again

[Vinny Rafarino]

After Lenin died he took absolute power and enforced his control over every aspect of Russian life, effectivly becoming a dictator. During the 1930's Russia went through a period of purges and State sponsered ethnic cleansing. The atrocities committed by Stalin turned the USSR into a degenrative state of tyranny and paranoia, the exact amount of people killed is not known. He died in a pool of his own urine after suffering a severe stroke in 1953



:lol:

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 20 2004, 06:26 PM

He died in a pool of his own urine after suffering a severe stroke in 1953



:lol:
Funny! That was my reaction aswell.

[The Feral Underclass]

I thought you'd like that RAF...The very last sentence was my favourite....

in all seriousness thought, stalin is not by strong point, nor do I care it to be, so if you wish to re-write it, that's fine with me.

[YKTMX]

How about a diffirent quote for Trotsky.

How about this one, personal favourite of mine.


A Permanent revolution versus a permanent slaughter: that is the struggle in which the stake is the future of man

Leon Trotsky.

[Intifada]

what about zapata?

Zapata, Emiliano (August 8, 1879 – April 9, 1919) was a leading figure in the Mexican Revolution of 1910 against the dictatorship of Porfirio Díaz. He is one of the national heroes of Mexico. The Zapatistas, which is a revolutionary movement based in the state of Chiapas, are named after him.

[Vinny Rafarino]

It does not bother me comrade...There are so many different views of Stalin's life that another fantastic description is simply a drop in a large bucket of Stalin's urine (saved by his wife and placed in a shrine)

Let's put it this way...Comrade Stalin is not going to care about this description of him.

[The Feral Underclass]

YouKnowTheyMurderedX

Does the trostsky quote make you feel uncomfortable? It was a quote by trotsky, I do not see any reason to remove it. Why do you think I should?

ihatebush

I will add your description.

COMRADE RAF

Fair enough. However, the offer stands open to you if you do wish to give your comrade stalin a more fitting description...what ever that may be.

Oh...just in case you didnt know....Stalin's dead!

[YKTMX]

Does the trostsky quote make you feel uncomfortable? It was a quote by trotsky, I do not see any reason to remove it. Why do you think I should?

It doesn't make me uncomfortable. Every time I discuss politics with an Anarchist they throw the exact same quote at me. I just feel this would be more representative of Trotsky's views, that's all.

[The Feral Underclass]

You mean other than the views about oppressing the workers?

[YKTMX]

Oh ok.

Why don't you add this quote from Bakunin made at the 1869 International is Basle, where he argued for "the construction the international state of millions of workers, a state which it will be the role of the international to constitute". Presumably the fact that states are "evil" slipped his mind, eh comrade.

[Scottish_Militant]

Anarchist Tension, can I have the source for the Trotsky quote as I think it is only fair to judge the point he is making in it's entirity, and not in specially selected quotes, thats not very democratic now is it?

so i'll have the source if you please (a link would be best)

[YKTMX]

Anyway, if you are going to put unfair quotes that reflect your own ideology, perhaps you should remove the "Che-Lives" part of the title.

[kylieII]

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/africa/ws..._kronstadt.html (http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/africa/wsfws/2_2_kronstadt.html)
It cites the source as "3) L. Trotsky, Sochinenyia (Moscow 1925). p.89, p. 136."

[The Feral Underclass]

"the construction the international state of millions of workers, a state which it will be the role of the international to constitute

The quote dosnt even make sense. I'd also like to see where you go it from?

[The Feral Underclass]

You were saying communist revolutionary....?

[YKTMX]

I got it from a biography of Marx by Francis Wheen. That apparently is the position Bakunin argued for.

[canikickit]

That's a good book, that biography.

P. 319 "Karl Marx", Francis Wheen.

"At the first and only International congress he attended (at Basle in 1869) he argued for 'the construction of the international state of millions of workers, a state which it will be the role of the International to constitute'."

Wheen goes on to discuss how Bakunin also debated at the conference, proposing "strengthening the power of the General Council to veto new applicants and expel existing members". (Wheen's italics).

