Juche? Songun?

[il Commie]

I was visiting the KFA (Korean Friendship Assosiation) website and they kept talking there about Juche and Songun and how these 'eternal philosophies' saved the korean people blah blah blah...

I wanted to know what is Juche and Songun, how it differs from Marxism-Leninism and how come there are non-koreans supporting DPRK ?!

[Louis Pio]

As I see it Juche is a mix of stalinism/maoism and the reactionary kofuche religion/thought.
So it's semi religious, when the old leader died they made of stories about how the birds of the heaven came to pick him up etc.
While I defend the planned economy I have only contempt for such a reactionary ideology as Juche.

[Saint-Just]

Ixabert, someone who posted here formerly, describes some key tenets of Juche:

[On the Creative method, Creative Stand.]

The stand which avers that the popular masses should play the role of transformers in changing the world and carving out their own destiny. Also, the method of adapting Marxism-Leninism to the unique conditions of one's own country.

[On how creative ability is increased]

By strengthening the position and role of the popular masses.

[Consciousness]

An essential feature of man, consciousness, to quote Dear Leader Kim Jong Il, "is an attribute of man who determines all his activities designed to understand and reshape the world and himself."

The following is written by me, Chairman Mao:

Songun is army-centred politics. It says that a socialist country in this era must have a strong military because in the age of imperialism a socialist society is under threat.


‘…[Juche]constitute a brilliant example in adhering to the revolutionary principles of Marxism-Leninism and developing the revolutionary theory of the working class onto a new, higher plane.’ -Kim Jong Il (further quotes are from Kim Jong Il, I have not bothered to put them in italics)

‘the Juche idea expounded the laws which are peculiar to social history.’

Now I will explain some main concepts of Juche. The Juche philosophy says that main is a highest product of the material world, the most complex organism. However, man is different and rises above every other organism because of three factors; Independence (Chajusong), creativity and consciousness. Independence because man in is the master of his world. Creativity because man he can transform the world. Consciousness is presupposed to create independence and creativity.
Man is different in that he is a social being who can form a social collective in which social relations will arise. He gains Chajusong, creativity and consciousness through living in a social collective, developing through social relations. The most important relation being that of class, and throughout history class struggle let the masses gain chajusong, creativity and consciousness. The masses can only achieve their full potential in this state by the overthrow of those who deny these 3 factors that make man progress; those who deny it are the exploitative ruling class.
At the beginning of time chajusong, creativity and consciousness were low, throughout history they developed correspondent to the development of society as they are the driving force behind progression. The realisation of chajusong, creativity and consciousness are the very essence of social progression.

The theory of the "Revolutionary Outlook on the Leader," says that though the masses are the masters of history and revolution, they must organise themselves in the most effective way to bring about the revolution and socialist construction, this is done by creating a party with a leader and necessary command structure to organise the movement . This is given substance by the theory of the "Immortal Socio-Political Body," which says that the Leader, the Party and the masses form one socio-political body which is immortal, and the center, or brain, of this immortal body is the Leader.

To elucidate:
'the party as a political leadership body is inconceivable; separated from the masses, the party cannot lead the revolution and construction to victory.'

'The Juche idea allows to create an indescribable unity between the people’s masses and the leader, so in this way an independent and sovereign state can be built and the people can use their talent and power for their economic benefit.'

‘Socialist ideology develops the masses into independent people who
are conscious of their independence and creative ability, while
reactionary bourgeois ideas reduce them to servants who obey the
domination of capital, to ideological and mental cripples.’

‘[Where]oppression and capital hold sway – the masses’ consciousness
of their independence is suppressed. [By] falsehood and deception,
imperialists and reactionaries benumb the masses’ uncorrupted minds….
This is the very ideological suppression which stops the development
of people’s consciousness of their independence. It is criminal
ideological indoctrination, which forces reactionary ideas on
people.’

‘[Under socialism]Only then can they free themselves once and for all
from the influence and shackles of all kinds of outmoded ideas…. Only
then can everyone develop his individuality, aspirations, wisdom and
talent in an all-round way. Because it is the most revolutionary
ideology and champions and realizes the masses independence,
socialist ideology serves as a weapon for genuine ideological and
human emancipation. It ensures the unlimited development of people’s
ideologies and mental qualities. Socialist ideology is the sum total
of the development of human ideas’

[Faceless]

"Immortal Socio-Political Body," which says that the Leader, the Party and the masses form one socio-political body which is immortal, and the center, or brain, of this immortal body is the Leader.
Juche, as far as I can tell, seems irreconcilable with Marxian thinking. It involves the independant actions of some great leader but surely as such represents the strange inversion of the phonomonen observed by Marx. Before Marx there were great philosophers who saw society as a freeze frame and not the process. As such they did not manage to determine the course of Capitalism to its inevitable end. Marx had the advantage of representing the abstract totality (the whole working class who were capable as being a totality because they have a common goal but the beorgiosie are rarely a capable of class solidarity) and saw things from the perspective of a historical struggle. But Juche represents the opposite where the Revolution is seen as some isolated event. Some of the obvious symptoms of such a lack of historical perspective are "Great Men" history. Did Gravilo Princip cause WWI by himself? I sincerely doubt it!! Did one king ending serfdom bring about Capitalism? Like hell he did!! Will a "Dear Leader" bring this next historical step? ptsch!
For the less than helpful insights of Ixabert, he still hangs around politicsforum.org

[redstar2000]

From a list of 1,200 names that the official North Korean broadcasting station have been used to refer to leader Kim Jong Il since 1974, as reported in the South Korean newspaper The Chosun Ilbo...

Lodestar of the 21st Century
Peerless Leader
Beloved Leader
Great Leader
Dear Leader
Sun of Revolution
Sun of Life
Sun of Hope
Guiding Sun
Sun of Socialism
Sun of Humankind
Fatherly Leader of All Koreans
Great Human Veteran
Matchless Hero Who Rules the World With Virtue
Creator and Symbol of the Good-Ruler Philosophy
Outstanding Political and Military Activist
Great Leader Who Opened A New History
Top Representative of Revolutionary Integrity
Eternal Heart With Great Love And Faith
Marvelous Strategist
Perfect Military Expert
Strategist for Victories
General-like Politician
Best General
Symbol of Unchallenged Victory
World's Best Military Artist
Invincible Commander
Great Master in Philosophy
Master in Literature, Art and Architecture
Genius of Human Music
World's Great Author
Walking Computer Who Surprises Experts
Hero from Heaven

...so what have you done with your life, you miserable wretch!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Hate Is Art]

Walking Computer Who Surprises Experts


Thats pretty cool, do you reckon he has a Department of Names, where they come up with new ones for him. After 1,200 though they could probably just re-cycle old ones and no one would notice.

But maybe they would get shot, for not loving their leader enough.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 09:57 PM
Juche, as far as I can tell, seems irreconcilable with Marxian thinking. It involves the independant actions of some great leader but surely as such represents the strange inversion of the phonomonen observed by Marx. Before Marx there were great philosophers who saw society as a freeze frame and not the process. As such they did not manage to determine the course of Capitalism to its inevitable end. Marx had the advantage of representing the abstract totality (the whole working class who were capable as being a totality because they have a common goal but the beorgiosie are rarely a capable of class solidarity) and saw things from the perspective of a historical struggle. But Juche represents the opposite where the Revolution is seen as some isolated event. Some of the obvious symptoms of such a lack of historical perspective are "Great Men" history. Did Gravilo Princip cause WWI by himself? I sincerely doubt it!! Did one king ending serfdom bring about Capitalism? Like hell he did!! Will a "Dear Leader" bring this next historical step? ptsch!
For the less than helpful insights of Ixabert, he still hangs around politicsforum.org
The meaning of Juche is that the masses are the owners of the revolution and construction are the masses. Juche looks at history from a class perspective and sees class struggle as the most relevant feature of social change. This is entirely in accordance with Marxist theory. Juche is a socialist ideology that uses Marxist philosophy.

That was a churlish comment on Ixabert, you must think yourself to be some kind of genius to imply Ixabert is so mentally immature his comments are 'less than helpful.

[elijahcraig]

Juche has its basis in marxism...it is just horribly veered into hero worship and hardline nationalism, ultra-nationalism like fascist germany. This may have been necessary to keep the country together through all these years, or may have been a result of the conditions of harsh life in the nation through the last century...but it is not something I support or agree with.

[Faceless]

Juche looks at history from a class perspective and sees class struggle as the most relevant feature of social change.
It may use rhetoric on "class perspective" when it looks at history but it hardly has to improvise. However, when it looks at the current situation it ditches everything that Marx may have tought. Class struggle is the most important factor in social change but Juche seems to reckon that the individual leader is as important and that he acts as the "brain". One can only assume that he thus engineers the ending of the class war. You see, it is at the end of history and at the beginning of the present that Juche ceases to recognise dialectics from the totality of the class. What use is Marx's view of history if it is irrelevant to the way forward. Where was the "brain" of bourgeois struggle? Answer that and I will be a follower of Juche!!


Juche is a socialist ideology that uses Marxist philosophy.
I couldn't agree more! It cherry picks the clever sounding bits from the history of class struggle and then makes a botched attempt to say that somehow this wierd and wonderful conclusion is somehow in accodance with this theory. No doubt it also makes use of previous philosopher's acts of genius such as the LTV but it is not consistent in its use of Marxist philosophy. I may agree with a buddhist that there is probably no God but my amalgamation of this philosophy and that philosphy does not make me a Buddhist!! The roots of Juche may be Marxist but it isn't Marxist any more!


That was a churlish comment on Ixabert, you must think yourself to be some kind of genius to imply Ixabert is so mentally immature his comments are 'less than helpful.
Ixabert may be a very clever person! Einstein was clever yet he was God fearing. Just because Einstein was clever I do not follow his lead in Theology.

One thing's true, Ixabert's ideology is based upon flawed theory and since most of his comments are based upon his ideology they aren't that helpful.

[Saint-Just]

It may use rhetoric on "class perspective" when it looks at history but it hardly has to improvise. However, when it looks at the current situation it ditches everything that Marx may have tought. Class struggle is the most important factor in social change but Juche seems to reckon that the individual leader is as important and that he acts as the "brain". One can only assume that he thus engineers the ending of the class war. You see, it is at the end of history and at the beginning of the present that Juche ceases to recognise dialectics from the totality of the class. What use is Marx's view of history if it is irrelevant to the way forward. Where was the "brain" of bourgeois struggle? Answer that and I will be a follower of Juche!!

Juche does not suppose that the leader is more important than the masses. It says that a leader and an elite can realise the consciousness of the masses. This is not Marxist, but Leninist. However, much of Juche is based on Marxism although it has parts of its thought that Marx did not write about.


Ixabert may be a very clever person! Einstein was clever yet he was God fearing. Just because Einstein was clever I do not follow his lead in Theology.

One thing's true, Ixabert's ideology is based upon flawed theory and since most of his comments are based upon his ideology they aren't that helpful.

Every person gives their view from a particular ideological perspective, that does not make their view unhelpful.

[Louis Pio]

Lodestar of the 21st Century
Peerless Leader
Beloved Leader
Great Leader
Dear Leader
Sun of Revolution
Sun of Life
Sun of Hope
Guiding Sun
Sun of Socialism
Sun of Humankind
Fatherly Leader of All Koreans
Great Human Veteran
Matchless Hero Who Rules the World With Virtue
Creator and Symbol of the Good-Ruler Philosophy
Outstanding Political and Military Activist
Great Leader Who Opened A New History
Top Representative of Revolutionary Integrity
Eternal Heart With Great Love And Faith
Marvelous Strategist
Perfect Military Expert
Strategist for Victories
General-like Politician
Best General
Symbol of Unchallenged Victory
World's Best Military Artist
Invincible Commander
Great Master in Philosophy
Master in Literature, Art and Architecture
Genius of Human Music
World's Great Author
Walking Computer Who Surprises Experts
Hero from Heaven


LOL :D

As I said it's semi-religion.
This cultism is absurd and anti marxist.
Chairman Mao to use a favorite phrase of ours it seems you have only optained a bourgios consciousness since you support it.
Btw isn't the North Korean idea for unification "one country, two systems"?

[Saint-Just]

Chairman Mao to use a favorite phrase of ours it seems you have only optained a bourgios consciousness since you support it.
Btw isn't the North Korean idea for unification "one country, two systems"?

No, actually the reason I support it is because I have a revolutionary consciousness. I can see how the society is different from a capitalist society and how it operates a socialist system of society.

The idea of unification first put forward by Kim Il Sung (and still sought after by the DPRK) is a 'one country, two systems' idea.

[Louis Pio]

No, actually the reason I support it is because I have a revolutionary consciousness. I can see how the society is different from a capitalist society and how it operates a socialist system of society.


Now if you took the marxist point of view on this you would make a critical assesment, North Korea has features that is socialist and some that is clearly not. So unconditional support is not marxist. Even you should be able to see that.


The idea of unification first put forward by Kim Il Sung (and still sought after by the DPRK) is a 'one country, two systems' idea.

So they actually say that capitalism is ok for south korea? Hmm this becomes more and more crazy...

[Saint-Just]

Now if you took the marxist point of view on this you would make a critical assesment, North Korea has features that is socialist and some that is clearly not. So unconditional support is not marxist. Even you should be able to see that.

It depends on what features and how many features you consider not socialist.


So they actually say that capitalism is ok for south korea? Hmm this becomes more and more crazy...

Yes, but realistically they are not going to be able to force socialism on South Korea. Their hope is that they can become stronger in the North if they are united with the South. Or perhaps they secretly hope to destroy the southern political system.

[Louis Pio]

The only way forward would be for them to unite on a socialist basis. The problem for the north is that their kind of socialism is quite backwards. They lack workers control etc etc.
So if they unite with South Korea the south korean system would win. Question is whether this is understood by the ruling clique in the North and they want to uphold their priviliges in a capitalist society. Or if they actually are stupid enough to think it can be done.

[Enver Hoxha]

Whilist I would be dubious as to the accuracy of that South Korean newspaper it is true that their is a frankly ridiculious cult going around of the Kims.

The problem with Juche is that it's aim is not any form of Socialism or Communism, it's goal is purely national-reunification. This should be upheld and supported by all Marxists of whatever type, Korea is one and U$ Imperialists should be kicked out. Anyway why they are still there is very dubious, afterall truce talks in 1953 said all foriegn soldiers should leave, the last Chinese troops left the North in 1958. :angry:

That's why any ''sources' from pro-U$ elements should be taken with a pinch of salt at the most. DPRK is not the hell hole it's portrayed as, even the bourgesie journalists admit this when they actually go there. The reports tend to show a children just like in any other nation going to school, fairgrounds, TV's, kids playing football, your average citizen living in a house which I'm sure many folks in Calcuta would love and frankly the only thing that would make me suspect of somesought of brainwashing would be the strange fad for Elvis they have other there.

But I dont think we should be having illussions of any sought of Socialism in Korea. It never was and with Juche it never will be. Kim II Sung never believed in class struggle and favoured permanent alliance with the National-bourgesie, now Kim Jong II takes that to it's inevitable next step by equating Socialism with national-reunfication. That's what you get with all this need for the Great Leader crap (unlike other Communists who ridiculed it Kim Jong II openly praises a cult around him), no faith in the masses and in particular working classes.

Also in 1992 they actually got rid of any remaining elements or references to Marx and Lenin in their constitution. Now they give tours to Neo-Nazis.

[Osman Ghazi]

Juche does not suppose that the leader is more important than the masses.

Oh, so I guess the 'matchless hero who rules the world with virtue' is on the same level as the common man eh? Very plausable. Ya. Sure. Really.