Question about a vanguard party and vanguards [Archive]

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The Sloth

6th June 2004, 14:34

There is much opposition to vanguards and vanguard parties on this board. I've gradually started to adopt the same opinions and I am becoming interested in reading a little bit about anarchism.

When I was on the subway the other day, I ended up going to this beautiful spoken-word "party" that had several performances, both musical and poetic...there was a light incense, small, comfortable and cozy tables with a candle in the center, and, of course, they were playing inspiring music by the beautiful Lauryn Hill...anyway, while I was waiting for everything to start, I had the book The Black Panthers Speak with me and I came across a speech by Fred Hampton that spoke about the Black Panther Party as a vanguard that took measures to, firstly, educate and protect all the people until the time comes for action THEN educate them some more so they can assume power for themselves:

"We used to run around yellin 'bout Panther Power...the Panthers run it. We admit we made mistakes. Our ten point program is in the midst of being changed right now, because we used the word 'white' when we should have used the word 'capitalist.' We're the first to admit our mistakes. We no longer say Panther Power because we don't believe the Panthers should have all the power. We are not for the dictatorship of the Panthers. We are for the dictatorship of the people."

Thus, it seems to me that Fred Hampton was conscious of problem of a vanguard assuming total control. However, the Panthers did follow a Marxist-Leninist ideology. Anyway, continuing his speech, Hampton declares...

"The difference between the people and the vanguard is very important. You got to understand that the people follow the vanguard. You got to understand that the Black Panther Party IS the vanguard. If you are about going to the people you got to understand that the vanguard leads the people. After the social revolution, the vanguard party, through our educational programs--and that program is overwhelming--the people are educated to the point that they can run things themselves. That's what you call educating the people, organizing he people, arming the people and bringing them revolutionary political power. That means people's power. That means the people's revolution. And if you're not about being involved in a people's revolution then you got to do something. You got to support the people's revolution."

Now, after reading that, I've thought about some things...first of all, wasn't traditional Leninism about a group of "professional revolutionaries" that did not hope to educate the people, only to lead them since they considered themselves to be the real "Marxist intellectuals"?

Secondly, if a program is adopted like the one Fred Hampton was just describing, with education being a chief aspect (actually, the Black Panther Party set up "classes" for the youth, as young as only a few years of age, that educated them in revolutionary and Marxist thought), would a vanguard be able to LEAD the people WITHOUT establishing a dictatorship of the vanguard?

Just curious on your opinions, especially those that are against a vanguard.

redstar2000

6th June 2004, 16:18

The difference between the people and the vanguard is very important. You got to understand that the people follow the vanguard. You got to understand that the Black Panther Party IS the vanguard. If you are about going to the people you got to understand that the vanguard leads the people.

Even in the days of the BPP's greatest strength, there were other African-American revolutionary groups...which were also followed by "the people".

The conceit of vanguardism is very intoxicating; you simply declare that you are the "vanguard" and that the people "are" your followers...and anyone who doesn't follow is then, obviously, a "backward element" or, even worse, "counter-revolutionary scum".

Naturally it is no longer necessary (if it ever was) to persuade the people that your ideas are better than others...you simply issue commands. Again, those who fail to obey with alacrity "must" be "worthless elements" infected with "petty-bourgeois individualism".

Here's a good rule of thumb in left politics and perhaps all politics: anyone who claims to be a leader ain't!

That is, such an individual may have power over others to one extent or another...what they don't have (any longer) is the ability to persuade people that their ideas are worthwhile. As soon as they die or are removed from the public sphere in some other way, their ideas mostly if not entirely accompany them into oblivion.

Marx and Engels were never "leaders"...but their ideas live on.

...would a vanguard be able to LEAD the people WITHOUT establishing a dictatorship of the vanguard?

Having been in the habit of issuing commands for many years prior to the revolution, it's difficult to see why they should suddenly change their behavior after a revolution.

Certainly, the BPP would have carried on; they were the only group never to have a convention of its membership. Its national leadership was self-appointed and never accountable to the membership; local leaders were appointed and deposed by the national leaders without regard to the membership's desires. There may have been some informal "feedback" from the membership...but that's all. Joining the BPP was like joining an army; you were there to carry out your orders, period.

Curiously enough, this version of the "vanguard" was justified by the need to resist police repression...and it didn't work. Unlike all the other left groups in the 60s and 70s -- which fell apart in factional disputes over political questions -- the BPP was actually physically repressed by the state apparatus. I believe state and federal officials murdered 27 Panthers, mostly leaders, and that was it for the BPP.

One thing that appeals to some folks about "vanguards" is their productivity...every member is expected to put in around 30-40 hours of political work every week (in addition to his/her "day job"). Thus, vanguards often have a "public impact" far beyond what their actual numbers would suggest. The downside is that they "burn people out" at a furious rate; even the young and energetic can't stand the pace for more than a few years. I suspect that the average membership term in vanguard parties (in the "west") is less than three years.

There is much else that can be said on this subject.

Tempt me if you dare. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Saint-Just

6th June 2004, 17:48

wasn't traditional Leninism about a group of "professional revolutionaries" that did not hope to educate the people, only to lead them since they considered themselves to be the real "Marxist intellectuals"?

Thats not true. Lenin said that intellectuals would develop a consciousness without alienation. Marx said that alienation was required. Professional revolutionaries work to raise the consciousness of people through education, not only to lead them.

T_SP

28th June 2004, 18:18

Absoultely CM. Redstar has a habit of twisting things to make Leninist/Trotskyists/ Stalinists sound like a bunch of Fascist dictators. Stalin was though!

elijahcraig

28th June 2004, 18:58

ÑóẊîöŉ

28th June 2004, 19:07

elijahcraig

29th June 2004, 04:11

Hardly.

Hardly what, Morpheus?

redstar2000

29th June 2004, 04:48

Redstar has a habit of twisting things to make Leninists/Trotskyists/Stalinists sound like a bunch of Fascist dictators.

You left out "Maoists".

Actually, I've never accused any of those eminent gentlemen of being "fascists" or even "like fascists"...though one does find some interesting parallels if one knows where to look.

But I don't see how you can honestly deny that the Leninist paradigm assumes the absolute power of the party in post-capitalist society.

Whether you label it "the dictatorship of the proletariat" or "the dictatorship of plum pudding" hardly matters.

The party commands and the masses obey...or else!

Stalin was [a fascist dictator] though!

Oh? Guess who said this...

We have been more than once accused of having substituted for the dictatorship of the soviets the dictatorship of our own Party. . . In this substitution of the power of the party for the power of the working class there is nothing accidental, and in reality there is no substitution at all. The Communists express the fundamental interests of the working class...

Yep, that was your good old boy, Leon, flapping his gums while he was still a big shot in the party.

He became somewhat more modest in his later years...as befits one who has to pay for his bodyguards out of his own pocket.

The best antidote for Trotskyism is to read what Trotsky wrote while he was in power. In fact, it's a pretty good remedy for all Leninist delusions...read what all those guys wrote when there were guys with guns standing behind them to make sure that people paid attention.

"Riveting" doesn't begin to do them justice. :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

SonofRage

29th June 2004, 06:11

I recommend you read Black Anarchism by Ashanti Alston (http://www.anarco-nyc.net/weblog/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=158&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0). It was written by a former Black Panther who later became an Anarchist. It does have a bit of his own insights into his experience as a Black Panther.

On the issue of "vanguardism" there are a few things you could read. I'd recommend:

The Masses and the Vanguard (http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1938/mass-vanguard.htm) by Paul Mattick

Intro to Anti-Bolshevik Communism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1978/introduction.htm) by Paul Mattick.

Also, check out the section on the Russian Revolution in Anton Pannekoek's Workers' Councils:

The Russian Revolution (http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/wcon204.htm) (Workers' Councils Part 2 Ch. 5)

ÑóẊîöŉ

29th June 2004, 11:02

Hardly what, Morpheus?

Hardly a lost soul. The matrix has you, elijahcraig. :P