Emergisme

[The idealist]

I have a little theory based on some books I have read (Terry Pratchett, anybody know him?)
Emergent* intelligence is a fact. Human intelligence has risen from animals who rose from amoeba who rose from "chemical composition??" also called "primal soup" (that last bit is a moot point).
We humans always assume that we are the peak of intelligence, but what i we are not?

Random atoms: Intelligence 0 Complexity 1
(=)
Primal soup (theoretical): Intelligence 0 Complexity 1-10
(=)
Amoeba: Intelligence 0-1 Complexity 10-15
(=)
Animals (in general): Intelligence ?-100 Complexity 50-100
(=)
Humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Wise wise man): Intelligence ?-200 Complexity 100-???

Things somehow went from Atomic (predictable) to Human (unpredictable, acts of "free will")

What if that is not the end of the line? If enough humans are present, can intelligence Emerge? Intelligent cities? Civilistations?

Abraham (some bod in the bible) was possibly the first person to philosophize about it. He saw the way culture and society mingled and had effects on its surroundings. A fair description can be found in this quote:


(...) he (Abraham) was aware that "something" much bigger than him was running that (this) world. It knew when to plant crops and when to reap them, how to tell whether rain was on the way, how to build boats, how to breed sheep (well he would have known that bit), how to have a prosperous life. Even more: it knew how to pass this knowledge on to the next generation. Abraham knew that his own tiny intelligence was nothing compared to this majestic "something"
(The science of the discworld II by Terry Pratchett)

Abraham gave all that a name: Jehova. Meaning "That which is"
Not surprisingly it didn't take much time before someone latched on to that idea an made a religion out of it (I hate when that happens ;) ).

And here I make my break. What if that is actually the case? What if there is such a thing as an emergent intelligence? Don't think "eyes, ears, arms, mouth, body". That is simply personification. Think "self awareness, reaction to environment, bondings, reproduction"

The Human brain is a complex matrix of neural pathways and cells. All this again running back to simply atoms arranged in complex ways. Where is the "you" in your brain? Can't find it? (don't try, put that scalpel down!)

There you go, if you understood all of that, you have mentally proved that you are self aware, intelligent and above all Emergent.

If "you" can happen in your brain, why can't "it" in a city, a civilisation or in all of humanity combined?

* Emerge = To rise out of smth, to slowly become visible
Emergent = something simple "emerging" out of something complex, Lots of different things coming together to become one whole thing.

[Wenty]

Sounds like Hegel.

[The idealist]

Hegel? who is he?

[DaCuBaN]

Terry Pratchett is an excellent source for the enquiring mind. Many of his books simply look at human interaction, and he can be at leasy mildly amusing through to downright hilarious at times.

Although they are childrens books, if you have never read him before I would strongly advise it.


What if that is not the end of the line? If enough humans are present, can intelligence Emerge? Intelligent cities? Civilistations?

Many have theorised that the swarms of this world (ants, bees etc) have a form of communal intelligence - although this has yet to be empirically proved, it has been reasoned. There is nothing that says that if mankind could develop this kind of 'attitude' towards life that he could not also develop some kind if 'greater intelligence' of the sum of the parts that is the human race.

I think not in my lifetime though <_<

[The Children of the Revolution]

Terry Pratchett&#33;&#33; One of my favourite authors&#33;&#33; (I have yet to read &#39;The Science of the Discworld II&#39; though...)



Many of his books simply look at human interaction, and he can be at least mildly amusing through to downright hilarious at times.

Although they are childrens books, if you have never read him before I would strongly advise it.


Childrens books?&#33;? Some of the more subtle jokes are aimed at an exclusively adult audience&#33; And I would develop your perception of their comedy value further... They range from "downright hilarious" to "side-splittingly hysterical"&#33;&#33;

Interesting point about the swarms; and possible application of this to human civilisation. I suppose it IS conceivable. Just take a look back at the scale that was drawn, though. How much more intelligent are we than animals? And how much more intelligent were they than amoeba? Each step is, in actual fact, a "giant leap". It is likely that the next step (if, in fact, there is one) will be similarly gargantuan - so perhaps it is beyond our "powers" of speculation?

I think "Intelligent cities" are unlikely though - surely one needs organic matter to "breed" powers of reasoning or self awareness?? Mere lumps of stone... Why, mountains would be capable of the same feats&#33;&#33; (A scary thought, when you&#39;re plummeting down them at 50 mph with only two flimsy planks for support...)

Fascinating to think about these ideas, isn&#39;t it? :)

[The idealist]

Sure is.


Although they are childrens books, if you have never read him before I would strongly advise it.

