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Y2A
6th June 2004, 00:19
Just wondering if there are any here. I know alot of you are against the shining paths actions.

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 07:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 12:19 AM
Just wondering if there are any here. I know alot of you are against the shining paths actions.
What's that ?

Hate Is Art
6th June 2004, 07:55
Y2A, whats with all this Poland Stuff?

Y2A
6th June 2004, 09:35
Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Jun 6 2004, 07:48 AM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Jun 6 2004, 07:48 AM)
[email protected] 6 2004, 12:19 AM
Just wondering if there are any here. I know alot of you are against the shining paths actions.
What's that ? [/b]
A Peruvian Maoist guerrilla group. They used horrible methods to try to attempt to win the civil war. Slaughtering campesinos, and planting car bombs in Lima that hurt innocent people(I actually have a cousin that witnessed a car bomb in Mira Flores). They tatics have been emulated by the Nepal Maoists. There leader, "Chairman Gonzalo" was captured about 10 years ago and due to the authoritarianism of former Peruvian president Fujimori(who was caught stealing from the Peruvian state and then fled to Japan btw) the Shining Path's strength was soon diminished. One of the most notable things they did however was when the Pope condemned their tatics, they reacted by setting this huge bonfire of a hammer and sickle on the outskirts of Lima. They use to control huge parts of Peru, especially in the Eastern Andes region, but now are down to only about a hundred hardliners. I believe the hardliners are stationed in Puno.

Edit: I'll send you a PM Digital Nirvana.

Hiero
6th June 2004, 09:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 09:35 AM
One of the most notable things they did however was when the Pope condemned their tatics, they reacted by setting this huge bonfire of a hammer and sickle on the outskirts of Lima.
Any pictures of this.

Y2A
6th June 2004, 09:51
Naw, can't find one.

Anyway here is a pic of the former Sendero leader Guzman

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39149000/jpg/_39149296_guzman203ap.jpg

And his successor, caught later in 99 Durand.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/390000/images/_394424_durand150.jpg

Imagine if they would have actually won! They were very close, repeatly hitting targets in Lima.

Y2A
9th June 2004, 03:16
praxis1966 Posted: Jun 9 2004, 03:09 AM

Let's also not forget that the U$'s war against the aboriginal peoples of Peru (along with massive funding for that bastard Fujimori)

This is from another thread.....so you support the Shining Path messor praxis???

Salvador Allende
9th June 2004, 03:20
I support the luminoso. However, they are not through yet. They have reformed under Artemio, their last surviving leader. They now are prepared to open war again and in the current situation, I believe they will win. Do not forget that they have strong support among the peasantry, which makes up most of the country and they have (or at least did) have near-complete control of the mountains and country-side.

Y2A
9th June 2004, 03:23
If only you knew SA. I mean, I could even understand support for the MTRA, but supporting the Shining Path is the same as supporting the Khmer Rouge.

Salvador Allende
9th June 2004, 03:25
I have read the Shining Path's ideology, done extensive research on them and noticed they are in the RIM. Thus, I can only side with them in their conflict against the near-Fascist Peruvian government.

elijahcraig
9th June 2004, 03:27
What proof do you have of their crimes? If you have it, I'd like to see it. I haven't seen anything substantial...I saw an AP report a while back that attributed most of the deaths in the people's war to the government's killing of peasants and rebels.

Y2A
9th June 2004, 03:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 03:27 AM
What proof do you have of their crimes? If you have it, I'd like to see it. I haven't seen anything substantial...I saw an AP report a while back that attributed most of the deaths in the people's war to the government's killing of peasants and rebels.
Incorrect.

From Human Rights Watch:
Shining Path, a Maoist guerrilla group, killed about half the victims, and roughly one-third died at the hands of government security forces, according to the report. The commission attributed some of the other slayings to a smaller guerrilla group and local militias. The rest remain unattributed


Link;
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/08/peru082803.htm

Vinny Rafarino
9th June 2004, 03:37
One of the most notable things they did however was when the Pope condemned their tatics, they reacted by setting this huge bonfire of a hammer and sickle on the outskirts of Lima


What they should have done was to set fire to the Vatican.

Y2A
9th June 2004, 03:43
You really don't like the Catholic Church do you messor RAF :).

praxis1966
9th June 2004, 03:51
Actually yes I am. And I regret to inform you that the so-called slaughters of the campesinos was done primarily at the hands of Fujimori's death squads. The fact is that it was his soldiers who would forcibly recruit peasants into the national army. They would then send them out ahead of columns of regular infantry without weapons but dressed in military uniforms. When a Luminoso ambush was sprung, hundreds of these peasants would be annihilated as a result of the guerrillos mistaking them for regular infantry. The Fujimori government would then wave an admonishing finger claiming that the insurgents had massacred the same people they were claiming to defend. It's a fairly common tactic really, quite similar to the methods used by the UV in Northern Ireland. They would murder RUC officers, for which the IRA would naturally be blamed, thereby giving rise to massive retaliatory action.

This is to say nothing of the fact that government forces in Peru would often times enter a village in search of one Luminoso sympathiser and round up every inhabitant. Then, at the hands of a hooded judge and juryless trial, hundreds of innocent civilians would be found guilty, in some cases less in than an hour. They would then be taken outside and immediately executed en masse. Fujimori on several occasions suspended the constitution and dissolved pariliament via fiat to maintain his hegemony. Meanwhile, members of escuadrones de la muerte were being trained right here at home in Fort Benning, Georgia. And, throughout it all, the U$ maintained a firebase (the likes of which not seen since Vietnam) in Peru which was the most expensive military installation south of the Panama Canal.

HankMorgan
10th June 2004, 05:20
The Shining Path was defeated by the power of ideas. The ideas weren't new or revolutionary. Just the standard stuff of prospering countries everywhere. Ideas like letting the people own property and getting the government off the backs of the people.

For an interesting read check out Hernando De Soto's book "The Other Path".

Salvador Allende
11th June 2004, 02:57
The Shining Path wasn't defeated, they live on and are gaining more and more strength.

Y2A
11th June 2004, 03:15
Are you actually Chilean or for that matter hispanic? Just wondering.

Salvador Allende
11th June 2004, 03:18
Chilean.

Y2A
11th June 2004, 03:38
Yeah, you Chileans are pretty damn rare in the hispanic parts of Jersey.. Although I do have a Chilean friend.

Anyway, why would you support the Shining Path over the MTRA? I do not understand that logic. The Shining Path openly attacked the MTRA. The Shining Path were Maoists, from your "Salvador Allende" screen name, I take it that you are not a maoist. So why do you agree with there actions?

fernando
11th June 2004, 14:04
Y2A, I have family too in Miraflores, I dont know if you have been to peru before...but is ur cousin a surfer?

I dont support Sendero Luminoso, they kill civilians, out of all civilian casualties caused in this kind of conflict MRTA killed 1% and the government and SL killed the other 99% My cousin told me when he was younger he just had to sit on his roof and would see the bomb explode in the city. But that was in the time Garcia was in power I think...I heard the guy wanted to run for president again...the fucking thief...not that Toledo or Fuijmori are any better...stealing from Peru, letting the US and it's European henchmen suck it dry of it's natural recourses and labour...

Nas
11th June 2004, 15:30
here is some info:

Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA)

Traditional Marxist Leninist revolutionary movement formd in 1983 from remmants of the Movemeent of the Revolutionary Left. a Peruvian insurgent group active in the 1960s. Aims to establish a Marxist regime and to rid Peru of all imperialist elements (primarily US and Japanese influence) Peru's counterterrorist program has diminished the group 's ability to carry out terrorist attacks. MRTA has lost leader and leftist support and in 2002 several MRTA members remained imprisoned in Bolivia.

Activities:

Previously conducted bombings kidnappings, ambushed and assassinations but recent activity has fallen drastically. In Dec. 1996, 14 MRTA members occupied the Japanese Ambassador''s residence in Lima and held 72 hostages for more than 4 months. Peruvian forces stormed the residence in April 1997 killing all 14 MRTA members.

Strength Believed to be no more than 100 members, consisting largely of young fighter who lack leadership skill and experience.



-they are considered terrorists because of their activities.

Nas
11th June 2004, 15:43
Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso)

Former University professor Abimael Guzman formed Shining Path in Peru in the late 1960s, and his teaching created the foundation SL's militant Maoist doctrine. In the 1980's Shing Path became one of the most ruthless terrorist groups in the western hemisphere approximately 30,000 persons have died since the Shining Path took up in arms in 1980s. Their goas is to destroy existing Peruvian institutions and replace them with a communist peasant revolutionary regime.


Activities :

Conducted indiscriminate bombing campaigns and selective assassinations. In June 2003, the Shining Path column kidnapped 71 Peruvian and foreign employees working on a gas line in a city of Peru.

membership is unknown but estimated to be 400 to 500 armed militants


-considered terrorists because of their activities.

fernando
11th June 2004, 19:57
that's from some american terrorist info site right? I dunno if the MRTA Solidaridad site is still on, but they had some good info too

Invader Zim
11th June 2004, 22:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 03:43 AM
You really don't like the Catholic Church do you messor RAF :).
Who does? Hell i know ctaholics who dont like the catholic church.

Louis Pio
11th June 2004, 23:20
Ah the Shinning Path and their leader Comrade Gorgonzola. Have any of you seen his speach? The one they say "shines to the world" and so on in typical maoist crazy language? I got the impression from that speech that the man wasn't quite well in the head.

They are the best example of the insanity of "people's war". Actually the support for those nuts are quite gone. Like all other groups that try to substitute the fight of the masses they are doomed to failure.

Salvador Allende
12th June 2004, 00:54
Actually, I am a follower of Maoism, which is in all reality just a continuation of Marxism-Leninism as defined by Comrades Marx, Engels, Lenin and Koba except it recognizes the urban proletariat is not the supreme proletariat for revolution. The Shining Path now is gaining support again and is preparing to begin a new round of attacks against the Peruvian government. Their last surviving leader, Artemio is leading them. I support the Shining Path, RCG, MCCI, PKK and Communist Party of Nepal. Teis, look at Nepal to see a people's war. A people's war in Nepal is extremely successful, lead by the masses, it is not a substitute. A people's war is directly taken from Mao's tactics on war in 3 stages to use guerilla warfare to hurt the government, gain the people's support and launch a final offensive.

fernando
12th June 2004, 01:30
yah but killing the people in order to get their support doesnt work...which is something the Sendero Luminoso has done quite a lot, that is the problem

Louis Pio
12th June 2004, 01:32
Yes and Nepal is the only country were it have had some succes.
But even there they have big problems with the losses, and it seems like a deathlock that can go on forever.
In Peru that hasn't been the case nor in the phillipines or the several other places it has been tried. At some point some of these groups even came up with the crazy idea of urban guerillaism which lead to defeat of course. The problem is that they build on the peasantry rather than using time on getting the support of the workers. Now am a marxist and as such I think it is obvious that the group that can and will end the present system is the working class. I know maoism has a different view on this, which is not in line with marxism.
Even in Turkey these lunatics are advancing people's war (with no succes luckily), do you realise how big the working class is in Turkey? Why should we then substitute the fight of the masses with a small band of peasants lead by some intellectuals.

Another thing is the crazy language, but that's of course a minor detail. I used to get the magazine from the group in Denmark that supports Shinning Path. These people use works like "his speech shines forever" "it's a bend on the road" etc etc. Language with no relation to real life. But as I said thaat's a minor detail.

Salvador Allende
12th June 2004, 01:35
LOL the peasants ARE the working class in some nations like Nepal. That is the idea of Maoism that the industrial workers are not always the key because in many nations the peasantry are the MAJOR majority. Thus, you are still going on the lines of Marxism, except correcting a mistaken idea.

Louis Pio
12th June 2004, 01:43
LOL the peasants ARE the working class in some nations like Nepal.

No of course not, sorry but that's total revisionism. True there are land laborers.


That is the idea of Maoism that the industrial workers are not always the key because in many nations the peasantry are the MAJOR majority.

Yes and that's why maoism is a failure. Not many countries have peasants as a majority, and even then a marxist approach would be to have the workers as the forefront like in Russia. Russia is a good example of why maoism isn't leninism. Lenin didn't come up with the absurd idea to subjagate the fight of the workers under the peasantry.
Socialism can't be build on the peasantry, that's basic marxism. You should read up on it some time.

Louis Pio
12th June 2004, 01:50
Would you also like people's war in countries like Turkey, Pakistan or India. All have alot of peasants.
Now the marxists in Pakistan don't try to put the peasants first, they actually link the fight of the peasants with the workers. Quite good example of how you can do work in countries like this.
Pakistan: the plight of the agriculture workers (http://www.ptudc.org/News/pak_agric_work.html)

Salvador Allende
12th June 2004, 01:50
yes, so in a country like Nepal you rely on the industrial workers and then run a totally unsuccessful campaign because there are only a small percent of industrial workers.

so, in other words you would have to wait a hundred years or so for the people to have any chance whatsoever because you have to wait for the industrial workers to become the vast majority. It has already been proven that Marx was wrong in one aspect, the most advanced nations will not go to Socialism first. Thus, under realistic Marxist-Leninism you would need to rely on the proletariat themselves which is anyone who sells their labour to an employer to get a pay-check which in Nepal's case would be the agricultural worker. Thus, it is very Marxist-Leninist.

Louis Pio
12th June 2004, 01:57
yes, so in a country like Nepal you rely on the industrial workers and then run a totally unsuccessful campaign because there are only a small percent of industrial workers.


Unsuccesfull like in Russia? ;)


so, in other words you would have to wait a hundred years or so for the people to have any chance whatsoever because you have to wait for the industrial workers to become the vast majority

No, because as I said you don't need the workers to become the majority. But they should play the leading role. They are the one who can stop production, not the peasants. And in Nepals case the chance of a succesfull revolution is closely linked with what happens on the subcontinent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh)


It has already been proven that Marx was wrong in one aspect, the most advanced nations will not go to Socialism first.

Well the point is that you need a certain development of the means of production before you can build socialism.
That's why Lenin (and Trotsky for that matter) was trying very hard to spread the revolution. They knew they would need the developed nations.


Thus, under realistic Marxist-Leninism you would need to rely on the proletariat themselves which is anyone who sells their labour to an employer to get a pay-check which in Nepal's case would be the agricultural worker. Thus, it is very Marxist-Leninist.

Yes, but they shouldn't really subjagate the fight and run into the woods to set up a militia. A more realistic approach would be to start unions. Working to strenghten the ties with the mass of workers on the subcontinent. IMO

Salvador Allende
12th June 2004, 02:06
They aren't saying the agricultural worker's are all that is needed. When they call for a strike in Nepal, everyone that is industrial, agricultural or other stops working. They base themselves on all of the proletariat and not one group or another. The party itself is the van guard.

Skeptic
12th June 2004, 09:31
Most of what Y2A has been describing about the PCP, (Pervian Communist Party) are destortions and lies created by the U.S. State Department, like saying the PCP massacres peasants, when their revolution relies on the support of the basic people and at one time the PCP controlled 40% of the country side because of the people's wide support. When 'rondas' or 'Cince' peasant forces were trained by the USA and poorly equipped they were used as cannon fodder by Fujimori. U.S. Special Forces trained the 'Cince' with methods like making them have a dog as a pet, then forcing them to kill the animal by biting the dog's necks, then the U.S. trainers made the Cince's go around wearing their former pets around their shoulders. I have studied the People's War in Peru and when they set off car bombs in cities the PCP sends out their forces to warn people to flee the coming attack, so basic people don't get harmed. Also you have to realize that the phony 'Truth Commissions' are headed by former Navy Commanders and liberal 'human rightists' who are opposed to the revolution and have rigged the figures to look favorable to the fascists and many of these reports attempts to distort the figures to put unfair blame on the revolutionaries. Also the 'Pol Pot' comparisons come right out the State Department propaganda.

The writing below will give you an idea what the just struggle against Peruvian fascism and U.S. Imperialism means to people in Peru:

Subj: Re: Fujimori's prisons the most hideous Prisons on Earth
Date: 97-03-16 03:12:35 EST

In a message dated 97-03-07 18:29:44 EST, you write:

<< The US sets up Kangaroo Courts in Peru

You don&#39;t hear much in the bourgeois press about the horrors of the US backed Fascist Fujimori regime in Peru.

In the 1990s Peru led the world in disappearances for three years. The Clinton adminstration was worried that Human Rights groups would launch complaints. So it set up a system of hooded judges and kangaroo courts with a grant from the Justice department. The US leaders were concerned that only 10% of those being tried on &#39;Terrorism&#39; charges were being convicted in Peru. Under Clinton&#39;s new system 90% (plus) of those who go before Kangaroo courts on &#39;Terrorism&#39; charges are convicted before hooded military judges. Often times the lawyers who represent the &#39;terrorist&#39; defendants are arrested and tried by the same courts on charges of &#39;apology for terrorism&#39;. One lawyer accidently opened the wrong door in a courtroom, it was the judge&#39;s chamber. On the other side of the two way mirror, a defense lawyer was passionately arguing his case. But there was no judge to hear it. This may often been the case in Fujimori&#39;s courts. This is the system the US has created in Peru.

You should be alarmed by these types of courts in Peru, because a similar system is coming to the US. Already immigrants accused of certain crimes can be deported by secret courts, without hearing the evidence against them or facing their accusers.

And where do Fujimori&#39;s kanagroo courts send their victims?

To the worst hell holes yet devised by man.

Here is a run down on the hideous prisons from an article in the San Francisco Cronicle.

Magno Sosa tries not to remember the rat meat in the putrid beans the guards made him eat while he was wrongly imprisoned on terrorism charges.

He gets queasy when he recalls the rodent&#39;s head, "whiskers and all" and the tiny feet with claws mixed with the foul-smelling jailhouse slop.

Sosa will also never forget the beatings by club-swinging guards who walked on the backs of naked prisoners lying face down on cold concrete at Lima&#39;s maximum security Castro Castro prison.

Conditions for Peruvian inmates, especially revolutionaries are nortorious as the worst in the world.

"Torture and brutal treatment of detainees remains common, a 1996 human rights report on Peru said.

At the naval prison in Callao dungeon like cells are reserved for a half dozen top leaders of Peru&#39;s two guerrilla groups. They are isolated in cells 6 and one half by 6 and one half feet, with walls two feet thick. The dim dungeons are illuminated only by a six inch square opaque skylight.

A Slow Freezing Death

Life at Yanamayo prison, at 12,000 feet above sea level near Lake Titicaca is southern Peru, is in some ways worse. This is where American Lori Berenson is serving a life sentence. Temperatures in Yanamayo are commonly below freezing in the unheated cells with glassless windows. Prisoners bundle in layers of sweaters. Their fingers turn purple and crack from washing their clothing in frigid water. Some suffer from chronic illnesses like laryngitis and depression, according to former prisoners and inmates relatives. And those are only the lucky ones who actually have windows, like Lori Berenson. The majority of the prisoners are kept in windowless cells, in darkness. They are, after a short time of such treatment, unable to walk. The guards drag the prisoners from their black cells for a half hour of exercise and sunlight every day. But before the Fascists take them out into the light they put a black hood over their eyes and keep it there. Then the prisoners are are dragged back and forth.

An even higher prison, called Challapalca, is being built at 16,500 feet above sea level in a remote part of the Andes that some call the "Peruvian Siberia."

Magno Saso, was lucky to survive his incarceration in Fujimori&#39;s dungeons. Sosa, a former provincial correspondent for the Lima newspaper La Republica, and the news magazine Si, was imprisoned for reporting on human rights violations by the military.
In his book, "The Sin of Being a Journalist," Sosa wrote that prison guards bragged of poisoning food to kill inmates slowly.

"Generally it came mixed with kerosene, with stones, hairs, pieces of rusted wire, staples of various sizes, tacks, glass and rats&#39; feet." he wrote.

The dictator of Peru, Alberto Fujimori, boasts that the 23 new prisons he has built are models of &#39;readaption and rehabilitation.&#39; (This is a man who Bill and Hillary regularly snuggle with. Fujimori runs what Bill Clinton calls, "A great fledgling democracy.")

Francisco Soberon of Peru&#39;s Pro Human Rights Association counter Fujimori&#39;s words saying, "The buildings may be modern, but the conditions are archaic."

fernando
12th June 2004, 10:17
Yah and now Fuijmori is gone....to Japan...where he is safe because he is a Japanese citizen or something now...oh yah he also took lots of money and treasures from Peru when he left...

But ok, now we got that other great guy...Toledo, the corrupt indian who also gives everything away to the Imperialists

Y2A
12th June 2004, 17:21
The Communists of Nepal use the same tactics as the Shining Path and are said to greatly admire them aswell. How do you feel about the Khmer Rouge messor Allede?

