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Conghaileach
7th June 2004, 19:01
from The Plough #40...

THE SOCIALIST UNDERSTANDING OF THE NATIONAL QUESTION

Throughout history, nationalism has taken (1) many different forms
(conservative, radical etc), (2) has/is supported by many different
social groups (bourgeoisie, working class, etc), (3) has very
different political effects (reactionary, progressive). When dealing
with nationalism, it is necessary like Marx, Engels, Lenin and
Connolly to reject an abstract and timeless theory of nationalism. It
was always historical and concrete.

The fundamental point is that their analysis of nationalism was
always put in terms of (a) the strategic interests of the working
class, and thus always emphasised (b) the relation between
nationalism and democracy. Marxists have to understand simultaneously
the social roots of national struggles and the national content of
the class struggle.

It is a commonly held misconception that Marx and Engels did not
understand the importance of nationalism. They are famous for writing
in the Manifesto that "the workers have no country". Does that mean
that they have no interest in the nation? In fact, Marx and Engels
understood very well the importance for nationalism for working class
politics. In the same Manifesto, they write that the
proletariat "must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must
constitute itself the nation, it is, so far, itself national, though
not the in the bourgeois sense of the word."

The question of the leading class of the nation is of extreme
importance. Societies are divided into classes, so the "national
interest" must be represented by one of them. The most progressive
class in society would be truly national in so far as it was able to
take the whole society forward, even while it was promoting its own
interest. If it is not that of the proletariat, the nationalism will
be that of the ruling classes that conceive their own interest as
those of the entire nation. That capacity to represent the interest
of a particular social class as those of the entire nation is very
important.

Similarly, they have been accused of intending to abolish national
differences. However, what Marx and Engels foresaw was not the
complete disappearance of all national distinctions whatever but
specifically the abolition of sharp economic and social differences,
economic isolation, invidious distinctions, political rivalries, wars
and exploitation of one nation by another. In the case of Ireland and
Britain for example, they advocated "the transformation of the
present forced Union into an equal and free Confederation if
possible, or into complete separation if necessary" (255). The Irish
question was decisive in the formation of the Marxist analysis of the
national question.

For Marx and Engels, there was nothing intrinsically progressive
about Irish nationalism; the right of a nation to self-determination
is not absolute. Marx and Engels were clearly aware that the relation
between England and Ireland was one of oppression. But, Marx's
support for the Irish struggle was "not only acted upon feelings of
humanity. There is something besides." (404) His support for
Ireland's right to self-determination was based on a class analysis.
In the 1840s and 1850s, Marx and Engels believed that Irish freedom
would be a by-product of a working class revolution in Great Britain.
But in 1869, he wrote: "Deeper study has now convinced me of the
opposite. The English working class will never accomplish anything
before it has got rid of Ireland. The lever must be applied in
Ireland." (398) Why? Marx thought that the English aristocracy
maintained its domination at home through its domination of
Ireland. "A nation that oppresses another forges its own chains."
(255) This is why "to accelerate the social revolution in Europe, you
must push on the catastrophe of official England. To do so, you must
attack her in Ireland. That's her weakest point. Ireland lost, the
British Empire is gone and the class war in England till now
somnolent and chronic, will assume acute forms." (404) Thus, for
English workers, "the national emancipation of Ireland is no question
of abstract justice or humanitarian sentiment, but the first
condition of their own social emancipation." (408) Therefore the task
for socialists was everywhere to put "the conflict between England
and Ireland in the foreground, and everywhere to side openly with the
Irish." (408) Their position on Ireland was analysed in terms of the
European and British revolution. The situation was assessed in terms
of its impact on the balance of forces between classes in Europe,
Britain and Ireland and how it would increase the class struggle.