I have heard people mention "the two levels of pratchett" one being the childish and simple humor, the other being the more advanced satirical mimicing of this world in his books.

I first thought of that emergence stuff when i read one of pratchetts books (I can&#39;t remember which) and saw mention of cities as animals. This was made in conjunction with the story of a "virus" shopping mall.

By the way, although it was a larg "jump" from amoeba to animals (going from single-celled to multicelled and upwards) it was not so big a jump going from animals to humans. Only a matter of neural connections. Simple experiments could be conducted (possibly in practice, for now we let it stay mental).


Many have theorised that the swarms of this world (ants, bees etc) have a form of communal intelligence - although this has yet to be empirically proved, it has been reasoned.

This has also been seen in the Discworld books. "The Swarm"

Although Terry Pratchetts latest books are so called childrens books they still have points only noticeable to older readers.

But lets not get put off course.

Anybody know who on earth that Hegel guy is?

[Guest1]

Originally posted by The [email protected] 8 2004, 05:05 PM
Anybody know who on earth that Hegel guy is?
The guy Marx developed dialecticalism from. He was a famous philosopher, look him up :)

[Wenty]

http://www.colorado.edu/StudentGroups/Phil...mologyHegel.htm (http://www.colorado.edu/StudentGroups/PhilosophyClub/Referees/EpistemologyHegel.htm)

1st paragraph looks good.

[The idealist]

Sure does.

If only I understood it :unsure: :huh:

But the essence of it seems the same. I think.


Consciousness provides its criterion from within, so that to investigate it is but to compare it

with itself. For both moments of the distinction just made [between consciousness&#39;

knowledge and its truth] fall within consciousness itself. In it the one moment exists in relation to the other : what is definitive of the moment of knowledge is wholly within the purview of consciousness -- while at the same time it is evident to consciousness that the other moment doesn&#39;t exist merely in relation to this way of knowing but also exists outside this relation, i.e. in itself: the moment of truth

:blink:

I wonder how the guy managed to communicate with other people?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Consciousness provides its criterion from within, so that to investigate it is but to compare it

with itself. For both moments of the distinction just made [between consciousness&#39;

knowledge and its truth] fall within consciousness itself. In it the one moment exists in relation to the other : what is definitive of the moment of knowledge is wholly within the purview of consciousness -- while at the same time it is evident to consciousness that the other moment doesn&#39;t exist merely in relation to this way of knowing but also exists outside this relation, i.e. in itself: the moment of truth


Essential Significance? Is that you?

[Wenty]

Hegel is a notoriously hard philosopher to understand so don&#39;t worry.

[Hate Is Art]

It does sound like EI noXion&#33;&#33;&#33;

I like Terry Pratchetts theory about the tortoise and the arrow. If you get a tortoise and make it walk away from, then shoot an arrow at it, the arrow will never hit the tortoise. The tortoise will always be moving so the arrow will constantly have to move to the new position the tortoise is in&#33;

[The idealist]

I know that one. It is a comic representation of a real greek mathematical theory.

Consider an athlete and an elderly man. The athlete runs ten times as fast as the old man. To give the poor old guy a chance he is given ten meters head start.

Logic predicts that, given infinite run time, the athlet will overtake the old man.

The theory however says no. Here is the explanation.

When the race starts, the athlete runs up to where the old man was (eg. ten meters). But by then the old man has moved one tenth of the way (1 m). When the athlete reaches the spot where the old man had moved to, the old man will again have moved one tenth of the way (0.1 m).
This can (in mathematics) continue infinitely, just in smaller and smaller numbers. But the essence is that the runner never reaches the point at which he overtakes.

Trust discworld to put it to the test. :D

[Hate Is Art]

wow, how very strange? So in theory that should make F1 racing obselete&#33;

It&#39;s quite scary that it actualy makes sense when you read it&#33;

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Has anybody tested that obviously stupid theory?

[Rasta Sapian]

yes, and i have just passed you...........................old man

the tourtise does have alot of good qualities in mythology, ie. the tourtise and the hare, the tourtise, is a well protected creature, very adaptable, ie. able to swim and walk over land, they have a long life span, when compared to other animals, and most noteabley have the quality of perseverance which in the end, proves to be most triumphant&#33; ;)

Terry Pratchett, sounds really interesting, i will have to check him out&#33;

Has anybody read Jack Keroak? The word is that he really got around&#33;

[Wenty]

kerouac is one of my fav authors. Fantastic prose style, read the dharma bums or on the road.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:49 AM
Has anybody tested that obviously stupid theory?
Yeah, no one really knew how to disprove a theory like that until calculus came along. It has to do with the theory that a sum of infinitely many terms can yield a finite result. Read about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradox).