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redstar2000
4th June 2004, 14:10
Those who relish the "nasty side" of humanity -- namely reactionaries -- dote on baboons, even though they are relatively distant primate cousins of ours. In general, baboons are a particularly aggressive and hierarchal species...just "perfect" for a "lesson" on how capitalism and war "fit human nature".

Here is a little science for the reactionaries; the facts, like baboons themselves, can sneak up on you and bite you in the ass. :lol:
----------------------


Peace Lessons from an Unlikely Source

Frans B. M. de Waal

Copyright: © 2004 Frans B. M. de Waal. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.

http://www.plosbiology.org/plosonline/?req...al.pbio.0020101 (http://www.plosbiology.org/plosonline/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0020101)

Excerpts...

I simply wish to draw attention to the cultural fissures in how violence is portrayed, how we teach conflict resolution, and whether harmony is valued over competitiveness. This is the problem with the human species. Somewhere in all of this resides a human nature, but it is molded and stretched into so many different directions that it is hard to say if we are naturally competitive or naturally community-builders. In fact, we are both, but each society reaches its own balance between the two.

Does this variability mean, as some have argued, that animal studies cannot possibly shed light on human aggression? "Nature, red in tooth and claw" remains the dominant image of the animal world. Animals just fight, and that is it? It is not that simple. First, each species has its own way of handling conflict, with for example the chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) being far more violent than that equally close relative of ours, the bonobo (P. paniscus) (de Waal 1997). But also within each species we find, just as in humans, variation from group to group. There are "cultures" of violence and "cultures" of peace. The latter are made possible by the universal primate ability to settle disputes and iron out differences.

There was a time when no review of human nature would be complete without assertions about our inborn aggressiveness. The first scientist to bring up this issue, not coincidentally after World War II, was Konrad Lorenz (1966). Lorenz's thesis was greeted with accusations about attempts to whitewash human atrocities, all the more so given the Nobel Prize winner's native tongue, which was German. But Lorenz was hardly alone. In the USA, science journalist Robert Ardrey (1961) presented us as "killer apes" unlikely to ever get our nasty side under control.

The opposition argued, of course, that aggression, like all human behavior, is subject to powerful cultural influences. They even signed petitions to this effect, such as the controversial Seville Statement on Violence (Adams et al. 1990). In the polarized mind-set of the time, the issue was presented in either-or fashion, as if behavior cannot be both learned and built upon a biological foundation. This rather fruitless nature/nurture debate becomes considerably more complex if we include what is usually left out, which is the ability to keep aggression under control and foster peace. For this ability, too, there exist animal parallels, such as the habit of chimpanzees to reconcile after fights by means of a kiss and embrace. Such reunions are well-documented in a multitude of animals, including nonprimates, such as hyenas and dolphins. They serve to restore social relationships disturbed by aggression, and any animal that depends on cooperation needs such mechanisms of social repair (Aureli and de Waal 2000; de Waal 2000). There are even indications that in animals, too, cultural influences matter in this regard. This may disturb those who write culture with a capital C, and hence view it as uniquely human, but it is a serious possibility nonetheless.

Nonhuman culture is currently one of the hottest areas in the study of animal behavior. The idea goes back to the pioneering work of Kinji Imanishi, who in 1952 proposed that if individuals learn from one another, their behavior may over time grow different from that of individuals in other groups of the same species, thus creating a characteristic culture (reviewed by de Waal 2001). Imanishi thus brought the culture concept down to its most basic feature, that is, the social rather than genetic transmission of behavior. Since then, many examples have been documented, mostly concerning subsistence techniques, such as the sweet potato washing of Japanese macaques (Macaca fuscata) and the rich array of tool use by wild chimpanzees, orangutans (Pongo pymaeus), and capuchin monkeys (Cebus spp.) (Whiten et al. 1999; de Waal 2001; Hirata et al. 2001; Perry et al. 2003; van Schaik et al. 2003). However, much less attention has been paid to social culture, which we might define as the transmission of social positions, preferences, habits, and attitudes.

Returning to the issue of aggressive behavior, here the effects of social culture can be felt as well. Without any drugs or brain lesions, one experiment managed to turn monkeys into pacifists. Juveniles of two different macaque species were placed together, day and night, for five months. Rhesus monkeys (Macaca mulatta), known as quarrelsome and violent, were housed with the more tolerant and easy-going stumptail monkeys (M. arctoides) (Figure 1). Stumptail monkeys easily reconcile with their opponents after fights by holding each others' hips (the so-called "hold-bottom" ritual), whereas reconciliations are rare in rhesus monkeys. Because the mixed-species groups were dominated by the stumptails, physical aggression was rare. The atmosphere was relaxed, and after a while all of the monkeys became friends. Juveniles of the two species played together, groomed together, and slept in large, mixed huddles. Most importantly, the rhesus monkeys developed peacemaking skills on a par with those of their more tolerant group mates. Even when, at the end of the experiment, both species were separated, the rhesus monkeys still showed three times more reconciliation and grooming behaviors after fights than typical of their kind (de Waal and Johanowicz 1993). Primates thus can adopt social behavior under the influence of others, which opens the door to social culture.

