Initial impressions

[Biggoggs]

Hi all,

Firstly, I'm not trying to troll. I'm not a political scientist, in fact, I'm rather new to politics outside capitalism, and havn't researched Communism to a massive degree. I've come to a few conclusions I have so far which I invite you to comment on, and I apologise for any misinterpretations I have.

Violence. Even flicking through threads here, a lot of the threads seem to be of same `passion' of an angsty teenager. Being constantly hateful isn't healthy.

Anti-religion. Religion will always be around. Someone will always stare at the skies and start some sort of cult, or continue practising. A pro-Communism group would be absolutely massacred by various religious groups, unless of course, at least 90% of the population was already pro-Communism and fought against them. Those `true' to a religion would rather die than renounce their own religion, as you probably know.

Classless societies. I'm all for supporting the homeless etc, but Communism doesn't seem to change anything as far as `bums' (ie those too lazy to work) or `mass murderers' go. Just that if you have something that everyone else doesn't have, you get headhunted.

Anti-intellectual. It seems to be heavily based on `the worker'. If someone spends years learning a particular trade, when it comes to actually working, they have the same chances as everyone else. Some people are intelligent, some people are `gifted' more in the muscular sense- It's simple genetics. What happes to someone mentally & physically disabled in Communism?

Anti-specialisation. A specialised engineer will always out-engineer a handyman. If that engineer wanted plumbing done, he'd(/she'd) call a specialised plumber. Fits like a puzzle.

This is more of a question, but how would, say, the information technology sector, or even the internet, work under communism?

I don't mean to be rude, but in being a `true' Communist, it seems you possess the same `qualities' of those religious extremists of yore you dislike so much...


Thanks for your time, that's all I can think of at the moment.

[Hawker]

I don't mean to be rude, but in being a `true' Communist, it seems you possess the same `qualities' of those religious extremists of yore you dislike so much...

I agree with you,I do think that most people here treat communism as a religion.Communism is an idea not a belief,we must remember that,and an idea can be changed to fit certain conditions,but a belief,that's something harder to change.

[Osman Ghazi]

Violence. Even flicking through threads here, a lot of the threads seem to be of same `passion' of an angsty teenager. Being constantly hateful isn't healthy.


Very true and I know a lot of people who are communists 'just for the revolution' as it were. What you have to understand however, is that the violence is simply the means to an end, the end being a better world, of course.


Anti-religion. Religion will always be around. Someone will always stare at the skies and start some sort of cult, or continue practising. A pro-Communism group would be absolutely massacred by various religious groups, unless of course, at least 90% of the population was already pro-Communism and fought against them. Those `true' to a religion would rather die than renounce their own religion, as you probably know.


Not necessarily true. Making blanket statements like 'religion will always be around' is very tricky. Can you pinpoint the exact moment that religion started? When we were monkeys, did we have religion? When we were australopithicus, did we have religion? It's hard to say, but haven't always had it so its kind of hard to say that we will always have it. The die-hards plan to die for their religion and we plan to hold them to it.


Classless societies. I'm all for supporting the homeless etc, but Communism doesn't seem to change anything as far as `bums' (ie those too lazy to work) or `mass murderers' go. Just that if you have something that everyone else doesn't have, you get headhunted.


Well, the homeless aren't all necessarily 'too lazy', though there may be an elelment that is. As far as mass murderers go well, they are kind of hard to predict now aren't they? I don't know about that head-hunting comment, mostly because it just doesn't make sense for everyone to have the same thing. People will always want different things, so I don't think that's true.


Anti-intellectual. It seems to be heavily based on `the worker'. If someone spends years learning a particular trade, when it comes to actually working, they have the same chances as everyone else. Some people are intelligent, some people are `gifted' more in the muscular sense- It's simple genetics. What happes to someone mentally & physically disabled in Communism?


Well. I'd hardly call a tradesman an 'intellectual'. A tradesman, since he merely works at the means of production is actually a worker. Communism in fact relies on the differences between people to thrive. Ideally, in a Commuist society, people would work at things because they want to. As for the disabled, well if even our dog-eat-dog capitalist society can look after them, we certainly can!


Anti-specialisation. A specialised engineer will always out-engineer a handyman. If that engineer wanted plumbing done, he'd(/she'd) call a specialised plumber. Fits like a puzzle.


Again, communism actually advocates specialization because it is a) more efficient and b)because it allows people to choose what they want to do.

[canikickit]

Being constantly hateful isn't healthy.

If you look at the world, and are angered by what you see, it is difficult not to become angry after a time. Anger and passion are necessary if we truly want to change the political system significantly. I understand your aversion to violence and respect the fact that their can be a lot of "teen angst" on these forums, but I believe that to be a symptom of capitalist society's draining characteristics.


Religion will always be around.

Says you. :)
I thinnk a good way of putting things into perspective is to look at Greek mythology, for example. Essentially Zeus, Poseidon, Aphrodite and so on are the ancient equivelent of the modern western God, father of Jesus and all that Jazz. Their temples are mere releics of history, with no religious connotations at all. The majority of people view them as interesting characters in uniquely styled stories.

People will forget about God eventually too and reminise about the ridiculousness of a man going up on top of mountain to get ten rules etched in stone.

Religion is on the decline and I am confident that people will turn to more rational explanations in the future.


Classless societies. I'm all for supporting the homeless etc, but Communism doesn't seem to change anything as far as `bums' (ie those too lazy to work) or `mass murderers' go. Just that if you have something that everyone else doesn't have, you get headhunted.

To be honest, I'm not too sure what you're trying to say here.
I believe that people are too lazy to work because the only inspiration we are given to work is to get money and acquire more "stuff". Under capitalism our lives are encouraged to be validated by our possessions. It is necessary to be greedy under capitalism to prosper, one must think of oneself.

In a communist society people will validate their lives through building their lives. By progressing and furthering themselves and teking responsibility for what goes on around them and the infrastructure which influences their lifestyles.


Anti-intellectual.

I admire intelligence a great deal, probably more than any other trait.
The worker is paramount of course. I include 85-85% of people under that umbrella, "the worker". The non-workers will not be lined up against the wall come the revolution. It will merely be the case that the possibility to belong to the bourgeois class will not exist because society will not be structered as now.


If someone spends years learning a particular trade, when it comes to actually working, they have the same chances as everyone else. Some people are intelligent, some people are `gifted' more in the muscular sense- It's simple genetics.

Again, I'm not too sure what you're getting at. However I believe you may be referring to, say a doctor, who studies for years and puts in effort, why should he get as much money as a streetsweeper, for example (maybe you do not mean this at all).

It is my opinion that the effort put in by a doctor is no more rigerous or respectable than the effort the streetsweeper may have put in for years working different jobs, trying to feed himself and his family. What makes the doctors achievment greater?


What happes to someone mentally & physically disabled in Communism?

The same thing as happens today to an extent, only better of course, in my opinion. They will find their place in society and settle in. If they need care, their will be facilities provided, as is necessary. What else would we, or anyone (sane), propose.


Anti-specialisation. A specialised engineer will always out-engineer a handyman. If that engineer wanted plumbing done, he'd(/she'd) call a specialised plumber. Fits like a puzzle.

Sure, but why should we focus all our lives on one career? Surely it stunts your growth as a person, it lacks deviation and doesn't encourage exploration. However, as you said above, people will excell in certain domains and when people excell in something they tend to enjoy it and they will stick with it.

Welcome to the forum.

[Y2A]

I remember when I first came here and use to try to rationalize with these people. Then I realize that most were just suburban kids rebeling against the jocks at their suburban school and thus gave up. After a few posters call you an evil AmeriKKKan U.$ killer, your attitude will change aswell.

Welcome to the board.

[New Tolerance]

Hey, welcome to the board.

Just as a note, the left-wingers here are ideologically divided. You got everything from Marxist-Leninists, to anarchists, to democractic socialists to social democrats, they hold different beliefs, but they could all be called "communists" (to a certain degree at least) so please don't over generalize when you address us as "communists" (we are fighting with ourselves all the time).

The things you've listed seems to refer to some form of practical Marxist-Leninism. Remember that's just one of the "communist" ideologies. So please don't jump to conclusions about how some "communists" are saying one thing and doing something else. Because those people talking may not be the kind of Marxist-Leninists you have described.

Peace

[Maynard]

Welcome. It's also good you made the post in a non threatening way and are at least trying to learn something.


Violence. Even flicking through threads here, a lot of the threads seem to be of same `passion' of an angsty teenager. Being constantly hateful isn't healthy.

I agree, it's somewhat amusing people talking about going to the jungle to shoot a few cappies. They just imagine themselves as Che or something. I think, seeing all the things in the world, it's hard not to get angry at some things but it's by no mean constant for me. There will always be a few who hijack a sub culture, just to be alternative, as you'll find in other areas music or what have you.



Religion will always be around. Someone will always stare at the skies and start some sort of cult, or continue practising. A pro-Communism group would be absolutely massacred by various religious groups, unless of course, at least 90% of the population was already pro-Communism and fought against them. Those `true' to a religion would rather die than renounce their own religion, as you probably know.

It's hard to judge how long religion will be around for. It may live on, in some way or form for a long time but I can see , at least, religion is losing it's relevance in a lot of advanced capitalist countries. In Australia and Denmark, at least, I have noticed this, particularly in the youth. Many may say they believe in god but have not read a sentence from the bible. I think personally, this will be repeated in a lot of other countries. But there is no way, in a communist society , that private practicing of religion could be stopped.


I'm all for supporting the homeless etc, but Communism doesn't seem to change anything as far as `bums' (ie those too lazy to work) or `mass murderers' go. Just that if you have something that everyone else doesn't have, you get headhunted.

I think the concept of the lazy bum will be diminished, I think currently, those who are unemployed for a long time, get discouraged after awhile after not being able to find work. In a communist society at least, there will be work for everyone to be done and they'll be raised in a environment , which encourages community participation. As for headhunting..that doesn't happen now, in most cases, I don't think it'll change, as most people in such a society would not determine their worth by material possiesons.



It seems to be heavily based on `the worker'. If someone spends years learning a particular trade, when it comes to actually working, they have the same chances as everyone else. Some people are intelligent, some people are `gifted' more in the muscular sense- It's simple genetics. What happes to someone mentally & physically disabled in Communism?

Well, the majority of people in the world are workers, so that is logical. Politicans aim all of their rhetoric at the worker as well. But a communist society would look to capitalise on these differences, with the more intellecual inclined following career paths most suited to them and the muscular bound following career paths suited too them.
The mentally and physically disable will be looked after, just as by anyone else would be and if they can find some sort of work which can be done, they can also do that.


I don't mean to be rude, but in being a `true' Communist, it seems you possess the same `qualities' of those religious extremists of yore you dislike so much...

How so ? We advocate our ideas just like any other group, just as democrats or republicans do. We may be strong in our beliefs but I'm personally expose myself to other ideas all the time.

[Biggoggs]

Thanks for the replies everyone,


Very true and I know a lot of people who are communists 'just for the revolution' as it were. What you have to understand however, is that the violence is simply the means to an end, the end being a better world, of course.

Violence seems to have momentum, where violence was used to bring in a government, it `echos through the corridors' of the government itself, and influences what they do. For instance, opressing a particular minority with violence to stop them from hurting everyone else snowballs into, well, take a look at the U.S. I find it hard to comprehend the idea that violence will stop `dead in it's tracks' after a new government is established.


I agree, it's somewhat amusing people talking about going to the jungle to shoot a few cappies. They just imagine themselves as Che or something. I think, seeing all the things in the world, it's hard not to get angry at some things but it's by no mean constant for me. There will always be a few who hijack a sub culture, just to be alternative, as you'll find in other areas music or what have you.

I guess this `hijack of subculture' wore off on me. Honestly, I pictured the `diehard Communists' as Nazi-like clans of extremists who want to overthrow anything. As for the `it's hard not to get angry at something' common I noticed, that's purely a psychology thing, and probably wandering from the topic of `politics'. Anger isn't caused by corrupt politics, it simply encourages it. It's entirely a perspective thing- You choose to be angry.



I think the concept of the lazy bum will be diminished, I think currently, those who are unemployed for a long time, get discouraged after awhile after not being able to find work. In a communist society at least, there will be work for everyone to be done and they'll be raised in a environment , which encourages community participation. As for headhunting..that doesn't happen now, in most cases, I don't think it'll change, as most people in such a society would not determine their worth by material possiesons.

I don't have qualifications `on-paper' for psychology, but I think it's obvious that there will always be a minor percentage who don't want to do anything. As for determining worth, it's an erroneous topic. `Greed' (for lack of a better word) I think is a human characteristic, possibly spawned by either raw human emotion, or society itself, as you point out is prevelant in Capitalism.



Sure, but why should we focus all our lives on one career? Surely it stunts your growth as a person, it lacks deviation and doesn't encourage exploration. However, as you said above, people will excell in certain domains and when people excell in something they tend to enjoy it and they will stick with it.

Isn't this also apparent in Capitalist societies? I'd guess that 99% of people change their `career' at least once in their life. How does Communism differ?



How so ? We advocate our ideas just like any other group, just as democrats or republicans do. We may be strong in our beliefs but I'm personally expose myself to other ideas all the time.

I'll only try to touch on this briefly, but put it this way; Religions [improperly] are imposed in, and keep a strong hold. Over time, they fade, and Communism comes in with workers wielding pitchforks and burning anti-Communism etc. Over time, this fades, and the whole thing repeats itself all over again in a nasty revolution.

I'm still not sure how in a Communist society, intellectuals would fit in. My initial question wandered, I apologise. How would those doing jobs without physical `wealth' work? If someone researches a cure for cancer, how would he `earn'?

As for religion, I still don't think it'd fade out. `Religion' would turn into the `evil' word that Communism seems to be in today's Capitalist society. I'm not sure when it was `created', but I'm certain it was a long, long time ago. It seems that no matter what form of government societies have had, there has always been some form of religion. In the same way that you can `impose' religion on a group of people, there's always a percentage that choose not to believe it, and it works vice-versa as atheism. Not believing in anything takes just as much `effort' as one that does.


Thanks for the welcome- I'm learning quite a bit.


Cheers

[The idealist]

Welcome to the board.

Trust me, you will meet a lot of different people on this board.

There are the "Die-hards", the "Easily-impressed", the "Rebels", The folks that are in it for the girls, those who are genuinly angry with the way the world is, and the I-don't-really-know-what-it-is-but-it-sounds-cool people.

And Everybody is at least two of these.

Happy discussing and good luck (you will need it :P )

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 2 2004, 11:33 PM
Very true and I know a lot of people who are communists 'just for the revolution' as it were. What you have to understand however, is that the violence is simply the means to an end, the end being a better world, of course.
Then why is Cuba, and every other communist country stuck in a state of perpetual revolution ?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 12:17 AM
Religion is on the decline and I am confident that people will turn to more rational explanations in the future.
From what I can tell, people aren't abandoning religion. It's more a case of "new religion replaces old", the most popular modern religion being environmentalism.

[canikickit]

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 3 2004, 03:11 PM
From what I can tell, people aren't abandoning religion. It's more a case of "new religion replaces old", the most popular modern religion being environmentalism.
I'm sorry, environmentalism isn't a religion.
Any other examples?

[Osman Ghazi]

Then why is Cuba, and every other communist country stuck in a state of perpetual revolution ?

Does your brain not work or something? How many times do we have to tell you that there has never been a communist country before you'll believe it? Secondly, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A COMMUNIST COUNTRY! It is rather like the 'state capitalism' roundabout that we keep getting drawn into. It is a contradiction of terms.

Let's use some logic:

1. Communism is stateless.
2. Cuba is a state.
3. Therefore, Cuba is not communist.

See how easy it is?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:15 PM
I'm sorry, environmentalism isn't a religion.
That's your opinion.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 4 2004, 02:09 PM
Does your brain not work or something? How many times do we have to tell you that there has never been a communist country before you'll believe it? Secondly, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A COMMUNIST COUNTRY! It is rather like the 'state capitalism' roundabout that we keep getting drawn into. It is a contradiction of terms.

Let's use some logic:

1. Communism is stateless.
2. Cuba is a state.
3. Therefore, Cuba is not communist.

See how easy it is?
And as you describe it, there is never going to be one either. It's wishful thinking to believe that dispensing with individual rights is going to produce a stateless society.

[Biggoggs]

Well, it seems my first point is being brought to light. It's nice to see my questions have spawned some debate, I guess.

Forgive me for being naive, but if communism doesn't have a `government', how are `big' decisions made? How would international trade or politics work (would there be a `noticeboard' system implemented)?


Cheers

[canikickit]

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 4 2004, 04:09 PM
That's your opinion.
Of course it's my opinion. Why the hell else would I say it?
How would you define environmentalism as a religion?