European Elections 04

[Edelweiss]

Who of all members here who are living in EU states is gonna vote in the upcoming European elections? And if you gonna vote, what will you vote?

[Invader Zim]

I dunno, I am not voting for Blair, and I sure as hell am not voting conservative.

Lib Dems capitalism with a slightly nicer face... I think not.

I will probably vote for the Respect Coalition or Green.

[James]

Conservatives are the only real party which is against binding political union. Thus i'm probably voting tory... even though it feels so wrong.

Those standing for the North West of England:

British National Party
Conservatives
English Democrats Party
Green Party
Liberal Democrats
Liberal Party
Prolife
Respect The Unity Coalition
The Countryside Party
Labour
UK Independence Party
Independant - Ronald Alan Neal


How about you malte?

[Shane]

Greenparty

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

Respect Coalition. I'm a member and the poster who said the Tories were the only party against binding political union...join Respect if you're a socialist and help shape our policy. The EU is a bosses club, obviously, and we're against the Euro so you might want to rethink.

[RedAnarchist]

I'm in the North West too (my family got our ballots last thirsday, so i dont know why there has been all these delays)

I was going to vote either Green, RESPECT-Unity or Liberal Democrats.

I voted LD, but this was only because they are the biggest out of the three - damage control voting - and i would like to see the RESPECT party grow a bit bigger for next year's general elections.



British National Party - Nazi scum
Conservatives - Capitalist and backwards
English Democrats Party - Pathetic little nationalists
Green Party - Environmentalism good, but not left-wing enough
Liberal Democrats - Left-wing in a way
Liberal Party - Little known
Prolife - Anti-abortion idiots
Respect The Unity Coalition - New left-wing party. Need to grow a bit bigger
The Countryside Party - Right-wing rural freaks
Labour - To call these Tories Labour is a terrible insult to Socialism
UK Independence Party - BNP allies. No clue about politics
Independant - Ronald Alan Neal - I've never heard of him and know nothing about his politics

[Funky Monk]

Im tempted to go for the independant, just for the hell of it.
Cant find anything about him, don't know what he stands for, but he's my type of guy.

[Comrade Raz]

i wont vote. As i see it all the major parties are as bad as each other. I definatly would not vote for the Lib Dems.

If i have tro vote i would vote Unity. I know one of the guys who is standing near where i live pretty well, and hes a good guy but i am not a big fan of Galloway, with his five houses and 15 posh cars.

Elections are fairly pointless as far as i can see, when there is no big leftist parties standing.

[Kez]

Labour, thus voting for a workers party and helping fight the fascists. I hope the "socialists" here feel guilty when BNP candidates get in and RESPECT, GREEN, LD all split the anti-fascist vote.

[Louis Pio]

My problem with RESPECT is also that they seem to be mostly focusing on George Galloway, a rather shady moneygrubbing character. As far as I heard they use his face on everything. Also the way they have watered down their policy to suit MAB is horrible.
In my oppinion SWP (the biggest force behind RESPECT) has agreed with the sentiment of the rightwing labour leaders that socialism looses votes.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Im in NW England like most people in this thread so far.

I've already voted, I voted for the green party becuase they were the only party who were really acceptable.


Green Party - Environmentalism good, but not left-wing enough

That's quite amusing considering that you voted lib dem, have you actually read the green parties manifesto, along with respect they are by far the most left wing party running.

I might have considered voting for r.e.s.p.e.c.t. if they spent half as much time making policies as they did making posters, they didn't raise george galloway to the level of a diety and weren't completely consumed by their hatred of tony blair.

Nobody seems to know what the independant is like, I couldn't find anything about him either.

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

I'm a member of Respect and was at the founding conference. The person who said Labour was a workers party has clearly been living under a rock for the past decade. Give me one example of Labour doing something important for workers and I'll maybe believe you. If people are voting merely on the basis of anti-fascism, then I'd say Lib Dem, but to say we shouldn't vote Respect to not split the anti-fascist vote is utter garbage.

I don't think Respect is concentrating too much on George Galloway. I disagree with a lot of his policies but he's at least got some conviction, unlike just about every other politician who was against the war until the moment the bombs started dropping. Why should socialism lose votes? And "watering down"...its a coalition, would you rather the SWP ran for office on its agenda and didn't draw people into its politics? It seems a pretty good way of building the anti-war left!

[James]

On my ballot paper it even says "Respect The Unity Coalition (George Galloway)"

I can't see how anyone can like the guy.

[Funky Monk]

The selection is much better than local elections though, i got 9 candidates, 3 from each major party.


I think the general opinion is tht Galloway is a shit and i dont think the party are doing themselves any favours by making so much of him, i mean they even have his name in brackets on the ballot paper.

For the people in England: What do you think of the system, to my mind the postal ballot seems so much more complicated than the standard system, definately going to turn voters off.

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

Sorry for the double post, but...

"Half as much time making policies as they do making posters". But you'll happily vote for the Greens, whose policies are still, after attending an election hustings, unknown to me. It's a ridiculous thing to say, and just suggests you've not bothered reading any of the leaflets we've sent out or bothered to find out for yourself.

And how is George Galloway elevated to the position of deity? Provide me with some evidence of how this has been done. i understand its much easier on the left to snipe than actually do something positive, and that's what you've done, but provide some basis for your ridiculous assertions.

[James]

1) on the electoral broadcast - what a muppet
2) on the leaflet (he isn't even standing in the NW; but still has a whole page on him being a muppet)
3) on the ballot paper (why put him in brackets?)
4) in interviews

conclusion
you well bum him!


FM is right - associating with him to such an extent will turn many voters off. Who gnerally dislike him. On account of him being a muppet.

[Misodoctakleidist]

"Half as much time making policies as they do making posters". But you'll happily vote for the Greens, whose policies are still, after attending an election hustings, unknown to me. It's a ridiculous thing to say, and just suggests you've not bothered reading any of the leaflets we've sent out or bothered to find out for yourself.

Actually, I took the time to read respect's european mannifesto and the green party's european mannifesto, the policies of the green party were very clear, much clearer and more numerous than those of respect. The first few paragraphs of respect's mannifesto is "we hate blair blah blah blah."


And how is George Galloway elevated to the position of deity? Provide me with some evidence of how this has been done.

Err...his name in brackets after the name of the party. As someone already mentioned he's not even running in the NW and yet his name is on the ballot paper.

[Misodoctakleidist]

RESPECT (George Galloway) European Mannifesto (http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=225)

A very short vague effort entitled "A referendum on Blair"

The Green Party European Mannifesto (http://www.greenparty.org.uk/files/manifesto/EuroManifesto2004.pdf)

A much longer more detailed document.

[Hate Is Art]

If I was old enough I would vote Green, but being underage I can't :(

I agree with everyone who says George Galloway is an arse! Isn't he like a millionaire or something! Very Socialist!

[James]

I actually agree with comrade kamo (regarding respect).

I like alot of labour policies - but i REALLY dislike the political union OBSESSION. The left is really loosing out here; if blair made a bigger deal of his "red lines" (issues which he says he refuses to "hand over") and SERIOUSLY reneogtiated those agricultural policies - the i'd vote labour. But instead, i'm going to have to vote tory. :(

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

Err...his name in brackets after the name of the party. As someone already mentioned he's not even running in the NW and yet his name is on the ballot paper.
And this is the evidence you require of the deification of him? I was a bit surprised when I saw his name on the ballot paper myself, but don't think it's enough to think Galloway has been deified by the coalition. I'm not trying to be awkward, but is that all the evidence you have? As Respect is a brand new coalition, and Galloway has some public recognition, he's a useful start to a conversation, but if you think anyone is voting for Respect purely because Galloway is a member than I worry about your view of the people of the UK.


The first few paragraphs of respect's mannifesto is "we hate blair blah blah blah."
Thanks for the analysis. I think the disgust at the lies of the Prime Minister is a pretty good place to start. Labour has a 100 year head start and millions of pounds, so people who think of themselves as good left-wingers will vote Labour out of habit, hate for the Tories, or whatever. The Greens (whose manifesto I've read too) have more policies, but you make no value judgment on those policies, as if you're just impressed by the size and clarity of the document. The UK Independence Party, which has millionaire backers, probably has a clear manifesto. Feel like voting for them?

[Hate Is Art]

Don't be so stupid.

I won't vote for a rich socialist because its ridiculous. A rich socialist is a capitilist!

Don't be an idiot with those rhetorical UKIP comments.

[The Children of the Revolution]

I will be voting for the "Green" Party - as I did in the local elections.

Whoever said they weren't left wing enough... Absurd! Perhaps they're not quite Communists; but they pursue a clear Socialist agenda. Far more so then the Lib Dems - or "Labour", for that matter. They seem to be safely on the side of the workers, in any case.

Interestingly enough, if you believe what the "political compass" website says, the BNP emerge as a left-wing party. Having read their manifesto - well, I am forced to agree! Of course, they happen to be racist thugs as well. And yes, they must be stopped at all costs. Just a random aside...

By the way - I received two opportunities to vote by post, for some reason. Can anyone tell me why? One was from my home town, in the South - the other from whichever region my University happens to be in! I'm assuming that I couldn't have swindled two votes out of the system - but how would they know? :ph34r:

[Hate Is Art]

Interestingly enough, if you believe what the "political compass" website says, the BNP emerge as a left-wing party. Having read their manifesto - well, I am forced to agree! Of course, they happen to be racist thugs as well. And yes, they must be stopped at all costs. Just a random aside...

The BNP aren't left-wingers? What on earth made you think that?

[monkeydust]

The BNP aren't left-wingers? What on earth made you think that?

He said according to the "political compass".

And it's true, economically they're more left than Labour at the moment, they're in favour of renewed nationalisation, for example.

Though they're not exactly the "workers party" are they?


Personally, I will not be voting.

[BOZG]

Most Nazi groups have a left sounding programme to entice workers and those who oppose the establishment. Hitler did it with the SA.

[James]

They have several policies which are left wing, in the economic sense of the word.
Here are some of the slogans they have. You can read up on these if you visit the website. (http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies.html)


ECONOMY - British workers first!
HEALTH - first-class healthcare for all!
TRANSPORT - time to invest!
ENVIRONMENT - NO to pollution!
PENSIONERS - pensioners before asylum seekers!

[shakermaker]

i will vote!
i think it's quite useless to vote, 'cos they probably get nothing done there, but anyway i'm still going to vote...
and i'm going to vote a communist party.

[Kez]

some interesting (and strange) views here.

Heres an article on respect:
http://www.socialist.net/html/respect.html
Also, why are we building a popular (broad) front (movement)?
Surely we should build a mass movement under OUR IDEAS not some fuckwit mullah (http://members.lycos.co.uk/HEYSA/Respect%20Euro%20Press%20release.htm), or petit bourgeoise bastard?
This is, once again, SWP opportunism and trechery.
How many people must join these pseudo socialist movements and drop out because of its bullshitness? The SWP has a huge membership turnover, in fact, could everyone who has once been a member, say so? And the reason is due to piss poor theory and piss poor methodology.

Clearly the BNP is one thing in theory, but quite another in practice, it would NEVER renationalise anything, make non-whites pay for NHS service and the rest is gonna be bollocks anyway. Capitalism has failed the pensioners with its inherent contradictions, i dont see the BNP smashing capitalism

Why should we vote Labour?
-Its the only party which can defeat the Tories and BNP safely (in those cases where its 3rd behind Tories and LD we should vote LD)
-It is the party which the workers organisations (unnions) has more power over (and dont give me no shit about 7 branches of the RMT giving money to RESPECT)

[AC-Socialist]

Why should we vote Labour? They have sold out socialism, they have taken us to war, they have lied to us, they are causing strikes with their overtly mangerial view on the class, they havent withdrawn the tory anti-union laws. Kamo, please dont vote Labour, you will be JUST as bad as James - voting Conservative.

The Greens dont represent socialism, at a hiustings last week i was told by a green councilor and tha GLA constituent that the Green party are NOT a socialist party, they have muddled their policies to reflect a more "widely appealing set of principles" sound familiar? "The 3rd way" anyone?

It is the RESPECT coalition in which I would ask you to invest your support. RESPECT has achieved a small miricle since it was launced only 5 MONTHS AGO. The RESPECT office has had to install literaly dozens upon dozens of new phone lines to cope with the volume of calls pledging support and wanting to find out more information. Within these past moths the coalition has recived mass union support as diesnfranchised past labour unions such as the RMT flock to RESPECT, a new political force actually currently fighting for working people. The S in RESPECT stands for socialism, the ONLY party affiliating itself directly with the socialist movement in the GLA and European elections. Moreover some RESPECT candidates have made a historical sacrifice never before seen in British politics. GLA candidates such as Salvinder Singh Dhillon (a marxist comrade) standing the the Ealing-Hillingdon constituncey have signes a legal document stipulating that they are subject to an immediate ballot of confidence if they fail to show deliverence on any one of REPSECTS manifesto pledges - an iniciative that the Labour and Tory parties wouldnt even bother contemplating.

The RESPECT coalition is THE party for anyone who marched on Feb 13th, its THE party for those wanting an IMMEDIATE end to the war and its THE party for those who want a voice for anti-privatization and anti-capitalism in this country and in europe!!! LABOUR CANT AND WONT GIVE THIS TO YOU

[Kez]

"Why should we vote Labour? They have sold out socialism, they have taken us to war, they have lied to us, they are causing strikes with their overtly mangerial view on the class, they havent withdrawn the tory anti-union laws. Kamo, please dont vote Labour, you will be JUST as bad as James - voting Conservative."

-Those accusations you throw at Labour belong solely to the Blairites, who are minority inside the party.
-They have withdrawn some of the anti-trade union laws, and not more due to the scummy right wing trade union leaders who didnt push for more.
-It is very naive to suggest Labour and Conservatives are the same, when there are clear differences in their history, their ideas, and importantly their make up

The Green party are NOT a socialist party, they have muddled their policies to reflect a more "widely appealing set of principles" sound familiar?"
-Yes, like STWC and RESPECT, only minus the prick son of a ***** as leader, who refuses (and has the backing of Lindsey German head of SWP) to accept a workers salary, how very socialist, he also travels in a Limo...like all us workers do it seems.

Comrade Chris,
I know members of RESPECT mean well, but, lets take a common example, that there is a close tie between BNP and Labour, and RESPECT also stand, who would you vote for in that election race?

Mass union support? the RMT is the 5th biggest union, and you have a handful of branches, please do not call that mass union support, i hardly think this is a flocking movement to RESPECT.

Labour CAN give this, but it wont, coz its got a cuunt hair for a leader. Mission: To get rid of the shite by kicking him out.

[Frederick_Engles]

The communist Party of Great Britain support respect, surely any communist of voting age should vote for them?

[Kez]

why is that?

just because they have the term "socialist" in their name?
Whose party is it?
Who is in the party?

[Frederick_Engles]

hey its what the cpgb say not me

[Kez]

then fuck the CPGB

[AC-Socialist]

Blarites the minority? whatever happend to democratic centeralism and towing the party line comrade kamo? Please give me the names of the majority who advocate similarly radical policies to RESPECT?

Are sole deisgreement is always going to boil down to the labour party itself, I do not belive, contrary to your belif that the labour party will ever again see anything remotely represoentative of the people RESPECT aides. The sucess of respective labour leaders in ever diluting the principles of the labour party and its allegence to the class has caused an irreversable shift to the right, and the partisan allegence and legacy in which Blarism has established itself.

PEOPLE ARE DISENFRANCHISED WITH LABOUR NOW, they wont wait until some miricle occurs and labour makes a complete U-turn on the changes its made over the past 50 years. And you ciritisise Galloway for doing this? Yes he doesnt take a workers wage, but did Atlee or Callaghan? Sure hes been a bit of a rouge, but there is nothing he has said he has been wrong over or were not true. Tony Benn called him the "best socialist and democrat of his generation"!

[VincentValentine]

I dont know who I should vote for, im pro the Euro currency and a united Europe. I am a communist also.

James you are a fuck head and I hope you die a slow painfull death, vote the tories? they want a more american style capitalism, talk about make a bad situation worse.

[Frederick_Engles]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 09:25 PM
then fuck the CPGB
Fuck the communist Party of Great Britain????? wtf

[Kez]

"Blarites the minority? whatever happend to democratic centeralism and towing the party line comrade kamo? Please give me the names of the majority who advocate similarly radical policies to RESPECT?"

-I dont think those with radical views are in power, so i couldnt give you the names, but theres one or 2 just in my branch...and i live in a shitty Tory town, so in urban areas will be much more
-My loyalty is not to the Labour Leadership, fuck em. The sole reason im in here is to be where the workers are, if they move to RESPECT (which they wont) then id go work in respect.

"Are sole deisgreement is always going to boil down to the labour party itself, I do not belive, contrary to your belif that the labour party will ever again see anything remotely represoentative of the people RESPECT aides. The sucess of respective labour leaders in ever diluting the principles of the labour party and its allegence to the class has caused an irreversable shift to the right, and the partisan allegence and legacy in which Blarism has established itself."

-What proof is there to show its irreversible?
-The proof its shifting left is the growing backbench groups, and the strengthening of openly socialist factions in the Parliamentary Labour Party, something like Campaign for Socialist something or another, and these are MP's, and this was while the right wing Trade Union leaders were still in power, imagine how it will be with the continuation of the swing to the left in the uunions.
-A huge shift to the right waswitnessed under Callaghan, how come within 5 years we had one of the most left wing Labour leaders ever? Events comrade, Events.

Im very surprised at Benns comments, when did he say this?
Of course people are disenfranchised with Labour, due to Blairism, but what will happen when Blairism is removed?
If they go when Blairism is there, surely they will return when Blairism goes? In which case, the noble work you are doing now is a complete and utter waste of time?

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 09:31 PM
I dont know who I should vote for, im pro the Euro currency and a united Europe. I am a communist also.

James you are a fuck head and I hope you die a slow painfull death, vote the tories? they want a more american style capitalism, talk about make a bad situation worse.
Easy on James, true, its an awful mistake to make, but u cant isolate him from the cause can u? Should win him back...

Anyway. Open a new thread on the Euro currency and a United Europe, i dont think any socialist should support either.

[New Direction]

I will be voting for the Scottish Socialist Party.

[Kez]

despite their shift to the right? trying to win SNP votes (and MP's)?

[New Direction]

Yes, it is a little disturbing how they have tried to poach one or two SNP MSP's. However, they are still the only party to vote for if you are on the left of the political spectrum.

As such a young party it is remarkable how well they are doing and I genuinely believe that they are on the side of the working class and not just gaining on the back of political opportunitsm.

What do you think?

[Kez]

I think its a good party, although im not sure how well it will do when workers start to vote actively for solutions.

However, they must never appease nationalism, socialism is international only.

[New Direction]

One of their main goals though is an independent Socialist Scotland within Europe.

Doesn't really reconcile with socialism being international!

[BOZG]

Kamo,

A few of the local organisers of the SSP have joined our Scottish section. The right shift has really been only at the very top.

[Kez]

for sure, i agree it is the leadership and not grassroots that wants to win over the nationalist tendencies, but wont the policy dilution of the SSP result in a make up dilution of the SSP?

[VincentValentine]

Originally posted by Kez+Jun 3 2004, 09:38 PM--> (Kez @ Jun 3 2004, 09:38 PM)
[email protected] 3 2004, 09:31 PM
I dont know who I should vote for, im pro the Euro currency and a united Europe. I am a communist also.

James you are a fuck head and I hope you die a slow painfull death, vote the tories? they want a more american style capitalism, talk about make a bad situation worse.
Easy on James, true, its an awful mistake to make, but u cant isolate him from the cause can u? Should win him back...

Anyway. Open a new thread on the Euro currency and a United Europe, i dont think any socialist should support either. [/b]
Im far left communist, not semi left socialist

[James]

Well can you tell me who i should (or rather, who else can i) vote for if i'm against mandatory complete political union?

I'm in the north west; so please select one of the candidates in the list on page 1. Thank you.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by Sideshow Luke [email protected] 3 2004, 03:15 PM

Err...his name in brackets after the name of the party. As someone already mentioned he's not even running in the NW and yet his name is on the ballot paper.
And this is the evidence you require of the deification of him? I was a bit surprised when I saw his name on the ballot paper myself, but don't think it's enough to think Galloway has been deified by the coalition. I'm not trying to be awkward, but is that all the evidence you have? As Respect is a brand new coalition, and Galloway has some public recognition, he's a useful start to a conversation, but if you think anyone is voting for Respect purely because Galloway is a member than I worry about your view of the people of the UK.


The first few paragraphs of respect's mannifesto is "we hate blair blah blah blah."
Thanks for the analysis. I think the disgust at the lies of the Prime Minister is a pretty good place to start. Labour has a 100 year head start and millions of pounds, so people who think of themselves as good left-wingers will vote Labour out of habit, hate for the Tories, or whatever. The Greens (whose manifesto I've read too) have more policies, but you make no value judgment on those policies, as if you're just impressed by the size and clarity of the document. The UK Independence Party, which has millionaire backers, probably has a clear manifesto. Feel like voting for them?
You know very well why i commented on clarity and length, it was in response to your claim that the green party had no clear policies. As you can see, if you read the two mannifestos, the green party have much better policies than RESPECT (George Galloway).

[Kez]

Why dont you vote Labour to defeat the BNP and Tories, then join LAbour and join the ranks who are also against European Political Unity?

[James]

kamo, because i don't like the labour line on political union (they seem to be only a little less enthusiastic than the lib dems). Did you see i replied to your indian thread?



Whats the green's line on the political union? I thought they were all for it; but last nights "Question Time" left me feeling unsure. I'm voting green in my locals.

Sadly though it seems the guy is unlikely to get elected because he's stated in his manifesto that he's all for a local wind farm proposal. A local "Say No" campaign is developing, they have some environmental arguments (birds fly into them... apparently) and efficency claims - but it seems to me that it's more about property prices and general NIMBY attitudes (i'm personally all for the wind farm).

Yeah so anyway, whats the green's attitude toward the EU in general? My computer won't let me load up the manifesto for some reason.

[kingbee]

i will be voting plaid cymru in the local elections (because its always between them and the tories), and respect in the european ones. i feel a duty to, cos i sent an email of support to george galloway during the oil smear campaign, and got details of respect when it was formed back. and an email from his office saying cheers.

[h&s]

James, I seem to remember the Green leaflet being quite anti-Europe - I think they are against the constitution, and they are against the EU's role as a means of aiding big-business.

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 10:31 AM
kamo, because i don't like the labour line on political union (they seem to be only a little less enthusiastic than the lib dems).
Im against a political union also...still i vote Labour, because i know it is a battleground to fight against a politiocal union, whereas beiong outside Labour enables you to do...fuck all.

[James]

But you are electing individuals who are fighting for integration.

It does seem to make sense to be in the labour party and try to change it from the inside - but not, in my humble opinion, to give your consent to a manifesto you disgaree with.

[Kez]

but at the same time, i think, it is better to give a temporary mandate to right wing tendency of a Left Party, than to split the vote and allow fascists in.

Theres 2 reasons to vote here, one for prefered party, one for anti-fascism, and i think the antiu-fascism one in the long run is a more important reason to vote

[James]

Ah well here we come to a dead end i guess - as you know, i'm of the opinion that change can only come through if the party looses. Otherwise there is a natural "no need" for change.


I don't think the BNP could do much if they got into the EU parliament. At most they will between 3 and 5 candidates (although i think they will get 1 or 2). I imagine you are also refering to other parties... i don't consider the UKIP fascist - nor will they be able to pull britain out with the few members they can get elected.

[Kez]

i dont consider the UKIP fascist, although the members are right wing nutters.

You say u cant change leadership without party being out ofpower, what u thnk of Thatchers deemise?

[James]

I put it down to the cabinet, and herself. She became out of touch.

Who replaced her? It was still the same leadership if you ask me

[Kez]

So you admit it is possible to get leader out while party is still in power? Which is pretty impressive since when a party is in power generally the credit goes to leadership...

[Funky Monk]

But what do you think of the idea that no strong leadership can emmerge from the demise of a leader whilst in power?

I mean leaders go because of general resentment which would naturally get inherited by the next leader, I mean Major had a load of anti-Conservative feeling to contend with and only won the election arguably because of suprise electoral tactics and a poor opposition.

I can't see a strong Labour leadership being in power after Tony has left.

[James]

face changed - but it was still thatcherism.

[Maynard]

I don't live in Europe, I have heard though, there could well be a low turn out, which usually favours those on the right side, which is not a good sign.

I think it's possible to have a change in leadership and still be successful, Paul Keating did it here in Australia also, he was also a member of the Labor party. It is more likely too happen if some one has been in power for awhile and the public have the idea that a new face will bring fresh, new ideas.



I seem to remember the Green leaflet being quite anti-Europe
The Greens are opposed to the Euro, the constitution and wants to "ban GM foods and crops from Europe, and is behind campaigns on climate change and is anti nuclear energy." I don't know if that's anti Europe for you all though.

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 01:21 AM
face changed - but it was still thatcherism.
not the point at all, point is its quite possible to change leadership while leader is in power.

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

Kez, you seem to be living in some sort of wonderful dream world where left-wingers can change Labour from the inside. It's an extremely weak argument. Did Militant manage to change Labour from the inside? Or did they get thrown out? Come on, you're going to have to do better than that.

Name me a left-wing policy Labour have implemented since being in power. One. Name me one significant thing this substantial socialist faction inside the Labour party have done- like the vote on tuition fees? When they submitted to the government, as they've done again and again. Blunkett talks of floods of immigrants and is without a doubt the most racist Home Secretary Labour has ever had. What have you achieved by being inside Labour?

The Labour party, with all these socialists you mention, still voted Tony Blair as its leader when there was someone with at least socialist rhetoric standing against him. You seem to be failing, and failing badly, Kez. They still voted in favour of an imperialist war in Iraq, tuition fees, and have still failed to get fox hunting banned. Are you proud to be a member of a party which did that?

You're just another in a long line of people who bash the SWP from the safety of the internet, where it looks like your comments are on an equal footing to those of other people, while doing nothing and building nothing. And where do you get your information about the high membership turnover of the SWP from?

Criticising Respect as a front, when other people are criticising Respect for deifying George Galloway, seems strange. Three leading members of Respect are Galloway, Mark Serwotka (general secretary of the PCS) and filmmaker Ken Loach, none of whom are members of the SWP or would even agree with most of our policies. But now you'll criticise Respect for relying too much on them, or something else.

The Labour party has no internal democracy at all any more. Kez seems to think the Unions still have some power inside it- where's the block vote these days? Or clause 4 of the Constitution? How many times have we seen Conference vote on an issue then the NEC, or the Leadership, completely reject it?

I'm a member of Respect, and perfectly happy to be. I've no problems with the internal democracy, and although I think Respect doesn't go as far as I'd like, I understand not everyone wants to go as far as me but am completely willing to work alongside them and talk to them about politics.

This, like most other socialist sites on the internet, seems to have inordinate amounts of SWP bashing on it, bashing that always goes on from the sidelines from people and organisations that don't go out and build, have tiny memberships but are allowed to look bigger thanks to the internet.

Last point: one of the earlier posts quoted an article which said we should build a mass movement on our own policies, not those watered down ones of Respect. Well, there's a very simple rejoinder to this statement: where is this mass movement you're supposed to be building? Have you not had enough time yet? If you keep saying you should build it, maybe you should go out and start?

[Kez]

"Kez, you seem to be living in some sort of wonderful dream world where left-wingers can change Labour from the inside. It's an extremely weak argument. Did Militant manage to change Labour from the inside? Or did they get thrown out? Come on, you're going to have to do better than that."
-This wonderful dream, its already been achieved time and time again, and we'll do it AGAIN. For a recent example see Callaghan, what a right wing bastard he was, then within a very short space of time we had a very left wing leader (in the for of M. Foot)
-What did we in Militant achieve? Well, for a start we had control of Liverpool and many other councils. We convinced the workers in the party to push for radical policy.
-What else did we achieve, we got 10,000 members by 1989, this is around 7-8 times more members than you have now.
-We were not kicked out, only a hundred or so members were kicked out, after which we made the fatalistic mistake of getting out of the party. Now those outside the party have 1000 members tops, most of which remain from the Militant days...according to them in 1992 they were going to rise "leaps and bounds". Well, they (Socialist Party as theyre now called) managed to lose 5000 members from their start, lost a lot of their money (forcing them to sell our main HQ building)
Please get your facts straight

"Name me a left-wing policy Labour have implemented since being in power. One. Name me one significant thing this substantial socialist faction inside the Labour party have done- like the vote on tuition fees? When they submitted to the government, as they've done again and again. Blunkett talks of floods of immigrants and is without a doubt the most racist Home Secretary Labour has ever had. What have you achieved by being inside Labour? "
-Taking back a few anti-TU legislation
-Bringing in and increasing minimum wage
-New Tuition fees is actually much easier than the current system
-Lifting a million children out of poverty
-What have the SWP achieved? Appart from rear entrance from the MAB?

-The reason for only a few pieces of legislation getting through is due to the right wing trade unions, who only in the last 2 years have been getting rid of their right wing leaders. Sir Ken Jackson was a flat mate of Tony's, do you expect him to push for more from Labour? Fuck no. Thats why the workers got rid of this son of a *****.
-When Trade Unions radicalise, it becomes reflected in the Labour Party.
-Do you think the recent 2 years of Turmoil for the Labour Party is just in coincidence with the fact that more trade union members are becomeing more radical and the leaders are changing from right wing to near socialist? The Union leaders now explicitly use the term socialism for their aims of the future, this may be rhetoric, but its a stage in between right wing, and real socialist leaders.
-The trade unions used to be right wing, do you propse we set up new unions? Or do we fight in the traditional organisations of the workers?
-what have i achieved by being inside the LP? Ive won over a couple of people from the local Labour Party Branch, and i live in a shitty Tory town, ie the local labour branch isnt exactly radical and ive won a couple of people over, and the reason is workers look to the Labour Party when they want change.

"The Labour party, with all these socialists you mention, still voted Tony Blair as its leader when there was someone with at least socialist rhetoric standing against him. You seem to be failing, and failing badly, Kez. They still voted in favour of an imperialist war in Iraq, tuition fees, and have still failed to get fox hunting banned. Are you proud to be a member of a party which did that?"
-When Tony Blair was elected, Britain was in a boom period, right wing leaders emerged to lead the unions, and the party, from which the organisational apparatus was used for Blair. If we were fighting inside the unions and the party then we could have shown workers not to vote this shit head in.
-What have the SWP done? What they vote for in parliament, ah shit yeah, the workers dont even turn to you to get elected...to even start making choices...

"And where do you get your information about the high membership turnover of the SWP from?"
-A SWP friend

"The Labour party has no internal democracy at all any more. Kez seems to think the Unions still have some power inside it- where's the block vote these days? Or clause 4 of the Constitution? How many times have we seen Conference vote on an issue then the NEC, or the Leadership, completely reject it?"
-Thats just a plain lie, the constitution clearly states how many votes unions have,and its 50%
-Clause 4 was taken down with help of the unions (who had right wing leadership at the time), so...maybe if SWP were helping us fight in the unions at the time, we wouldnt even be talking about this.

"Last point: one of the earlier posts quoted an article which said we should build a mass movement on our own policies, not those watered down ones of Respect. Well, there's a very simple rejoinder to this statement: where is this mass movement you're supposed to be building? Have you not had enough time yet? If you keep saying you should build it, maybe you should go out and start?"
-Dont worry mate, some of us are

And why do people hate the SWP (not just on internet i may add)? Because your theory is poor, your methodology is poor.
you dont even mention socialism at public meetings, or the term revolution. Its utter bollocks to appease your petit bourgeoise members. Fine by me, just dont call yourself a revolutionary mass party of the workers please, ok?

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

So, the only serious attempt to change the Labour Party from inside failed miserably. The left-wing leader, Michael Foot (no problem with him) also was quickly gotten rid of. You can dress it up in whatever way you like, but it failed, and resulted in the Socialist party losing members at an astounding rate. So, if that failed, what makes you think your attempt will succeed?


-Taking back a few anti-TU legislation
-Bringing in and increasing minimum wage
-New Tuition fees is actually much easier than the current system
-Lifting a million children out of poverty
Okay, I really want other people to come in on this now because this is straight from the manifesto. The small amount of anti-TU legislation you claim to have gotten back is nothing compared to the vast swathes of anti-TU legislation that remain on the statute books. And tuition fees being easier? It directly discriminates against poorer families! How can you say that it's progressive in any way?

The trade union leadership, even though they're more left-wing than before, have still done very little for their own members. They're bureaucrats, pure and simple. Even ex-Communist Derek Simpson has been virtually silent since being elected.


-When Tony Blair was elected, Britain was in a boom period, right wing leaders emerged to lead the unions, and the party, from which the organisational apparatus was used for Blair. If we were fighting inside the unions and the party then we could have shown workers not to vote this shit head in.
Everyone's fault but yours, isn't it? The Labour Party which you love voted in favour of an imperialist war and elected a right-winger as its leader. How dare you claim it's a party of the workers!


"Last point: one of the earlier posts quoted an article which said we should build a mass movement on our own policies, not those watered down ones of Respect. Well, there's a very simple rejoinder to this statement: where is this mass movement you're supposed to be building? Have you not had enough time yet? If you keep saying you should build it, maybe you should go out and start?"
-Dont worry mate, some of us are
Well, where is it? If your theory is correct then we should have had this mass movement by now, but all you can point to is a couple of people won over in your local branch.


And why do people hate the SWP (not just on internet i may add)? Because your theory is poor, your methodology is poor.
you dont even mention socialism at public meetings, or the term revolution. Its utter bollocks to appease your petit bourgeoise members. Fine by me, just dont call yourself a revolutionary mass party of the workers please, ok?
Unlike you, I've been a member of the party I'm seeking to criticise so feel I know a little about it. Every single public meeting I've ever been to which has been organised by the SWP has mentioned socialism. And, again, "our petit-bourgeoise members"? Do you even realise what a hypocrite you are? The Labour Party is a party of the ruling class now! It's full of the petit-bourgeois!

I can't debate this any more. When someone says that tuition fees are a triumph workers should be proud of, then its clear they aren't even prepared for a debate. Do you not think, joining the monolithic Labour Party as a socialist, that its more likely to change you than you are to change it?

[Kez]

Hmm, nobody is trying to take over leadership of Labour, were just trying to get to the workers, something your failing at miserably

"Everyone's fault but yours, isn't it?"
-How the fuck is Blair being elected my fault. I was 12 when he was elected...

"The small amount of anti-TU legislation you claim to have gotten back is nothing compared to the vast swathes of anti-TU legislation that remain on the statute books"
-Yeah, no shit sherlock, if this wasnt the case we wouldnt try to bring Blair down would we?
-You wanted some progressive things, i gave them to you. Why you still moaning?

"And, again, "our petit-bourgeoise members"? Do you even realise what a hypocrite you are?"
-Unlike you ive never claimed Labour is a workers party tho, nevermind a "revolutionary" one! So im not a hypocrit

i suggest you stop using your party hack as a resource and find some information out yourself.

"It directly discriminates against poorer families! How can you say that it's progressive in any way?"
-Because first off the poorest families dont pay
-Secondly it allows the burden of debt to be placed in the future, allowing the student to get a uni degree. You may not know this, but now you pay an upfront fee, something many people cant do.
-Clearly we should have free edducation, and this is what we agitate for.

"Well, where is it? If your theory is correct then we should have had this mass movement by now, but all you can point to is a couple of people won over in your local branch. "
-Wheres our theory say that?
-quit lieing man
-We say that the deeper capitalism goes into trouble, the more people will turn to Labour (as a traditional organisation of the workers), and at the moment, the economy is only stagnating/very slow decrease in economy, not quite a collapse of capitalism yet is it?

On the subject of terminology, every STWC demo i went to, neither socialism nor revolution was mentioned, but i guess this would piss off the mullahs in your organisation.

[h&s]

Kez I understand what you mean about voting labour, but why try and change the leadership, which is virtually impossible in the short-term, and try to get the grass-root Labour supporters to actually vote for a party that represents them instead?

If I thought what you wanted was possible, I would support it, but we need to find a new party that represents what Labour used to.

[James]

not the point at all, point is its quite possible to change leadership while leader is in power.


That was the point though kamo, true thatcher had to step down - but what actually changed, and why? I don't think the leadership actually changed at all, just the face. Thatcher had to step down not because of others, but because she went too far.

The Major incident a few years later on the other hand was an example of how some high up in the party tried to overthrow the leadership - and failed.

Tuition fee's
It directly discriminates against poorer families!


Explain please...

[Kez]

hammer, im all for a new workers party, in fact it is neccessary for a revolution, however, how do we go about to achieve it?

Do we sit on the fringe of the workers movement? Or inside it?
Look at RSDLP (Russian social democratic party) and how Lenin got to workers through that.
Look how militant did it and gained 10,000 members in '89.
I also think it is important in the short term, look how quickly events change things, compare Blairs approval rating pre-war and pre-tuition fees and compare to now, all within one year. We'll see how the party itself deals with Blair with the elections, hopefully Blair will get a thumping nationally and isolate himself.

[Louis Pio]

Here's some pro and con RESPECT views: http://www.workersliberty.org/modules.php?...=thread&order=0 (http://www.workersliberty.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2211&mode=thread&order=0)

I for one can't see RESPECT as an alternative when they try to get muslim votes in what can only be seen as a oppotunistic method.

"In Birmingham, the SWP were directly involved in the removal of local anti-war activists from their elected positions and their substitution by Muslim figures, such as Salma Yaqood, who became chair of the Birmingham Stop the War Coalition. They stopped at nothing to build closer ties with Muslim clerics, even shamefully giving into the demands of the Mosque, that the sexes should be kept separate in meetings. This was all part of their plan to bring the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB) on board and ensure their support for their new electoral adventure."

If this is true the SWP is clearly on a very wrong path

[革命者]

Hi Che-Lives,

The UK is NOT represented by any national party in the most left European party, namely the EUL/NGL (European United Left/Nordic Green Left) and voting is thereby next to futile for changing Europe. But nonetheless i think voting for the Greens is by far the best choice (only in the UK that is).

The Germans should imo vote for the PDS and the French for the PCF.

I am voting SP: http://www.europa.sp.nl/ (Dutch) or www.spectrezine.org (English)

[Postteen]

Hmm.....The communistic party of my country is totally against the Euro-elections! .Actually they're against the European Union in general.I don't really know what i'd vote if i was 18... :unsure:

[h&s]

Where are you from?

[Postteen]

Greece.... :wacko: why?

[h&s]

Just wondering, because that policy is completely different to the communists policy in Britain.
The CPGB want a "united states of europe." (what a shit name!)

[Kez]

no no, both policies are the same

Commuinists are against the EU, because it is a capitalist union, we want a Socialist European Federation, which is union of the workers.

[Postteen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 11:02 AM
no no, both policies are the same

Commuinists are against the EU, because it is a capitalist union, we want a Socialist European Federation, which is union of the workers.
Hmmm....I don't think there're the same because our communistic party firstly doesn't participate in the party of the European Socialists(i it's the only one with the Porugese one).Secondly in our country we have 2 leftish parties and the communistic one 'hates" the other which is not so strict(and it is a member of that european party.)
But of course on the other hand,they both want a Socialist European Federation as Kez said.
The thing is that our comministic party(which is called KKE)Is the strictest in Europe!