I haven't reached that part of the book yet.

Did you write that stuff, The Anarchist Tension? Good job regardless.

[che's long lost daughter]

Nice and helpful thread :)

[The Feral Underclass]

I would first like to point out that the book is probably written with a Marxist bias. There seems to be no reference to any documented evidence to support what he said and there is also the possibility that what he said was taken out of context. It seems extremly far fetched that from all the documents and books written by Bakunin stating otherwise, he would have completely contradicted his entire philosophy and principles in one sentence.

Regardless of that, and assuming what he said is fact, I do not follow Bakunin as one would follow Trotsky. He is not an icon with which anarchists hail to as a leader nor is he some sort of spiritual guru. If he did say this, then he was wrong. Thinking about it, how would you reply to this? How could you argue against someone who had preached against, fought against and philosophised against something he completely disregards in one comment. Such a profound contradiction seems beyond my comprehension. Needless to say, these comments by him do absolutly nothing to refute the validity of anarchism.

canikickit

yes i wrote it.

[canikickit]

I also meant to say that the way Bakunin is quoted shows that he could have been talking about one state, a global state. While this may still seem to be still adverse to anarchism, it would really depend on one's definition of "state". He could have been using state as a catch all phrase for system.

[Y2A]

What about Mao and Kim???

Or commies went bad, like Pol Pot.

[The Feral Underclass]

Mao is included. For a start I would like to refer your attention to the Che-Lives Dictionary (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=21255) so you can read the definition for communism. Then I want you to try and draw comparisons from what communism is, and what we have in North Korea and what we had in Cambodia.

Secondly, I do not think you will find enough people on che lives who support Pol Pot or Kim to write descrtiptions for them. In my opinion, and I think I can safly say the majorities opinion, neither of these men advanced the workers struggle at all to be classed as left wing revolutionaries or theorists.

[YKTMX]

Needless to say, these comments by him do absolutly nothing to refute the validity of anarchism.

Ofcourse they don't, it would be silly to say they did.

I was however pointing out that everybody can have quotes taken out of context or at times of severe pressure.

[The Feral Underclass]

Sorry, but that quote from Trotsky is not left to interpretation...and if you are implying that it was pressure that made him break the fundamental point of a workers revolution, then what was he doing in this vanguard elite in the first place. If the workers are to put their faith in the vanguard, surly they need people who arent going to start bombing them if the going gets tuff.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Oh...just in case you didnt know....Stalin's dead!



Odd...I am wondering why you said this seeing that my post stated "Let's put it this way...Comrade Stalin is not going to care about this description of him."


Don't break balls just for the sake of doing it.

[Don't Change Your Name]

nice post

[Don't Change Your Name]

an idea: next time it would be good if someone posts a good reading list for everyone new to this, about communism, socialism and anarchism, and make it a sticky.

[Scottish_Militant]

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/africa/ws..._kronstadt.html
It cites the source as "3) L. Trotsky, Sochinenyia (Moscow 1925). p.89, p. 136."

It is nowhere to be found in the marxists internet archive!

I'm not saying your website has made it up, but I must insist you find me a genuine source so we can read his article in full to avoid confusion.

[Osman Ghazi]

What about J.P. Proudhon?

[AC-Socialist]

well there's Jacabo Arbenz

Guetemalan premier, Born in 1913 in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala and died in exile in Mexico 1971.
A passionate socialist, Arbenz came to power in 1951 and enjoyed his peoples complete support. Arbenz Defied american corperate imperialism in the 1950's by nationalizing all UFC depots and other american company residence. This, in 1954, caused a CIA attack against Guatemala at the hands of staunch anti-communist Camilio Castillio. He was in a weak position against the invading hordes and reisgned later that year. He was critisized as having failed to arm the population who were evidenly ready to lay down there lives for the continued economic and democratic prosperity he brought to Guatemala during his premiership.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Do you guys remember The Anarchist Temsion before he became an ambiguous, arrogant douche?
[/end nostalgia trip]

How about Rosa Luxemburg, eh?
edit: she's already there.
I think perhaps we should add Albert Einstein. It's always good to see the capies' reactions when their told that Einstein is a raging socialist who regret even moving to this "free" country!

[Don't Change Your Name]

Ho Chi Mihn, Allende, Berkman, DeLeon and Proudhon would be good additions even if they aren't considered that important around here.

[General A.A.Vlasov]

Zapata, Emiliano
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"

Hey, was it really his words!? :huh:

[The Feral Underclass]

Yes they were zapatas words.

COMRADE RAF

That very line sounds as if you think he is still alive. It was only a joke. Don't take it personally. :)

RedZepplin


Do you guys remember The Anarchist Temsion before he became an ambiguous, arrogant douche?

Why on earth did you feel it necessary to say this?

[Scottish_Militant]

TAT,

Can I have this bloody source or not!?

[The Feral Underclass]

here it is....

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/africa/ws..._kronstadt.html (http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/africa/wsfws/2_2_kronstadt.html)

You need to scroll near to the bottom. The title is 'SOCIALISM FROM ABOVE'....It is quoted from 3) L. Trotsky, Sochinenyia (Moscow 1925). p.89, p. 136.

[Scottish_Militant]

This mysterious "Sochinenyia" cannot be found anywhere i'm afraid, enter it into an internet search and you get a whole 4 results! One being the site you have provided!

How reliable is this website exactly? Do you think they made the quote up? I'm not suggesting they did of course, but I must read the entire article and if you can't provide it then I begin to have my doubts....

[JasonR]

i read all of the descriptions thoroughly and carefully trying to learn about these people that all of you hold dearly.

Ive noticed something though, it seems that the description for Mao Tse Dong is so broad you should add more details.

Im taking courses in history and the topic of Chinese and Soviet communism came up (there is a Stalinist member of the Progressive communist party or something to that degree I believe, the same person that drew me to Che Gevera) I believe the definition of Joseph Stalin is one sided, I personally dislike the man's totalitarianism (actually from the little bit Ive read on communism leon Trotskys ideas appeal to me most), but you ougt to try to get both sides of the story and be more open minded. From my point of view you gave a good, apolitical description of all the communists except for Stalin.

Also about Trotsky being killed by stalin this hasnt been proven. I have heard from many information sources that a cuban who was fond of Stalin committed this atrocity. I think we ought to find more proof about Soviet or NKVD interference in this action.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 01:00 AM
well there's Jacabo Arbenz

Guetemalan premier, Born in 1913 in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala and died in exile in Mexico 1971.
A passionate socialist, Arbenz came to power in 1951 and enjoyed his peoples complete support. Arbenz Defied american corperate imperialism in the 1950's by nationalizing all UFC depots and other american company residence. This, in 1954, caused a CIA attack against Guatemala at the hands of staunch anti-communist Camilio Castillio. He was in a weak position against the invading hordes and reisgned later that year. He was critisized as having failed to arm the population who were evidenly ready to lay down there lives for the continued economic and democratic prosperity he brought to Guatemala during his premiership.
Arbenz was not in any way a Socialist or Communist.

By the way, I think Daniel Ortega and Maurice Bishop would be appropriate people to add on to this page.

[The Feral Underclass]

JasonR


Ive noticed something though, it seems that the description for Mao Tse Dong is so broad you should add more details.

It is difficult to select what parts of someones life you should add to a short description. There are links provided for a fuller more detailed biography. The descriptions are not supposed to be comprehensive.


I believe the definition of Joseph Stalin is one sided,

Yes it is and I do not apologise for it. Nothing I have put is factually untrue. However, as I said to Comrade Raf I am more than happy to allow a stalinist to write a description about him. He said he didnt want too. The offer remains open to him or anyone else who wishes to re-write a description for Stalin.


but you ougt to try to get both sides of the story and be more open minded.

Call it what you will, but I have no intention of getting "both sides of the story," I have heard and read enough to know that that side is beyond my comprehension or compassion. I am not a liberal. I am sorry if my anarchist name gave that impression.


From my point of view you gave a good, apolitical description of all the communists except for Stalin.

I dont even think he should be in the list.


Also about Trotsky being killed by stalin this hasnt been proven.

The man who killed him was an admitted Stalinist. That is why I wrote Stalinist supporter. I never said Stalin had orded his killing.


I have heard from many information sources that a cuban who was fond of Stalin committed this atrocity.

It was a spanish stalinist called Ramon Mercader.


think we ought to find more proof about Soviet or NKVD interference in this action.

Quite frankly why do you are?

[Scottish_Militant]

I take it you are just going to ignore my request then?

[The Feral Underclass]

I take it you are just going to ignore my request then?

What do you really want me to say?

You are right the source does seem obscure. The website appears to be authentic throughout. I am certain the quote is true. I find it hard to believe they would replicate an entire book by Trotsky simply to prove a point. None of the Trotsky internet archives are comprehensive and not all of trotskys works are listed in them. Just because the internet says the book dosnt exists and because you have never heard of it does not make the book nonexistent.

It is up to you to believe the source. It is probably more convinient to assume the quote is a lie.

[Scottish_Militant]

I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a lie, however I've seen plenty cases of quotes being specially 'selected' and when removed from their articles can look very twisted. That's why I'm keen to read this work in full and if it can't be provided do you really think it should be under Trotskys name on the 'whos who' when he made so many brilliant Marxist statements throughout his life.

Is it just there to make him look bad because you are not a Trotskyist yourself?

[Vinny Rafarino]

Is it just there to make him look bad because you are not a Trotskyist yourself?


Of course. Look at the quote for Stalin.


Does it really matter?

[Saint-Just]

Stalin is not responsible for the quote attributed to him. It is a quote from a production on Stalin by Ukranian nationalists.

[The Feral Underclass]

As I have said Chairman Mao, if you Stalinists are so bothered about it, you can change it. You are free to find a quote and write a description. I have said it three times now. Fell free!!!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I have a feeling we should have discussed the content of this in the commie club before posting it here, but whatever.

[Saint-Just]

Stalin, Joseph
'Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union.' Joseph Stalin

1879-1953. Russian revolutionary leader who assumed power after Lenins death in 1924. Made some radical economic improvments and advanced the strength of the Russian armed forces. Born in Georgia he attended priests school until deciding to lead a life in radical politics. He served some time in a siberian prison before joining the Bolsehviks. He rose through the ranks of the central committee becoming Lenins Secretary-General.
Following Lenin’s death, Stalin was voted into leadership by the Party. He sought to remove factional struggles within the party. Stalin and the USSR aided other nations in realising revolution while he was alive and also long after his death. Most notably invaluable support was given to Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese and African socialist movements. In WWII German forces invaded the USSR, the invading Nazis defeated by the Red Army. Following the war the Soviet economy grew even stronger and the USSR became a superpower to match the U.S. In 1953 Stalin died and the various elements within the Soviet Union began to put waste to the ideals and aims of the previous era.

I leave this to your discretion

[The Feral Underclass]

i apologise for not updating this. I am quite busy at the moment and will update it as soon as i can. Im not ignoring peoples suggestions.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

How about we remove "libertarian" from Chomsky's profile.
In America it means a capitalists who condones an extremely free market with as little government regulation as possible.

Perhaps replace it with Libertarian Socialist or Liberal socialist, or liberal-leftist, but it ought to be changed soon.

[Soviet power supreme]

How about changing that Stalin's reference archive with this one

http://www.marx2mao.org/Stalin/Index.html

And what about putting something on Hoxha, Ceaucescu,Tito,Kruchev,Brezhnev,Ho Chi Minh,Kautsky,Gorbachev and Gramsci.

[The Feral Underclass]

I will make profiles for Gramsci, Kautskey and Ho Chi Minh, among others. But if you want descriptions of those other retrogrades then by all means write them.

EDIT I added your link.

[Soviet power supreme]

You did not add that link or at least I cant see it :huh:

Hmm maybe you can put the red color in the names.