Regarding the class struggle in Ireland, they arrived at the
conclusion that the land question, "is not merely a simple economic
question but at the same time a national question, since the
landlords there are its mortally hated oppressor." Marx saw the
relation between the national question and the class struggle in the
following terms: "In Ireland the land question has hitherto been the
exclusive form of the social question, because it is a question of
existence, of life and death, for the immense majority of the Irish
people, and because it is at the same time inseparable from the
national question." (407) The solution advocated by Marx was "What
the Irish need is (1) self-government and independence from England,
(2) an agrarian revolution, (3) protective tariffs against England."
(158) It was in the interests of the class struggle that the Irish
should give a central importance to the national question. In an 1882
letter to Kautsky, Engels wrote that the Irish "have not only the
right but even the duty to be nationalistic before they become
internationalistic", "they are most internationalistic when they are
genuinely nationalistic." (449) To the idea that workers of oppressed
and oppressor nations should somehow put their national differences
behind, Engels replied: "If members of a conquering nation called
upon the nation they had conquered and continued to hold down to
forget their specific nationality and position, to 'sink national
differences' and so forth, that was not Internationalism, it was
nothing else but preaching to them submission to the yoke, and
attempting to justify and perpetuate the dominion of the conqueror
under the cloak of Internationalism. It was sanctioning the belief,
only too common among the English working men, that they were
superior beings compared to the Irish." (419)

What was true of the relationship between Britain and Ireland, in the
later part of the 19th century was mirrored all over the world with
the imperialist stage of capitalism. Imperialism is a worldwide
system of colonial oppression and financial domination of the
overwhelming majority of the world by a small number of capitalist
countries. A handful of imperialist countries obtain high profits of
the exploitation of oppressed people worldwide. Imperialism thus
divides the world into oppressed and oppressor nations. Lenin, after
Marx and Engels, developed the most advanced Marxist understanding of
the national question. For Lenin, the focal point in the socialist
programme "must be that division of nations into oppressor and
oppressed which forms the essence of imperialism." (CW21, 409) If one
confronts the reality of imperialism, the first fact is that the
world is now divided between oppressor and oppressed nations, and
that national oppression has not only been extended, it has
intensified. Imperialism has also the effect of dividing the working
class. The super profits are able to "buy off" a layer of the working
class in the oppressor countries.

Lenin wrote "The policy of Marx and Engels on the Irish question
serves as a splendid example of the attitude the proletariat of the
oppressor nation should adopt towards national movements, an example
which has lost none of its practical importance." (CW20, 442)
Socialism for Lenin "will remain a hollow phrase if it is not linked
up with a revolutionary approach to all questions of democracy,
including the national question." (CW21, 413) Within their ultimate
aim of socialism, communists support "every revolutionary movement
against the present social system, they support all oppressed
nationalities, persecuted religions, downtrodden social estates etc.
in their fight for equal rights." (CW20, 34) He wrote this important
statement: "Increased national oppression under imperialism does not
mean that Social Democracy should reject what the bourgeoisie call
the 'utopian' struggle for the freedom of nations to secede but, on
the contrary, it should make greater use of the conflicts that arise
in this sphere, too, as ground for mass action and for revolutionary
attacks on the bourgeoisie." (CW22, 146) Nationalism is a potent
mobilising agent and the necessary framework for the transition to
socialism in societies dominated by imperialism. Lenin was keenly
aware of nationalism as a catalysing agent. His analysis is based on
distinctions between oppressor nations and oppressed nations,
bourgeois nationalism and revolutionary nationalism. In so far as the
oppressed nation fights the oppressor "we are always, in every case,
and more strongly than anyone else, in favour, for we are the
staunchest and the most consistent enemies of oppression." (CW20, 411-
412) "The bourgeois nationalism of any oppressed nation has a general
democratic content that is directed against oppression, and it is
this content that we unconditionally support." (CW20, 412)