Not unlike rhesus monkeys, baboons have a reputation for fierce competition and nasty fights. With the study by Robert Sapolsky and Lisa Share published in this issue of PLoS Biology, we now have the first field evidence that primates can go the flower power route (Sapolsky and Share 2004). Wild baboons developed an exceptionally pacific social tradition that outlasted the individuals who established it. For years, Sapolsky has documented how olive baboons (Papio anubis) on the plains of the Masai Mara, in Kenya, wage wars of nerves, compromising their rivals' immune systems and pushing up the level of their blood cortisol (Sapolsky 1994). An accident of history, however, selectively wiped out all the male bullies of his main study troop. As a result, the number of aggressive incidents dropped dramatically. This by itself was not so surprising. It became more interesting when it was discovered that the behavioral change was maintained for a decade. Baboon males migrate after puberty, hence fresh young males enter troops all the time, resulting in a complete turn-over of males during the intervening decade. Nevertheless, compared with troops around it, the affected troop upheld its reduced aggression, increased friendly behavior, and exceptionally low stress levels. The conclusion from this natural experiment is that, like human societies, each animal society has its own ecological and behavioral history, which determines its prevalent social style.

It is somewhat ironic that at a time when researchers on human aggression are increasingly attracted, albeit with a far more sophisticated approach, to the Lorenzian idea of a biological basis of aggression (Enserink 2000), students of animal behavior are beginning to look at its possible cultural basis. There is no reason for animals with a development as slow as a baboon (with adulthood achieved in five or six years) not to be influenced in every way by the environment in which they grow up, including the social environment. How this influence takes place is a point of much debate, and remains unclear in the case of the peaceful male baboons in the Masai Mara. Given their mobility, the males themselves are unlikely transmitters of social traditions within their natal troop. Therefore, Sapolsky and Share look at the females for an answer-female baboons stay all their lives in the same troop. By reacting positively to certain kinds of behavior, for example, females may be able to steer male attitudes in a new direction. This complex problem is hard to unravel with a single study, especially in the absence of experimentation. Yet, the main two points of this discovery are loud and clear: social behavior observed in nature may be a product of culture, and even the fiercest primates do not forever need to stay this way.

--------------

Here is the research...

"A Pacific Culture among Wild Baboons: Its Emergence and Transmission" by Robert M. Sapolsky and Lisa J. Share

http://www.plosbiology.org/plosonline/?req...al.pbio.0020106 (http://www.plosbiology.org/plosonline/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0020106)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Professor Moneybags
4th June 2004, 14:44
This is a far more fascinating piece. It's pretty long too, but it is interesting.

Link 1 (http://lonestar.texas.net/~lochness/darwin/chapter_9.html)

Link 2 (http://lonestar.texas.net/~lochness/darwin/chapter_10.html)

Shredder
4th June 2004, 17:25
I'm surviving.

Now what?

Vinny Rafarino
4th June 2004, 21:51
This is a far more fascinating piece. It's pretty long too, but it is interesting.

Link 1 (http://lonestar.texas.net/~lochness/darwin/chapter_9.html)

Link 2 (http://lonestar.texas.net/~lochness/darwin/chapter_10.html)
How exactly is it interesting? Do you even know who "Norman J. Berls" is?

Don't worry, no one else does either; especially in the scientific community. :lol:


Here is what this quack's book is about;


[/QUOTE]
Ayn Rand and Charles Darwin: Resolved Human psychology as a derivative of simian psychology analyzed in the context of Ayn Rand's philosophy of objectivism by Norman J. Berls. [QUOTE]

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 07:55
Thanks for soundly refuting it. That's sure put me back in my place. And Norman too.

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 19:58
Thanks for soundly refuting it

Not that you deserve to be debated with, but here goes. :rolleyes:


Beyond the fact that human beings have emotions and that these emotions play an important role in human motivation, it is clear that we can identify several ubiquitous drives. Among these are things like sex and survival. I doubt that anyone will contest the premise that the drive to survive is paramount

Indivudal survival? I think all those who died trying to save their 'loved ones' may well disagree here.


Suffice it to say that the natural selective processes that have given rise to the human genome necessarily make Survivity the fundamental instinct

Really? I would have thought it far more sensible to assert that reproduction is in fact the major driving instinct - but we'll roll with it, shall we?


Whereas chimps simply pursue their own survival, humans pursue their own survival and the survival of cherished abstractions. For humans the survival of my country, my culture, my race, my gang can and does take on ominous dimensions

This kind of gross generalisation is not 'science'. For it to be so the author would have to insert some kind of case study something that isn't purely rhetoric.


In terms of tetrahedral algebra, the desire to control one's own body (Autonomity), coupled with some external impediment to that control, coupled with an eagerness to impose one's own preferences (Aggressivity), results in resistance behavior. Or if you will, a desire to control one's own body (Autonomity), coupled with the physical need for food, coupled with a desire to control external resources (Territoriality), results in acquisitive behavior

An interesting point - I'm surprised.
I find it intruiging that you post a link emphasising that greed - the fundamental argument used against communism - is not a predefined human instinct, but it in fact as a result of it's surroundings.

Moneybags quoting that society is to blame? Surely not!

In fact, it get's better....


In the context of collectives Autonomity interacts with Hierarchity. Perhaps it can even be argued that Autonomity is the precursor of Hierarchity. One of the reasons one engages in hierarchical struggles is to escape having other people's preferences imposed upon one. From there it is a short step to view other people as mere extensions of one's own body (reattachment) and to want to impose one's preferences on them even as one controls one's own body.

So in fact strong leadership is sourced from this conditioned 'greed'... Yet another convincing argument for communism


In the context of individuals, Territoriality gives rise to the desire for economic gain. Territoriality has been the driving force that has allowed sufficient financial resources to be assembled and funneled into the industrial revolution. Affluence is the most visible consequence of Territoriality's effect on the individual. However not all the effects of Territoriality are positive. Territoriality can be amplified by Aggressivity and boosted by Survivity into a powerful amoral motivational state manifesting itself as a willingness to inflict exploitation and overt slavery

I think the author struggled for a suitable word here... .Territoriality doesn't seem to sit all that well. Not that I can think of another, but any suggestions would be welcomed.

Again though, your own source is outlining the woes of mankind and placing the blame on conditioning rather than instinct. I'm at a loss as to why you posted this article... Do you think we never read this shit?


In the context of collectives, Territoriality can be focused on a geographic area and manifest as the nation. Territoriality can even be detached from the notion of a physical object and reattached to an abstraction like religion or culture. Human history is fraught with examples of human beings going to obsessive extremes in an effort to preserve (i.e. retain possession of) their religion or culture.

Again, something that communism seeks to annihilate. Marx can be quoted as saying that the workers share more in common with their international comrades than with their own bourgious 'countrymen' - This can be taken to mean the end of the 'nation' as we know it, and we all know that organised religion and communism are utterly incompatible.


In the context of the individual, Curiosity seems to be one of the weaker instincts and one that is easily overwhelmed by other more powerful drives. When the subject is something that can be relatively impersonalized, like math, physics etc., people seem to have an easier time setting aside emotional considerations and letting their curiosity evolve into an obsessive mental state. When the subject is something that involves human relationships or the relationship of humans to their environment, objectivity becomes very elusive. My evidence for these assertions is that the physical sciences have allowed us to develop an effective technology for building bridges etc., but the social sciences have yet to provide us with a viable remedy for totalitarianism, war, genocide and exploitation.


Arguably of course the physical sciences have done plenty to remedy those outlined situations. I'll agree that totalitarianism - as covered under heirarchity in this document - has no visible solution, just as with genocide. War and exploitation have been appeased by modern technology - examples being the nuclear missile creating the longest period of 'world peace' in 100 years, and post-industrialisation improvements directly as a result of manual labour being eased by their invention.



Curiosity does not seem to be very effective at driving collective behavior. My evidence is the amount of money in the U.S. federal budget devoted to pure research compared to that allocated for defense and human services.


I fail to see the relevence of the evidence here - why is a competitive research program such as that employed in the US (bearing in mind that several research institutes are generally put on the same 'problem') be used as an example of collective behaviour?

Question: Do the US really spend more on research of a non-military nature than they do on defense?

I think not...


We can fairly say that human sexuality more closely follows the bonobo pattern than the chimpanzee pattern. In the context of the individual, Sexuality in humans operates significantly differently than it does in chimpanzees. Human females don't formally go into estrus although, remnants of estrus have survived in the menstrual cycle and in the form of a cyclically variable interest in sex. Sexuality gives rise to an obsessive mental state in human males. It is not just that human males feel the pressure of hormones and are genetically programmed to be sexually enabled on a continuous basis, but it is that with a MemFac they can remember the pressure from yesterday, the day before that, last week, last month, etc. With a CiFac they can predict that they will experience hormonal pressure tomorrow, next week, etc. With a LogFac they can formally identify hormonal pressure via a concept. This concept gets remembered and assigned a high priority so that in addition to the hormonal pressure itself, the concept gets popped onto the human mental network on a much more frequent basis than hormones alone could accomplish. The result is an obsessive mental state that far exceeds anything experienced by chimpanzee or bonobo males. From the viewpoint of human females, human males often seem more than just interested in sex; they seem insane

Err... nice... any relevence though? :lol:


In the context of collectives, Sexuality plays a conspicuous role. Clearly things like pornography and prostitution owe their existence to Sexuality. Then too, much of human culture is devoted to protocols involving Sexuality (e.g. laws regarding marriage, polygamy, rape, incest, and sodomy). However I think there is a tendency in pop psychology to attribute nearly every human activity to some obtuse application of Sexuality. I suspect this has a lot more to do with male sexual obsession than with plausible cause and effect relationships.



Ditto

That's the first of the first part covered - I'm at work right now so I'll try to post some more comments if/when I get the time

For now though, my master awaits <_<

Vinny Rafarino
6th June 2004, 20:03
This kind of gross generalisation is not &#39;science&#39;.


That is because Normal Berls is not a scientist.

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 21:10
Indivudal survival? I think all those who died trying to save their &#39;loved ones&#39; may well disagree here.

Throw someone in a lake. Do he just give up and drown, or do they struggle to get out ?



Whereas chimps simply pursue their own survival, humans pursue their own survival and the survival of cherished abstractions. For humans the survival of my country, my culture, my race, my gang can and does take on ominous dimensions

This kind of gross generalisation is not &#39;science&#39;. For it to be so the author would have to insert some kind of case study something that isn&#39;t purely rhetoric.

You&#39;re joking, right ?

What do you think made Nazi Germany so dangerous if not it&#39;s aggressive nationalism ("my country") and racism ("my race") ? Or are you disputing that these traits were an "ominous dimension" ?


Arguably of course the physical sciences have done plenty to remedy those outlined situations. I&#39;ll agree that totalitarianism - as covered under heirarchity in this document - has no visible solution, just as with genocide. War and exploitation have been appeased by modern technology - examples being the nuclear missile creating the longest period of &#39;world peace&#39; in 100 years, and post-industrialisation improvements directly as a result of manual labour being eased by their invention.

If you had bothered to read it, you would have read that totalitarianism and genocide do have an antidote; banning the initiation of force.


That is because Normal Berls is not a scientist.

On what grounds do you make that assumption ?

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 21:21
Throw someone in a lake. Do he just give up and drown, or do they struggle to get out ?


Entirely dependant on circumstance and the individual concerned, hence irrelevant.


What do you think made Nazi Germany so dangerous if not it&#39;s aggressive nationalism ("my country") and racism ("my race") ? Or are you disputing that these traits were an "ominous dimension" ?


Then why did the author not refer to these examples? Perhaps this was not what the intended, and as such deliberately avoided such an obvious example.

They were indeed a tad ominous, but I fail to see the relevance to the quote


Whereas chimps simply pursue their own survival, humans pursue their own survival and the survival of cherished abstractions. For humans the survival of my country, my culture, my race, my gang can and does take on ominous dimensions

My argument was that these things are of no consequence to sane humans.


If you had bothered to read it, you would have read that totalitarianism and genocide do have an antidote; banning the initiation of force

It&#39;s a generally accepted theory that whoever has the greater military might will win the battle. The same applies to debate - the greater mind will (generally) triumph. Are you possibly suggesting that totalitarianism would be impossible without force? There are other means of coercion you know...


That is because Normal Berls is not a scientist

Damn straight&#33; This article to me reads more like a blog than a sicentific paper. Out of interest, what was the purpose of it&#39;s creation?

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 21:32
Entirely dependant on circumstance and the individual concerned, hence irrelevant.

Then your example is also "dependant on circumstance and the individual concerned" and is also irrelevent.


Then why did the author not refer to these examples?

He must have assumed that the reader is not totally ignorant.


My argument was that these things are of no consequence to sane humans.

It&#39;s not the "sane" ones that cause the problems, though it is ? Read on.


It&#39;s a generally accepted theory that whoever has the greater military might will win the battle. The same applies to debate - the greater mind will (generally) triumph.

A mind is only as good as it&#39;s ideas.


Are you possibly suggesting that totalitarianism would be impossible without force? There are other means of coercion you know...

Such as ?

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 21:36
See other thread... I think this arguing over three threads is getting a little silly :blink: