller strains of socialist ideologies.

I&#39;m apparently alone on that thought <_< but it does seem to make some sense

Both articles are, of course, up to your usual standard :redstar2000:

[Monty Cantsin]

read state and revolution by Lenin - its spose to be a pretty good book on the marxists thoery of a state.

[Mike Fakelastname]

Socialism is a system in which a state exists for the purpose of providing public services for the masses. In socialism, workers control all major means of production through democratically run unions/soviets. While not entirely smashing the class system, socialism creates a large middle class, and power is taken from the hands of the minority and placed in the hands of the majority.

From what you said, it would appear you are a socialist. But it also seems that you have anarchy confused with communism, let me try to clear that up also.

Communism: Can also be called Scientific Socialism, Communists believe that a transitory phase between communism and capitalism is necessary, and that phase is socialism.

Anarchy: Anarchists believe that a transitory phase between communism and capitalism is not necessary, and that the state should be smashed entirely during the revolution.

[Wenty]

read state and revolution by Lenin - its spose to be a pretty good book on the marxists thoery of a state.

No, its appalling&#33;

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 07:18 PM

read state and revolution by Lenin - its spose to be a pretty good book on the marxists thoery of a state.

No, its appalling&#33;
My sentiments exactly.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 09:28 AM
read state and revolution by Lenin -
You know what makes me pissed? I know I can very well probably find this on the internet, but any time I go to the library and look for a book by Lenin or Trotsky or something like that, they dont have one. They got books people made about Lenin or Trotsky.

[Raisa]

Isnt it like, communism is a kind of socialism.
Revolutionary Proliterian Socialism.
words&#33; words&#33; words&#33;

[DaCuBaN]

They got books people made about Lenin or Trotsky

I may be assuming, but if you are in the US then you are simply experiencing the states determination to rewrite history.


Isnt it like, communism is a kind of socialism.
Revolutionary Proliterian Socialism.
words&#33; words&#33; words&#33;

I couldn&#39;t agree more to this sentiment. There are certain qualities I look for in people I associate with - reason, altruism - everything else is just elitism in my eyes. The only reason I&#39;ve ever tried to define one way or the other is because some people have real difficulties looking outside the box - everyone must fit into one pigeonhole or another; life is black and white.

You see where I&#39;m going ;)

[Comrade Clint]

Does Fidel let people leave Cuba if they please? i was in a fight with my step dad about it and i need to know with some sources if u could sirs.

[Mike Fakelastname]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 9 2004, 10:18 PM
Does Fidel let people leave Cuba if they please? i was in a fight with my step dad about it and i need to know with some sources if u could sirs.
He used to, before the whole Bay of Pigs fiasco... Now he has a limit set of the number of people who can legally leave each year.

[The idealist]

Communisme is not socialisme, but it follows the same road.

Socialisme: Follow the red brick road till you get a socialist state, then stop.
Communisme: Follow the red brick road till you get to a socialist state, then continue till you get to communism.

Rule of the road: Stick to the left.

I have one small problem with understanding the final step of communism. If the state is abolished, don&#39;t we end up with anarky?

If people want to fight for the common good, how will they know what way to fight?

And if the socialist state is abolished, how will we stop powerhungry opportunists from rallying people into a faschist state?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 10:22 PM
Communism and socialism is not the same thing.

Socialism is the transitional phase from capitalism to communism.
Communism and socialism is not the same thing.

No, they are not, communism, is a complex socialist ideology.


Socialism is the transitional phase from capitalism to communism.

Only Marxists think that, and not even all of them. Not to mention that they are wrong. Socialism has existed in one form or another sinse long before the invention of the communist ideology. How can an idea like socialism which is age old be tied down by an ideology which has only been around 160 years?

[VincentValentine]

I am not a semi-arse socialist, I am a far left communist, im not the spanish government type socialist, I am true marxist communist.

Dont turn your opinions into supposed facts, what you think is right or wrong is not a fact.

Marxism is the best possibility (opinion, not fact). So dont go saying "Not to mention that they are wrong."


Communism is further left-wing than Socialism.

[DaCuBaN]

If the state is abolished, don&#39;t we end up with anarkyIf the state is abolished, don&#39;t we end up with anarky?

The society that Anarchists look for does not really differ (to the best of my knowledge) from that which Communists advocate. The only fundamental difference is how this should be attained. Whilst communists accept the analogy you proposed, the anarchist rejects that any intermediate stage is reguired.

Simply put they view the path as Capitalism->revolt->Anarchism

Hence I find it mildly amusing when someone seriously puts down Anarcho-Communism. :lol:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:13 AM
I am not a semi-arse socialist, I am a far left communist, im not the spanish government type socialist, I am true marxist communist.

Dont turn your opinions into supposed facts, what you think is right or wrong is not a fact.

Marxism is the best possibility (opinion, not fact). So dont go saying "Not to mention that they are wrong."


Communism is further left-wing than Socialism.
I am not a semi-arse socialist

No, your a full blown idiot ehh?

I am a far left communist

How nice.

im not the spanish government type socialist

what ever

I am true marxist communist.

And probably some 12 year old kind who doesnt yet understand what Marxism and socialism actually are. The latter you have already proved.

Dont turn your opinions into supposed facts

No it is a fact, socialism has existed in different forms for thousands of years. Karl Marx & Fredrick Engels wrote the communist manifesto in 1848. The idea that the dictatorship of the Proletariat is the only socialist system is bullshit, and that "socialism is only a phase before communism" is revisionist crap too. I can name you several socialist systems which exist other than the incredibly vauge description of the "dictatorship of the proletariat", which some of the better informed Marxists choose to give. Try two for starters co-operative, democratic socialism, co-operatives existed in actual working models about 20 years before Marx even wrote the communist manifesto, and they are nothing like this supposed "transitional phase", which ignorant Marxists cluck about wildly.

what you think is right or wrong is not a fact.

You see mate, everything I have told you is fact, these other systems do exist, they are socialist and they are nothing like the dictatorship of the proletariat. So Marxists are wrong to label socialism as such. Get over it.

Communism is further left-wing than Socialism.

The most ignorant statement I have heard on this site, and considering we occasionally get Nazi trash posting their filth thats quite an achievement.

[Comrade Clint]

How come nobody ever talks about von hegel...the man that inspired marx and the one who pretty much had this whole philosophy. Is it just because marx made it into a final copy with the manifesto?

[Invader Zim]

No one ever talks of Saint Simon either... its wierd I know. Its because not enough people know who Marx predecessors were, I suppose its just not that influencial to modern leftism.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Marx was heavily critical of hegel, to suggest that hegel came up with most Marx&#39;s theories is absurd.

[Forward Union]

Well, I was told it was like this:

Communism is like fitting a large square peg in a small round hole.

Socialism is the process of cutting the hole so it fits the square peg.

But to be more specific i found a short definition of Socialism in a book which reads: "Socialism: Government wherein production and distribution of goods are determined by equity rather than market principles"

[redstarshining]

It would help to avoid a lot of misunderstandings if people refered to marxist socialism ( the transitional period between capitalism and communism, as defined in the communist manifesto ) by its actual name "scientific socialism".

[mov.julio26]

is this a fair assesment of socialism?
"More private property for use and enjoyment. No private property for oppression and exploitation. That’s socialism."-Huberman and Sweezy, "Introduction to Socialism," Monthly Review
http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

[Zingu]

A Socialist is one who does not understand the "lines of march" in progression of society&#39;s reality and history. Unlike a Communist, or a &#39;Scientific Socialist" who can analyze with class antagnoisms and use theory to guide his actions and is not blinded by reactionary values.


And Lenin&#39;s "State and Revolution" is an excellent book to understand the Marxist conception of the state...and I&#39;m not even a Leninist, but he gives a great definition of what the state is - a product of class antagonisms, which is why the state will exist under Socialism...no matter what the Anarchists do.