Gramsci, Antonio
"I'm a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will. "

1891-1937. Antonio Gramsci was born on January 22, 1891 in Ales in the province of Cagliari in Sardinia. He was the fourth of seven children born to Francesco Gramsci and Giuseppina Marcias.He was one of the members who created the Italian communist party in 1921. He was sentenced in prison in 1926 in which he lived rest of his life. Gramsci wrote his Prison books (http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/works/prison_notebooks/index.htm) in prison.

Gramsci's biography (http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/intro.htm)

Gramsci's writings (http://www.marxists.org/archive/gramsci/index.htm)

Kautsky, Karl
"Not the abolition of all classes but the substitution of new classes for the old has been the outcome of the Bolshevist revolution of 1917, as it was of the French Revolution of 1789."

1854-1938. He was born in Prague to middle class Jewish parents. He attended the University of Vienna in 1874 and joined the Austrian SDP in 1875.In 1883 he founded the monthly Die Neue Zeit in Stuttgart which became a weekly in 1890 and was its editor until 1917. His draft of the SDP Programme (http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1892/erfurt/index.htm)
was accepted at the Erfurt Congress in 1895. He had a great influence to the II International(1889-1914).

Kautsky's biography (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/k/a.htm#kautsky-karl)

Kautsky's writings (http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/index.htm)

Take it or leave it.Im going to bed now and post others later.


-_-

[STI]

How about Gandhi, for the steps he made in the development of direct action and nonviolent resistance.

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by LuZhiming+Jan 23 2004, 03:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LuZhiming @ Jan 23 2004, 03:27 AM)
[email protected] 22 2004, 01:00 AM
well there&#39;s Jacabo Arbenz

Guetemalan premier, Born in 1913 in Quetzaltenango, Guatemala and died in exile in Mexico 1971.
A passionate socialist, Arbenz came to power in 1951 and enjoyed his peoples complete support. Arbenz Defied american corperate imperialism in the 1950&#39;s by nationalizing all UFC depots and other american company residence. This, in 1954, caused a CIA attack against Guatemala at the hands of staunch anti-communist Camilio Castillio. He was in a weak position against the invading hordes and reisgned later that year. He was critisized as having failed to arm the population who were evidenly ready to lay down there lives for the continued economic and democratic prosperity he brought to Guatemala during his premiership.
Arbenz was not in any way a Socialist or Communist.

By the way, I think Daniel Ortega and Maurice Bishop would be appropriate people to add on to this page. [/b]
Read for yourself
http://www.stanford.edu/~mbucheli/arbenz.html

[The idealist]

Perhaps this quote from Joseph Stalin suits him better


A single death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic.

Because although Stalin bossted the USSR military, he did so at the cost of the russian populace. Communist and non-communists were killed in prison camps worse than hitlers.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 9 2004, 10:03 PM
Perhaps this quote from Joseph Stalin suits him better


A single death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic.

Because although Stalin bossted the USSR military, he did so at the cost of the russian populace. Communist and non-communists were killed in prison camps worse than hitlers.
Although I agree that Stalin was a tyrant and that his acts against the russian people were disgusting, the who&#39;s who has to attempt to stay objective. Believe it or not, there are some misguided fools who deny stalins crimes, and because che lives is open to all leftists, and operates a non restriction policy for stalinists, opinions on stalin have to be kept to threads like this one Stalin crimes thread (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24603) which has an ongoing debate about Stalins crimes etc which you are more than welcome to join in.

[Mike Fakelastname]

I think it&#39;d be a good idea to put pop culture figures in that list, so people can relate, I&#39;m not writing shit, just suggesting. A few to consider: John Steinbeck, Upton Sinclair, Mark Twain, Helen Keller, Albert Einstein, Jack London, uhhhh, I guess that&#39;s all I can think of. Oh, if you want to get into the hippie era socialists, Abbie Hoffman would be good to add.

Edit: Also, most black nationalist figures, in particular Stokely Carmichael, were devout socialists. Some of them even made contributions to the ideology.