Edit: See the thing is that I&#39;m not denying that Fujimori was horrible for Peru I am simply saying that the Shining Path would have made an already bad situation even worse and if it was not for growing guerrilla warfare Fujimori would never have been able to increase his power over the Peruvian State.

Urban Rubble
13th June 2004, 00:21
To the guy who says they still have alot of support in the countryside, you&#39;re insane. They have virtually no support whatsoever in Peru.

Listen people, nobody is trying to say that Fujimori or any of the other Peruvian leaders are any better, however that doesn&#39;t mean that the SP isn&#39;t guilty. They have massacred countless Ashaninca indians, it has been reported that they scalp the men who refuse to join up with them. They plant their bombs with virtually no thought at all about the safety of civilians. If the word terrorist applies to any group, it applies to the Shining Path.

Fujimori was a horrible, rutheless leader, but the leadership of the Shining Path is every bit as rutheless.

Y2A
13th June 2004, 00:25
They used methods that the Khmer Rouge used during there Revolutionary war. Nuff Said.

elijahcraig
13th June 2004, 01:03
The Communists of Nepal use the same tactics as the Shining Path

I don&#39;t agree.

And I have reason to distrust you, merely because you used the phrase "Nuff said."

Skeptic
13th June 2004, 08:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 10:17 AM
Yah and now Fuijmori is gone....to Japan...where he is safe because he is a Japanese citizen or something now...oh yah he also took lots of money and treasures from Peru when he left...

But ok, now we got that other great guy...Toledo, the corrupt indian who also gives everything away to the Imperialists
Telado, is the &#39;Indigenous face&#39; the Imperialist put on Perus current puppet. Telado got his degree from Standford University in California and cut his teeth working for The World Bank, no less. That says it all.

Skeptic
13th June 2004, 08:53
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 13 2004, 12:21 AM
To the guy who says they still have alot of support in the countryside, you&#39;re insane. They have virtually no support whatsoever in Peru.

Listen people, nobody is trying to say that Fujimori or any of the other Peruvian leaders are any better, however that doesn&#39;t mean that the SP isn&#39;t guilty. They have massacred countless Ashaninca indians, it has been reported that they scalp the men who refuse to join up with them. They plant their bombs with virtually no thought at all about the safety of civilians. If the word terrorist applies to any group, it applies to the Shining Path.

Fujimori was a horrible, rutheless leader, but the leadership of the Shining Path is every bit as rutheless.
I don&#39;t believe the accounts that say the Pervian Communist Party massacred or scalped Ashaninca Indians Urban Rubble. Much of the stuff you hear is made up by the Intelligence agencies and the bourgeois press who are working against the Revolution. Doesn&#39;t the image of scapling indigenous people seem designed to be espically imflamatory? It seems unlikely to me. It sounds like propaganda. In the early 1990&#39;s the &#39;Shining Path&#39; controlled 40% of the country side so you can imagine the immense support they got from people at the bottom of society all across Peru if the revolutionary controlled so much territory. The PCP are not terrorists, they are revolutionaries who rely on the masses for support. It&#39;s not in their interest to indiscriminately kill or harm basic people. That is how the revolutionaries opperate, like Mao said, they swim like fish in the &#39;sea&#39; of popular support. The revolutionaries don&#39;t wage People&#39;s War by making the basic people fear them.


Here is an article which provides more information on slanders of the Pervian&#39;s phony &#39;Truth Commission,&#39; where many of the distortions and lies you may of heard are coming from:


Peru: The Truth about the "Truth Commission"

Revolutionary Worker #1217, October 26, 2003, posted at rwor.org

We received this article from the Committee to Support the Revolution in Peru (CSRP).

Following in the footsteps of the U.S. imperialist godfathers and their "war on terrorism," the rulers of Peru recently issued a new report attacking the Maoist People&#39;s War in that country.

The government of Peru had appointed a "Commission on Truth and Reconciliation" to investigate and hear testimony on the civil war that began in 1980 when the Communist Party of Peru (PCP) initiated the People&#39;s War. On August 28 the Commission issued its final report.

The main theme of the report is to portray the People&#39;s War in Peru as "terrorism." And its basic conclusion is: It&#39;s NEVER right for the people to rebel against their oppressors.

The Commission claims that it examined "the violence on both sides" of the war. Some families of revolutionaries who were falsely imprisoned or "disappeared" by the government had hoped that this Commission might expose and bring to justice those in the government&#39;s military and police responsible for 20 years of massacres, mass graves, torture, rapes, and disappearances carried out with impunity by successive Peruvian governments in attempts to defeat the People&#39;s War.

But the Commission&#39;s purpose was quite the opposite: to justify the crimes of military, police, paramilitary forces, and government leaders by arguing that these things occurred basically because the PCP had led the people to rise up.

The Commission expresses special horror at the fact that the PCP initiated the People&#39;s War at a time when the government was conducting "free elections." But the recent history of Peru has been the history of one "democratically elected" government after another sucking the lifeblood of the people.

Under Peru&#39;s "democratic" regimes, foreign mining companies have extracted countless millions of dollars in minerals from Peru--while the majority of people in Peru suffer malnutrition and diseases caused by poverty. The masses of indigenous people--abused, despised, and neglected by the power structure--have been excluded from having any voice in the decisions of the government. Millions of peasants have been forced to emigrate to the vast slums and shantytowns of Lima where they are barely able to survive.

But the daily hell of people&#39;s lives, their immense suffering under the normal workings of the system, and the just struggle to liberate themselves through armed struggle are not realities that this Commission seriously considered.

Make-up of Commission Shows Which Side They&#39;re On

Members of the Commission included Lt. General Luis Arias Graziani of the Peruvian Army; Carlos Tapia and Carlos Ivan Degregori, so-called experts on the People&#39;s War who have made careers out of advising the military on how to best conduct the counter-insurgency; Beatriz Alva Hart, an ex-Congresswoman who was part of the coalition under the notorious President Fujimori; two Catholic bishops and a priest; Lay Sun, a leader of a conservative Protestant church; and Rolando Ames, Congressman from a "leftist" group that supported ex-presidents Alan Garcia and Alberto Fujimori.

Who was NOT on the commission? Not a single family member of the thousands subjected to torture, death, or disappearance at the hands of the government. Not a single family member of the thousands of political prisoners who were railroaded by secret military judges and thrown into dehumanizing dungeons. In other words, there was no one on the Commission who might possibly sympathize with the revolution.

The Commission members make clear which side they are on when they express "their most heartfelt homage to the more than one thousand courageous government soldiers who lost their lives or were left disabled because they carried out their duty." On the other hand, the Commission expresses "sorrow" that thousands of youth "wound up seduced by a plan that looked at the profound problems of the country and proclaimed: `It&#39;s right to rebel.&#39;"

Testimony heard by the Commission included some damning evidence about the heinous crimes of the government. Yet the Commission declares that "the most grave responsibility falls on members of the leadership system of the [Communist Party of Peru]...for having directed their struggle against Peruvian democracy...for their violent practices of occupying and controlling rural territories and peasant populations, with a high cost in lives and human suffering; for their politics of genocide because of the way they provoked the State...."

The Commission&#39;s argument boils down to this: The government and its armed forces may have committed horrible acts--but the ultimate responsibility lies with those who "provoked" such a response by leading people to rise up. This is the same perverse logic that labels a woman a "criminal" for using force to fight back against a man who has repeatedly abused and battered her.

The Commission labels the PCP with the usual anti-communist epithets like "authoritarian" and "totalitarian." The truth is that with the initiation of the People&#39;s War, the PCP mobilized the peasants in Peru to take control of their land and their lives for the first time in centuries. In the revolutionary Base Areas, the peasants under PCP leadership drove out the oppressive bastions of the old order that had enforced impoverished conditions on the people. People&#39;s Committees organized new politics, economics and culture. Among those who stepped forward as fighters and leaders were many young women who found in the program of the PCP a real road toward liberation from abuse and degradation and a different future than the one offered by the "democratic" governments that the Commission defends.

Torture and Disappearances by Government Forces

The Commission&#39;s report notes that of the deaths in the war that the Commission attributes to government forces, 61% were "forced disappearances." This means that people were taken into custody by the military or police and tortured. The bodies of these "disappeared" were either so mutilated that they were not recognizable or were buried in mass graves. In 65% of these cases of "forced disappearances," the bodies of the victims have not yet been found. The report explains that disappearing of suspected revolutionaries and their supporters was routine and became especially "systematic" during the years 1989-1993.

According to the Commission, the use of "disappearances" had the advantage of concealing torture of detainees and covering up their eventual killing. In addition, says the report, disappearances provided "intimidation of the population" under military rule.

The Commission&#39;s report also sheds some light on the involvement of the U.S. in the Peruvian government&#39;s counter-revolutionary war. The operation manuals of the Peruvian military were written by U.S. experts on counter-insurgency. These manuals called for "rapid elimination" of the Maoist insurgents by any means necessary. Most of the officers who led these operations were graduates of the U.S. School of the Americas, which is known worldwide for training Latin American military forces in torture, assassinations, and other tactics.

All this is a stunning indictment of the very system that the Commission defends as "democratic." The Commission may try to paint the revolution as "terrorist." But in reality, it has been the U.S.-backed Peruvian rulers who have terrorized and brutalized the oppressed people of Peru.

Justifying Reactionary Violence

A key mission of the Commission was to dig up dirt to throw against the revolution. In any revolutionary struggle where the masses are rising up against those that have brutally oppressed them, people might at times act based on revenge or lash out against those who are not the real enemy. But the Commission report is not an attempt to understand the real-world contradictions faced by the people and revolutionaries in the context of a just armed struggle. Instead, the Commission puts all revolutionary violence into one category: "unacceptable."

The Commission labels armed actions by revolutionary fighters against police and military as "massacres." They refer to every killing by revolutionaries as an "assassination." When members of the rondas (reactionary para-military forces organized by the armed forces) are killed by the People&#39;s Liberation Army, such incidents are called murder of civilians.

In the Commission&#39;s view, only violence by the government&#39;s armed forces can be considered legal and justifiable--even if such official violence may at times take excessive, cruel and sadistic forms. And the Commission makes clear that, in their view, violence carried out by the oppressed in the struggle to get rid of the old order is NEVER justified.