Consequently, Marxism must take both tendencies of nationalism into
account by advocating "firstly the equality of nations and languages
and the impermissibility of all privileges in this respect (and the
right to self-determination); secondly the principle of
internationalism and uncompromising struggle against the
contamination of the proletariat with bourgeois nationalism, even of
the most refined kind." (CW20, 435) The task of the socialists is not
simply to tail the bourgeois nationalism. Democratic demands, Lenin
argued "must be formulated and put through in a revolutionary and not
a reformist manner, going beyond the bounds of bourgeois legality,
breaking them down, going beyond speeches in parliament and verbal
protests, and drawing the masses into decisive action." (CW22, 145)
Real revolutions do not take a "pure" form, with a "pure" working
class. Responding to Socialists who had dismissed the 1916 rising as
a nationalist revolt, Lenin replied: "To imagine that a social
revolution is conceivable without revolts of small nations in the
colonies and in Europe, without the revolutionary outbursts of a
section of the petty bourgeoisie with all its prejudices, without the
movement of non-class conscious proletarian and semi-proletarian
masses against oppression of the landlords, the church, the monarchy,
the foreign yoke, etc- to imagine that is tantamount to repudiating
social revolution. So one army lines up in one place and says 'we are
for socialism', and another somewhere else lines up and says 'we are
for imperialism' and that will be a social revolution! ... Who ever
expects a 'pure' social revolution will never live to see it. Such a
person pays lip service to revolution without understanding what
revolution is". ("The Discussion of Self Determination Summed Up",
CW22, 355-356) The role of nationalism and national question is
crucial for the socialism: "The dialectics of history are such that
small nations powerless as an independent factor in the struggle
against imperialism, play a part as one of the ferments, one of the
bacilli which facilitate the entry into the arena of real power
against imperialism, namely the socialist proletariat." (CW22, 357)

The rising failed, but Lenin nevertheless defended its
validity. "The misfortune of the Irish is that they rose
prematurely, but only in revolutionary movements which are often
premature, partial, sporadic, and therefore unsuccessful will the
masses gain, experience, acquire knowledge, gather strength, get to
know their real leaders, the socialist proletarians, and in that way
prepare for the general onslaught, in the same way as separate
strikes, demonstrations, local and national, mutinies in the army,
outbreaks among the peasantry, etc, prepared the way for the general
onslaught in 1905." (CW, 358) The 1916 Rising was also significant
because it took place in Europe. "The struggle of the oppressed
nations in Europe, a struggle capable of going to the lengths of
insurrection and street fighting, breach of military discipline in
the army and martial law, sharpens the revolutionary crisis in Europe
infinitely more than a much more complete rebellion in a single
colony." (CW, 357) The stance of Marx, Engels and Lenin on Ireland
and the Irish question are the model for the socialist understanding
of the national question

redstar2000
8th June 2004, 15:43
Imperialism has also the effect of dividing the working class. The super profits are able to "buy off" a layer of the working
class in the oppressor countries.

This is a theory that no longer "makes sense" to me...even though Marx and Engels themselves used it to "explain" why the English working class was "less revolutionary" than the continental working class.

I can see some indirect benefits of imperialism for the working class...for example, well-paid jobs in industries oriented towards the production of military goods, civil-service jobs in the colonial bureaucracy, infra-structural improvements to facilitate "defense", a large standing army, etc.

But the idea that the capitalist class as a whole ever pays workers more than the average social cost of their reproduction is completely outside the scope of Marx's analysis of capitalist economics.

Capitalists can no more "bribe" workers than they can "bribe" other capitalists...nor do they have any reason to do so.

If capitalists as a class have the independence to raise or lower workers' pay depending on their imperial successes or failures, then the labor theory of value crashes and burns.

Instead, workers' pay becomes a matter of "morality" -- "good capitalists" share their super-profits with their workers; "bad capitalists" hog it all for themselves.


For Lenin, the focal point in the socialist programme "must be that division of nations into oppressor and oppressed which forms the essence of imperialism."

I think this formulation of the question, though superficially plausible, is actually quite mis-leading.

Nations are composed of classes, which are the real "actors" in the historical process.

The expression that "U.S. imperialism is the main enemy of all the world's people in the present epoch" is short-hand. It doesn't mean that all Americans are enemies of all the world's peoples -- though some think that's exactly what it means. It is the American ruling class that is imperialistic...not "Americans in general".

Of course, the American ruling class can generate considerable popular support for their imperial adventures by appealing to patriotism, racism, religion, and, if pressed, to fear of material deprivation ("if we lose Iraq, your SUV is nothing but expensive scrap metal").

Generally speaking, such appeals are ideological, not material. In other words, lies.

The real reason to oppose American imperialism is not because it's American, but because it's the most spectacularly successful imperialism of the present day...and thus the main support of reaction in all countries.


Nationalism is a potent mobilising agent and the necessary framework for the transition to socialism in societies dominated by imperialism.

That's simply not how things have actually worked out. Although a number of countries have attempted a combination of nationalism and socialism and even successfully freed themselves from overt imperialist exploitation (temporarily), the end result of those attempts has been the emergence of modern capitalist ruling classes.

The socialist institutions and ideologies have been dismantled; the nationalist institutions and ideologies have been victorious.

Nationalism (like religion and racism) is the attempt to ameliorate class struggle by imposing an "ideological unity" (the "nation", the "faith", the "race") on what is materially irrevocably divided.

Often it "works", at least for a while.

When it stops "working", then and only then does proletarian revolution become a real possibility.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

percept¡on
8th June 2004, 16:02
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 03:43 PM

Imperialism has also the effect of dividing the working class. The super profits are able to "buy off" a layer of the working
class in the oppressor countries.

This is a theory that no longer "makes sense" to me...even though Marx and Engels themselves used it to "explain" why the English working class was "less revolutionary" than the continental working class.

I can see some indirect benefits of imperialism for the working class...for example, well-paid jobs in industries oriented towards the production of military goods, civil-service jobs in the colonial bureaucracy, infra-structural improvements to facilitate "defense", a large standing army, etc.

But the idea that the capitalist class as a whole ever pays workers more than the average social cost of their reproduction is completely outside the scope of Marx's analysis of capitalist economics.

Capitalists can no more "bribe" workers than they can "bribe" other capitalists...nor do they have any reason to do so.

If capitalists as a class have the independence to raise or lower workers' pay depending on their imperial successes or failures, then the labor theory of value crashes and burns.

Instead, workers' pay becomes a matter of "morality" -- "good capitalists" share their super-profits with their workers; "bad capitalists" hog it all for themselves.

I don't think it's a matter of raising workers' wages, it's a matter of raising the purchasing power of their wages and improving their standard of living by flooding the market with cheap goods.

redstar2000
8th June 2004, 18:18
I don't think it's a matter of raising workers' wages, it's a matter of raising the purchasing power of their wages and improving their standard of living by flooding the market with cheap goods.

I suppose there could be some instances of this...but I have not noticed them in my own life.

For example, a few years ago the world coffee-price "crashed"...but the price at my neighborhood supermarket didn't go down.

Or consider consumer electronics: small color television sets are a lot cheaper now than they used to be, but new computers are still "stuck" at the $800 level.

And what of those "athletic shoes" (when I was a kid, they were simply called "tennis shoes" and were dirt cheap). Now it's $100 or even more...for a pair of fucking shoes?

Perhaps someone could make a really sophisticated statistical argument showing that in general consumer prices are lower compared to wages in the imperialist countries.

But it looks to me like prices stay the same or even go up no matter where the factory is...and the "super-profits" (if they indeed exist) stay in the pockets of the imperialist ruling class.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Saint-Just
8th June 2004, 21:39
If we have people doing jobs that only benefit our country, and doing these jobs abroad, then we will benefit from their labour. It is like Britain having a working population of 100 million but only 60 million receiving the fruits of that labour. The working class are better off in western countries partly because they benefit from the labour of those in developing countries, the price of goods is irrelevent.


