Evolution of Society

[New Tolerance]

Ok, here's a question for everyone:

Did people started to trade before there was a state? (back in the early days - 6000 years ago or something)or did people make a state first before they started to trade? (What does this has to do with economics? you'll see)

From what I was taught, people started to freely trade (not with money, but trade with goods directly) before there exsisted the state. (By the capitalists' definition, these actions of free trade and statelessness is capitalism) Some of the more skillful people eventually became richer and has to hire security guards to defend their stored goods from thieves, and as they hire more guards they eventually became the kings (which is a dictatorship by the way) and thus came the state. (And taxes started etc etc)

So is it valid to say that free trading capitalism will start out well, but will eventually lead back to the state (whether democratic or dictatorial), and thus will "eventually end" like communism.... (by their arguement)??

Ok, continuing the question:

I have never heard of a scenario in which the state came before free trade, can someone suggest a scenario like that, which could indicate that capitalism will not lead back to the state?

[redstar2000]

It's a good question...and since we're speaking of pre-literate societies, there's bound to be some controversy.

I think the sequence went something like this...

1. Hunter-gatherers...occasional barter, but gifts (share of the kill) the most common form of exchange.

2. Nomadism...the rise of private property in domesticated animals and women. Wives could be purchased with cattle, for example.

3. Agriculture...creation of an on-going surplus which was available for barter and appropriation by a central warrior-priest hierarchy.

The real sequence was undoubtedly more complex in particular cases, but I think the over-all pattern would look very much like what I suggest.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Nyder]

After people began domesticating animals, growing crops and starting settlements (the first step in mass production of wealth); roaming bands of thugs formed to take their produce by force. Soon these brutes found that if they robbed, looted and murdered all of the producers then there would be no one left in the area to steal from. So they settled in one particular area, and decided to rule over the people instead, still robbing them but not to the point where they would no longer produce. This way they could extract regular value from the populace. Soon they called themselves 'Kings', 'Lords' or 'Barons'. But really they were just thugs. These eventually evolved into 'Governments', who have become more efficient in robbing us blind, but still face the ultimate dilemma: they destroy more value then they create.

[Victor-Meunier]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 5 2004, 06:16 PM
From what I was taught, people started to freely trade (not with money, but trade with goods directly) before there exsisted the state.
It's called evolution man.