Labor Camps

[Colombia]

Can anyone give me some good insight on Ernesto Guevara's labor camps?

[SittingBull47]

I don't know too much about them myself, but I do know he worked harder in them than anybody else. 24/7. working man

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:05 PM
I don't know too much about them myself, but I do know he worked harder in them than anybody else. 24/7. working man
He sent homosexuals, political opponents, and AIDs victims.Why would he work in one himself?

[orallyfixated]

Labor camps? Are you sure? Very interesting... I looked it up and couldn't find any reliable information, but if you know anything more about this topic, please elaborate.

[chebol]

Presumably you're referring to the UMAPs (Military Units to Aid Production). These were created at the initiative of the Cuban Military in 1965, and were scrapped at Fidel's insistence two years later (Che was largely out of the country for this period and had little if anthing to do with them).
The UMAPs were initiated as an alternative to military/ militia service for those deemed unsuitable to be soldiers, as an alternative way for them to contribute to the revolution. This included gays, "delinquents", drug users, and people of 'questionable politics'. The conditions are unclear- they are often claimed to have been atrocious, "like concentration camps without the crematoriums", but these claims come largely from the cuban 'exile' community, who have plenty of reason to paint Cuba in a bad light, and who give me plent of reasons not to listen to them (being a community that has supported the world's longest-running terrorist organisation, the CANF). The UMAPs certainly weren't pleasant, however, and they weren't directed solely at gays (as is often made out), who only made up a very small proportion of the populations.
Nevertheless, the UMAPs represent one of the darker periods of Cuba's revolution- quickly remedied.

[orallyfixated]

These UMAPs sound like Cuban concentration camps to me.

Fidel was aware of these camps two entire years before he put a stop to them?

Minor in comparison to the Batista regime, yes. But shocking nonetheless.

So the undesireables of Cuban society- homosexuals, AIDs sufferers, and political opponents, etc. were forced to work in these camps?
I have heard of similar forced labor incidents after the Cuban Revolution, but these people were also eventually released by Fidel, or they escaped.

Well I'm sure we're all mature enough to realize that not everything after the revolution was "puppies and rainbows" especially not after the U.S. tried to deny Cuba medical supplies as if trade embargoes weren't enough. But if it's true, I think this deserves some mention in history books.

[chebol]

Yes, Fidel was aware of them from inception, but as it became clear that the conditions in the camps were unconscionable, Fidel (and other leaders of the revolution) became opposed to them, finally having them shut down.
I think it's necessary to point out that just because Fidel is the president, (and secretary of the CP), doesn't mean that he can go around dictating terms to the entire country. There are processes- some of beaurocratic degeneration, others of dealing with pre-existing social prejudices, and others still simply of a democratic nature.
Nevertheless, it is hard to gather reliable information on the UMAPs.
I think using the term "concentration camps" is not a useful one, as it conjures images of Nazi Germany and Genocide. This was most certainly NOT the case in Cuba- the UMAPs were an ALTERNATIVE TO MILITARY SERVICE, albeit not an optional one for most. "Internment" was almost entirely only for those of military age, and was a temporary 'service'. If nothing else, the UMAP mistake serve as a reminder not to let the military have a free hand in government (and to avoid listening to Soviet advice).


Also, AIDS sufferers were not included in this process- AIDS was not a recognised illness until much later. (This in itself caused a reaction against- predictably- gays, both inside and outside the Communist Party. Homophobia is still a problem in Cuba, despite there now being a law specifically outlawing this form of discrimination, and years of efforts by some of the more advanced layers of the revolution. And a reminder- when were homosexuals allowed in the military in western countries.......?)

There is some (perhaps misguided) sense of reciprocity at the heart of the UMAPs (as with that of compulsory military service)- that an individual owes something to the society that provides him/her with medical/ educational/ etc security. It must be balanced (eg. there is no reason why homosexuals ought not be allowed in the people's militia, whereas an avowed anti-communist might be a different matter), and meet realistic needs. Cuba had little need for MORE beaurocrats (as is the option in germany, for example), but did require a boost in productivity to combat the political and economic superiority of the US and the capitalist system.

NOTE: This is not necessarily a defence of the UMAPs, just a rushed attempt at an explanation.

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 04:34 PM
He sent homosexuals, political opponents, and AIDs victims.Why would he work in one himself?
AIDS didnt exist in Che's time, so Che could not have send AIDS patients to labour camps.

Here, just look at this timeline: http://www.aegis.com/topics/timeline/default.asp

[siare]

Aids did exist in che's time, however it wasn't 'discovered' untill 1981

[CubanFox]

Which means that they couldn't've sent people to camps in the 60's for it.

And as for homophobia; it, along with the entire machismo concept, is pretty common throughout much of Latin American manhood.

But in regards to this sort of thing, you musn't kid yourself: post revolution, this sort of thing would need to happen. People would need to be punished for assorted pre-revolution crimes.

Naturally, not the sort of thing the UMAPs catered for; homosexuality isn't a crime, teenage delinquents don't need to be put in prison, drug addicts need treatment.

Members of Fortune 500 boards, fascists, that sort of people.

[volkan]

That's really great of mr. "Colombia" to through a question like this on these forums.
Shouldn't we first think of why he does?

I'm not against exploring events that happened and why. But this is not really an objectively asked question is it?


Can anyone give me some good insight on Ernesto Guevara's labor camps?

How were it Che's camps?


He sent homosexuals, political opponents, and AIDs victims.Why would he work in one himself?

Well, do i need to say more about your motivations? Just the fact Aids is in the list says it all doesn't it?



I don't think it's right to post topics if you can't be objective because of "personal traumas". I can't judge the FARC in colombia because them well enough, but it doesn't make che a bad man.



a humble revolutionary

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 07:26 AM
That's really great of mr. "Colombia" to through a question like this on these forums.
Shouldn't we first think of why he does?

I'm not against exploring events that happened and why. But this is not really an objectively asked question is it?



How were it Che's camps?



Well, do i need to say more about your motivations? Just the fact Aids is in the list says it all doesn't it?



I don't think it's right to post topics if you can't be objective because of "personal traumas". I can't judge the FARC in colombia because them well enough, but it doesn't make che a bad man.



a humble revolutionary
Because Ernesto came up with the plan of labor camps.

So I was wrong about AIDS forgive me.I am not a pro on the STD.

Personal traumas?You have no clue how life was like back in Colombia.Have you ever lived in a war torn country?

[volkan]

I'm not judging the war itself and how awfull it must be. Just that it would be wrong to blame Che for it. Also, because you have such strong emotional involvement in whats happening in Colombia you are simply not able to take things in perspective. That's what war does, it makes everything black and white, and the ones that have hurt you are black, because you could never be black.

I'm saying all this without judging you, FARC or Colombia as a whole. This is merely a fact of life.

I don't go to a website dedicated to a historical person and post there to say how bad of a guy he was because he indirectly made war in my country. That's what you would call "unethical".

DON'T COME HERE AND TELL PEOPLE THAT CHE WAS A BAD GUY!!!!!!


volkan

[Micah EL Layl]

peace....
number one anyone who says a bad thing
about CHe will catch a bad one....so watch out....
Felix Rodriguez will tell you....
but i think someone already made the important
point that Che worked much harder than those
in the Labor Camps.........

[fernando]

Felix Rodriguez is a traitor...I would gladly kill him and piss on his grave, yes this might sound childish and extreme, but there should be no mercy for traitors colaborating with the enemy against La Patria Grande, VIVA LA REVOLUCION! VIVA GUEVARA!

[Subversive Pessimist]

That&#39;s great. <_< I didn&#39;t know Che did this. :( Uhm, eh, uhm: again... Did he really put people in... concentration camps/prison camps? :unsure: Che, I know you&#39;re dead, but: You&#39;ve lost my respect. I looked up to you. Now you just... suck. You&#39;ve dissapointed me. :(

[fernando]

every good person has his bad sides...

Everybody sees Winston Churchil as the great prime minister who helped end World War 2 and he was so good bla bla bla...well he invented the concentration camps, they were first used by the British in South Africa against the Boeren.

Kennedy is seen as such a great president, again overrated, he got the world closer to a termo-nuclear war than anyone did, he started the Vietnam war.

[Micah EL Layl]

peace...
indeed Felix deserves the worst punishment possible....
a bullet in the head would be too humane....
anyways.....that devil was involved in watergate
and iran contra.....
and to restate....CHE DID MORE WORK every day
than those people in the "camps".....
but if you want to believe US imperialist propaganda
well go right ahead.....
you are no worse than these idiots in here who
think they are communist revolutionaries when
in fact they are anti revolutionaries.....
so don&#39;t worry my son.....your just bad....
these anti-revolutionaries are UGLY...
and God don&#39;t like UGLY.....
God can tolerate BAD....

[chebol]

LET&#39;S GET THIS CLEAR FOR THE LAST TIME- THE CAMPS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH CHE GUEVARA. HE WAS OUT OF THE COUNTRY (AFRICA AND BOLIVIA) TRYING TO SPREAD THE REVOLUTION. THE UMAPs WERE THE INITIATIVE OF THE ARMY: NOT CHE.

[_asdf]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 01:52 AM
Presumably you&#39;re referring to the UMAPs (Military Units to Aid Production). These were created at the initiative of the Cuban Military in 1965,
If this is true... it did indeed start in 1965, then Che would have had nothing to do with that. Fidel and he had already split- Che had little (if that) control of Cuban affairs.
I don&#39;t really know anything about these camps, I&#39;m just going from what I have read in this forum and what I know about Che.

[chebol]

Che and Fidel didn&#39;t "split". That&#39;s another of these rumours based on nothing but overactive minds and underactive politics. :P

[fernando]

"split" is sort of a relative concept, I mean Castro stayed in Cuba, while Guevara wanted to spread the Revolution around the world

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 03:57 PM
I&#39;m not judging the war itself and how awfull it must be. Just that it would be wrong to blame Che for it. Also, because you have such strong emotional involvement in whats happening in Colombia you are simply not able to take things in perspective. That&#39;s what war does, it makes everything black and white, and the ones that have hurt you are black, because you could never be black.

I&#39;m saying all this without judging you, FARC or Colombia as a whole. This is merely a fact of life.

I don&#39;t go to a website dedicated to a historical person and post there to say how bad of a guy he was because he indirectly made war in my country. That&#39;s what you would call "unethical".

DON&#39;T COME HERE AND TELL PEOPLE THAT CHE WAS A BAD GUY&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;


volkan
I never said Ernesto was to blame for the civil war in Colombia.But how can someone who has never before faced something such as war be perspective and yet understand what it is like?


Last I checked I lived in the great country known as USA and I have the right of free speech so I can come here and say what I wish.