Now it's $100 or even more...for a pair of fucking shoes?

However, we are not doing any work to produce those shoes, therefore our country can produce more since we are left to do work besides putting together shoes and cheap electronic goods.

Of course with the money we give to them they can buy things that we produce, but they tend not to.

It does not matter though. In the future it is conceivable that technology will allow all people to consume at the rate westerners do.

Conghaileach
19th June 2004, 23:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 03:43 PM
Nationalism (like religion and racism) is the attempt to ameliorate class struggle by imposing an "ideological unity" (the "nation", the "faith", the "race") on what is materially irrevocably divided.

Often it "works", at least for a while.

When it stops "working", then and only then does proletarian revolution become a real possibility.
I wouldn't consider myself a nationalist, instead a socialist republican. Our view is, simply, that the national liberation struggle is merely part of the class struggle. Native exploitation is no less evil than foreign exploitation, just because the new boss might speak a few words of Irish.

A great piece of literature on the issue, which I'm sure I've posted her sometime previously, is this piece by James Connolly. Though written in 1899 it still rings true (which is probably the saddest fact of all):


Let us free Ireland!

Let us free Ireland! Never mind such base, carnal thoughts as concern work and wages, healthy homes, or lives unclouded by poverty.

Let us free Ireland! The rackrenting landlord; is he not also an Irishman, and wherefore should we hate him? Nay, let us not speak harshly of our brother – yea, even when he raises our rent.

Let us free Ireland! The profit-grinding capitalist, who robs us of three-fourths of the fruits of our labour, who sucks the very marrow of our bones when we are young, and then throws us out in the street, like a worn-out tool when we are grown prematurely old in his service, is he not an Irishman, and mayhap a patriot, and wherefore should we think harshly of him?

Let us free Ireland! “The land that bred and bore us.” And the landlord who makes us pay for permission to live upon it. Whoop it up for liberty!

“Let us free Ireland,” says the patriot who won’t touch Socialism. Let us all join together and cr-r-rush the br-r-rutal Saxon. Let us all join together, says he, all classes and creeds. And, says the town worker, after we have crushed the Saxon and freed Ireland, what will we do? Oh, then you can go back to your slums, same as before. Whoop it up for liberty!

And, says the agricultural workers, after we have freed Ireland, what then? Oh, then you can go scraping around for the landlord’s rent or the money-lenders’ interest same as before. Whoop it up for liberty!

After Ireland is free, says the patriot who won’t touch socialism, we will protect all classes, and if you won’t pay your rent you will be evicted same as now. But the evicting party, under command of the sheriff, will wear green uniforms and the Harp without the Crown, and the warrant turning you out on the roadside will be stamped with the arms of the Irish Republic. Now, isn’t that worth fighting for?

And when you cannot find employment, and, giving up the struggle of life in despair, enter the poorhouse, the band of the nearest regiment of the Irish army will escort you to the poorhouse door to the tune of St. Patrick's Day. Oh! It will be nice to live in those days!

“With the Green Flag floating o’er us” and an ever-increasing army of unemployed workers walking about under the Green Flag, wishing they had something to eat. Same as now! Whoop it up for liberty!

Now, my friend, I also am Irish, but I’m a bit more logical. The capitalist, I say, is a parasite on industry; as useless in the present stage of our industrial development as any other parasite in the animal or vegetable world is to the life of the animal or vegetable upon which it feeds.

The working class is the victim of this parasite – this human leech, and it is the duty and interest of the working class to use every means in its power to oust this parasite class from the position which enables it to thus prey upon the vitals of labour.

Therefore, I say, let us organise as a class to meet our masters and destroy their mastership; organise to drive them from their hold upon public life through their political power; organise to wrench from their robber clutch the land and workshops on and in which they enslave us; organise to cleanse our social life from the stain of social cannibalism, from the preying of man upon his fellow man.

Organise for a full, free and happy life FOR ALL OR FOR NONE.