One specific example cited by the Commission is the case of Maria Elena Moyano. Hailed as a hero by the Commission, Moyano ran soup kitchens in the Villa El Salvador shantytown in Lima. If poor people in the shantytown wanted to eat in the soup kitchens, they were required to denounce the revolution. Moyano and her followers turned in those who refused to the government--at that time headed up by Fujimori and his advisor Montesinos (who was also a long-time CIA operative in Peru). At the time, this regime led the world in torture and disappearances. Revolutionaries reportedly first warned Moyano and, when she continued her activities against the people, she was killed. It would be hard to know how many arrests, tortures, murders and disappearances may have been prevented by Moyano&#39;s death. But the Commission shamefully ignores her role in the government&#39;s horrendous crimes.

The Commission also highlights the 1983 incident at Lucanamarca in an attempt to attack the revolution. In this case, revolutionary masses who had been victimized by disappearances and torture at the hands of government forces took retaliation against the village of Lucanamarca. The Commission acknowledges that reactionaries in this village had carried out assassinations of revolutionaries and participated in government-led atrocities. The revolutionary masses reportedly killed almost all the villagers of Lucanamarca in revenge.

In a 1988 interview, PCP Chairman Gonzalo said that the PCP summed up the "excesses" that occurred in Lucanamarca. He explained that this attack on Lucanamarca happened at time when the revolutionary masses needed to strike back some way at the extremely brutal atrocities they were facing at the hands of government forces. But instead of taking this context into account, the Commission tries to argue that Lucanamarca is typical of the People&#39;s War.

Deception with Numbers

The Commission report features an underhanded juggling of statistics about deaths since the People&#39;s War started in 1980. Virtually all the mainstream press immediately reported that the Commission findings showed that the majority of those killed during the People&#39;s War--54%--have been killed by the revolutionaries. In fact, the Commission report doesn&#39;t show this at all.

The Commission attributes to the PCP responsibility for 54% of the deaths about which they collected testimony or gathered direct evidence . They themselves admit that they were only able to account for less than 25,000 of the estimated 69,280 people who have actually been killed.

Of those estimated 69,280 people killed, more than 60% (over 45,000) have still not been identified. Who is in the 2,000 mass graves that have not been opened? It&#39;s clear that they contain remains of peasants and revolutionaries who were disappeared by the police, military, and paramilitaries.

According to the Commission&#39;s analysis, 46% of the estimated 69,280 deaths should be attributed to the PCP, 30% to "agents of the state," and 24% to "other agents or circumstances" ("peasant rondas," "self-defense committees," "paramilitary groups," and "unidentified agents"). They also admit that non-governmental human rights groups have attributed a much smaller percentage of deaths to the PCP--from 5% to 16%.

Even if one accepts the data collected by the Commission (which is suspect, given the Commission&#39;s bias), the deceptive method they use is rather blatant. How can the killings by rondas and other government-led paramilitary forces NOT be considered killings by "agents of the state"? These paramilitary forces have been organized by the successive Peruvian regimes as a key part of the counter- insurgency. They have been recruited, paid, armed, and led by the military and police.

Even more outrageously, the Commission includes in the "other agents or circumstances" category all the people killed by secret government death squads --like the Rodrigo Franco death squad under Alan Garcia or the Colina death squad organized by Fujimori and Mon- tesinos. This is a crude attempt to promote the fiction that these death squads had nothing to do with the government.

When the two categories--"agents of the state" and "other agents or circumstances"--are added up, they account for 54% of the deaths. In other words, the Commission&#39;s own data shows that killings by government-led forces have accounted for at least 54% of the deaths.

However, even these figures are very much open to question when one considers that people in the rural areas--where the majority of deaths and disappearances took place--were still living under military rule ("state of emergency") at the very same time that the Commission was soliciting their testimonies. Under these conditions, how could peasants living in these areas speak freely? It&#39;s not hard to figure out what would have happened to someone who came forward to express solidarity or even sympathy with the People&#39;s War--to someone who testified that the People&#39;s War has unleashed people against their oppressors and offered hope for a different future. If a peasant in the Andean highlands of Ayacucho came forward with such testimony, how long would it be before he or she ended up among the tens of thousands who have been tortured and disappeared?

Under laws that were instituted during the Fujimori regime, anyone expressing support for the revolution can still be charged with "apology for terrorism" and imprisoned for 8 to 18 years. And many people still have outstanding warrants issued during the Fujimori regime when thousands were detained, imprisoned and tried by secret military judges.

When the tens of thousands of "unidentified" victims of government and paramilitary terror are considered, it becomes clear that the great majority of deaths in the Peruvian war have been at the hands of the official military and police as well as government-backed paramilitary and other reactionary forces. [end of Revolutionary Worker article]

Also in conclusion many people are not aware of the popular support that the PCP made internationally despite being maligned and slandered by the bourgeois press like few movement ever have been. (The revolution in Peru is attacked because it poses a real threat to the ruling order and a real alternative to Capitalism). The Shining Path made such headway in their revolution using correct methods that the revolution even aroused the support of the musical group, &#39;Rage Against the Machine.&#39; The band&#39;s video &#39;Bomb Track&#39; featured running printed commentary supporting the People&#39;s War, which the band labled as &#39;just.&#39; The video showed scences of armed Maoist Shining Path revolutionaries as well as street fighting by the masses in Peruvian urban areas. Also the band made their video inside a large barred cage, mimicking the speech of Chairman Gonzalo, they even used video clips of Gonzalo&#39;s (Abimeal Guzman) famous speech from the cage when he was paraded in front of the Peruvian media. The &#39;Bomb Track&#39; video was censored by U.S. MTV, but ran widely in Europe.


Skeptic

fernando
13th June 2004, 10:13
Originally posted by Skeptic+Jun 13 2004, 08:03 AM--> (Skeptic @ Jun 13 2004, 08:03 AM)
[email protected] 12 2004, 10:17 AM
Yah and now Fuijmori is gone....to Japan...where he is safe because he is a Japanese citizen or something now...oh yah he also took lots of money and treasures from Peru when he left...

But ok, now we got that other great guy...Toledo, the corrupt indian who also gives everything away to the Imperialists
Telado, is the &#39;Indigenous face&#39; the Imperialist put on Perus current puppet. Telado got his degree from Standford University in California and cut his teeth working for The World Bank, no less. That says it all. [/b]
You mean Toledo dont you? ;)

Urban Rubble
13th June 2004, 20:07
I don&#39;t believe the accounts that say the Pervian Communist Party massacred or scalped Ashaninca Indians Urban Rubble. Much of the stuff you hear is made up by the Intelligence agencies and the bourgeois press who are working against the Revolution. Doesn&#39;t the image of scapling indigenous people seem designed to be espically imflamatory? It seems unlikely to me. It sounds like propaganda. In the early 1990&#39;s the &#39;Shining Path&#39; controlled 40% of the country side so you can imagine the immense support they got from people at the bottom of society all across Peru if the revolutionary controlled so much territory. The PCP are not terrorists, they are revolutionaries who rely on the masses for support. It&#39;s not in their interest to indiscriminately kill or harm basic people. That is how the revolutionaries opperate, like Mao said, they swim like fish in the &#39;sea&#39; of popular support. The revolutionaries don&#39;t wage People&#39;s War by making the basic people fear them.

If you want to call everything that is contrary to what you wish to believe "propaganda", that&#39;s fine, but you are basically making debate impossible.

The massacres of Ashaninca Indians has been proven by numerous sources. I suggest you read "In the Forests of the Night" By John Simpson. It is a completely independent, objective look into the situation in Peru. He is very hard on the Fujimori regime, much more than the SP, but he also condemns the SP.

Y2A
13th June 2004, 20:42
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 13 2004, 08:07 PM

I don&#39;t believe the accounts that say the Pervian Communist Party massacred or scalped Ashaninca Indians Urban Rubble. Much of the stuff you hear is made up by the Intelligence agencies and the bourgeois press who are working against the Revolution. Doesn&#39;t the image of scapling indigenous people seem designed to be espically imflamatory? It seems unlikely to me. It sounds like propaganda. In the early 1990&#39;s the &#39;Shining Path&#39; controlled 40% of the country side so you can imagine the immense support they got from people at the bottom of society all across Peru if the revolutionary controlled so much territory. The PCP are not terrorists, they are revolutionaries who rely on the masses for support. It&#39;s not in their interest to indiscriminately kill or harm basic people. That is how the revolutionaries opperate, like Mao said, they swim like fish in the &#39;sea&#39; of popular support. The revolutionaries don&#39;t wage People&#39;s War by making the basic people fear them.

If you want to call everything that is contrary to what you wish to believe "propaganda", that&#39;s fine, but you are basically making debate impossible.

The massacres of Ashaninca Indians has been proven by numerous sources. I suggest you read "In the Forests of the Night" By John Simpson. It is a completely independent, objective look into the situation in Peru. He is very hard on the Fujimori regime, much more than the SP, but he also condemns the SP.
You can tell them what ever facts you want messor urban rubble. I showed an AI report, you tell them about an independent book, etc.. they just don&#39;t listen. They don&#39;t want to listen. They want to believe that Sendero were these freedom fighters.

Urban Rubble
13th June 2004, 21:03
Any of you SP supporters, send a PM to the user "Inti". Many of his wife&#39;s family members were massarcre&#39;d by the SP. Shit, if my friend Manuel had the internet hooked up in the alley he lives in, he&#39;d tell you how he watched his son be shot in the face for the "crime" of giving bandages to a Peruvian Army soldier for his gangrenous leg.

Osman Ghazi
13th June 2004, 21:05
What I want to know is why? What do they have to gain that they would simply massacre people who would theoretically support them.

fernando
13th June 2004, 21:12
My cousin told me that when he was young he could almost on a daily basis see from his rooftop the buildings that were blown up in Lima by Sendero Luminoso...he is a Peruvian, and he has been there all his life and seen that shit, so I&#39;d rather believe him than somebody who lives on the other side of the world and says that Sendero Luminoso are super goodie guys because he read that from some "good" source...and when people say something else you will hear from that person something like "capitalist propaganda&#33;&#33;&#33;"

Y2A
13th June 2004, 22:55
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 13 2004, 09:05 PM
What I want to know is why? What do they have to gain that they would simply massacre people who would theoretically support them.
They "gained support" because they forced people to join them. Like african militia&#39;s that capture children.

I&#39;m sure my cousin was cheerful that the revolution was finnaly coming when the car bomb went off.