The nihilistic argument for socialism

[honest intellectual]

Several people have posted here - I forget who - saying that they are socialists because suffering and injustice makes them feel bad and they want to stop it so that they'll feel better. That's simple enough and very understandable.

It is important to note that this nihilistic view is fundamentally egocentric. It is not an attempt to make others feel better, but to make oneself feel better.

Now, the flaw in the argument is this:
You are small. The world is big. You cannot change the world, but you can change yourself. So, rather than fighting the injustice and inequality in the world, would it not be better for nihilists to either ignore it or to change themselves so they're not bothered by it?

This post has been lacking in academic credentials so I'll name-check Rene Descartes, who, in the 'Discourse on Method' said,
"My third maxim was to conquer myself rather than fortune and to change my desires rather than the order of the world."
Lao Tze says something similar in 'Tao Te Ching', which I don't have here and can't quote directly from. The thrust of it is that if someone desires something, it is easier for them to alter their desires to meet what they already have rather than the other way around.

[redstar2000]

Now, the flaw in the argument is this: You are small. The world is big. You cannot change the world, but you can change yourself.

That's not a flaw.

It's quite true that one person cannot "change the world". But if large groups of people agree on a change, then it not only can be done but has been done!

Many times.

The idea of "changing oneself" to "accept things as they are" is strongly associated with old "eastern" religions and a generally passive attitude towards life.

Westerners mostly gave up on that approach to things a good five centuries ago; easterners are still in the process of giving it up but have made significant progress.

Why should we not have a world "nearer to the heart's desire"?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Vinny Rafarino]

It is important to note that this nihilistic view is fundamentally egocentric.


What exactly is nihilistic about it?

Depending on how you are using the term nihilistic, it could either mean that an individual believes that everything, including existence itself, is meaningless or it could mean that the individual feels that society is so bad and beyond repair that the best option is to completely destroy it; without attempting to rebuild it for the fear it will end up the very same as it was prior to its destruction.

I fail to see how either of these fit into your theory.

Furtherore, I fail to see how the nihilist individual, or even the individual you have mentioned above (the individual that feels great pain from the misfortune of others) can be considered to be egocentric. We will start with the nihilist.

The nihilist by definition believes in nothing and finds all life, actions and thought to be useless..including their own ego.

You could possibly argue that a socially minded individual who wants to end massive suffering to ease their own mind is egocentric however you would have to ignore the simple fact that the reason these emotions are present is that they are deeply disturbed by to suffering of the many, which is the root of their distress.

If these people were acting in an egocentric manner, they never would have become concerned with the suffereing of others in the first place, as it does not pertain to their own lives, therefore making it impossible for an individual such as you described to be an egoist.

[socialistfuture]

Lenin is sometimes talked of as being nihilistic . Some say you must set the world a light and the new world will be born from the ashes. Some nihilists subscribe to that idea. Some say the state must be destroyed at any cost, while others seek to refrom the state (reformists instead of revolutionaries?). People have quite different ideas of how the change will appear and what an idea society is and what is possible.

I think Nihilism can be compatable with socialism. But is a point where things get difficult, rule, order.. the state. Some socialists now belive the state has too much power and not enough accountability leading some to think that power will always be abused. Personally I dont know. Nihilism is worth learning about alongside Socialist literature.

[DaCuBaN]

It is important to note that this nihilistic view is fundamentally egocentric. It is not an attempt to make others feel better, but to make oneself feel better.



Now, the flaw in the argument is this:
You are small. The world is big. You cannot change the world, but you can change yourself. So, rather than fighting the injustice and inequality in the world, would it not be better for nihilists to either ignore it or to change themselves so they're not bothered by it?


By taking these two statements side by side we can make an interesting comparison. Although the intent is initally egocentric, when one reaches the point where the decision outlined in the second quote must be made as to whether to try and change the world or change yourself, it effectively cancels out the egotestical part, as it is evident that the fight is almost futile.

In effect a nihilistic socialist is an oxymoron: helping others in this way to help yourself in the end results in chaning yourself in to someone who truly does wish to help

Or at least that's my take on it ;)

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by honest [email protected] 8 2004, 09:58 PM
Several people have posted here - I forget who - saying that they are socialists because suffering and injustice makes them feel bad and they want to stop it so that they'll feel better.
That was me, although that wasn't exactly what I was getting at. To see someone starve emotionally pains me, not through choice or by understanding, but simply by reflex.


It is important to note that this nihilistic view is fundamentally egocentric. It is not an attempt to make others feel better, but to make oneself feel better

Why is that wrong?


You are small. The world is big. You cannot change the world,

I don't propose to change the world by myself, neither should anyone else.


but you can change yourself.

What does that mean? Change to what?


than fighting the injustice and inequality in the world, would it not be better for nihilists to either ignore it or to change themselves so they're not bothered by it?

That would involve lying to yourself and I for one can't actually do that. I've tried, it didn't work.

If being apart of a revolutionary movement is, essentially, what you are and what you want be be, why would you want to change to something else?


it is easier for them to alter their desires to meet what they already have rather than the other way around.

How incredibly boring :P

Being apart of something does not necessarily mean that you will always get what you want. I work in a development programme, and I would love to be able to know that after my six months here I will have educated mozambique. Of course that isn't possible, but I am apart of something that is working every day to make that possible.

I want to live in a communist society, so by being a communist, and by commiting my life to a movement fighting for that, is moving that desire forward every day. We may not get there in our lifetimes, but we have to give our all, and try our best to build the movement, so that some day in the future that dream will come true.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 9 2004, 05:20 AM
The nihilist by definition believes in nothing
That's not true. Nihilism is the rejection of ideas and concepts that are not founded fact. Such as morality, ethics, religion or meaning in our lives. None of these things exist. They aren't real.

A great quote that goes some way in defining Nihilism is..


the anarchist will say 'no one has the authority to tell another what to do'. But the nihilist would say that if the one giving orders has a gun and the other not, then what do rights or authority matter?


finds all life, actions and thought to be useless

That's not true either. Nihilism rejects actions or lifestyles which are not fact. For a nihilist Marxism would be useless because it is not a truth, it is simply a subjective concept, and when reduced could mean no less or more than capitalism. Neither of them are truths, only one seems more desirable than the other, but even that statement isn't true, because to whom is it more desirable?

Another nihilist assertions is this...


That conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Nihilism is faith in nothing, just to help you out TAT, that ties in the belief in facts aswell.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 09:42 PM
Nihilism is faith in nothing,
Agreed.


just to help you out TAT, that ties in the belief in facts aswell.

Why would you not put faith in something that was true. If something was desirable and was founded in fact, why would you reject it?

[Dawood]

The problem with this discussion is that it is being done with totally different concepts of the nature of nihilism.

A nihilist can be a socialist if he finds the concept of socialism superior to the concept of capitalism. As simple as that.

[honest intellectual]

I shoudn't have mentioned the n-word. The Anarchist Tension knows what I'm talking about.


Why is that wrong?It isn't.

What does that mean? Change to what?Change yourself so it doesn't 'emotionally pain' you.

That would involve lying to yourself and I for one can't actually do that. I've tried, it didn't work.But it is a billion times more likely to work than any attempt to eliminate human suffering.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by honest [email protected] 20 2004, 02:54 AM
It isn't.

Then the rest of your argument is pointless.


Change yourself so it doesn't 'emotionally pain' you.

I don't want to.


But it is a billion times more likely to work than any attempt to eliminate human suffering.

Maybe in my lifetime, or by my actions alone, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't help. I cannot see anything else to do with my life other than being a communist.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

]Why would you not put faith in something that was true. If something was desirable and was founded in fact, why would you reject it?

I meant as it is faith in nothing then it is accepted that anything based on fact and proven to be true rationally etc. is trustworthy as such.